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Page 23. If I see any more BW vs SC2 debate from that point on you will get banned. |
On August 28 2011 20:39 SarR wrote:
My original point had nothing to with Sc2 being a better game or the depth of BW or anything like that. When the SC2 out, BW was thriving. There were clan wars, and endless tournaments on ICCUP. Korea's scene was as bright as it could be. All was right. Slowly though this new game started to usurp BW's brilliance as one by one, the movers and shakers of the non-korean scene at first started to migrate. BW started to die a slow death from here. I really didnt like this and sure I didnt want it to happen. I couldnt even watch(and still cant) SC2 because I dont get shit about whats happening. I dont know the units very well or what their roles are or anything.
However, I never thought it was a bad thing because I knew that I was being totally selfish. Who am I to want to stop progress just because Im more familiar with the old thing and just lazy or unwilling to get on board with the new thing. I mean it grieves me that its changing but you would never hear me crying about it because as much as it hurts, I have to accept the fact that this is progress. It just seems to me that people are being naive about this situation. These ideas are what influenced my 1st post in this thread.
Its more graceful and not to mention healthy to just accept that progress means changes. You could look at any aspect of life and see this. You really think that when automobiles were invented that people didnt "cry" about it phasing out horses. Im certain there were people like this. Look at where we are today. What about the advent of modern media technology like email and facebook. Do you know how many "old folks" still complain about the world making this change simply because they unable to adapt by becoming more tech savvy ? But no one from our generation can live without facebook, skype, msn etc. It made communication easier.
My point is, if we look at patterns of progress, in nearly all cases people have come around. It simply makes no sense why in this more enlightened age people still cry about change. Doesnt matter if its the invention of Airplanes or SC2 its all the same thing. You cannot convince the youth of today and adults of tomorrow to invest in a game that still uses sprite based graphics anymore than someone could convince you to use traditional mail instead of email, no matter how glorious and rich a past the "old thing" had. The world just doesnt work that way.
My mistake in posting in this thread was the assumption that people here were this reasonable. I was utterly unprepared for the unreasonable reaction from what I believe are intelligent individuals here.
That's a lie I can make do without msn,facebook,blue berry , ipad 5,6 like what you said every thing made in the world has hype in it's every movement . Big things , big money , big advertisement equals to pulling crowd and bandwagon mentality look at all the kids now day texting message on their iphone 24/7 .
I was born when computers were still using those big size floppy disket and it was an apple that being said I am not crazy enough to follow everything the majority is doing and with that I stick to things that are probably to the "NOW generation " seems to be looking at it like some age old dinasour fossil that should be kept in it's place in a muzeum . You can't deny the history bw had and the impact it had on me when i first innocently borrowed a friends copy of starcraft and "Bam" I got glued on the comp till my parents took away the computer plug away from me note i was 15 years old back than and now 24 .
That's the thing with the mentality of shipping in the new stuff and throw all the old stuff just to accomodate the market of new ADD generation . With that I can see where are you going and your arguments are right but right now I believe bw is here to stay whether it would be in my memory or in the eyes of the child in korea who are watching proleague games and wondering . "Man I can play games professionally and yet not be called a nerd " . It's disappointing that blizzard discarded any trace or precedent it had with bw and starcraft 1 it's like 10 years of development never happen at all . It seems what i played and watch through out my eyes it's a lie and being told that this is just a relic ,archaic and out of fashion .
Really made me think why is it that sc2 never had any broodwar weekly or even tried to educate the masses the hype retired bw player they are bringing in to the scene . Comments like Nada is a joke,July what ? he is just some fat nobody , Boxer old dead emperor , Yellow who ? . What are these to them ? they never care about them and all they know about their fame is just that he is just a famous broodwar player and to me minor things like these makes me piss off because what is the point of hyping players if you are not going to educate your e sports fan of these guys who are what to us bw fans great players .
See the point why I don't like how things are being done in sc2 and yet we keep getting lots of shelling from fans with the other starcraft name and wanting to reap the scene that has been created by pure sweat and blood .
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Yet another thread derailed.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Brood War is not dying. It will not die until there is no one left who still loves to play it. And there are still loads of people left. It only looks like SC2 is killing it off because a lot of foreigners who started Brood War in the last five years who were planning to play SC2 left to play SC2, and in the Korean scene, there have been major setbacks unrelated to SC2 in the last year or two.
On topic, I'm sad to see another Proleague team disbanding. I just hope that the reason for it is their frustration at not doing very well, and not a loss of faith in the game.
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Is BW dying or does this always happen?
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On August 28 2011 19:34 Sawamura wrote:
You better back that statement with facts because most of the ex bw players that are in sc2 is not doing well not at all . Let's take july for example has his performance been good at all ? like nada ? I don't think so , that's already one down with your theory that all ex bw players immediate transfer to sc2 equals to dominating the scene .
All but one of the GSLs have been won by ex-Brood War pros - Cool, IrOn, ZergBong and MVP - and the two players that you're singling out as being bad? NaDa has advanced to the round of 8 or farther in all but one of the GSLs he's played in, while July reached the finals a couple seasons ago, and both of them are over 55% winning percentage overall.
NaDa and July may not be dominating, but they're both good in StarCraft 2.
Also, if you check the top players in the Korean SC2 scene, you'll find that the vast majority of them are ex-Brood War pros, though most of them were B-teamers in Brood War.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 28 2011 20:39 SarR wrote:
My original point had nothing to with Sc2 being a better game or the depth of BW or anything like that. When the SC2 out, BW was thriving. There were clan wars, and endless tournaments on ICCUP. Korea's scene was as bright as it could be. All was right. Slowly though this new game started to usurp BW's brilliance as one by one, the movers and shakers of the non-korean scene at first started to migrate. BW started to die a slow death from here. I really didnt like this and sure I didnt want it to happen. I couldnt even watch(and still cant) SC2 because I dont get shit about whats happening. I dont know the units very well or what their roles are or anything.
However, I never thought it was a bad thing because I knew that I was being totally selfish. Who am I to want to stop progress just because Im more familiar with the old thing and just lazy or unwilling to get on board with the new thing. I mean it grieves me that its changing but you would never hear me crying about it because as much as it hurts, I have to accept the fact that this is progress. It just seems to me that people are being naive about this situation. These ideas are what influenced my 1st post in this thread.
Its more graceful and not to mention healthy to just accept that progress means changes. You could look at any aspect of life and see this. You really think that when automobiles were invented that people didnt "cry" about it phasing out horses. Im certain there were people like this. Look at where we are today. What about the advent of modern media technology like email and facebook. Do you know how many "old folks" still complain about the world making this change simply because they unable to adapt by becoming more tech savvy ? But no one from our generation can live without facebook, skype, msn etc. It made communication easier.
My point is, if we look at patterns of progress, in nearly all cases people have come around. It simply makes no sense why in this more enlightened age people still cry about change. Doesnt matter if its the invention of Airplanes or SC2 its all the same thing. You cannot convince the youth of today and adults of tomorrow to invest in a game that still uses sprite based graphics anymore than someone could convince you to use traditional mail instead of email, no matter how glorious and rich a past the "old thing" had. The world just doesnt work that way.
My mistake in posting in this thread was the assumption that people here were this reasonable. I was utterly unprepared for the unreasonable reaction from what I believe are intelligent individuals here.
so just wanna know if u have anything else as a reaosn for people 2 switch other then. "SC2 is new and u guys should switch 2 new things?" Even tho the new thing is worse in my eyes?
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I think next week the identity of the team will be revealed. Just be patient.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
Hm, NaDa and July are doing good in SC2 but when they left SC1 they weren't already doing good at SC1. Just another proof that top BW players have no reason to move to the other game, and a further proof that Starcraft has better players than Starcraft 2 has. Starcraft is elite, and Starcraft 2 isn't. 
But damn it, I'd like it to happen that some team would be FORMED, not disbanded (and plus some new players to come, not only to retire). What do you think, is it even possible?!
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I feel that the BW and SC2 communities need to be forcibly split apart and kept apart. There is too much bitterness and hate between us. The damage has been done and cannot be recovered, even if BW was remade with the same UI and mechanics and everything.
That being said, hope the news isn't as bad as it seems, BW friends. Peacefully co-existence may be impossible for us, but I wish you all the best.
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On August 28 2011 22:12 _Quasar_ wrote:Hm, NaDa and July are doing good in SC2 but when they left SC1 they weren't already doing good at SC1. Just another proof that top BW players have no reason to move to the other game, and a further proof that Starcraft has better players than Starcraft 2 has. Starcraft is elite, and Starcraft 2 isn't. But damn it, I'd like it to happen that some team would be FORMED, not disbanded (and plus some new players to come, not only to retire). What do you think, is it even possible?!
I think ryo reply answer your question quite well . Lets be patient and wait .
On August 28 2011 21:54 Ryo wrote:
I think next week the identity of the team will be revealed. Just be patient.
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On August 28 2011 20:05 Ikonn wrote:
Reason? You came into a thread of people sad that their hobby appears to be in trouble and you say something to the extent of "yeah it was always going to die eventually. Deal w/ it." It didn't add anything and it was something everyone was already aware of. So if that is your definition of "bringing reason",
Take a step back and look at what BW and SC2 really are. To us, they are entertaining art forms but in reality they are products. Products that are meant to attract profit. It’s the reason that Blizzard created them and it’s the reason that Korea had a vibrant progaming scene. They were profitable investments. No one that’s in charge of running a business would ever abandon an idea that is profitable hence when companies begin to abandon a franchise or an enterprise, its only reasonable to see that it is no longer profitable. It is totally unreasonable to expect anything different and unhealthy to harbor negative emotions over something like this.
On August 28 2011 20:08 hellbound wrote:
This combined with your stating said opinions as some sort of irrefutable fact can and is (at least by me) considered inflammatory.
The support structures of the Korean progaming scene going away one by one is a fact not an opinion.
On August 28 2011 20:11 _Quasar_ wrote:
And I just don't understand why anyone must accept sc2, just because many people accept. It's like a manipulation of mass consciousness, I don't like such things.
There is no manipulation of anything. Blizzard is a business with employees who have to eat. In this modern age of games like Crysis which utilize the bells and whistles of the most modern digital technology to provide an enriched entertainment experience, we cannot expect Blizzard to attempt to compete with the dated concepts used in their older games. Big players in the video game industry would view it as a huge risk to continue support of an old sprite based game when all the top sellers are using advanced 3d engines. They have to stay competitive. Blizzard’s response was SC2.
This would bring a huge influx of new players and viewers, so its only reasonable that eventually, with enough popularity that it would attract companies and such who wish to invest in it and since in SC2’s case a lot of BW players would be attracted as well then it means that the BW scene would lose value hence corporate interest in it will dwindle as well and the result is the situation we have now with the Korean scene. You don’t have to accept SC2 but you have no choice but you have to acknowledge reality and the consumers have chosen. These companies have a responsibility to meet consumer demand.
On August 28 2011 20:11 _Quasar_ wrote:
In fact, I haven't heard any response from people watching both games that sc2>bw in interest of the games. And I've heard many responses that bw>>>sc2. And those people aren't even die hard fans, just casual gamers/watchers.
This paragraph smacks of Cognitive Bias
On August 28 2011 20:11 _Quasar_ wrote:
There were hundreds of reasons given not only to why modern BroodWar is deeper and cooler than second starcraft, but to why sc2 possibly hasn't enough potential to supersede it in any future just because of its engine, basic (and thus unchangeable) features. I don't think it's suitable to repeat it all there, there are specific threads for this.
In a market saturated by games like Mass Effect, Crysis 2, WoW(I personally don’t get how people actually love this) it is sheer insanity to think that you can market a game on merits like “deeper and cooler” when the games in the current market have such mind-blowing features especially in terms of their looks and realism. Do you honestly believe that a modern gamer would be moved by the intricate beauty of a perfectly executed timing attack over a near photorealistic real-time rendering of a battle field backed by a powerful and almost realistic physics engine? This is unrealistic.
On August 28 2011 20:50 white_horse wrote:
Except there really isn't any kind of practicality involved when someone says SC2 > BW because it's newer and shinier. If you look at BW as a sport, then what you say about SC2 being "progress" and "change that we have to adapt to" isn't right because people watch BW because it's fun and exciting. Tell me then, why do people like to watch soccer or baseball? Both are centuries old. They watch it because it's fun. BW is just the same.
And corporations are not investing in BW itself. They are investing in the advertisement and publicity that comes with it. Do you know how much of a boon BW is to a telecommunications company like KT? They can nab more young customers. That's the whole point of sponsorship.
If public interest in soccer and baseball waned in favor of a new sport then corporations would also follow this trend. Its happening with BW but soccer and baseball have managed to maintain their appeal to the public. The heart of the matter is public preference. We have a duty to respect the rights people to like what they want to like. SC2 has attracted much interest and it is arrogant to want the public to maintain their interest in BW simply because it maintained ours for reasons cite above like its depth and relative simplicity(UI, not gameplay).
On August 28 2011 21:05 Sawamura wrote:
That's a lie I can make do without msn,facebook,blue berry , ipad 5,6 like what you said every thing made in the world has hype in it's every movement . Big things , big money , big advertisement equals to pulling crowd and bandwagon mentality look at all the kids now day texting message on their iphone 24/7 .
I was born when computers were still using those big size floppy disket and it was an apple that being said I am not crazy enough to follow everything the majority is doing and with that I stick to things that are probably to the "NOW generation " seems to be looking at it like some age old dinasour fossil that should be kept in it's place in a muzeum . You can't deny the history bw had and the impact it had on me when i first innocently borrowed a friends copy of starcraft and "Bam" I got glued on the comp till my parents took away the computer plug away from me note i was 15 years old back than and now 24 .
That's the thing with the mentality of shipping in the new stuff and throw all the old stuff just to accomodate the market of new ADD generation . With that I can see where are you going and your arguments are right but right now I believe bw is here to stay whether it would be in my memory or in the eyes of the child in korea who are watching proleague games and wondering . "Man I can play games professionally and yet not be called a nerd " . It's disappointing that blizzard discarded any trace or precedent it had with bw and starcraft 1 it's like 10 years of development never happen at all . It seems what i played and watch through out my eyes it's a lie and being told that this is just a relic ,archaic and out of fashion .
Really made me think why is it that sc2 never had any broodwar weekly or even tried to educate the masses the hype retired bw player they are bringing in to the scene . Comments like Nada is a joke,July what ? he is just some fat nobody , Boxer old dead emperor , Yellow who ? . What are these to them ? they never care about them and all they know about their fame is just that he is just a famous broodwar player and to me minor things like these makes me piss off because what is the point of hyping players if you are not going to educate your e sports fan of these guys who are what to us bw fans great players .
See the point why I don't like how things are being done in sc2 and yet we keep getting lots of shelling from fans with the other starcraft name and wanting to reap the scene that has been created by pure sweat and blood .
I also come from way back. My first computer was a 286 machine with a CGA video card, 320 floppy drive and hard disks were an expensive luxury. To date, I have no FB account, no twitter nonsense, no skype, no msn. Ive never gotten on board with these things. However, if these things were to just disappear, then 90% of the people I know would off themselves inside of a week.
Just because I don’t use them doesn’t mean that overall it’s a bad thing and it doesn’t mean its not progress. Its just change and companies have a duty to satisfy the demand of these 90% not the 10%. When I and those like me die off, it would no longer be 90 % but 100%. The ADD generation want new and shiny not old and deep.
Overall my point is to cherish the memories you have. There is no point in complaining about progress and evolution. It has NEVER stopped old things from fading away and new things from replacing them. I think a lot of people are harboring a very unhealthy attitude towards these events instead of embracing the dynamic and unpredictable beauty of change.
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On August 28 2011 22:27 bRiz wrote:
I feel that the BW and SC2 communities need to be forcibly split apart and kept apart. There is too much bitterness and hate between us. The damage has been done and cannot be recovered, even if BW was remade with the same UI and mechanics and everything.
That being said, hope the news isn't as bad as it seems, BW friends. Peacefully co-existence may be impossible for us, but I wish you all the best.
Thanks for thinking about those in between. 
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
lol tl;dr. Sorry I won't answer that in any way. This thread is not for arguing about this shit in THAT massive way. And I would advice that to anyone too. 
To anyone: play chess. It's ideal strategic game, chess >>>> (BW + SC2). And it's never outdated, because it can have any possible "graphics" you wish. Chess >>> all.
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On August 28 2011 20:39 SarR wrote:
My point is, if we look at patterns of progress, in nearly all cases people have come around. It simply makes no sense why in this more enlightened age people still cry about change. Doesnt matter if its the invention of Airplanes or SC2 its all the same thing. You cannot convince the youth of today and adults of tomorrow to invest in a game that still uses sprite based graphics anymore than someone could convince you to use traditional mail instead of email, no matter how glorious and rich a past the "old thing" had. The world just doesnt work that way.
My mistake in posting in this thread was the assumption that people here were this reasonable. I was utterly unprepared for the unreasonable reaction from what I believe are intelligent individuals here.
your mistake was not being intelligent enough about where you post your shit
you think we BW fans are not aware that the general motion of esports is BW-->SC2, and that when taekbangleessang does so they will rape everyone and make shittonnes of money? we really dont need any extra insight on this, especially from nerds that barely even played BW
i dont think any of us BW fans are trying to convince SC2 fans to switch from SC2 to BW, so why cant you dumbshits stop talking about BW moving towards SC2 in the BW forums when BW fans neglected to do so for over a year
a comparison between BW/SC2 and traditional mail/email is just dumb, because one is a form of communication and the other is a sport/game. a more appropriate analogy is some traditional sport like soccer/basketball or a sport that someone just invented in 2011 that has similarities to soccer/basketball. obviously there would be interest in the new sport if there were prizes and competition, but there's still going to be hard-fans of traditional basketball/soccer and only retards like yourself would try to convince them to change over
User was warned for this post
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On August 28 2011 22:27 bRiz wrote:
I feel that the BW and SC2 communities need to be forcibly split apart and kept apart. There is too much bitterness and hate between us. The damage has been done and cannot be recovered, even if BW was remade with the same UI and mechanics and everything.
That being said, hope the news isn't as bad as it seems, BW friends. Peacefully co-existence may be impossible for us, but I wish you all the best.
Nah, people just need to be more considerate about what they say and where. And really most of them are. But there's always a minority who are either a little socially akward and don't realize how their comments are received or just plain malicious and like to see others upset.
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On August 28 2011 22:28 SarR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 20:05 Ikonn wrote:
Reason? You came into a thread of people sad that their hobby appears to be in trouble and you say something to the extent of "yeah it was always going to die eventually. Deal w/ it." It didn't add anything and it was something everyone was already aware of. So if that is your definition of "bringing reason", Take a step back and look at what BW and SC2 really are. To us, they are entertaining art forms but in reality they are products. Products that are meant to attract profit. It’s the reason that Blizzard created them and it’s the reason that Korea had a vibrant progaming scene. They were profitable investments. No one that’s in charge of running a business would ever abandon an idea that is profitable hence when companies begin to abandon a franchise or an enterprise, its only reasonable to see that it is no longer profitable. It is totally unreasonable to expect anything different and unhealthy to harbor negative emotions over something like this.
Watching pro BW is a hobby for most of the people in the Teamliquid dot net Broodwar subforums. You're saying it's unhealthy for people to harbor negative emotions over their hobby potentially fading away? Hmm yes, sounds entirely reasonable. And again, your entire post is useless pseudo-intellectualism
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On August 28 2011 23:03 Ikonn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 22:28 SarR wrote:On August 28 2011 20:05 Ikonn wrote:
Reason? You came into a thread of people sad that their hobby appears to be in trouble and you say something to the extent of "yeah it was always going to die eventually. Deal w/ it." It didn't add anything and it was something everyone was already aware of. So if that is your definition of "bringing reason", Take a step back and look at what BW and SC2 really are. To us, they are entertaining art forms but in reality they are products. Products that are meant to attract profit. It’s the reason that Blizzard created them and it’s the reason that Korea had a vibrant progaming scene. They were profitable investments. No one that’s in charge of running a business would ever abandon an idea that is profitable hence when companies begin to abandon a franchise or an enterprise, its only reasonable to see that it is no longer profitable. It is totally unreasonable to expect anything different and unhealthy to harbor negative emotions over something like this. Watching pro BW is a hobby for most of the people in the Teamliquid dot net Broodwar subforums. You're saying it's unhealthy for people to harbor negative emotions over their hobby potentially fading away? Hmm yes, sounds entirely reasonable. And again, your entire post is useless pseudo-intellectualism
Problem is he doesn't understand that BW has progressed beyond being a simple product for profit as he claims. proBW in Korea is a culture in itself, an entire industry was built around BW. This is why is not as simple as "oh cod 15 is out".
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On August 28 2011 19:34 Sawamura wrote:
It has been 24 hours over that jangbi versus flash and you are expecting people to not know about it and if you don't thats your fault .
Sure it's my fault you self righteous prick.
It's my fault that I got spoiled 2 hours after the match by people who "expect me to know about it because they knew about it". It's my fault that I don't want others that weren't able to watch the match within 24 hours (or 12 hours since they were added to Nevake) to get spoiled. It's my fault that people get warned and banned over the most retarded reasons, but when someone spoils results like this it's all fine and dandy.
User was warned for this post
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1019 Posts
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On August 28 2011 22:27 bRiz wrote:
I feel that the BW and SC2 communities need to be forcibly split apart and kept apart. There is too much bitterness and hate between us. The damage has been done and cannot be recovered, even if BW was remade with the same UI and mechanics and everything.
That being said, hope the news isn't as bad as it seems, BW friends. Peacefully co-existence may be impossible for us, but I wish you all the best.
Can't say I agree with this. The two communities can certainly get along, to the betterment of both. The problem that occurs, and as I see it a large source of the bitterness, is when people from either communities flame the other or don't think tactfully about what they are saying. This gets everyone riled up, and we get bitterness as people from both communities generalize the actions of the idiots and ascribe them to the majority as well.
Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 20:05 Ikonn wrote:
Reason? You came into a thread of people sad that their hobby appears to be in trouble and you say something to the extent of "yeah it was always going to die eventually. Deal w/ it." It didn't add anything and it was something everyone was already aware of. So if that is your definition of "bringing reason", Take a step back and look at what BW and SC2 really are. To us, they are entertaining art forms but in reality they are products. Products that are meant to attract profit. It’s the reason that Blizzard created them and it’s the reason that Korea had a vibrant progaming scene. They were profitable investments. No one that’s in charge of running a business would ever abandon an idea that is profitable hence when companies begin to abandon a franchise or an enterprise, its only reasonable to see that it is no longer profitable. It is totally unreasonable to expect anything different and unhealthy to harbor negative emotions over something like this.
Here's the problem: tact. Regardless of how logical or correct what your saying is, the where and how your saying it is terrible. Let's say your brother, whom you deeply love, is in the hospital in his final days dying of cancer. Imagine some guy, we'll call him Bob, walking into the hospital telling everybody that it's logical that their brother is going to die and its totally unreasonable to be getting emotional about it and harbor sadness; its unreasonable to expect your brother wouldn't die.
Now imagine the brother is "BW", and "Bob" is you. Now you understand.
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