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On July 28 2011 19:09 BarneyEX wrote:
I believe teamliquid should split up the BW and SC2 sections and at least give us an option to remove part of the forums. While I own SC2, I find the ridiculous amount of content extremely annoying as it disrupts my Broodwar viewing as mentioned as the previous pages not to mention the "occasional" SC2 troll that comes in and spoils a proper discussion. Since I'm using the greasemonkey plugin that removes SC2 streams and forum section, I would recommend it to forumers that find the SC2 content annoying.
Despite what people call SC2 is gigantic success, I play on the SEA servers and they are practically dead.
Hey brother, i totally agree w you about SEA server.
I occasionally (last time more than now, 2 games sessions last 2-3 months) played 3v3 w a few my friends to socialise w them (since we are busy and dont have much time to meet up irl).. But it takes upwards of 3 minutes, sometimes about 10 to find a 3v3 game, and very lop-sided games usually (games that go over 10 minutes is a rarity, unless the other guy trolls and float his CC to a corner).
I tried playing 1v1 a little, but it takes a fair amount of time to search for games as well. It wasnt like this last time i tried playing.
Also, i curious as to how much this marketing strategy (~1.5years/expansion) will help them improve from WC3's sucesses.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On July 28 2011 19:10 Brad` wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 19:08 ShadeR wrote:On July 28 2011 19:05 Brad` wrote:On July 28 2011 18:41 zatic wrote:On July 28 2011 18:11 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
And I think the only ways to stop it now, are either to let the split happen, eg so that there is somewhere for the 'hostile BW people' to retreat to where they don't have to deal with sc2, or to just simply hand out alot of bans until alot of the problem people like myself realise that our attitude is perhaps too divisive for us still to be on TL.
Well too bad then. I know I have very little sympathy for the people with openly expressed hostility towards the majority of our community, and value the interests of people who love and follow both games, or the people who just follow one without hating the other much higher. You described the entire bw community as angry and hateful so I guess openly expressing hostility towards the minority of the community is fine. Tl has never been a democracy wth do you want to do? Stage a Coup d'état? No, I want the people that ask us to not generalize the sc2 community to not generalize the bw community in the very next line. Show nested quote +
And as you yourself know "trolls" in every community are a fraction, a tiny, vocal minority. Yet you take these few idiots as a convenient excuse to hate the entire SC2 part of our community.
You talk about disappointment. It was indeed really disappointing to see over that MSL thread what a stubborn angry and hateful bunch the SCBW community on this site has become.
Look I think we are getting somewhat off topic, while I also resent
It was indeed really disappointing to see over that MSL thread what a stubborn angry and hateful bunch the SCBW community on this site has become.
But,
Well too bad then. I know I have very little sympathy for the people with openly expressed hostility towards the majority of our community, and value the interests of people who love and follow both games, or the people who just follow one without hating the other much higher.
Is perfectly reasonable, even if the majority refers to the SC2 community. Although I think there is a misunderstanding. The hostility is not towards the majority of our community, the hostility is towards the talk of SC2 on the BW forums, that is ANY talk of SC2 on BW forums.
I think the general consensus is that the SC2 section is for SC2, and BW section is for BW. If it is TL's position that it's perfectly fine to take sc2 to bw forums, then so be it. I'm sure we will deal with it however we will. But either way, if they want this hostility to be cleared, then TL needs to make it's position clear. The hostility is a reality of the current situation, until you make it clear that either this hostility(towards sc2 talk in bw forums) is unacceptable, or that the BW section should remain for BW, the current situation will continue.
In any case I think the op's questions are answered, yes there is hostility, I think I've explained where it stems from.
I do not endorse this hostility even if i partake in it, I merely aim to point out that:
a) This hostility is there
b) Where it stems from
and c) Unless clear and purposeful action is taken to resolve it, it will not go away by itself.
edit: gah so many nested quotes ><
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Zurich15325 Posts
On July 28 2011 19:27 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 19:10 Brad` wrote:On July 28 2011 19:08 ShadeR wrote:On July 28 2011 19:05 Brad` wrote:On July 28 2011 18:41 zatic wrote:On July 28 2011 18:11 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
And I think the only ways to stop it now, are either to let the split happen, eg so that there is somewhere for the 'hostile BW people' to retreat to where they don't have to deal with sc2, or to just simply hand out alot of bans until alot of the problem people like myself realise that our attitude is perhaps too divisive for us still to be on TL.
Well too bad then. I know I have very little sympathy for the people with openly expressed hostility towards the majority of our community, and value the interests of people who love and follow both games, or the people who just follow one without hating the other much higher. You described the entire bw community as angry and hateful so I guess openly expressing hostility towards the minority of the community is fine. Tl has never been a democracy wth do you want to do? Stage a Coup d'état? No, I want the people that ask us to not generalize the sc2 community to not generalize the bw community in the very next line.
And as you yourself know "trolls" in every community are a fraction, a tiny, vocal minority. Yet you take these few idiots as a convenient excuse to hate the entire SC2 part of our community.
You talk about disappointment. It was indeed really disappointing to see over that MSL thread what a stubborn angry and hateful bunch the SCBW community on this site has become.
Look I think we are getting somewhat off topic, while I also resent
It was indeed really disappointing to see over that MSL thread what a stubborn angry and hateful bunch the SCBW community on this site has become.
But,
Well too bad then. I know I have very little sympathy for the people with openly expressed hostility towards the majority of our community, and value the interests of people who love and follow both games, or the people who just follow one without hating the other much higher.
You described the entire bw community as angry and hateful so I guess openly expressing hostility towards the minority of the community is fine. I think the general consensus is that the SC2 section is for SC2, and BW section is for BW. If it is TL's position that it's perfectly fine to take sc2 to bw forums, then so be it. [....] The hostility is a reality of the current situation, until you make it clear that either this hostility is unacceptable, or that the BW section should remain for BW, the current situation will continue.
Expressed hostility towards other individuals on this site is unacceptable and has always been. This is nothing that needs to be made clear.
The BW section remains for BW and SC2 section for SC2. I said nothing contrary. For topics where there is overlapping, I would like to see civil manners on both sides. That is all.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
If you guys have issues with posts made by SC2 people just use your report buttons -.-; I'm sure most of you have it by now.
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In May 2010, there were 300 pages of Automated Ban List(since 2006). By now, it's become more like 800-850. It's quite amazing how big the change is, though to be fair there is a LOT of new members here.
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On July 28 2011 19:41 Plexa wrote:
If you guys have issues with posts made by SC2 people just use your report buttons -.-; I'm sure most of you have it by now.
i dont have the report button though...
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On July 28 2011 19:43 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 19:41 Plexa wrote:
If you guys have issues with posts made by SC2 people just use your report buttons -.-; I'm sure most of you have it by now. i dont have the report button though...
Just wait another month.
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On July 28 2011 17:49 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 17:31 zatic wrote:On July 28 2011 17:03 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
You guys already have your side of the forum, if want to talk about SC2, stay on that side. Agreed with everything up to this point. I don't like this line of thinking at all, and it is exactly what people mean when they ask where all the hostility comes from. We are still one site, one TL, one community. There are lots and lots of people who are passionate about both games. Sure there are sub communities within TL, the people following BW Korea only being one of them. But topics will continue to come up in those sub communities which are of interest to everyone within the TL community as a whole. The MSL shutting down thread being the most prominent example. In that example, it was the BW Korea folks who met everyone else with nothing but hostility, and there is no excuse for it. The blame is entirely on them. I have read pretty much the entire MSL thread. Among those 1500 replies were less than handful you could rightfully characterize as "SC2 trolls". Yet everyone who even mentioned "SC2" in their posts what met with the unreasonable hostility this the OP is talking about. And as you yourself know "trolls" in every community are a fraction, a tiny, vocal minority. Yet you take these few idiots as a convenient excuse to hate the entire SC2 part of our community. You talk about disappointment. It was indeed really disappointing to see over that MSL thread what a stubborn angry and hateful bunch the SCBW community on this site has become. Edit: Sawamura post similar content in his post, i didnt read it before hand. Apologies.. I ll leave my message since its still largely relevant.I disagree with the Mods' reasoning on this one. It seemed to me that people that came to the MSL threads with things like "Hopefully these guys will move on to SC2" are accepted as fine. In fact, you yourself said that theres nothing wrong with people wanting the best player to play their game. And i see where you are coming from. But i disagree with it. Following the grandmother's funeral analogy, if your friend come to your grandmother's funeral, and speak publicly in front of everyone: "Wow man, lets party hard with all that inheritance u get ok?". This idiot is only concerned about his own well-being, and being concerned with oneself isnt wrong. But there is a time and place for everything. Neither the funeral or in front of everybody that are mourning is the right place. You can easily raw relevance to the MSL thread case. If they made a thread in the SC2 forums discussing people switching over, im certain the BW crowd wouldnt mind. I dont understand the part about "one TL community". The BW section is for BW stuffs to be posted, and the SC2 section for SC2, thats my understanding. For what reason should we have people posting one game's stuffs on the other game's section is beyond me. It doesnt have anything to do with "one TL community" though.
This is a Starcraft site.
The MBC Game thread was on front page as "news' so people would just click and talk about starcraft.
Some people from the sc2 side defiantly were being to harsh (mostly trolls) with some comments like "who cares old game is old" which is just stupidly disrespectful to the game that started everything.
People just got but hurt because they were already upset with the news. In my opinion mostly because people see how SC2 seems to be growing (maybe not in korea) and that BW might be on somewhat of a decline.
But for a game to stay as a ESPORT for 10 years just proves how great the game must be.
Wonder what will happen when sc3 comes out. SC2 Eliteist's! lol
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On July 28 2011 08:45 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 06:18 Eternal Dalek wrote:
I'm a Starcraft 2 player, and I sometimes lurk in the other forums here on TL.net to check up on how things are going. One thing that I have noticed in the BW forums is the hostility towards Starcraft 2, and to a lesser extent, its players. I find this quite odd as most Starcraft 2 players and pros that I know of speak very fondly of BW, placing it high on a pedestal as one of the greatest creations of humanity. BW fans hate SC2, SC2 fans hate League of Legends. The SC2 community has no right to complain about intolerance from the BW community.
I disagree with this. BW fans dislike SC2 (it has more support and hence if they didn't prefer BW they wouldn't stick around), SC2 fans are typically either former BW fans, or people who are relatively ignorant of BW because it's not well exposed to the foreign scene at all, and hence the ignorant comments "blah graphics blah" or "why havent they moved over yet" and all of that crap comes out.
SC2 fans hate LoL because, once again, they're ignorant. LoL pulls massive numbers, and it was embedded into the client which causes some rage. It has less personal skill and is more about team communication and strategy. I think the only people who should judge RTS games are RTS players, and (I hate this term), MOBA games should not be judged by RTS players, or FPS players, or whatever because they're just different. I can present a detailed argument about LoL's viability as an esport having played it, HoN, and DotA, at a casually competitive level. BW players can do that about SC2, but most SC2 players can't do that about BW.
Then again, I'm one of those SC2 players who doesn't know much about BW. That said, I think BW is awesome and I'd watch it for sure if there were English casts.
I think maybe the rules should be more strict about people making judgments about either game without sufficient background.
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On July 28 2011 19:24 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 19:09 BarneyEX wrote:
I believe teamliquid should split up the BW and SC2 sections and at least give us an option to remove part of the forums. While I own SC2, I find the ridiculous amount of content extremely annoying as it disrupts my Broodwar viewing as mentioned as the previous pages not to mention the "occasional" SC2 troll that comes in and spoils a proper discussion. Since I'm using the greasemonkey plugin that removes SC2 streams and forum section, I would recommend it to forumers that find the SC2 content annoying.
Despite what people call SC2 is gigantic success, I play on the SEA servers and they are practically dead. Hey brother, i totally agree w you about SEA server. I occasionally (last time more than now, 2 games sessions last 2-3 months) played 3v3 w a few my friends to socialise w them (since we are busy and dont have much time to meet up irl).. But it takes upwards of 3 minutes, sometimes about 10 to find a 3v3 game, and very lop-sided games usually (games that go over 10 minutes is a rarity, unless the other guy trolls and float his CC to a corner). I tried playing 1v1 a little, but it takes a fair amount of time to search for games as well. It wasnt like this last time i tried playing. Also, i curious as to how much this marketing strategy (~1.5years/expansion) will help them improve from WC3's sucesses.
I don't know what you're talking about, everyone from SEA who wants to play team games or customs plays on NA, the ladder scene is very much alive and well, sc2sea.com if you want more information.
Sorry about the double post.
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On July 28 2011 18:03 Ribbon wrote:
This actually happens. Whenever something bad happens in SC2, there are a lot of BW fans claiming vindication as to how this proves SC2 is a failure and they were right for supporting BW unlike the easily-distracted rubes. And every now and then there's one in an unrelated thread just kind of randomly declaring SC2 dead because Incontrol is fat or whatever.
Anybody who does something retarded like that should be instantly permabanned forever or given one month at the minimum. People who have been following BW for a while should know better than to act like that. Unlike much of the SC2 crowd which is probably newer to Teamliquid, TL veterans can't claim that they were too ignorant to realize that egregious base trolling is not allowed.
On July 28 2011 19:38 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 19:27 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:On July 28 2011 19:10 Brad` wrote:On July 28 2011 19:08 ShadeR wrote:On July 28 2011 19:05 Brad` wrote:On July 28 2011 18:41 zatic wrote:On July 28 2011 18:11 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
And I think the only ways to stop it now, are either to let the split happen, eg so that there is somewhere for the 'hostile BW people' to retreat to where they don't have to deal with sc2, or to just simply hand out alot of bans until alot of the problem people like myself realise that our attitude is perhaps too divisive for us still to be on TL.
Well too bad then. I know I have very little sympathy for the people with openly expressed hostility towards the majority of our community, and value the interests of people who love and follow both games, or the people who just follow one without hating the other much higher. You described the entire bw community as angry and hateful so I guess openly expressing hostility towards the minority of the community is fine. Tl has never been a democracy wth do you want to do? Stage a Coup d'état? No, I want the people that ask us to not generalize the sc2 community to not generalize the bw community in the very next line.
And as you yourself know "trolls" in every community are a fraction, a tiny, vocal minority. Yet you take these few idiots as a convenient excuse to hate the entire SC2 part of our community.
You talk about disappointment. It was indeed really disappointing to see over that MSL thread what a stubborn angry and hateful bunch the SCBW community on this site has become.
Look I think we are getting somewhat off topic, while I also resent
It was indeed really disappointing to see over that MSL thread what a stubborn angry and hateful bunch the SCBW community on this site has become.
But,
Well too bad then. I know I have very little sympathy for the people with openly expressed hostility towards the majority of our community, and value the interests of people who love and follow both games, or the people who just follow one without hating the other much higher.
You described the entire bw community as angry and hateful so I guess openly expressing hostility towards the minority of the community is fine. I think the general consensus is that the SC2 section is for SC2, and BW section is for BW. If it is TL's position that it's perfectly fine to take sc2 to bw forums, then so be it. [....] The hostility is a reality of the current situation, until you make it clear that either this hostility is unacceptable, or that the BW section should remain for BW, the current situation will continue. Expressed hostility towards other individuals on this site is unacceptable and has always been. This is nothing that needs to be made clear.
A quick perusal of the Automated Ban List will show that while that's a good story, it's not true.
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On July 28 2011 19:41 Plexa wrote:
If you guys have issues with posts made by SC2 people just use your report buttons -.-; I'm sure most of you have it by now.
I dont have it x(
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I see BW fans trolling only when SC2 trolls come here or on BW streams and troll on BW.
Most of the case when I am watching streams, I see SC2 trolls on streams bringing down BW, saying stuff like,
'who cares about this shit, its old'
'ppl still play this crap?'
'boxer and nada were best players, and they suck in sc2 now, so these players suck too'
etc etc
which makes bw fans counter troll just as hard.
don't complain, and if you wish not to be trolled, don't come here and be posting about SC2 stuff.
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This is what I remember. When the Beta came out for SC2, everyone was excited. That included BW fans. I think the initial feeling was that there would be a "new" class of players that go to play SC2. What happened was the opposite. Players that were not getting enough playing time or getting older decided they had to make a business decision. They left their teams to play SC2.
This is what started the hostility. BW fans, at first, though... Oh it's just the older players going... then some of the younger players started switching (mostly B-teamers but still). This led to the rest of the new comers to SC2 to jump on the train. People should leave BW for SC2.
During the beta and going into the first GSL for SC2, it was the BW FANS who were being the D-bags. "useless game, not balanced, no Korean fan base, etc etc etc. I think when Nestea won the GSL the SC2 fans became more obnoxious about converting BW peeps over.
However, the number one cause of the hostility (imo) is not what happened in Korea... but THE FOREIGN SCENE. Yes, Foreigners flocked to SC2 and got really good really quickly. Koreans are still better because of the practice times but the amount of money in SC2 tournaments is staggering. In BW, tournaments do not have the same prize money but the SPL is what carries BW in the money category.
While I was in the mindset, why can't both games succeed... most do not side there. It's either BW dies or SC2 dies. And I hate to say it, SC2 will not die soon and I hope BW doesn't... not when Fantasy is starting to dominate!
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On July 28 2011 06:53 blubbdavid wrote:I despise this whole "ESPORTS"-concept. For me it is just a bunch of nerds trying to add importance to their game, without knowing how the BW-scene looks like and then coming over to these forums to write about change and stuff. I don't fucking care about ESPORTS. I only care about BW and it's players, Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 06:42 hayata2.0 wrote:There's not as much going the other way seeing as the diehard BW fans tend to have the SC2 forums minimized in the sidebar and don't even look at them.  I consider myself guilty.
the esports thing really pisses me off. It makes me feel SC2 players dont give a damn about what the shit theyre talking about (whether BW or LoL or w/e).
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I fucking hate it when people start crying that BW fans are being "elitist" when they respond negatively to those same people's dumb comments that "BW sucks lololol I hope we get another July so I know he's good and pretend that I care about him/tossgirl".
Seriously, when you're being extremely rude/distasteful in a BW section of the forum, do you expect to be greeted nicely? Use common fucking sense.
SC2 fans seem to feel like they're just noobs nobody likes in the ESports world so they lash out at anyone who defends BW.
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I agree this ESPORT craziness is getting out of hands. SC2 was announced to be the the biggest esport before it was even released. Noone took the time to wait a bit and see if this game has what it takes to be a real esport like bw. Does it require enough skill to differentiate the bad from the good player, or everyone can be good with very little effort.
I`ve never heard a pro player says how good SC2 game is, what pleasure it is to play and how rewarding it is to win at this game. Everything is about the money, ESPORTS, streaming, coaching, commentating etc. And these are the main arguments of the SC2 fans why sc2 should replace bw as the main esports game. This makes me kinda hostile against SC2, because this is not what I want the successor of a game i love and played for so many years to be.
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People get riled up when someone insults something that you have invested a large portion of your life into, and still is. Be it BW or SC2.
I am someone who has moved on to SC2 from BW, and of course I get frustrated if someone calls "my game" just a fad, or whatever it may be. At the same time it blows my fucking mind to see people actually taking joy in the presumed death of BW. Or talking about replacing BW with SC2. If someone came up to me and suggested replacing Soccer with American Football, I would kick him in the dick. Let them co-exist and see how it pans out, especially in Korea; SC2 needs to look into the infrastructure that BW has created already, imo.
It's also the classic Old vs New. The "original" members of TL.net and the massive influx of new ones. It will cause tension no matter what. Especially considering how closely knit the community was pre-SC2.
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Wouldn't know about BW trolls in SC2 forums. Got dem tabs MINIMIZED. 
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I feel like making a thread on the sc2 forum with the title "What's with the troll yo ?"
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EPT
