So, I was reading one of the recent tournament recap things, and was entertained to learn that Queens were used with some success against a Terran mech composition. A little while after that (possibly in a different article; I don't remember too well), there was an offhand mention of wraiths. Both of these units are stuff I never see in replays, so that got me to thinking.
Please, indulge my curiosity: Are there any units that have simply never been used in pro Brood War play? Or does everything have a good use, even if it's a use that doesn't necessarily come up all that often?
Dark archons. They're good in pvz for stopping muta harass or whatever, but with good sair control corsairs just do so much more. Even more, dark archons are expensive and for them to be useful you have to hide it extremely well.
dark archon, scout, devourer and ghost are probably the least used units in pro starcraft, but even then if you've been watching pro SC for at least a couple years you'll have seen them a couple times. out of these 4 the scout probably has the least use. i can't recall it ever being used other than to humiliate the opponent or for fun in an allstars game
devourers at least have some place in ZvZ or should protoss opt for carriers in PvZ (which is pretty uncommon nowadays)
ghosts are used for nukes which are seen in TvT (or even TvP) very very rarely)
not sure when dark archons are used but i have seen them in PvZ a few times
edit: i wouldn't say queens are used rarely, at least not nowadays. they're used every once in a while in tvz and even zvz to ensnare mutas
wraiths are seen often in TvT, they were at one point a mainstay in unti comp a few years back in TvT.
Scouts do have their uses, They work at the same level as cosairs as a harass unit. they can work well in the early game killing workers (slowly though) but they work well in large enough amounts.
devourers, scouts and ghosts are by far the super rarest units youll ever see. the other rare units, especially casters are still possible of scoring a beautiful rack of kills or be very cost effective if abused appropriately
On May 01 2011 01:57 GG.NoRe wrote: Infested Terrans
lol completely forgot about infested terrans. command centres are infested all the time but infested terrans are so rarely used. i think i've only ever seen them in PvZ on holy world lol
Scouts by far, then ghosts, then Devourer and DA. I feel DA has tremendous potential PvZ with both feedback and maelstrom. Ghosts seem like great carrier and recall counters. I have never thought of scouts as remotely useful.
Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
Units like the DA and the devourer and the valkyrie appear less often because they were designed (and primarily function) as hard counters to certain compositions
The DA hard counters extremely expensive units like carriers and BC's, just as the devourer and valkyrie hard counter excessively large air fleets. Even the firebat functions like this to a limited extent as it prevents mass ling strategies to be anything other than a cheese in tvz (if mass lings are scouted... the terran makes lots of firebats and lol's...if the terran is caught off guard by the mass lings he instead probably dies)
For this reason these units rarely see use.. as most opponents prefer not to put themselves in a situation where they are vulnerable to a hard counters.
This is why units like reapers became unpopular in sc2.. they could only do one thing well (which they did extremely well) so opponents were unwilling to put themselves in situations were reapers could be useful.
TL;DR Every unit was designed to have a purpose (obv). For each of the units that is used less often.. it is because it fulfills its purpose to well.. making an opponent unwilling to do a strategy vulnerable to that unit. The units that u never see are the ones that are only good at fulfilling one purpose.
On May 01 2011 02:07 loveeholicce wrote: Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
On May 01 2011 02:07 loveeholicce wrote: Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
People go hydra/lurk/defiler sometimes.
Fine, situational . I've never seen it work though aside from Jaedong vs Flash on uh....some map. It seems most agree that lurker ling is a better way to play though, unless Terran opens wraiths
On May 01 2011 02:07 loveeholicce wrote: Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
People go hydra/lurk/defiler sometimes.
Fine, situational . I've never seen it work though aside from Jaedong vs Flash on uh....some map. It seems most agree that lurker ling is a better way to play though, unless Terran opens wraiths
On May 01 2011 02:07 loveeholicce wrote: Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
Deep Six is a not that uncommon. I've at least seen it more times than scouts. The only real example I've seen of actual use of the scout is in the Kal vs. Forgg game linked earlier. I think all other units have use in certain strategies.
Scouts have some use, they can take down carriers and battlecruisers effectively. Of course those are not units you see in vP almost ever, but that's thanks to the threat of scouts partly.
On May 01 2011 02:41 JohannesH wrote: Scouts have some use, they can take down carriers and battlecruisers effectively. Of course those are not units you see in vP almost ever, but that's thanks to the threat of scouts partly.
Infested terrans are obviously the most rarely used units in the game, if only for the hoops you have to go through to actually build them. Still, every unit in the game has its niche and in recent years every one of them has seen effective use (not for humiliation) in pro games. It is however often related to special maps like Holy World that contained neutral command centers to enable infested terran play, Triathlon that has neutral arbiters that can be mind controlled by a Dark Archon, or maps like Match Point where scouts and ghosts are viable for harassing unsupported tanks and launching nukes respectively.
I remember one game where Flying creatively used a scout for its greater line of sight, so that he could scout the terran's defenses before going in with carriers. To be fair, his opponent was a rookie and Flying didn't play all that well, but the scout was effective nonetheless.
On May 01 2011 02:07 loveeholicce wrote: Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
Vessels are SO key in long TvTs, both for detecting wraiths, d-matrix, and emp on BCs.
Scouts are just bad. Ghosts are usually useless. Valks, Dark Archons, and Devourers have potential use.
I think ghosts and DA are under rated and could be used to pull some sweet shit off. DA's maelstrom is just extremely good, too bad it costs an arm and a leg in energy. Ghosts lock down would be great against carriers and potential recalls, but there are more cost effective solutions (Science vessels).
On May 01 2011 02:07 loveeholicce wrote: Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
Deep Six is a not that uncommon. I've at least seen it more times than scouts. The only real example I've seen of actual use of the scout is in the Kal vs. Forgg game linked earlier. I think all other units have use in certain strategies.
It's pretty uncommon. Last year and this year I've seen Flash use it 3 times, Midas fail with it vs Best on grandline, and light fail with it in his MSL group last year. Probably missing 3 or 4 other cases but thats about it, and think about the hundres of TvPs that have been played the last 2 seasons
On May 01 2011 02:07 loveeholicce wrote: Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
People go hydra/lurk/defiler sometimes.
Fine, situational . I've never seen it work though aside from Jaedong vs Flash on uh....some map. It seems most agree that lurker ling is a better way to play though, unless Terran opens wraiths
Watch Hero vs Hwasin Ro8 set 2(or 3 i don't remember), some OSLs back then.
Sair only really vs Z. Sometimes vs T for the d-web on tanks. MM only vs Z, unless Deep 6 (and apparently Fantasy recommends it against queens in TvZ. Get it?) BC's only TvT, BM by fbh vs Z Wraiths only vs T, sometimes used vs Z to pick off ovs... Valks vs T if mass wraiths, vs Z if you're Fantasy xD Scouts just suk in general. Carriers only PvT, hardly used vs Z nemore. Arbiters only vT, seldom in other M/U Devourers only in ZvZ Hydras only in PvZ... sometimes in vT and Hivetech vZ
On May 01 2011 02:07 loveeholicce wrote: Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
People go hydra/lurk/defiler sometimes.
Fine, situational . I've never seen it work though aside from Jaedong vs Flash on uh....some map. It seems most agree that lurker ling is a better way to play though, unless Terran opens wraiths
Er, I was under the impression that hydra/lurk/defiler was still the go to composition against SK terran.
On May 01 2011 02:17 white_horse wrote: pros occassionally use dark archons in PvZ against defilers
And in PvP against High Templars.
Anyway, the only really useless unit is the Scout. Even infested terrans aren't totally useless, they're just really hard to get and only good in certain situations. But, if you do get them, bombing a mineral line of a newly claimed expansion is pretty good. Even if turrets are up, you can land them on the ground and then run to the SCVs.
Also, about the scout, I've actually seen one pro game where the scout won the game for the Protoss. P went 12 nexus on colosseum, T went 2 fact contain. P broke out of it with scouts, forcing the terran to get goliaths and to start building turrets, but he kept killing the SCVs building the turrets. By the time goliaths came out (you really don't want to get goliaths when you're doing a 2 fac) it was too late. Having to go goliaths meant a weaker contain. Also, he lost many SCVs trying to build turrets. This let the P break out with zealots and dragoons + the 3 or 4 scouts he made.
On May 01 2011 03:27 Ideas wrote: Dark archons are actually really good in lategame pvp and pvz. Feedbacking HTs and delifers is so useful, and maelstorm is great vs ultraling.
Devourers are really good in lategame zvz, but that's about it.
Really I would say scouts and sorta ghosts are the only unused units in the game, although ghosts still havea lot of potential.
Agreed, ghosts and scouts are the only unit that doesn't seem to have a place in modern BW. Many units are only useful in rare circumstances, but that doesn't change the fact that they have a place.
Queens - Even if terran figures out a way to shut them down vs mech, they will always have a place in late game ZvZ. This might not happen that often, but when it does they are amazing.
Guardian - Surprise tech switch unit vT.
Devourer - Useful in late game ZvZ and late game PvZ when P went for a lot of sairs.
Wraith - Very good in TvT, sometimes useful in TvZ.
Valk - Useful in some TvZ openings to handle muta's, and in TvT to handle mass wraiths.
BC - Lategame TvT, and possibly some late game TvZ for base sniping.
DA - Useful in lategame PvZ when Z has big air, and and in PvP.
Just because these units are situational, that doesn't mean they're not useful.
While not technically a unit, the shield battery has very limited uses. But I think there was at least one pro-game where someone went a shield battery... can't remember which.
On May 01 2011 04:38 Palmar wrote: While not technically a unit, the shield battery has very limited uses. But I think there was at least one pro-game where someone went a shield battery... can't remember which.
On May 01 2011 04:38 Palmar wrote: While not technically a unit, the shield battery has very limited uses. But I think there was at least one pro-game where someone went a shield battery... can't remember which.
Other than light vs tempest, I remember a PvT with Stork where he got a shield battery while going 14 Nexus
Infested terrans could actually be a mainstream unit in ZvP if maps had a neutral CC floating around every spawn position. They take quite a bit of micro but with 500 damage and massive range, its basically a nuke. how the hell can a nuke for 100 minerals 50 gas not be useful.
On May 01 2011 04:38 Palmar wrote: While not technically a unit, the shield battery has very limited uses. But I think there was at least one pro-game where someone went a shield battery... can't remember which.
Other than light vs tempest, I remember a PvT with Stork where he got a shield battery while going 14 Nexus
Yeah and they were used on some of the epic PvP games on Central Plains
DAs can be used in PvP to snipe templar and in PvZ for sniping defilers and for a brief period in the meta, for maelstroming mutas. In only the finest of games do they use their mind control. They are currently not used much, but everyone has seen them enough that when they morph it's amusing, but not amazing.
Valks have applications in TvT against wraiths and TvZ against mutas. They see semi-regular play at this point. A couple years ago this was not the case.
Queens have been used from time to time, though generally their applications are gimmicky. They show up most in ZvT, but can be seen in all MUs. They never seem to have become a reliable plan in any matchup.
Devourers are late-game, and as such are almost entirely used as a reactionary unit when ZvZ has gotten absurd or the game has expanded well outside the normal set of pathways. They're highly situational, but there are those situations where devourers are the optimal choice.
On May 01 2011 02:07 loveeholicce wrote: Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
People go hydra/lurk/defiler sometimes.
Fine, situational . I've never seen it work though aside from Jaedong vs Flash on uh....some map. It seems most agree that lurker ling is a better way to play though, unless Terran opens wraiths
Jaedong goes post-defiler hydralurkling not too infrequently in ZvT. More often than most Zerg player.
On May 01 2011 03:25 FlaShFTW wrote: It's all about the M/U really.
Sair only really vs Z. Sometimes vs T for the d-web on tanks. MM only vs Z, unless Deep 6 (and apparently Fantasy recommends it against queens in TvZ. Get it?) BC's only TvT, BM by fbh vs Z Wraiths only vs T, sometimes used vs Z to pick off ovs... Valks vs T if mass wraiths, vs Z if you're Fantasy xD Scouts just suk in general. Carriers only PvT, hardly used vs Z nemore. Arbiters only vT, seldom in other M/U Devourers only in ZvZ Hydras only in PvZ... sometimes in vT and Hivetech vZ
Wraith is used in TvP to snipe shuttle sometimes. I also remember a game (Fantasy vs Zero ?) where Terran was contained and had probably just his main and some wraiths. The zerg made some devourers and had a queen for ensnare. But it was a long time ago and I didn't follow BW much then.
On May 01 2011 04:38 Palmar wrote: While not technically a unit, the shield battery has very limited uses. But I think there was at least one pro-game where someone went a shield battery... can't remember which.
Shield battery is used fairly often, especially PvP, but sometimes against marine rushes in PvT. Shield battery is a lot quicker than getting a forge, so if you discover an attack is incoming and have very little time, shield battery is not just useful, but a standard response.
Scouts are a kind of passive counter. They make a lot of unit combinations unattractive because scouts have such powerful AA (although Dragoons often also make those same combinations unattractive). If they weren't 275 minerals each they might be a useful harass option for Protoss, a la wraith and muta micro. I'm fine with Protoss not getting that equivalent tho... Diversity between the races is what makes this game interesting.
On May 01 2011 02:07 loveeholicce wrote: Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
Deep Six Hydras under swarm with lurkers can kill marines while they run Corsairs can be used against Hiya if he goes 3 port wraith Science Vessels are used in super late game to stop yamatos BCs are used to solidify advantages in TvZ and/or BM. Arbiters were almost used in PvZ when stork defended a hydra bust from kwanro.
I think I've seen every unit used in at least one programe for an actual use and not just BM. The least commonly used units are probably Scouts, Infested Terrans Ghosts and Devourers.
Scouts-iirc Bisu used them vs Much when Much went one base carrier. I know someone used them in some PvP against carriers at least.
Dark Archons-Get a fair amount of use in PvZ, not exactly common but not unheard of. Also as others have said they occasionally get used as anti-templar in PvP
Shield Battery-There is of course the legendary Tempest vs Light game. Also get used in PvP occasioanlly.
Ghosts-Hiya used them vs Free and boxer uses them for nukes. Also there is of course the legendary game where Boxer locked down a ton of Carriers.
Valkyries-Got used in ZvT fairly commonly for a while when the fantasy build was new, not that common anymore. Also I think I have seen them in Lategame TvT to counter mass Wraith
Devourers-Get used in lategame ZvZ a lot of the time when it gets that far. Also I've seen them in PvZ when Protoss goes mass air (I can only remember them being used when Bisu and Stork would go Sair/Reaver into Sair/Carrier on Andromeda though)
Guardians-Used a decent amount of the time in ZvT.
Queens-Mostly used vs Mech and in lategame ZvZ. Also there were a handfull of ZvTs where Zergsa would use it vs Bio so the MnM couldn't run away (iirc Jaedong used this strat in at least one game that he won. I think the first game I saw this was by HoGiL)
Infested Terran-Zero would use them on Holy world (the map had a neutral CC in the middle). I think Mondragon used them in a TSL 2 match very effectively. I think I've seen them in some other Korean ZvT but none come to mind.
On May 01 2011 02:07 loveeholicce wrote: Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
People go hydra/lurk/defiler sometimes.
Fine, situational . I've never seen it work though aside from Jaedong vs Flash on uh....some map. It seems most agree that lurker ling is a better way to play though, unless Terran opens wraiths
Jaedong goes post-defiler hydralurkling not too infrequently in ZvT. More often than most Zerg player.
Really? Can you point to any games? I see him do it against mech but obviously its standard against mech and bio --> mech transition
On May 01 2011 02:07 loveeholicce wrote: Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
Deep Six Hydras under swarm with lurkers can kill marines while they run Corsairs can be used against Hiya if he goes 3 port wraith Science Vessels are used in super late game to stop yamatos BCs are used to solidify advantages in TvZ and/or BM. Arbiters were almost used in PvZ when stork defended a hydra bust from kwanro.
There's a difference between very rare and never (I was talking about rare) How often do we see deep six? Very very rarely. Corsairs are very rare in TvP and Hiya's 3 port wraith TvP build has been used once in starcraft's 10+ year professional history. It's hardly a case for the unit being common in the matchup. Science vessels I'll agree. BCs, like I said, are used rarely in TvZ (like I directly said that....) They were also used twice by Flying (once vs yellow, once vs effort) but theyre not a standard PvZ unit by any means. I could probably count on my hands how many times I remember arbiters being used in a korean pro game PvZ. Not sure wat ur really getting at
On May 01 2011 02:07 loveeholicce wrote: Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
People go hydra/lurk/defiler sometimes.
Fine, situational . I've never seen it work though aside from Jaedong vs Flash on uh....some map. It seems most agree that lurker ling is a better way to play though, unless Terran opens wraiths
Jaedong goes post-defiler hydralurkling not too infrequently in ZvT. More often than most Zerg player.
Really? Can you point to any games? I see him do it against mech but obviously its standard against mech and bio --> mech transition
On May 01 2011 02:07 loveeholicce wrote: Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
Deep Six Hydras under swarm with lurkers can kill marines while they run Corsairs can be used against Hiya if he goes 3 port wraith Science Vessels are used in super late game to stop yamatos BCs are used to solidify advantages in TvZ and/or BM. Arbiters were almost used in PvZ when stork defended a hydra bust from kwanro.
There's a difference between very rare and never (I was talking about rare) How often do we see deep six? Very very rarely. Corsairs are very rare in TvP and Hiya's 3 port wraith TvP build has been used once in starcraft's 10+ year professional history. It's hardly a case for the unit being common in the matchup. Science vessels I'll agree. BCs, like I said, are used rarely in TvZ (like I directly said that....) They were also used twice by Flying (once vs yellow, once vs effort) but theyre not a standard PvZ unit by any means. I could probably count on my hands how many times I remember arbiters being used in a korean pro game PvZ. Not sure wat ur really getting at
On May 01 2011 02:07 loveeholicce wrote: Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
People go hydra/lurk/defiler sometimes.
Fine, situational . I've never seen it work though aside from Jaedong vs Flash on uh....some map. It seems most agree that lurker ling is a better way to play though, unless Terran opens wraiths
Jaedong goes post-defiler hydralurkling not too infrequently in ZvT. More often than most Zerg player.
Really? Can you point to any games? I see him do it against mech but obviously its standard against mech and bio --> mech transition
On May 01 2011 05:20 Release wrote:
On May 01 2011 02:07 loveeholicce wrote: Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
Deep Six Hydras under swarm with lurkers can kill marines while they run Corsairs can be used against Hiya if he goes 3 port wraith Science Vessels are used in super late game to stop yamatos BCs are used to solidify advantages in TvZ and/or BM. Arbiters were almost used in PvZ when stork defended a hydra bust from kwanro.
There's a difference between very rare and never (I was talking about rare) How often do we see deep six? Very very rarely. Corsairs are very rare in TvP and Hiya's 3 port wraith TvP build has been used once in starcraft's 10+ year professional history. It's hardly a case for the unit being common in the matchup. Science vessels I'll agree. BCs, like I said, are used rarely in TvZ (like I directly said that....) They were also used twice by Flying (once vs yellow, once vs effort) but theyre not a standard PvZ unit by any means. I could probably count on my hands how many times I remember arbiters being used in a korean pro game PvZ. Not sure wat ur really getting at
jaedong used hydras vs mnm against light recently
Didn't light open wraiths that game though? You're supposed to supplement your army with hydras in that case
On May 01 2011 02:07 loveeholicce wrote: Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
People go hydra/lurk/defiler sometimes.
Fine, situational . I've never seen it work though aside from Jaedong vs Flash on uh....some map. It seems most agree that lurker ling is a better way to play though, unless Terran opens wraiths
Jaedong goes post-defiler hydralurkling not too infrequently in ZvT. More often than most Zerg player.
Really? Can you point to any games? I see him do it against mech but obviously its standard against mech and bio --> mech transition
On May 01 2011 05:20 Release wrote:
On May 01 2011 02:07 loveeholicce wrote: Well it depends on the matchup, and even in the matchup it depends on the situation. Some units are just universally useless (ex. the scout). Some units are useless but have niche roles (ex. valkyries can be used in rare situations in TvZ to combat mass muta, especially when you go mech) Most units though are just highly matchup specific. For example: - you only see MnM in TvZ - Hydras are worthless vs bio TvZ - Corsairs in anything but PvZ suck, but in PvZ theyre a staple unit - Science vessels don't get used in TvT 90% of the time - Battlecruisers are bad in everything but TvT (and VERY rarely TvZ) - Arbiters are only used in PvT Etc
Deep Six Hydras under swarm with lurkers can kill marines while they run Corsairs can be used against Hiya if he goes 3 port wraith Science Vessels are used in super late game to stop yamatos BCs are used to solidify advantages in TvZ and/or BM. Arbiters were almost used in PvZ when stork defended a hydra bust from kwanro.
There's a difference between very rare and never (I was talking about rare) How often do we see deep six? Very very rarely. Corsairs are very rare in TvP and Hiya's 3 port wraith TvP build has been used once in starcraft's 10+ year professional history. It's hardly a case for the unit being common in the matchup. Science vessels I'll agree. BCs, like I said, are used rarely in TvZ (like I directly said that....) They were also used twice by Flying (once vs yellow, once vs effort) but theyre not a standard PvZ unit by any means. I could probably count on my hands how many times I remember arbiters being used in a korean pro game PvZ. Not sure wat ur really getting at
jaedong used hydras vs mnm against light recently
Didn't light open wraiths that game though? You're supposed to supplement your army with hydras in that case
He was talking about their most recent game on Bloody Ridge. (Light didn't open wraiths there)
Have there been any uses of lockdown outside of TvT? Btw I think it's pretty funny that the archive of pro games is now so deep that you can find pretty much anything used.
On May 01 2011 08:36 Turgid wrote: Have there been any uses of lockdown outside of TvT? Btw I think it's pretty funny that the archive of pro games is now so deep that you can find pretty much anything used.
Quite a few times in TvP : that boxer carrier lockdown pimpest play, Hiya vs Free on triathlon and Leta vs Free on HB Ridge if i'm not mistaken.
Then again, that does not mean it's totally useless. I remember there was a game of Stork vs. (some zerg) in a GomTV game which Stork made a Scout. It wasn't that Stork was trying to humiliate him; it was because Stork got all-in rushed and Scout was the best thing he could make. It was very effectively made, as it killed tons of drones and made the zerg make a lot of aa.
On May 01 2011 08:36 Turgid wrote: Have there been any uses of lockdown outside of TvT? Btw I think it's pretty funny that the archive of pro games is now so deep that you can find pretty much anything used.
Scouts are the designed counter against BCs and Carriers. It's just that you don't see them vP anyways so Scouts have no business showing up ^^ Sometimes there are desperation situations where Protoss makes a Scout to stay alive.. like Kal vs ForGG MSL where Kal used it to hold off some sort of timing push. Also in low numbers, Scouts are better at killing Overlords than Corsairs, so Scouts can be extremely effective as part of a 1-base PvZ strategy.
Ghosts.. had some uses in TvZ for nuking (a game on Monte Cristo recently), and in TvT they are good in long-game-low-econ situations. Also Ghosts saw some small popularity in TvP some months ago.. like Ruby used them to great effect against Jangbi. Ghosts imo are too underused, Ghost-mech play will be the next revolution in TvP ;o
Dark Archons show up in PvP sometimes and are really good for crippling the other army's HTs or mind controlling in low-econ situations. In PvZ they show up sometimes, for feedback or maelstrom.. and Jaehoon made a DA once in PvT to mindcontrol a vessel (............)
Wraiths are pretty common in TvT and 2port in TvZ happens every so often. Sometimes a surprise/desperation counter to Carriers (or Hiya uses them to harass..)
Valks show up in TvTs when there's too many Wraiths on the other side.. and there's the Valkionic timing push which rapes Muta openings in TvZ. Pretty useless in TvP lol
Devourers are pretty rare, but they are seen most in ZvZ hive-play. ZvT they are used to help fight BCs and in ZvP they come into play if Protoss goes for Corsair-Carrier-Reaver.
Queens we already know what they can do, but to reiterate mainly used for Broodlings in ZvT and ZvP, and Ensnare in ZvZ. Sometimes ensnare is used in ZvT and ZvP, but its not that good.. and in lategame ZvZ Queens can broodling key Lurkers/Defilers/Ultras.
Infested Terran is imba vP ^^
think that's all the "rarely used" units in BW lol
Really used ghosts and lockdown in TvP a few times.
Valks vs carriers is just one of those theory craft things that doesn't work in practice, they suck and hardly fire when interceptors are on the screen. Plus they are very expensive units that get immediately killed.
On May 01 2011 01:57 GG.NoRe wrote: Infested Terrans
lol completely forgot about infested terrans. command centres are infested all the time but infested terrans are so rarely used. i think i've only ever seen them in PvZ on holy world lol
huh...? it's physically impossible to get infested terrans in pvz. there ain't command centers to infest... am I missing something?
On May 01 2011 08:36 Turgid wrote: Have there been any uses of lockdown outside of TvT? Btw I think it's pretty funny that the archive of pro games is now so deep that you can find pretty much anything used.
On May 01 2011 01:57 GG.NoRe wrote: Infested Terrans
lol completely forgot about infested terrans. command centres are infested all the time but infested terrans are so rarely used. i think i've only ever seen them in PvZ on holy world lol
huh...? it's physically impossible to get infested terrans in pvz. there ain't command centers to infest... am I missing something?
Look up the map "holy world"
I think it was zero that used infested terran on that map.
On May 01 2011 08:45 phosphorylation wrote: How about 4-5 valks to "soften" the interceptors and the rest goliaths to clean them up?
The reason valkyries arent really used is because once the map gets filled out with sprites they wont fire, and this can happen quite frequently, leaving you with some 3 supply units that cant even shoot
For Zerg I think only the devourer hasn't seen much use. It's not that they are bad for their air to air purposes I think, it's just that large scale air to air engagements just don't happen all that often in zerg matchups and the sort of anti-air anti-harass roles that needs to be filled - stopping drop harass, shuttles etc, are better suited by the more mobile scourge.
For protoss the scout is the single most unused unit hands down, nothing else comes close. Although some amateur did beat Gorush in an Iccup game using the stove.. so. Dark Archons are used in PvP to feedback high templars and in PvZ for maelstrom.
For Terran I think the most unused units are ghosts and nukes. There is the occasional instances of lock-downs, but they are rare. Wraiths are used in TvZ (2 port wraiths), TvT as hard counter to BCs, and the occasional hard counter to shuttle harass in TvP. Valkyries are used in TvZ and TvT.
There was a game where Action used hydra/lurk/defiler against Flash and even though Flash won he looked worried since the game was so close. That composition is rare in ZvT but it's pretty neat to witness.
Even though we don't see certain units, they still get used more than Scouts and Ghosts. I would absolutely love to see those units used more but Scouts are too expensive and I'm not too sure about Ghosts.
Scouts aren't the most unused unit in BW. The fact that they are the best BM unit in the game means that they are used often in all-star games, to persuade (humiliate/embarrass) a losing opponent to gg already or if you just plain want to BM somebody. I think Bisu and Stork have done the latter to some crappy players they are certain they will beat.
Would this have been a situation where scouts would be useful? Basically Flash went mass drop with tanks and vultures. I would think that building 1-2 scouts (Best was going for Arbiters, so he had a Stargate anyways) would greatly put a deterrence on the drop harass and unlike corsairs, would be able to to fire upon the ground units as well, forcing goliaths which would be less useful for Flash at that stage of the game.
On May 01 2011 08:45 phosphorylation wrote: How about 4-5 valks to "soften" the interceptors and the rest goliaths to clean them up?
The reason valkyries arent really used is because once the map gets filled out with sprites they wont fire, and this can happen quite frequently, leaving you with some 3 supply units that cant even shoot
Stork used a scout in a PvZ once. It was pretty cool.
The Z went for a three hat hydra bust or something. It became a really close low-econ game, and Stork popped a scout to stop mining at the Z's nat while holding off the all-in.
On May 01 2011 13:14 PH wrote: Stork used a scout in a PvZ once. It was pretty cool.
The Z went for a three hat hydra bust or something. It became a really close low-econ game, and Stork popped a scout to stop mining at the Z's nat while holding off the all-in.
Stork used a scout in a PvZ once against his ex-teammate.
The Z went for a ninja island expansion or something. It became a really close low-econ game but the zerg made spores so Storks' scouts couldn't do anything
On May 01 2011 13:47 thoradycus wrote: Other than TvZ, firebats have no use AT ALL in TvT and TvP.
hmm, I saw lomo make a few in some TvT a few months ago
they're good at killing workers and zealots (and I suppose archons as well... lol.) Though yes they're very rare. (firebat drop instead of vulture drop would be hilarious though... 6 firebat 2 medic :O!)
On May 01 2011 08:45 phosphorylation wrote: How about 4-5 valks to "soften" the interceptors and the rest goliaths to clean them up?
The reason valkyries arent really used is because once the map gets filled out with sprites they wont fire, and this can happen quite frequently, leaving you with some 3 supply units that cant even shoot
Is there a reason Blizzard never patched this?
It is a bug, or maybe a limit, in the engine, they would have to rework the whole game to fix it
All units minus workers Terran - marine, medic, firebat, ghost, vulture, tank, goalith, science vessel, wraith, valk, dropship, bc Protoss - zealot, dragoon, ht, dt, dark archon, archon, obs, shuttle, reaver, scout, corsair, carrier, arbiter Zerg - ling, hydra, muta, guard, devourer, lurker, queen, cow, defiler, scourge
TvT Standard units - marine, vulture, tank, goalith, dropship (for standard builds) wraiths are somewhat common too, there are a couple openings with them medics and firebats are basically never seen. ghosts can be used for nukes but thats it valks are used to counter mass wraith, so theyre kinda rare late game can go into bc, and science vessels are used to emp the bcs
PvP Standard units - zealot, dragoon, ht, dt, archon, obs, shuttle, reaver dark archons are sometimes used to snipe ht scouts are virtually useless carriers are never reached either... i think ive seen them once by Anytime (lol one base carriers) arbiters are too late game too... but ive seen them twice i think
ZvZ Standard units - ling, muta, ling, muta, scourge every other unit is potentially used in late game
TvP T Standard - marine, vulture, tank, goalith, science vessel (counter arbs), dropships MnM is basically only used as a surprise IMA KILL YOU play. otherwise they get raped by ht and reavers. medics are sometimes used to blind obs. ghosts sometimes lockdown or nuke (hiya) wraiths get raped by goons... but hiya used them valks are worthless.. and bcs are not cost effective P Standard - zealot, goon, ht, dt, obs, shuttle, reaver, carrier arbiter (late game) dark archons are basically useless as are scouts archons melt to science vessel emps, but they are sometimes used... corsairs have been used before i think? for the dweb... but very rare nowadays
TvZ T Standard - marine, medic (MnM), goalith, tank, vulture (mech), science vessel, dropship wraiths are sometimes used on 2port openings, valks are used in some openings too against mutas firebats are mixed in sometimes against swarm, ghosts are only for nukes bcs are very rare but occasionally used Z Standard - ling, muta, lurker, defiler, scourge, cow hydras used for lurkers... and also against mech or late game hydra+swarm combo guardians are used for surprise buttsecks. devourers are very rarely used... queens arent used very often, but zero/soulkey have been using them recently against mech
PvZ P Standard - lot, goon, ht, dt, archon, obs, shuttle, reaver, corsair dark archons are sometimes used for feedback or maletrom on muta stacks scouts just blow carriers/abs are rarely ever used Z Standard - ling, hydra, muta, lurker, cow, defiler, scourge queens serve almost no purpose, maybe to slow an army but i havent seen them guards are used rarely in tech switches or super turtle toss... but rarely devourers are useless mostly (maybe seen once??)
I thought it was Much who did 1 base carrier vs Bisu. We also saw Bisu using scouts to counter the carriers that game. Carriers used to be used quite a lot in pvps, but not now. Maybe pvp has evolved to the stage where the timing window that can build carriers are very small.
On May 01 2011 01:57 GG.NoRe wrote: Infested Terrans
lol completely forgot about infested terrans. command centres are infested all the time but infested terrans are so rarely used. i think i've only ever seen them in PvZ on holy world lol
How on earth did you see them in a PvZ O.o
Scouts are great units because unlike ghosts and devourers they have no legitimate use, at least the others fit into a niche no matter how small. As soon as you see scouts you know its to make fun of the opponent
On May 01 2011 01:57 GG.NoRe wrote: Infested Terrans
lol completely forgot about infested terrans. command centres are infested all the time but infested terrans are so rarely used. i think i've only ever seen them in PvZ on holy world lol
How on earth did you see them in a PvZ O.o
It may seem like it's impossible, but ZerO made it happen
On May 01 2011 08:45 phosphorylation wrote: How about 4-5 valks to "soften" the interceptors and the rest goliaths to clean them up?
The reason valkyries arent really used is because once the map gets filled out with sprites they wont fire, and this can happen quite frequently, leaving you with some 3 supply units that cant even shoot
Is there a reason Blizzard never patched this?
It is a bug, or maybe a limit, in the engine, they would have to rework the whole game to fix it
its an engine limit, BW cant handle more than a certain amount
I saw a super late game pvp a year or 2 ago where the map was mined out and both players were basically relying on da mind controls to steal the other guy's carriers.
i think someday we will see more scout use. Gotta remember that 2 years ago, wraith to counter shuttle harass was considered laughable. I think scouts can be used to protect the shuttle and counter the wraith.
i also think they could see more use in pvz. Starcraft 무환도전 on MBC broadcast a game where some amateur massed scouts and proceeded to rape every zerg unit thrown at it. If you have enough scouts, like 24, they can kill everything zerg has to defend against it besides mass devourers + mutas.
On May 06 2011 11:11 d_so wrote: i think someday we will see more scout use. Gotta remember that 2 years ago, wraith to counter shuttle harass was considered laughable. I think scouts can be used to protect the shuttle and counter the wraith.
i also think they could see more use in pvz. Starcraft 무환도전 on MBC broadcast a game where some amateur massed scouts and proceeded to rape every zerg unit thrown at it. If you have enough scouts, like 24, they can kill everything zerg has to defend against it besides mass devourers + mutas.
The problem is the existence of the corsair, sair shuttle reaver is already a known build, scouts are slower (until you get upgrade) and has no splash, the vs ground damage is too low especially if you're using it to protect a shuttle reaver.
On May 06 2011 11:11 d_so wrote: i think someday we will see more scout use. Gotta remember that 2 years ago, wraith to counter shuttle harass was considered laughable. I think scouts can be used to protect the shuttle and counter the wraith.
i also think they could see more use in pvz. Starcraft 무환도전 on MBC broadcast a game where some amateur massed scouts and proceeded to rape every zerg unit thrown at it. If you have enough scouts, like 24, they can kill everything zerg has to defend against it besides mass devourers + mutas.
wasnt a single wraith a pretty standard counter to shuttle harass going way back? I could of swore i remember watching some old PvTs (like 2002-2005) where terran (either nada/boxer/cloud/midas i think) made a wraith to counter shuttle. i think it went a little out of style for a while during 2007-2008, but came back.
Scouts are the only useless unit, all other units have potential uses in certain situations. I think infested terrans are really under rated. I think they are never used because its usually a rare event to see a queen, but a queen that actually infests a command center, that has gotta be 1 in a hundred thousand. And then building an infested terran? Either a joke or the point in the game were it doesn't really matter. But if they were more accessible, I'm sure they would be used much more frequently. I mean hold position lurkers are bad enough for bio, but burrowed infested terrans would drive you nuts, or even infested terran drops. I mean the only thing SC2 did with the infested terran is made it easier to obtained (banelings), and they are used very frequently.
On May 06 2011 11:11 d_so wrote: i think someday we will see more scout use. Gotta remember that 2 years ago, wraith to counter shuttle harass was considered laughable. I think scouts can be used to protect the shuttle and counter the wraith.
i also think they could see more use in pvz. Starcraft 무환도전 on MBC broadcast a game where some amateur massed scouts and proceeded to rape every zerg unit thrown at it. If you have enough scouts, like 24, they can kill everything zerg has to defend against it besides mass devourers + mutas.
wasnt a single wraith a pretty standard counter to shuttle harass going way back? I could of swore i remember watching some old PvTs (like 2002-2005) where terran (either nada/boxer/cloud/midas i think) made a wraith to counter shuttle. i think it went a little out of style for a while during 2007-2008, but came back.
maybe, since my history only goes back to 2007 you're probably right
dark archons, ghosts, devolours, valks and queens all have their role in the game,
-dark archons can end stalmates and hard counter mass carriers in pvp -ghosts with nukes help end stalmates in tvt and lockdown can be used to counter carriers to some extent -devourers counter mass cosairs with carriers -valks counter mass mutas and other air units. -queen usage as gone up lately to counter mech, before it was used for ensnare to counter cosair carrier
scouts are the only unit that seem to lack any type of role, i suppose scouts are kinda good against guardians, well at least better than sairs since guardians have 2 armor which makes sairs take ages to kill them. other than that scouts are pretty much useless.
I'm not sure but has Terran Structures lifting off and then landing down on Interceptors (destroying them) ever been used in a televised match?
If you did not know or simply forgot, Terran structures could destroy intercepts by landing on them >.> (or that is by landing while interceptors are occupying the same space as the landing structure).
On May 08 2011 08:48 Goldfish wrote: I'm not sure but has Terran Structures lifting off and then landing down on Interceptors (destroying them) ever been used in a televised match?
If you did not know or simply forgot, Terran structures could destroy intercepts by landing on them >.> (or that is by landing while interceptors are occupying the same space as the landing structure).
Only seen that in a boxer highlight movie from years ago. It was probably televised but doubt there's a vod. I'm pretty sure the glitch still exists and afaik there is no iccup or kespa ruling against it.
can anyone recall that pvz it was g5 v some korean pro zerg i think it was in g5's TSL1 reppack but not sure. g5 used awesome scout micro against muta/devourer/guardian i think.
EPT
Deep Six
