EPTSC2 in Proleague? - Page 33
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imEnex
Canada500 Posts
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Kring
Portugal70 Posts
On October 20 2011 08:59 gen.Sun wrote: Facepalm. You are an idiot. Im glad that you answer like that to a simple conversation. Pretty funny actually. Proof? There is no proof. You can argue fake numbers anywhere. Just common sense, and TL presence. How many people watch broodwar finals in the tl posted streams ? 1 thousand, a bit more, i watch them. How many people watch mlg/gsl right now? Go check the sites/reports, im not bothering to search exact numbers and show them to people that don´t understand that sc2 was released not much more than 1 year ago, and its bigger than BW by far. Are you really thinking that kespa events IN THIS DAY have more viewers than sc2? Please... be realistic. And you can say all you want, i´ve seen this with a bazilion other games and sequels. Quake 2 was released people went all elitist, saying that quake 1 was the better game. Thats not what im -saying here. Im talking money. And i like sc2 more, bw was good while it lasted. | ||
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hmmm...
632 Posts
i really hope the korean spectators will show that bw will be much more popular than sc2 even into the far future. as a game, bw really is a better and harder game than sc2, it's probably the closest game we have to an actual sport that can last ages. honestly, i believe skill ceiling is one of the most important qualities of a sport...obviously. people consider tennis a true sport: they look at professional tennis players in awe because they know it would require a lifetime of training and dedication to reach the level of these guys. contrast that with a computer game: one can simply train like a madman and if they have the talent, they could probably become a "progamer". sc2, and EVEN bw, are "sports" with boundaries to attaining pro level that are much lower than a sport like tennis are football. yet even so, the boundaries to attaining pro level in bw is still much higher than sc2. at least in bw, there are moments when specatators can somewhat gape in awe when bisu does impossible reaver micro or w/e and wonder, "how does he do that?" alluding to my tennis example. these kinds of moments don't hit me very often in sc2 | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
SC1 will keep its prime-time slots, as it's obviously the most popular spectator e-sport in Korea. SC2 will play 2nd banana for now while OGN gauge its ratings. The future of both sports will depend, again, on ratings. If OGN and Kespa find more money in SC2, they'll switch. But before then, BW is still the cash cow. Even a diminishing BW scene is much larger than SC2 right now. To me its best that SC2 fans hope like hell that BW continues to prosper. Because if BW fails too quickly, the transition to SC2 from fans may not happen in South Korea. But if SC2 is given time to get tweaked and become stable(perhaps after all 3 games have been released), then it could be a smooth transition from BW to SC2. | ||
ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1688 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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zerglingrodeo
United States910 Posts
Also, I'm a long-time BW fan turned SC2 fan. Whenever I wander into the BW forum and see all of the angry old BW purists defying the inevitable death of that beautiful game it makes me sad. T_T | ||
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Gevna
France2332 Posts
A lot of us appreciated BW for several reasons. 1. It had a really high skill cap (so winning gave you the most badass feeling in the world). This meant that automining didn't exist, hotkeys were super important, and macroing and microing took a lot of effort. In SC2, the skill cap is lower and as a result, the feeling of badassery disappears. 2. The races were dynamic and interesting. Each one of them had different dynamics that made them special. In SC2, it's pretty much the same: summon a ball of units and attack. Whoever wins the swings end up winning. I'd elaborate more, but I don't think I really need to. 3. Skills required skills. People would scream "plaguuuuuu!!!!" or "STORMMMUUUUU" or "MINE MINE MINES" because people would plague amazingly, place storms in the most critical of places, and mine up in a clever way, that it showed that it required great foresight and skill to do. In SC2, it's spam the hotkey with your templar, press the T button and just press your mouse a few times. Same thing with infestors and most other spell units. (this kind of goes with point one, but I felt like it deserved its separate part). 4. SC2 visuals are bad (as in actually trying to watch the game, not graphics). In BW, the visuals looked awesome because you could clearly see battles (even with less graphic appeal). In SC2, everything tightens into a ball. The only thing you see is the stim, or the blink, or the banelings. There's nothing much after that. 5. SC2 units are dumb. We feel the marauder is a dumb unit, or the stalker is a retarded unit, or the infestor will never replace the defiler. Hellions are dumb. Medivacs don't make sense. This game is just filled with units that we don't like. These are only some reasons why. SO yeah. Pick whichever one, and you get a good combo of why we don't like SC2. Remember that sc2 is only 1y.o. There are many patches, 2 extentions and a lot of improvements coming. Actualy sc2 isn't figured totally out even by proplayers. Metagame change so fast, unit or spell are discovered etc... Sc2 need time like bw. For exemple, I don't know pro players with perfect mechanics, so before talking skill cap, that would be a great thing to have some players who really master sc2's mechanic. APM is lower in sc2 ? So it's a great opportunity to developp a multitask from hell. Even if mechanics are simpler, there is always something to do in a game. Sc2 is evolving so fast, a game from one year or 6 months ago doesn't look like a today's games at all. All these things need time, and will evolve as well as in bw. | ||
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sour_eraser
Canada932 Posts
On October 20 2011 09:19 Kring wrote: Im glad that you answer like that to a simple conversation. Pretty funny actually. Proof? There is no proof. You can argue fake numbers anywhere. Just common sense, and TL presence. How many people watch broodwar finals in the tl posted streams ? 1 thousand, a bit more, i watch them. How many people watch mlg/gsl right now? Go check the sites/reports, im not bothering to search exact numbers and show them to people that don´t understand that sc2 was released not much more than 1 year ago, and its bigger than BW by far. Are you really thinking that kespa events IN THIS DAY have more viewers than sc2? Please... be realistic. And you can say all you want, i´ve seen this with a bazilion other games and sequels. Quake 2 was released people went all elitist, saying that quake 1 was the better game. Thats not what im -saying here. Im talking money. And i like sc2 more, bw was good while it lasted. Please give us proof that MLG had more viewer than PL Final Otherwise GTFO troll | ||
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gen.Sun
United States539 Posts
On October 20 2011 09:19 Kring wrote: Im glad that you answer like that to a simple conversation. Pretty funny actually. Proof? There is no proof. You can argue fake numbers anywhere. Just common sense, and TL presence. How many people watch broodwar finals in the tl posted streams ? 1 thousand, a bit more, i watch them. How many people watch mlg/gsl right now? Go check the sites/reports, im not bothering to search exact numbers and show them to people that don´t understand that sc2 was released not much more than 1 year ago, and its bigger than BW by far. Are you really thinking that kespa events IN THIS DAY have more viewers than sc2? Please... be realistic. And you can say all you want, i´ve seen this with a bazilion other games and sequels. Quake 2 was released people went all elitist, saying that quake 1 was the better game. Thats not what im -saying here. Im talking money. And i like sc2 more, bw was good while it lasted. Who gives a shit about TL stream viewers? Possibly 1.2 million people watched the PL finals live on TV. Go away. | ||
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Philo
United States337 Posts
On October 20 2011 09:19 Kring wrote: Im glad that you answer like that to a simple conversation. Pretty funny actually. Proof? There is no proof. You can argue fake numbers anywhere. Just common sense, and TL presence. How many people watch broodwar finals in the tl posted streams ? 1 thousand, a bit more, i watch them. How many people watch mlg/gsl right now? Go check the sites/reports, im not bothering to search exact numbers and show them to people that don´t understand that sc2 was released not much more than 1 year ago, and its bigger than BW by far. Are you really thinking that kespa events IN THIS DAY have more viewers than sc2? Please... be realistic. And you can say all you want, i´ve seen this with a bazilion other games and sequels. Quake 2 was released people went all elitist, saying that quake 1 was the better game. Thats not what im -saying here. Im talking money. And i like sc2 more, bw was good while it lasted. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=257268 Lets give a conservative estimate and say 200,000 South Koreans aged 16-19 watched 10-11 Proleague Finals. Now compare the amount of people who watch Proleague through the week to the guys watching GSL every night. Now ask yourself this question: R U DUMB? | ||
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gen.Sun
United States539 Posts
On October 20 2011 09:19 Kring wrote: Im glad that you answer like that to a simple conversation. Pretty funny actually. Proof? There is no proof. You can argue fake numbers anywhere. Just common sense, and TL presence. How many people watch broodwar finals in the tl posted streams ? 1 thousand, a bit more, i watch them. How many people watch mlg/gsl right now? Go check the sites/reports, im not bothering to search exact numbers and show them to people that don´t understand that sc2 was released not much more than 1 year ago, and its bigger than BW by far. Are you really thinking that kespa events IN THIS DAY have more viewers than sc2? Please... be realistic. And you can say all you want, i´ve seen this with a bazilion other games and sequels. Quake 2 was released people went all elitist, saying that quake 1 was the better game. Thats not what im -saying here. Im talking money. And i like sc2 more, bw was good while it lasted. Who gives a shit about TL stream viewers? Possibly 1.2 million people watched the PL finals live on TV. Go Away troll. | ||
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Doraemon
Australia14949 Posts
On October 20 2011 09:19 Kring wrote: Im glad that you answer like that to a simple conversation. Pretty funny actually. Proof? There is no proof. You can argue fake numbers anywhere. Just common sense, and TL presence. How many people watch broodwar finals in the tl posted streams ? 1 thousand, a bit more, i watch them. How many people watch mlg/gsl right now? Go check the sites/reports, im not bothering to search exact numbers and show them to people that don´t understand that sc2 was released not much more than 1 year ago, and its bigger than BW by far. Are you really thinking that kespa events IN THIS DAY have more viewers than sc2? Please... be realistic. And you can say all you want, i´ve seen this with a bazilion other games and sequels. Quake 2 was released people went all elitist, saying that quake 1 was the better game. Thats not what im -saying here. Im talking money. And i like sc2 more, bw was good while it lasted. sigh.... User was warned for this post | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On October 20 2011 08:59 magnaflow wrote: I'm not very familiar with kespa or the broodwar scene. I just have a few questions that I would like answered if anyone is so kind to do so. What were the foreign broodwar tournaments like? Did Koreans ever come over to complete like they do now? There weren't any. A foreigner named Grr....dominated BW at launch, and then Boxer came along and that was that. Legionnaire won a few games in 2005, I think, but it was basically all Korea, all the time. There were no foreign tournaments except WCG, which were basically Koreans playing around with whoever from the Ukraine showed up or whatever. Would Kespa intervene with the growth of SC2 globally and kind of shut the Korean teams in Korea, and shut the Foreign teams out? Hard to say. I'm inclined to think KeSPA will try to make SC2 all Korea, but now that we have a handful of foreign SC2 players of renown winning money in the west, it's hard to say if they'd be successful. Would Korean players still have the opportunities to come to foreign tournaments or would Kespa prevent them from doing so? KeSPA would prevent. The way they treated SC2 in the past, there's no doubt in my mind they'd try to kill the foreign scene. Did broodwar teams make their own decisions or did everything have to go through Kespa for approval? It's hard to say how much KeSPA does unofficially, but Artosis occasionally implies KeSPA mandates players' practice schedules, so probably not all that much freedom. On October 20 2011 09:19 hmmm... wrote: if kespa does go into sc2, that will be a good thing for sc2 imo. as much as kespa is hated, they do provide structure to the scene while also bringing in huge conglomerate sponsors in korea through their contacts. Their structure. i really hope the korean spectators will show that bw will be much more popular than sc2 even into the far future. I'm pretty sure KeSPA does too. That's why I want Blizz to be sponsoring the 8th team. A little leverage to keep the KeSPAcrats in line. | ||
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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gen.Sun
United States539 Posts
On October 20 2011 09:34 Phyrigian wrote: china had 3 million watching in restreams, from what i've heard. If you're talking about the screenshot that floated around a few weeks ago that's not accurate, that's the total views not the live viewers count. | ||
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Rinrun
Canada3509 Posts
On October 20 2011 09:25 ImbaTosS wrote: Damn.. more community news stuff. Shit. /ignore. Yeah I know- wait what? Community News ain't a tabloid. I'm not sure how I feel about this piece of news, but I'll definitely be on the sidelines listening in. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
1. The ambivalance usage of Reaver that it can go either hilarious or epic but instead we got Collosus which requires minimal micro compare to the shuttle/reaver counterpart. 2. Lurkers that required much careful micro with Dark Swarm over the top 3. Speaking of Dark Swarm, where is that? They completely got rid of Dark Swarm which standardized regular play (see GGplay, sAviOr, ZerO's defiler usage), defilers were lethal when carefull utilized but also have the weakness of it being easily killed (much like Reavers have their downside). 4. Vultures.....we got helions? Come on man, that unit is pretty much useless with the gimmicky of spitting out fire. And Spider Mines. Did Blizz watch ANY BW progames? Mines are what define Mech plays. 5. Mutalisk stack, which was the hallmark of a good Zerg player. As a Zerg player, it pained me to see Mutas not being to work as well it use to. 6. Proper bio, as in Medics and Marines. Again if you watch any ZvT and no not Fantasy's lol you would see great Bio control from Flash in that game vs NeoGSoulkey, that was just amazing control. You see where Im getting at? Blizzard took away nearly EVERYTHING that made BW....Brood War. They took away the definition of each matchup and added what? Uninspiring units (not saying that every new units in the sequels are boring), units that are great all round. In BW, you can see that for those aforementioned units, there is also some weakness in it and it up to the players to capitalize on them that make you think “Can he pull this off?” Blizzard need to bring back what defined BW and with added new and interesting units, now let’s look at the good stuff that Blizzard have added. 1. Roaches ability to crawl while burrowed; now that’s creativity and it feel very much Zerg in term of sneakiness. That adds into the overall gameplay. Cool but not OP 2. Stalkers, I always wondered why Protoss didn’t have the power to teleport single units at time. Add depth to the story and drives different use of Dragoon and Zergs have to utilize every units in mobility vs Protoss 3. SCVs ability to build Thor (old spell but still give credit to the team). Now that’s just genius. Seriously fits Terran’s theme perfectly in bringing the ultimate weapon of their arsenal\ 4. Automine + MBS, when SC2’s Wikipedia first wrote that, I was ecstatic because they don’t add anything strategically in BW but just make one extra thing to do. I believe that mind > mechanics (EAPM > APM) My initial expectation for SC2 was that they would keep the key elements of Brood War in general matchup (ZvT, PvT, ZvP) but with more vibrant tools to work with. Like I can go with the usual Medics and Marines but there will be more combos and other race will have some nasty tricks up their sleeves too. To keep the dynamics of Brood War with a dash of fresh fancy visuals so that veterans can still enjoy the same game while bringing new blood into the gamy me. I fully WANTED players to switch to the newly released anticipated ‘dream game’ and unite as one huge community that is ready for world domination (kekeke). Then one drama after another start to unfold with the Blizzard vs Kespa lawsuits and as I picked up my copy of SC2 and start to play it. I watched from the FruiDealer GSL and all it doesn't look 'StarCraft' at all, it looked like a complete different game with just same storyline. I saw my dream shattered right in front of me and you have no fucking idea how hard that pain is. I just hope that Blizzard will able to drastic changes in HotS. Really all I want to see is handsome men (see NaDa’s body) battling out their wits in the best possible game out there and as for now, BW hold that title. | ||
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Praetorial
United States4241 Posts
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sour_eraser
Canada932 Posts
On October 20 2011 09:37 PraetorialGamer wrote: I have no idea why this is being made into a SC2 vs BW thread. BW and SC2 should be afforded equal respect, they have both assissted in the growth of ESPORTS, and neither is better or more watchable or popular. Unfortunately it happens when BW related news gets posted on community news -.- | ||
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MegaFonzie
Australia1084 Posts
It's all ESPORTS gentlemen, be respectful for christs sake. | ||
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