On May 13 2011 08:11 qrs wrote: Thanks for the translations!
You only scouted the nat at 7 but scouted the high ground in 11.
-It’s hard to explain this difficult timing in words. I only scouted it after calculating it. If it was 7 it would’ve been bad, but I was lucky it was 11. But if Leta-hyung mined at the natural I had a different strategy. That’s the key point of this timing, but it’s hard to explain this scouting in words [laugh] But, I trust one day everyone will understand this kind of timing and scouting [T/N: WTF lol]
I also found Flash's explanation of his scouting pattern a bit bemusing, not to say amusing. Here's my guess about what he meant.
Leta might have been at 7 o' clock or he might have been at 11 o' clock. Also, he might have built his CC in the natural or he might have built his CC (or other buildings instead) in his main. There wasn't enough time to scout for all of these possibilities in a timely fashion, so Flash had to triage.
Flash used his time to scout three of the four possibilities: 7 o' clock natural, 11 o' clock natural, 11 o' clock main. It's true that if Leta had been building at 7 o' clock's main, Flash would have been in trouble. Still it paid for him to scout 7 o' clock's natural first because on the one hand he still had enough time to scout 11 o'clock fully in time and on the other hand, if Leta had been at 7 o' clock and decided to drop a CC in his natural, Flash would have scouted that and been able to react to that too. As for why he scouted 7 before 11 and not vice versa, I believe that this was the more efficient scouting pattern on this map--7's natural is on the way up from where Flash was at 4:30.
TL;DR: Flash's scouting pattern allowed him to scout 3/4 possibilities in time to react accordingly. Had he gone straight to 11 or had he fully scouted 7, he would only have had time to scout for 2/4 possibilities in time to properly react to them.
Just a guess, though.
Edit: Here's the picture of the map from TLPD: There's also a spawning position at 1, which I didn't account for at all, so when I talk about 2/4 and 3/4 I should really be talking about 2/6 and 3/6, I suppose.
Anyway, you can see from the map that this scouting pattern was the only way for Flash to scout 3 locations (counting naturals and mains separately) as quickly as he did. From Flash's starting location in the bottom left, the closest set of natural + main is 7's natural + 11's main (going through 11's natural, naturally).
Edit 2: actually on closer look, it seems like Flash could have equally well scouted 1's natural before 11's main. I'm not sure whether Flash had a reason for scouting 7 rather than 1 or whether that choice was a toss-up (or whether I'm totally off-base with all of this, of course).
lol This doesn't make any sense at all(to me). Flash scouted the 7 natural then he went scouting the 11 natural and main while a marine he just made scouted the 1 natural and the scv came into the 11 main and the marine head straight for the top left.
The thing is, Flash would be in a disadvantage if Leta was in the 7 main because of his scouting. Leta would have made at least 2 marines before the scv came back to 7 if leta was at the 7 main building CC inbase. At least, I think what flash meant when he said "If it was 7 it would’ve been bad, but I was lucky it was 11" because Leta would have a big BO advantage over Flash had he not got bunker rush.
Basically if Leta went CC first (which is what Flash was banking on), there were 6 possibilities - Leta could have been in any of the three positions, and either built his CC in base or at the natural. The way Flash scouted, he would have caught Leta in time in 5 of these 6 possibilities, because the Marine would go all the way into 1 o'clock main, and the SCV would go all the way into 11 o'clock main. If the SCV goes all the way into 7 o'clock main (where Flash scouted first), he might have been later to reach 11 o'clock entirely, and thus only cover 4 of 6 possibilities.
Making into the 11 o'clock 4-5 second later doesn't make much of a difference, the big difference would be the time for the scv to come back to the 7 o'clock main if leta was in that main. To me "If it was 7 it would've been bad" means if leta was at 7 o'clock.
Maybe he thinks it makes a difference. Maybe it's the difference between the Bunker at the natural getting up and not? I don't know either, definitely just speculating here, and could definitely be completely wrong.
He got his scv inside the base then pretend he's scouting normally with the scv while waiting for his marines to get closer to the base, so I still think it doesn't matter. You're right, we're just speculating here so we both could be completely wrong.
On May 13 2011 08:11 qrs wrote: Thanks for the translations!
You only scouted the nat at 7 but scouted the high ground in 11.
-It’s hard to explain this difficult timing in words. I only scouted it after calculating it. If it was 7 it would’ve been bad, but I was lucky it was 11. But if Leta-hyung mined at the natural I had a different strategy. That’s the key point of this timing, but it’s hard to explain this scouting in words [laugh] But, I trust one day everyone will understand this kind of timing and scouting [T/N: WTF lol]
I also found Flash's explanation of his scouting pattern a bit bemusing, not to say amusing. Here's my guess about what he meant.
Leta might have been at 7 o' clock or he might have been at 11 o' clock. Also, he might have built his CC in the natural or he might have built his CC (or other buildings instead) in his main. There wasn't enough time to scout for all of these possibilities in a timely fashion, so Flash had to triage.
Flash used his time to scout three of the four possibilities: 7 o' clock natural, 11 o' clock natural, 11 o' clock main. It's true that if Leta had been building at 7 o' clock's main, Flash would have been in trouble. Still it paid for him to scout 7 o' clock's natural first because on the one hand he still had enough time to scout 11 o'clock fully in time and on the other hand, if Leta had been at 7 o' clock and decided to drop a CC in his natural, Flash would have scouted that and been able to react to that too. As for why he scouted 7 before 11 and not vice versa, I believe that this was the more efficient scouting pattern on this map--7's natural is on the way up from where Flash was at 4:30.
TL;DR: Flash's scouting pattern allowed him to scout 3/4 possibilities in time to react accordingly. Had he gone straight to 11 or had he fully scouted 7, he would only have had time to scout for 2/4 possibilities in time to properly react to them.
Just a guess, though.
Edit: Here's the picture of the map from TLPD: There's also a spawning position at 1, which I didn't account for at all, so when I talk about 2/4 and 3/4 I should really be talking about 2/6 and 3/6, I suppose.
Anyway, you can see from the map that this scouting pattern was the only way for Flash to scout 3 locations (counting naturals and mains separately) as quickly as he did. From Flash's starting location in the bottom left, the closest set of natural + main is 7's natural + 11's main (going through 11's natural, naturally).
Edit 2: actually on closer look, it seems like Flash could have equally well scouted 1's natural before 11's main. I'm not sure whether Flash had a reason for scouting 7 rather than 1 or whether that choice was a toss-up (or whether I'm totally off-base with all of this, of course).
lol This doesn't make any sense at all(to me). Flash scouted the 7 natural then he went scouting the 11 natural and main while a marine he just made scouted the 1 natural and the scv came into the 11 main and the marine head straight for the top left.
The thing is, Flash would be in a disadvantage if Leta was in the 7 main because of his scouting. Leta would have made at least 2 marines before the scv came back to 7 if leta was at the 7 main building CC inbase. At least, I think what flash meant when he said "If it was 7 it would’ve been bad, but I was lucky it was 11" because Leta would have a big BO advantage over Flash had he not got bunker rush.
Basically if Leta went CC first (which is what Flash was banking on), there were 6 possibilities - Leta could have been in any of the three positions, and either built his CC in base or at the natural. The way Flash scouted, he would have caught Leta in time in 5 of these 6 possibilities, because the Marine would go all the way into 1 o'clock main, and the SCV would go all the way into 11 o'clock main. If the SCV goes all the way into 7 o'clock main (where Flash scouted first), he might have been later to reach 11 o'clock entirely, and thus only cover 4 of 6 possibilities.
Making into the 11 o'clock 4-5 second later doesn't make much of a difference, the big difference would be the time for the scv to come back to the 7 o'clock main if leta was in that main. To me "If it was 7 it would've been bad" means if leta was at 7 o'clock.
Maybe he thinks it makes a difference. Maybe it's the difference between the Bunker at the natural getting up and not? I don't know either, definitely just speculating here, and could definitely be completely wrong.
He got his scv inside the base then pretend he's scouting normally with the scv while waiting for his marines to get closer to the base, so I still think it doesn't matter. You're right, we're just speculating here so we both could be completely wrong.
Well, my point is that if Leta decided to do some sort of CC Bunker expand at the natural, the timing might have mattered. But yeah, who knows?
I like this interview. It is typical in a way: Jaedong with his force, Flash with his intelligence and understanding. They are like the ying and yang, the Karpov and Kasparov of Starcraft.
On May 13 2011 08:11 qrs wrote: Thanks for the translations!
You only scouted the nat at 7 but scouted the high ground in 11.
-It’s hard to explain this difficult timing in words. I only scouted it after calculating it. If it was 7 it would’ve been bad, but I was lucky it was 11. But if Leta-hyung mined at the natural I had a different strategy. That’s the key point of this timing, but it’s hard to explain this scouting in words [laugh] But, I trust one day everyone will understand this kind of timing and scouting [T/N: WTF lol]
I also found Flash's explanation of his scouting pattern a bit bemusing, not to say amusing. Here's my guess about what he meant.
Leta might have been at 7 o' clock or he might have been at 11 o' clock. Also, he might have built his CC in the natural or he might have built his CC (or other buildings instead) in his main. There wasn't enough time to scout for all of these possibilities in a timely fashion, so Flash had to triage.
Flash used his time to scout three of the four possibilities: 7 o' clock natural, 11 o' clock natural, 11 o' clock main. It's true that if Leta had been building at 7 o' clock's main, Flash would have been in trouble. Still it paid for him to scout 7 o' clock's natural first because on the one hand he still had enough time to scout 11 o'clock fully in time and on the other hand, if Leta had been at 7 o' clock and decided to drop a CC in his natural, Flash would have scouted that and been able to react to that too. As for why he scouted 7 before 11 and not vice versa, I believe that this was the more efficient scouting pattern on this map--7's natural is on the way up from where Flash was at 4:30.
TL;DR: Flash's scouting pattern allowed him to scout 3/4 possibilities in time to react accordingly. Had he gone straight to 11 or had he fully scouted 7, he would only have had time to scout for 2/4 possibilities in time to properly react to them.
Just a guess, though.
Edit: Here's the picture of the map from TLPD: There's also a spawning position at 1, which I didn't account for at all, so when I talk about 2/4 and 3/4 I should really be talking about 2/6 and 3/6, I suppose.
Anyway, you can see from the map that this scouting pattern was the only way for Flash to scout 3 locations (counting naturals and mains separately) as quickly as he did. From Flash's starting location in the bottom left, the closest set of natural + main is 7's natural + 11's main (going through 11's natural, naturally).
Edit 2: actually on closer look, it seems like Flash could have equally well scouted 1's natural before 11's main. I'm not sure whether Flash had a reason for scouting 7 rather than 1 or whether that choice was a toss-up (or whether I'm totally off-base with all of this, of course).
lol This doesn't make any sense at all(to me). Flash scouted the 7 natural then he went scouting the 11 natural and main while a marine he just made scouted the 1 natural and the scv came into the 11 main and the marine head straight for the top left.
The thing is, Flash would be in a disadvantage if Leta was in the 7 main because of his scouting. Leta would have made at least 2 marines before the scv came back to 7 if leta was at the 7 main building CC inbase. At least, I think what flash meant when he said "If it was 7 it would’ve been bad, but I was lucky it was 11" because Leta would have a big BO advantage over Flash had he not got bunker rush.
Basically if Leta went CC first (which is what Flash was banking on), there were 6 possibilities - Leta could have been in any of the three positions, and either built his CC in base or at the natural. The way Flash scouted, he would have caught Leta in time in 5 of these 6 possibilities, because the Marine would go all the way into 1 o'clock main, and the SCV would go all the way into 11 o'clock main. If the SCV goes all the way into 7 o'clock main (where Flash scouted first), he might have been later to reach 11 o'clock entirely, and thus only cover 4 of 6 possibilities.
Making into the 11 o'clock 4-5 second later doesn't make much of a difference, the big difference would be the time for the scv to come back to the 7 o'clock main if leta was in that main. To me "If it was 7 it would've been bad" means if leta was at 7 o'clock.
Thanks for pointing out the detail about the marine scouting 1's natural. (I hadn't actually watched the game, so I didn't know about that).
As for what Flash said about "If it were 7, it would have been bad", I agree with you that it means if Leta were at 7 o'clock (and hadn't expanded to the natural), but Flash knew that, and he still thought it was worthwhile to scout the way he did. I was just trying to explain why it might have been worthwhile.
As for whether 4-5 seconds makes much of a difference, when it comes to a bunker rush, it can potentially make all the difference. You do seem to be right that it wouldn't have mattered in this scenario, but maybe it would have made the difference in a different situation, for instance if Leta were walling off, or perhaps if he were expanding to the natural with a bunker, as darktreb suggested.
In fact, maybe it was that latter scenario that Flash had in mind when he said "if Leta-hyung mined at the natural I had a different strategy"--I'd thought that that meant 7's natural, but looking at it again, it sounds more like he meant 11's natural. Maybe he would have used his scout to harass the SCV building the CC at the natural. With Flash's build, he had time to do that at all three naturals. Maybe that was the key timing that he cut corners for. Rereading what Flash said, I think that that actually fits best into his words, "If Leta-hyung mined at the natural I had a different strategy. That’s the key point of this timing."
TL;DR: You guys make good points, and on looking at the VOD and rereading Flash's words, I think that perhaps I was wrong the first time, and the key point of Flash's scouting pattern was to hit all three naturals in time to catch a 14 CC being built at the natural (rather than to scout three naturals + a main a few seconds earlier). All still kinda speculative though.
Here's the VOD, in case anyone wants to try analyzing it themselves.
On May 13 2011 08:11 qrs wrote: Thanks for the translations!
You only scouted the nat at 7 but scouted the high ground in 11.
-It’s hard to explain this difficult timing in words. I only scouted it after calculating it. If it was 7 it would’ve been bad, but I was lucky it was 11. But if Leta-hyung mined at the natural I had a different strategy. That’s the key point of this timing, but it’s hard to explain this scouting in words [laugh] But, I trust one day everyone will understand this kind of timing and scouting [T/N: WTF lol]
I also found Flash's explanation of his scouting pattern a bit bemusing, not to say amusing. Here's my guess about what he meant.
Leta might have been at 7 o' clock or he might have been at 11 o' clock. Also, he might have built his CC in the natural or he might have built his CC (or other buildings instead) in his main. There wasn't enough time to scout for all of these possibilities in a timely fashion, so Flash had to triage.
Flash used his time to scout three of the four possibilities: 7 o' clock natural, 11 o' clock natural, 11 o' clock main. It's true that if Leta had been building at 7 o' clock's main, Flash would have been in trouble. Still it paid for him to scout 7 o' clock's natural first because on the one hand he still had enough time to scout 11 o'clock fully in time and on the other hand, if Leta had been at 7 o' clock and decided to drop a CC in his natural, Flash would have scouted that and been able to react to that too. As for why he scouted 7 before 11 and not vice versa, I believe that this was the more efficient scouting pattern on this map--7's natural is on the way up from where Flash was at 4:30.
TL;DR: Flash's scouting pattern allowed him to scout 3/4 possibilities in time to react accordingly. Had he gone straight to 11 or had he fully scouted 7, he would only have had time to scout for 2/4 possibilities in time to properly react to them.
Just a guess, though.
Edit: Here's the picture of the map from TLPD: There's also a spawning position at 1, which I didn't account for at all, so when I talk about 2/4 and 3/4 I should really be talking about 2/6 and 3/6, I suppose.
Anyway, you can see from the map that this scouting pattern was the only way for Flash to scout 3 locations (counting naturals and mains separately) as quickly as he did. From Flash's starting location in the bottom left, the closest set of natural + main is 7's natural + 11's main (going through 11's natural, naturally).
Edit 2: actually on closer look, it seems like Flash could have equally well scouted 1's natural before 11's main. I'm not sure whether Flash had a reason for scouting 7 rather than 1 or whether that choice was a toss-up (or whether I'm totally off-base with all of this, of course).
lol This doesn't make any sense at all(to me). Flash scouted the 7 natural then he went scouting the 11 natural and main while a marine he just made scouted the 1 natural and the scv came into the 11 main and the marine head straight for the top left.
The thing is, Flash would be in a disadvantage if Leta was in the 7 main because of his scouting. Leta would have made at least 2 marines before the scv came back to 7 if leta was at the 7 main building CC inbase. At least, I think what flash meant when he said "If it was 7 it would’ve been bad, but I was lucky it was 11" because Leta would have a big BO advantage over Flash had he not got bunker rush.
Basically if Leta went CC first (which is what Flash was banking on), there were 6 possibilities - Leta could have been in any of the three positions, and either built his CC in base or at the natural. The way Flash scouted, he would have caught Leta in time in 5 of these 6 possibilities, because the Marine would go all the way into 1 o'clock main, and the SCV would go all the way into 11 o'clock main. If the SCV goes all the way into 7 o'clock main (where Flash scouted first), he might have been later to reach 11 o'clock entirely, and thus only cover 4 of 6 possibilities.
Making into the 11 o'clock 4-5 second later doesn't make much of a difference, the big difference would be the time for the scv to come back to the 7 o'clock main if leta was in that main. To me "If it was 7 it would've been bad" means if leta was at 7 o'clock.
Maybe he thinks it makes a difference. Maybe it's the difference between the Bunker at the natural getting up and not? I don't know either, definitely just speculating here, and could definitely be completely wrong.
He got his scv inside the base then pretend he's scouting normally with the scv while waiting for his marines to get closer to the base, so I still think it doesn't matter. You're right, we're just speculating here so we both could be completely wrong.
Well, my point is that if Leta decided to do some sort of CC Bunker expand at the natural, the timing might have mattered. But yeah, who knows?
You need to repeat your point in that last statement to make it clear to me. "CC bunker expand at the natural", would that be putting the CC at the natural or putting the bunker at the natural before lifting the CC there?
It's clear to me what Flash meant when he said 7 o'clock would've been bad - he sent his first marine to 1 o'clock. That means Flash would have been a marine short at the timing he chose to employ - that marine simply would not have been able to regroup in time with the rest. In that case, he certainly would not have been able to force his way into the main like he did, seeing as Leta would've then been only 1 marine short as opposed to 2.
Lol how many times can they ask him about losing to Horang2, it almost seemed like they were trying to make him feel bad. "Horang2 has a less than 50% win rate vs Zerg and plays the worst vs Zerg. What are your thoughts on losing to him?"
Hi. Im just starting to learn about BW in korea. How is it? What are the tournaments? What is MSL? Where can I learn more about BW progaming scene in general. I thought it was just like a minor isolated event, but it looks big. Thanks for answering. No troll pls
On May 13 2011 14:38 hot_bed wrote: Hi. Im just starting to learn about BW in korea. How is it? What are the tournaments? What is MSL? Where can I learn more about BW progaming scene in general. I thought it was just like a minor isolated event, but it looks big. Thanks for answering. No troll pls
I don't think this is what flash said, but if you scout the nat of first base, and the nat and main of another base, there is a specific timing he hits. If he scouts the nat and main of the first base, and the nat ( and later main) of another base, then he lost his timing, because scouting the main of the first base will mean you have double back (across some terrain, the ramp, and the nat.)
Damn, Calm had something prepared for all spawning points, brain zerg indeed. flash's scouting technique is too deep for me lol my sense of timing is pretty weak
On May 13 2011 14:50 Release wrote: I don't think this is what flash said, but if you scout the nat of first base, and the nat and main of another base, there is a specific timing he hits. If he scouts the nat and main of the first base, and the nat ( and later main) of another base, then he lost his timing, because scouting the main of the first base will mean you have double back (across some terrain, the ramp, and the nat.)
Personally, i feel this is a bit risky.
I agree that this seems to be what he means. Whichever base he scouts first, be it 1 or 7, he will only scout the nat in case of a 14CC built on the nat itself. The base across his, he will scout both nat and main. Maybe at that particular timing, he can make a crucial decision. Of course this is all speculation and I'm just as confused as everyone else is haha.
EPT
Flash 
Horang2 has a less than 50% win rate vs Zerg and plays the worst vs Zerg. What are your thoughts on losing to him?"
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/404_Circuit%20Breaker.jpg)
