Jaedong now holds the title of having the most wins in official matches held under KeSPA. With his proleague win over Saint on wednesday, Jaedong's record is 376 wins out of 551 matches. The previous holder of the title was none other than NaDa, with 375W-254L.
Wow awesome, though on other hand... another great and legendary record of old players (NaDa) beaten...
But I'm surprised that I see the players involved in match fixing scandal be part of the statistics. I thought all records and their traces were completely removed from KeSPA history..
The full list that i have there is from the DCinside jaedong gallery. So it may or may not be an official KeSPA document. I checked a few names to see if they were right, so I just decided to add it to the post.
love to see some of the old name even though they haven't play an official game of SC I in so long , but they're still up there along with the current best.
Flash and Jaedong's win % just so much higher than everyone else. Really shows how far above the rest they are.
Flash being over 70% in all three matches is just absolutely ridiculous. They're playing in an era which is arguably much more competitive and difficult as well.
On April 28 2011 15:41 stafu wrote: Flash and Jaedong's win % just so much higher than everyone else. Really shows how far above the rest they are.
Flash being over 70% in all three matches is just absolutely ridiculous. They're playing in an era which is arguably much more competitive and difficult as well.
Yep.
This is going by TLPD's numbers for standard leagues, so this doesn't match-up to KeSPA's numbers, but still:
Still amazing how well JD and Flash are holding up. Four or five years into most players' careers and they're holding onto their winning percentage from the sheer inertia of playing much fewer games. Flash's numbers are like the numbers that Nada and oov only managed for a short time at the start of their careers, and Jaedong's are only a tick below that.
Sick percentages and record. But it also shows how much more games that progamers today have to play especially if you are very good like Flash and Jaedong. in 5 years, JD get as many wins as Nada did in around 9-10 years.
Not taking away from JD's achievement but i do feel Nada could have gotten much more win during his very very dominant years if there were as many games then.But of course JD excels in an era where its much more competitive ( and Flash exists)
On April 28 2011 16:38 dtz wrote:Not taking away from JD's achievement but i do feel Nada could have gotten much more win during his very very dominant years if there were as many games then.But of course JD excels in an era where its much more competitive ( and Flash exists)
Going by TLPD's numbers:
Flash: March 15, 2007 through April 25, 2011 (4 Years, 1 Month, and change) - 390 - 151 (72.09%)
Nada: March 03, 2001 through April 13, 2005 (4 Years, 1 Month, and change) - 289 - 145 (66.59%)
Jaedong: February 13, 2006 through April 27, 2011 (5 Years 2 Months, and change) - 425 - 196 (68.44%)
Nada: March 03, 2001 through May 13, 2005 (5 Years, 2 Months, and change) - 316 - 167 (65.42%)
So if they had played the same number of games, Nada would still be ahead overall, yeah, but comparing them at similar points in their careers and it'd still look better for Flash / JD in the long term.
On April 28 2011 14:31 vectorix108 wrote: wow that's pretty cool! I had always thought Flash was at the top.
Jaedong was around for a good year before Flash was.
+Flash started a LOT younger than Jaedong so JD would rust/grow old/retire earlier and by the time both retires, Flash will definitely be ahead. Same goes with Sea, but he isn't as good as Flash, so he's only top 6. Lol at Nada 254 loss :p.
Jaedong may be winning, but Flash is only 33 wins behind, with 72 games yet to be played to catch up to Jaedong. even if he wins less than 50% of his next 72 games he will be infront, but the form that he is in now i wouldnt be suprised if he gets ontop with 39 games in hand
On April 28 2011 21:08 Mortician wrote: To be honest, I am more amazed the the Win/Loss ratio of flash, that guts has 100 less games and almost the same amount of wins.
In the past years, the incredibly dominant players have been Savior, Jaedong and Flash. I agree Protoss are a bit behind, although Bisu can arguably be considered as the fourth on the list. It's fairly balanced I guess.
It's also so dependant of the map pool. Remember the time of the six dragons, nobody would have said toss was unfavourably balanced.
EDIT: lol 198 includes 5(?) unofficial games. Go JD!
I'd be kind of entertained if Jaedong lost his WeMade match to Midas, thus giving Midas his 200th overall win (instead of JD getting his 200th PL win). Baby Bear hwaiting.
On the other hand, can't deny the Dong so it's unlikely to happen.
EDIT: lol 198 includes 5(?) unofficial games. Go JD!
Flash is at 188 or something like that cause KeSPA counts post season wins separately. Jaedong would have 200+ if you count post season stuff i'm pretty sure.
On April 29 2011 00:52 sixfour wrote: This is nice, but I kind of ignore sorts of things like this that partly award quantity rather than quality (see Favre, Brett)
I don't think that's true - they have more quantity of overall games because of their quality as players - they get fielded more often to play Proleague games and they go further in individual leagues (so they play more BoXs).
On April 28 2011 14:51 buhhy wrote: Lol Flash still has a higher win ratio :D Not surprised
Of course, he plays terran.
Anyway, GOOOOOO JAEDONG!!!!!!! Looking over these records, it's ridiculous how far past everyone else jd/flash are. Having a 10% higher win rate over these other pros isn't just being 10% better, it's like 10x. Just amazing.
On April 28 2011 14:51 buhhy wrote: Lol Flash still has a higher win ratio :D Not surprised
Of course, he plays terran.
Anyway, GOOOOOO JAEDONG!!!!!!! Looking over these records, it's ridiculous how far past everyone else jd/flash are. Having a 10% higher win rate over these other pros isn't just being 10% better, it's like 10x. Just amazing.
Yeah your right he plays terran, thats why every terran has 70% + win ratio, oh wait no one has that. But when Jaedong has close to that its skill hahah your funny
On April 29 2011 00:52 sixfour wrote: This is nice, but I kind of ignore sorts of things like this that partly award quantity rather than quality (see Favre, Brett)
I don't think that's true - they have more quantity of overall games because of their quality as players - they get fielded more often to play Proleague games and they go further in individual leagues (so they play more BoXs).
To some extent, yes, then you have a player in the top 20 that loses more than he wins. People also play more nowadays (how many wins would Boxer have if they had today's Proleague back in ~2001), so it reads as a list of who's the best today, and those that have stuck around forever (big chunk of the list reads like a who's who on ACE)
I like how the top 5 are TBLS+NaDa. I'm very happy for Jaedong. I can't believe he has been so consistent for so long. It's sad to see that if the trend continues then Jaedong won't be holding on to the record for as long as NaDa was.
On April 29 2011 00:52 sixfour wrote: This is nice, but I kind of ignore sorts of things like this that partly award quantity rather than quality (see Favre, Brett)
I don't think that's true - they have more quantity of overall games because of their quality as players - they get fielded more often to play Proleague games and they go further in individual leagues (so they play more BoXs).
To some extent, yes, then you have a player in the top 20 that loses more than he wins. People also play more nowadays (how many wins would Boxer have if they had today's Proleague back in ~2001), so it reads as a list of who's the best today, and those that have stuck around forever (big chunk of the list reads like a who's who on ACE)
Right, I'm not saying you can't take the era they played in (and therefore the number of games they had the opportunity to play) into account. I do see what you mean about how it rewards the higher quantity of games overall today. I just was thinking about in general the idea that it was rewarding quantity over quality, not so much that it was rewarding the higher quantity of games in a specific era.
Also I don't actually think that sticking around forever does much more than slightly pad the records. Most of those players actually don't play that many games these days, I don't think.
On April 28 2011 14:51 buhhy wrote: Lol Flash still has a higher win ratio :D Not surprised
Of course, he plays terran.
Anyway, GOOOOOO JAEDONG!!!!!!! Looking over these records, it's ridiculous how far past everyone else jd/flash are. Having a 10% higher win rate over these other pros isn't just being 10% better, it's like 10x. Just amazing.
Yeah your right he plays terran, thats why every terran has 70% + win ratio, oh wait no one has that. But when Jaedong has close to that its skill hahah your funny
Of course Flash is the most skilled. But it also helps than Terran has safest macro openings. Doesn't need an expert to see that... T is definitely the most consistent at the highest levels. While P definitely the least consistent, but Z can have a tough time in ZvT and Zergs also have to play ZvZ which can be volatile compared to TvT.
Effort is the only low game count person to have like 60% win rate, pretty sick. Grats to jaedong for kicking ass for so long. Flash, Bisu, and Jaedong seem to have pretty high game counts and great win %.
On April 29 2011 03:38 Chimpalimp wrote: Effort is the only low game count person to have like 60% win rate, pretty sick. Grats to jaedong for kicking ass for so long. Flash, Bisu, and Jaedong seem to have pretty high game counts and great win %.
Hopefully he'll get a chance to amend that to being a high game count person with 60%+!
I hope people don't judge how good of a player is/was solely based on the OP. Playing more games also tends to 'stabilize' your W/L ratio (afaik JD's W/L ratio was around 69.4?% 09-10 season). Second, many, if not majority of the players listed are retired. So naturally their W/L ratio would tend to fall as they near the end of their careers. For instance, Nada was able to maintain a near 60% W/L ratio 8 years after his Panasonic days, which is in itself jawdropping (although Nada's always the exception to the rule...).
Also keep in mind that older players played less number of games in their prime compared to some of the younger players. Players like Sea or Stork who started playing in 2004 - their 60% over the span of 7 years should be given more credit for consistency even if similar number of games were played over players whose debut was only 2 or 3 years ago.
That being said, I don't think claims like quality > quantity does justice to these players. Can Flash/JD maintain their 70% ratios near the end of their careers? more likely than not. But let's give credit to those old timers too, yeah?
NaDa will make up for this by getting the first GSL golden mouse, starting by winning this season. Since he should be on summer break from university, he'll be able to practice again and will dominate the summer.
On April 29 2011 04:26 Sillylaughs wrote: I hope people don't judge how good of a player is/was solely based on the OP. Playing more games also tends to 'stabilize' your W/L ratio (afaik JD's W/L ratio was around 69.4?% 09-10 season). Second, many, if not majority of the players listed are retired. So naturally their W/L ratio would tend to fall as they near the end of their careers. For instance, Nada was able to maintain a near 60% W/L ratio 8 years after his Panasonic days, which is in itself jawdropping (although Nada's always the exception to the rule...).
Also keep in mind that older players played less number of games in their prime compared to some of the younger players. Players like Sea or Stork who started playing in 2004 - their 60% over the span of 7 years should be given more credit for consistency even if similar number of games were played over players whose debut was only 2 or 3 years ago.
That being said, I don't think claims like quality > quantity does justice to these players. Can Flash/JD maintain their 70% ratios near the end of their careers? more likely than not. But let's give credit to those old timers too, yeah?
This man deserves a cookie. Couldn't have said it any better. With that said, this is momentous occassion for Jaedong. Let's not turn this into a Flash versus Jaedong thread like every other one.
Many more games are played these days so its no surprise that players who were totally unknown 5-6 years ago are ahead of players who were dominant for 7-8 years.
On April 29 2011 04:26 Sillylaughs wrote: So naturally their W/L ratio would tend to fall as they near the end of their careers. For instance, Nada was able to maintain a near 60% W/L ratio 8 years after his Panasonic days, which is in itself jawdropping (although Nada's always the exception to the rule...).
I think this goes back to what you mentioned about more games causes stabilization; it causes a sort of inertia in late in a player's career. You mentioned Nada had 65.20% (311 - 166) five years into his career; the main reason he stayed above 60% wasn't because he did well those last three years (he went 128 - 124), but because there were so many games played before that. Midas is sort of like that, as well, with 62.25% (188 - 114) four years into his career. He's gone 48 - 53 since then (June 2008 - March 2011), but he's still maintained fairly well.
I think that's what's more impressive about Flash and Jaedong (graphs):
Nada's first five years compared with Flash and Jaedong's careers. Flash and Jaedong are maintaining or increasing (Flash) their lifetime winning percentages, because they are still winning as much as they ever were. Their longevity and stability is insane, really.
On April 29 2011 04:36 Telcontar wrote: Why are Flash fans always trying to pick a fight? Are you guys that incapable of being happy for other progamers?
This is true, and aggravated me quite a bit while reading through this thread.
It's a shame NaDa even left considering he still definitely could compete at the top. He even won his last BW game. Wemade Fox could probably use him in a player coach role at least. I doubt he's even making more money in SC2?
On April 29 2011 04:26 Sillylaughs wrote: So naturally their W/L ratio would tend to fall as they near the end of their careers. For instance, Nada was able to maintain a near 60% W/L ratio 8 years after his Panasonic days, which is in itself jawdropping (although Nada's always the exception to the rule...).
I think this goes back to what you mentioned about more games causes stabilization; it causes a sort of inertia in late in a player's career. You mentioned Nada had 65.20% (311 - 166) five years into his career; the main reason he stayed above 60% wasn't because he did well those last three years (he went 128 - 124), but because there were so many games played before that. Midas is sort of like that, as well, with 62.25% (188 - 114) four years into his career. He's gone 48 - 53 since then (June 2008 - March 2011), but he's still maintained fairly well.
I think that's what's more impressive about Flash and Jaedong (graphs):
Nada's first five years compared with Flash and Jaedong's careers. Flash and Jaedong are maintaining or increasing (Flash) their lifetime winning percentages, because they are still winning as much as they ever were. Their longevity and stability is insane, really.
The game has changed though. For instance, when NaDa finally perfected his TvP style it only lasted for less than a year before becoming obsolete. Flash's current TvP style has been stable for almost 2 years now, and his style from before that would still be workable today, albeit not with the level of dominance that his current style shows. For NaDa, who began his career with 2 factory play (pioneering the most stable 2 factory style for his time), then "perfecting" the 200/200 push shortly before his gold grand slam... and even then had to rework his style many times over the years... it was a very different story.
This isn't to take away from the accomplishments of Flash and Jaedong (name any other Terran who has mastered Flash's TvP style?), but to say that the eras in which they peaked and -- correspondingly, the skills required to be successful in those eras -- are fundamentally different.
On April 29 2011 07:19 infinity2k9 wrote: It's a shame NaDa even left considering he still definitely could compete at the top. He even won his last BW game. Wemade Fox could probably use him in a player coach role at least. I doubt he's even making more money in SC2?
I think he didn't care about the money, he wanted to go study in the first place. And he definitely couldn't while playing bw. And iirc he said somewhere he grew tired of bw and wanted to test something new out.
Mostly has to do with the number of games played (e.g. most games vs. T, P, Z...) Other than his number of titles (6) and finals (10):
Shortest time from debut to KeSPA rank #1 (14 months); 2nd: Flash (16 months) Number of individual leagues qualified (28 times); 2nd: Bisu (24 times) (as of 03/31/11)
On April 29 2011 07:19 infinity2k9 wrote: It's a shame NaDa even left considering he still definitely could compete at the top. He even won his last BW game. Wemade Fox could probably use him in a player coach role at least. I doubt he's even making more money in SC2?
Nada wants life as progamer, not coach... SC2 is more comfortable to play for old players who declined their physical move because BW needs more physical move than SC2.
On April 29 2011 07:19 infinity2k9 wrote: It's a shame NaDa even left considering he still definitely could compete at the top. He even won his last BW game. Wemade Fox could probably use him in a player coach role at least. I doubt he's even making more money in SC2?
He wouldnt be able to attend uni and play bw at any level near the top considering he is pretty mediocore in sc2 because of his lack of practise ( obviously by mediocore i mean what he would have been as a player if he was practising full time ) :D
Wow...The jump of wins from Sea to Bisu is so high. I mean it was going up steadily at around a pace of 1-5 wins, then a jump of 50 wins appears. That shows how dominant these players are/were.
On April 29 2011 07:21 Mortality wrote:The game has changed though. For instance, when NaDa finally perfected his TvP style it only lasted for less than a year before becoming obsolete. Flash's current TvP style has been stable for almost 2 years now, and his style from before that would still be workable today, albeit not with the level of dominance that his current style shows. For NaDa, who began his career with 2 factory play (pioneering the most stable 2 factory style for his time), then "perfecting" the 200/200 push shortly before his gold grand slam... and even then had to rework his style many times over the years... it was a very different story.
This isn't to take away from the accomplishments of Flash and Jaedong (name any other Terran who has mastered Flash's TvP style?), but to say that the eras in which they peaked and -- correspondingly, the skills required to be successful in those eras -- are fundamentally different.
There is that element of "standing on the shoulders of giants," yeah.
I wish I had followed Brood War back then. I mean, I watched replays, back when they were more readily acquired, and VODs for a year or so after that, but I didn't really keep up with the scene, as it were.
On April 29 2011 13:53 BisuDagger wrote: Flash and JD will wash out while Bisu steadily gains Bonjwa status and set all the records in the name of the Toss Gods.
he'll never win an individual league until he switches away from SKT
On April 28 2011 14:51 buhhy wrote: Lol Flash still has a higher win ratio :D Not surprised
Of course, he plays terran.
Anyway, GOOOOOO JAEDONG!!!!!!! Looking over these records, it's ridiculous how far past everyone else jd/flash are. Having a 10% higher win rate over these other pros isn't just being 10% better, it's like 10x. Just amazing.
Yeah your right he plays terran, thats why every terran has 70% + win ratio, oh wait no one has that. But when Jaedong has close to that its skill hahah your funny
Of course Flash is the most skilled. But it also helps than Terran has safest macro openings. Doesn't need an expert to see that... T is definitely the most consistent at the highest levels. While P definitely the least consistent, but Z can have a tough time in ZvT and Zergs also have to play ZvZ which can be volatile compared to TvT.
JD in ZvZ a year or two ago was the most dominant mirror matchup player in the history of the game.. based on that you could say that the "natural" skill, that which is unrelated to exploiting matchup asymmetries, is the best in him(80% zvz doesnt seem very volatile to me :p).
On April 28 2011 14:51 buhhy wrote: Lol Flash still has a higher win ratio :D Not surprised
Of course, he plays terran.
Anyway, GOOOOOO JAEDONG!!!!!!! Looking over these records, it's ridiculous how far past everyone else jd/flash are. Having a 10% higher win rate over these other pros isn't just being 10% better, it's like 10x. Just amazing.
Yeah your right he plays terran, thats why every terran has 70% + win ratio, oh wait no one has that. But when Jaedong has close to that its skill hahah your funny
Of course Flash is the most skilled. But it also helps than Terran has safest macro openings. Doesn't need an expert to see that... T is definitely the most consistent at the highest levels. While P definitely the least consistent, but Z can have a tough time in ZvT and Zergs also have to play ZvZ which can be volatile compared to TvT.
JD in ZvZ a year or two ago was the most dominant mirror matchup player in the history of the game.. based on that you could say that the "natural" skill, that which is unrelated to exploiting matchup asymmetries, is the best in him(80% zvz doesnt seem very volatile to me :p).
I'm aware of this which is why i'm careful with what i said.. A-class Z's have sort of caught up to him since the 80% days. I'd still call it volatile when you go rock paper scissors with your build order and get an immediate disadvantage/advantage, even if JD used to be able to overcome the disadvantages with pure micro. You can see Z's like ZerO who's excellent in everything but ZvZ.
but you can't deny that flash is crushing everyone and easily the best in the world atm, and what i tried to say was, that when he has played the same number of games Jaedong has, he will have a higher win ratio.
On April 28 2011 14:51 buhhy wrote: Lol Flash still has a higher win ratio :D Not surprised
Of course, he plays terran.
Anyway, GOOOOOO JAEDONG!!!!!!! Looking over these records, it's ridiculous how far past everyone else jd/flash are. Having a 10% higher win rate over these other pros isn't just being 10% better, it's like 10x. Just amazing.
Yeah your right he plays terran, thats why every terran has 70% + win ratio, oh wait no one has that. But when Jaedong has close to that its skill hahah your funny
Of course Flash is the most skilled. But it also helps than Terran has safest macro openings. Doesn't need an expert to see that... T is definitely the most consistent at the highest levels. While P definitely the least consistent, but Z can have a tough time in ZvT and Zergs also have to play ZvZ which can be volatile compared to TvT.
JD in ZvZ a year or two ago was the most dominant mirror matchup player in the history of the game.. based on that you could say that the "natural" skill, that which is unrelated to exploiting matchup asymmetries, is the best in him(80% zvz doesnt seem very volatile to me :p).
I'm aware of this which is why i'm careful with what i said.. A-class Z's have sort of caught up to him since the 80% days. I'd still call it volatile when you go rock paper scissors with your build order and get an immediate disadvantage/advantage, even if JD used to be able to overcome the disadvantages with pure micro. You can see Z's like ZerO who's excellent in everything but ZvZ.
When i look at Jaedong in the 80% days, and him at the 75% days, i see almost no difference. It's the other players that have caught up. Too many times, i've seen players losing by not having enough zerglings, not microing against scourge, bad scourge cloning, etc.
EPT
Saint on wednesday, Jaedong's record is 376 wins out of 551 matches. The previous holder of the title was none other than 
NaDa, with 375W-254L.
Stork 534전 321승 213패 60.1%![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/8XTXh.jpg)
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Players on the List = 22![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Zicon_small.png)
Players on the List = 15![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/Picon_small.png)
Players on the List = 13
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