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I found this article on PLU, and decided it was worth translating. Great stuff.
Who Will Save the Protoss?
![[image loading]](http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2963/52390666.jpg)
(I figured this excellent photo by NeverGG was appropriate!)
After the ZvP 3-base 5-hatch strategy came out in the Fall of 2008, Protoss entered a long dark age - any scrub Zerg was confident in his ZvP, and the Protoss vs Zerg statistics (particularly in televised matches) were a total mess. Upon further examination, the 3-base 5-hatch build (plus Zerg simcity) is arguably the single most important reason for the Protoss downfall.
Over the past two years, all Protoss have been trying to figure out how to defeat the 5 hatch style, from Kal's Reaver/Sair, to Bisu's mass Goon HT escort, to Movie's odd strategies, to brute force mass units - all were ultimately solved by the Zerg - meaning that these styles all had their flaws. Recently, the newest wave we've seen has been the effective use of Speedlots from Bisu, which so far doesn't appear to have been solved by Zerg yet. Examining Bisu's PvZ play might give us some insight on the matchup:
After the Zerg gets 3-base 5-hatch, they typically have three transitions: 1. switching between Mutas and Hydras, 2. Turtling on 4-base and getting Hive, 3. Lurker contain plus a variety of harassment. There are some variations, such as a sudden wave of Zerglings - a cautious Protoss has many ways to prepare himself, and we won't go into that in detail here.
The main responses from the Protoss are the Stargate-Citadel and Stargate-Robo openings. Kal's Stargate-Robo style has proven to be ineffective, particularly against S-class Zergs, so we will discuss some of the changes seen in matches with the Stargate-Citadel opening.
One of the things Protoss has to consider when choosing a build is how to effectively prepare for the Hydra-Muta transition - this is a fundamental problem that must be solved, and a reason why the Protoss don't seem to have much variety recently in play. In matches played over the past two years, we've seen Protoss gain some sort of advantage early on, only to be overwhelmed by Hydras later, a result of not reacting well to the transition. Let's recap traditional responses:
1. Jaystar (Chinese player) style +1 Speedlots: The core idea here is to hit the Zerg before the 3-base 5-hatches are fully complete, but this is a double edged sword that often hurts the Protoss more than it does the Zerg - if the Speedlots can't do enough damage then it's pretty much GG shortly afterwards.
2. In order to deal with mass Hydra effectively, HT are ideal, and so a key aspect of Protoss play is figuring out how to protect HTs from being sniped by the Muta ball. Bisu invented a strategy where he'd make a full-scale Goon switch to escort the HTs, and this worked out decently for awhile, but this kind of build is extremely gas intensive and limits the amount of Corsairs available to contest air superiority. In addition, it doesn't put much pressure on the Zerg in the early game, and so we've seen even greedier builds from the Zerg such as 3-base 6-hatch for an even stronger economic advantage, to the point where some Zergs would simply sack a control group of Mutas to snipe the HTs, and the Hydras would clean up the remaining Zealot-Goon;
3. As for Horang2's brute force style... it's certainly entertaining, but it's only useful against average Zerg players - Movie's various strategies are often good for one-time only, and aren't adequate to lift up the Protoss race overall.
4. Protoss also have Archons, which at first glance are awesome - Archons > Muta, Zealot > Hydra, but oftentimes we see Zergs scourging the Corsairs and then obliterating the Protoss ground forces with pure Hydra.
Let's take a look at some of the problems Protoss face in dealing with the 3-base 5-hatch style:
1. Insufficient gas - Protoss tech for countering Hydras is gas intensive. In particular, the fact that different units require different tech trees - Citadel, Stargate, Robotics - makes life extremely difficult. If stuck on two geysers, it's hard to maintain two tech trees - it's nearly impossible to maintain all three tech trees while keeping up with upgrades.
2. Lack of pressure on the Zerg in early game allows the Zerg to drone whore too easily, so by the time the mixed Protoss forces move out, they're oftentimes overwhelmed by mass - the Zerg simply "outspends" the Protoss in a battle of attrition easily.
Is there no perfect counter? Must the Protoss simply bow down before the Zerg? It's up to Bisu once more, in his return to glory, Fall 2010, restoring hope to the race. Bisu brought us an upgraded version of the Zealot-Archon-Corsir style - at the beginning of the season, commentators still had a little trouble figuring it out. Let's examine our understanding of his strategy here.
In the past, Protoss had a mistaken mentality; that Zealots couldn't fight against mass Hydra. We'd often see games where Zealots would fight Hydras at the Protoss choke backed up by cannons, ending with a ggyo. Now Bisu has come to tell us, "You've got it wrong. Here's a better idea: I don't rely on cannons, instead taking advantage of the Zealot's strength: speed and +1." One of the difficulties Protoss had with using Zealots against Hydras in a choke battle situation was that the Zealots couldn't spread out effectively, compounded by the fact that Hydras would clump easily, not allowing Zealots to use their speed. Now, Bisu's core strategy is to use +1 speedlots to take map control, engaging the Hydras before they can reach critical mass, using mobility, concentrating maximum strength on the opponent's weak points. (Part of Mao Zedong's strategy!)
With this mindset, Bisu's strategy starts to make sense - getting +1 speedlots without sacricing too much economy, not going for the kill but simply disrupting their economy while slowly accumulating Corsairs to challenge the air, taking out as many Overlords as possible. In midgame, utilizing a Zealot-Corsair mix (not even necessarily using Goons), plus a few Archons to take on Mutas, actively contesting map control, patrolling the center of the map (typically between the Zerg's main and 3rd), preventing the Zerg from organizing his Hydras into a critical mass, engaging one side at a time, forcing the Zerg to sacrifice economy for more sunkens and troops. At the same time, using the gas saved to tech up, get upgrades, and make more Corsairs. When HT tech is complete, it's time to take a 3rd, transitioning smoothly into late game, where Bisu has a good chance against anyone.
The keys to this strategy:
1. The first wave of Zealots can't die needlessly, and must be used carefully. If not confident in the odds, then hold back - some especially greedy Zergs will die right here;
2. Reinforcing Zealots must contest the center, controlling the area between the Zerg's nat and 3rd, stopping his troops from massing up, pressuring both sides with Speedlot mobility.
3. Corsairs have to survive [T/N lol Best is fucked], ready to engage Zerg air, jumping in to snipe Overlords when possible.
4. Taking the 3rd base relatively lately, waiting until the Protoss ball is fairly strong and mixed, or until you get an advantage.
In the past Bisu went pretty much 50-50 against Jaedong and wasn't particularly favored against any A-Class Zerg, but recently it seems that Bisu simply curbstomps the average Zerg. Currently Zerg has various responses to Bisu but all have fallen - of course, it remains to be seen how well such a strategy will hold up against an S-Class Zerg - we hope to see a Bisu vs Jaedong match soon!
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i believe "chen lao shi" is movie. they call him edison chen = baller
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who will save the protoss? ParalyzE
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On November 22 2010 23:53 LeoTheLion wrote:
i believe "chen lao shi" is movie. they call him edison chen = baller
Thanks, updated! (I'll take your word for it :p)
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虎狼 should be Horang2.
Hulang sounds similar to 'Horang'.
Edit: Typo.
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Thanks! you're right, this is pretty interesting. I found it weird how Bisu always seemed to have advantage while using speed lots, this explains it.
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Croatia9499 Posts
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Bisu is so 2007. Frotoss is 2010.
I'm so hyped !
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Nice analysis, even though you could mention other variations as the speedlot into expand (used by Anyppi vs Saint on Match Point, I bet that could work off too on circuit breakers where the min only is close by as well and the 4th also isnt that hard to take.
Except that I HIGHLY approve your points and analysis, gj
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
wo so interesting. GOGOGO PROTOSS sEASON!
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I'm Health_Wang.
The PLU's editor & SC commentator.
虎狼 is Horang2.
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Seriously? Paralyze? K I know he's really good for a rookie but the thread is about the recent trends in PvZ set by Bisu.
Basically Bisu's innovation is a change in mentality of the same build (citadel tech), instead of aiming for a timing attack, contest map control on the ground with zeals. Actually it can be compared to what Jaedong did with lair tech, he changed the way lair was used, Bisu is also adopting a different mentality in using the +1 speedzeals. Zeal/Archon/Corsair is a really effective combination against hydra->muta / Muta ling and after 1 or 2 archons the protoss is pretty much safe to take expos already. Quite interesting to be honest, as KT protoss style 3 base full tech is pretty shaky this season and doesn't seem to be quite effective against 4 base turtle zergs, and robo openings are still not really that effective.
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The maps also help a lot! dont forget about the interviews that bisu was famous for "AWWW THE MAPS ARE IMBA" when Bisu was shaping to be the next toss bonjwa it was when the maps were toss favored.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50118 Posts
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Croatia9499 Posts
On a more serious note, I really loved that analysis of Bisu's strategy. It's absolutely incredible how much the game is still evolving, with no end in sight.
I always thought that in PvZ the most important thing is map control. Pretty much like Bisu is doing with his speed lots. Once you lose map control with Protoss against Zerg, it's pretty much game over. And while having a map control, you have to keep constantly shifting your units through the map. Zerg is the strongest when he gets enough time to co-ordinate his attacks, but if you keep moving units and snipe here and there, they will often get impatient and just send all, with no time for an imba flank.
This is more obvious in TvZ match up when Terran catches Zerg's units off the guard and Zerg ends up losing a lot of units. It's because Zerg has too much units and he can't keep them all on hotkeys. And Protoss should take an advantage of this. Attack and fall back, attack and fall back. It's so much easier to play vs Zerg when you keep him on his tiptoes.
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I'm a firm believer that HTs are always necessary a safe bet in long matches for P, but it seems most protoss players lack the APM. Anyone got Stork/Bisu/Best/Kal APM numbers?
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i love long articles. xd
i think JD tried to counter speedlots +1 with mass hydra ling bust +1.
zerg gets the +1 early while waiting for speed along the way.
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1st I think that protoss is not struggling so much, if you look at pure results and exclude jaedong and flash from the equation protoss will look at par with the other races overall I suppose. I mean Jaedong and Flash simply put the game on another level and there is no one else regardless of their race who can compete with them (Bisu was there for a while, which kind of shows that protoss has the potential as a race)
2nd Many of the issues that are pointed in that article could have been addressed by the protoss reaver as a concept. However, that unit is essential but out of control for its owner. It needs forever to take a shot after dropped by the shuttle, the scarab doesnt have even close to normal path finding, the scarab is slow-moving almost as fast as the units, the scarab splash often fails, the scarab main damage often fails. There are too many restrictions on that unit, on a pro level it is actually for the defender to screw up, than for the attacker to inflict damage with it.
Without reliable reaver I agree that protoss faces the not enough gas for all techs issue and who knows if someone will be able to come up with something about it.
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No wonder I've been feeling something is different slightly about Bisu's PvZ in Proleague.
Protoss Revolutionist Fighting!!
This new strat shows that Bisu still got umph!
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Great article. Thanks for translating
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On November 23 2010 00:28 BLinD-RawR wrote:I was gonna say the same thing.  Afrotoss is future of Protoss......or past.
Frotoss is so much cooler/funnier than Afrotoss.
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The trouble is Flash will still destroy him.
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Estonia4504 Posts
I think JD will too. Jaedong has brought down so many people with excellently timed builds to counter the players overreliant on a single strategy.Don't know if he has one prepared yet, but he most certainly will.
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And I think Bisu has much better Cosair-control than others. This makes the zergs feel really uncomfortable.
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BISU!!!!
ilu
also paralyze.
SKTOSS REVOLUTION
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On November 23 2010 00:41 Caos2 wrote:
I'm a firm believer that HTs are always necessary a safe bet in long matches for P, but it seems most protoss players lack the APM. Anyone got Stork/Bisu/Best/Kal APM numbers?
Bisu:
average 315, taken from 3 random replays I have.
Stork:
average 267, taken from 4 random replays I have.
Kal:
average 362, taken from 8 replays of WCG 2010.
I dont think the numbers for Bisu and Stork are really viable though, as I don't really know when the games were played and in which context (league/showmatch/...).
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Great article, thanks for translating! (And thanks to the original author.) :-)
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go afrotoss! 
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Thanks for the article! Really interesting read, I think the more interesting question is going to be, what kind of response will Zerg players bring about to challenge this new playstyle in their usually favoured matchup.Also can't wait for JD vs Bisu S2
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
What I'm particularly interested in, is seeing how Bisu would play Flash.
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9070 Posts
It generally takes a Bisu awhile to design a new PvZ trend, but it tends to work for at least 3-4 months after that. I'm really excited about the new MSL, the Revolutionist should have a field day till he collides with Flash...
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Here is to hope that Bisu also saves Protoss in SC2.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
I'm sorry but is there a reason Afrotoss is being heralded as the great toss hope? I don't follow BW much so i'm not sure if people are just in love with his hairdo or he's actually accomplished / shown great things.
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He seems to have his head on his shoulders, something a lot of tosses fail to do. He's shown to be good at pvz and pvt, nothing too spectacular, but solid for a rookie playing his first televised games. Throw in there an awesome hair-do and a chill personality and you got yourself a new hope for tosses,
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He's 4-0 in the OSL right now after beating Great, a fairly good zerg, and Leta, an extremely good terran. And he won by completely outclassing them, both with pseudo cheesy play and straight up stomping them.
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On November 23 2010 01:55 tomatriedes wrote:
The trouble is Flash will still destroy him.
This is about pvz... Last time I checked Flash played neither toss or zerg. I could be wrong tho.
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On November 23 2010 03:46 Mascherano wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 01:55 tomatriedes wrote:
The trouble is Flash will still destroy him. This is about pvz... Last time I checked Flash played neither toss or zerg. I could be wrong tho.
Yes, because Protoss has only one match up to worry about?
Ironically, that's also part of the reason why Bisu isn't that successful - his PvT is problematic. Although for a Protoss he's already done well.
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It's so obvious in retrospect - Zealots beat every other ground unit given the correct positioning, and they're fast enough to jockey for that positioning...
I'm watching Bisu vods right now, and it's bizarre to see a Protoss floating so much gas. It's usually assumed that Protoss needs Storm to win battles, but when you rely on Templars, you give up the mobility that makes this Zealot force potent...
Not exactly the same, but this makes me think of yesterday's Day9 Daily, about 2 base blinkstalker --> 3 base Stalker/Colossus, relying for so long on an army that can't actually win a straight-up fight unless the opponent is out of position, but that has the mobility to threaten and poke until the enemy is forced to either stay home or engage in a lousy position...
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Great read, thanks for translating. I've noticed a majority of iCCup zergs dominating ZvP this season. My PvZ winrate is only high 30s while PvP and PvT are about 50%, so I'll try out this new style Bisu is going for.
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I'm still a Bisu-believer !
Although I have to say Bisu has limitations since he plays Protoss while Afrotoss plays Frotoss...
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On November 23 2010 00:22 Health_Wang wrote:
I'm Health_Wang.
The PLU's editor & SC commentator.
虎狼 is Horang2.
listen to this man
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United States4053 Posts
On November 22 2010 23:46 Funnytoss wrote:
some Zergs would simply sack a control group of Mutas to snipe the HTs
it's hyuk style
This was a nice read, and a pretty good insight into why Bisu seems to be so strong in PvZ lately. Hoping he can teach Best, Afrotoss, and Sun how to crush the matchup too :3
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Part of the innovation that wasn't mentioned is that Bisu's latest builds have almost no archons until much later than in his old +1/legs timing attacks. Again, saving gas and allowing him to get storm sooner and more corsairs. He also seems to go right from that +1 into the +2 upgrade frequently, so there's very small window where the zerg +1 carapace helps them much.
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What about his first Nexus against Zerg?
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Thanks for the translation. It was interesting, even for a terran. However I think free is being overlooked with his sort of oldschool perfect micro play. Everyone is yacking about Beesuit, but Free brings the results in ZvP(8/10). In my opinion instead of trying to find the advantageous build, they should focus more on ling runby/hydrabust scouting and better unit control.
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Hyuk went for early 3 base against Movie in the OSL. How is protoss suppose to counter that?
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Also, I REALLY want to see that Fake stargate into 4 Gate Goon timing build again. I think Bisu is doing a great job with his Zealot. when Zerg goes 3 Hatch Mutas, instead of building cannons, just build more gateways!
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On November 23 2010 00:13 2Pacalypse- wrote:![[image loading]](http://imgnews.naver.com/image/dailyesports/2010/11/19/20101119_bda0610c28469b3727ab0ab5016921e9.jpg) Afrotoss fighting~!
How the? what the f..? Wait what, how the fuck did that happen?
Did Jackie Chan and Mr T have a baby?
Anyways, nice write up. Will be interesting to see how the strat works out. In the meantime, I'll sit here in a confused state wondering how an Asian got an afro. Surely it isn't natural? lmao
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On November 23 2010 06:37 Darth Saros wrote:Thanks for the translation. It was interesting, even for a terran. However I think free is being overlooked with his sort of oldschool perfect micro play. Everyone is yacking about Beesuit, but Free brings the results in ZvP(8/10). In my opinion instead of trying to find the advantageous build, they should focus more on ling runby/hydrabust scouting and better unit control.
_wat_?
do you know that bisu broke the old elo record, again?
comparing free to bisus zvp, how can you do that? :/
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Very interesting article, indeed Bisu is a beast.
One of the difficulties Protoss had with using Zealots against Hydras in a choke battle situation was that the Zealots couldn't spread out effectively, compounded by the fact that Hydras would clump easily, not allowing Zealots to use their speed. Now, Bisu's core strategy is to use +1 speedlots to take map control, engaging the Hydras before they can reach critical mass, using mobility, concentrating maximum strength on the opponent's weak points.
I'm no BW expert but wow that's impressive. It definitely looks like a S-Class P strat.
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On November 23 2010 01:50 johnlee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 00:28 BLinD-RawR wrote:On November 23 2010 00:13 2Pacalypse- wrote:Afrotoss fighting~! I was gonna say the same thing. Afrotoss is future of Protoss......or past. Frotoss is so much cooler/funnier than Afrotoss.
Ptoss Funkmaster for the win. All credits to nukethestars though.
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Thanks for this. This is the kind of smart play Protoss haven't had for a long time. Perhaps the age of macro is finally succumbing, now that Protoss can't just win by making units anymore.
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it's really exciting to see a protoss beating zergs all over the place again, but we gotta remember how fast builds get countered in this era. this build/strat could be rendered obsolete within a month. remember how fast things were changing in 2009? practically every month PvZ changed lol
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United States4053 Posts
On November 23 2010 00:22 Health_Wang wrote:
I'm Health_Wang.
The PLU's editor & SC commentator.
虎狼 is Horang2.
Hi! Welcome to TL!
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Thanks to everyone who pointed out that 虎狼 is Horang2. We really need an official translated "BW-terminology" thread...
and thanks again to PLU for this great article!
it's really exciting to see a protoss beating zergs all over the place again, but we gotta remember how fast builds get countered in this era. this build/strat could be rendered obsolete within a month. remember how fast things were changing in 2009? practically every month PvZ changed lol
Very true, though one part of this new strategy that I like a lot is that it doesn't depend on the user being amazing at micro, which some of the more reaver-intensive strategies would require. An overall mindset change is more revolutionary and potentially long-lasting, and it'll be interesting to see if other Protoss pick it up and how they'll do PvZ.
It certainly could be rendered obsolete quickly, but it looks like Bisu, at least, will need some stiffer competition before it begins to show glaring flaws.
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Bisutopia19230 Posts
Thanks for the article. Bisu rlly has invented something great here. I think more spore colonies will be built in the future.
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On November 23 2010 08:30 Funnytoss wrote:Thanks to everyone who pointed out that 虎狼 is Horang2. We really need an official translated "BW-terminology" thread... and thanks again to PLU for this great article! Show nested quote +it's really exciting to see a protoss beating zergs all over the place again, but we gotta remember how fast builds get countered in this era. this build/strat could be rendered obsolete within a month. remember how fast things were changing in 2009? practically every month PvZ changed lol Very true, though one part of this new strategy that I like a lot is that it doesn't depend on the user being amazing at micro, which some of the more reaver-intensive strategies would require. An overall mindset change is more revolutionary and potentially long-lasting, and it'll be interesting to see if other Protoss pick it up and how they'll do PvZ. It certainly could be rendered obsolete quickly, but it looks like Bisu, at least, will need some stiffer competition before it begins to show glaring flaws.
it's funny you mention that. I always believed that kal's sair/reaver strat was closest to the most perfect PvZ build if executed correctly (particularly on matchpoint). the problem I guess was that even kal wasn't able to keep up good enough micro for it all the time, and even though I still think he is the most skilled mechanically of any protoss (or at least among the top 3), he is too stubborn and not flexible enough strategically to win with it enough. if only kal would learn that sometimes he needs to stop harassing and just take an extra expo instead :\
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Wow, Bisu revolutionizes the PvZ matchup again. Double revolutionist!
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The pictures are phenominal
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I want Bisu to win an OSL so bad. C'mon man I believe in you!
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Thanks for the translation. Very interesting article.
Those of us who follow Bisu closely noticed the lack of Goons pretty quickly, but this in-depth analysis certainly highlights things that are otherwise easily missed.
The Revolutionist living up to his name.
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So this new build is why Soulkey played Sunken Defense against Bisu in the SKT vs Stars Ace match ?
Bisu's build no1 : Sair/Dark Templar
Bisu's build no2 : Sair/Zealots
Bisu's build no3 : Sair/ Probes ?
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Afrotoss with 3-0 Flash in the OSL finals to herald a new age of Protoss!!
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This sort of puts into good thought what Bisu watchers have noticed lately, which was a very heavy emphasis on zealots and aggression with sairs.
Thanks for the translation!
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United States4053 Posts
lol hey the people over in china are discussing us again
replies in order:
*man, I don't understand that
*rofl
*Let's bump it and see [T/N unsure]
*oh man, Movie's salary is going to rise now. quick, get [T/N one of their EN->CN translators' names?] to come translate this
*(quotes previous reply) it's the english translation of that PLU article about Bisu
*someone go tell TL why movie is called chen lao shi
*how do you register for TL? ugh
*(referring to Health_Wang's post here) does Health_Wang browse TL all day?
*[T/N someone's name] has said that reading pure English is very stressful...
edit: wtf man the people at plu's bbs and wfbrood's bbs are watching us pretty closely... health_wang's post here is literally reposted there, has its own discussion thread with a bolded green title
edit 2: some people at plu are also asking for an en->cn translation... should i do it?
edit 3: lol one guy asked "how do you say baller in Chinese"... and you really can't, afaik. poor guy 
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On November 23 2010 12:16 infinitestory wrote:lol hey the people over in china are discussing us againreplies in order: *man, I don't understand that *rofl *Let's bump it and see [T/N unsure] *oh man, Movie's salary is going to rise now. quick, get [T/N one of their EN->CN translators' names?] to come translate this *(quotes previous reply) it's the english translation of that PLU article about Bisu *someone go tell TL why movie is called chen lao shi *how do you register for TL? ugh *(referring to Health_Wang's post here) does Health_Wang browse TL all day? edit: wtf man the people at plu's bbs and wfbrood's bbs are watching us pretty closely... health_wang's post here is literally reposted there, has its own discussion thread with a bolded green title
HAHA I loled pretty hard on "I'm Health_Wang.
The PLU's editor & SC commentator.
小王整天混tl?"
小王 litterally mean little wang! Wow.
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On November 23 2010 12:16 infinitestory wrote:lol hey the people over in china are discussing us againreplies in order: *man, I don't understand that *rofl *Let's bump it and see [T/N unsure] *oh man, Movie's salary is going to rise now. quick, get [T/N one of their EN->CN translators' names?] to come translate this *(quotes previous reply) it's the english translation of that PLU article about Bisu *someone go tell TL why movie is called chen lao shi *how do you register for TL? ugh *(referring to Health_Wang's post here) does Health_Wang browse TL all day? edit: wtf man the people at plu's bbs and wfbrood's bbs are watching us pretty closely... health_wang's post here is literally reposted there, has its own discussion thread with a bolded green title
patiently waiting for:
"hey, they're disucssing us discussing them:
*(infinitestory's translated comments back to chinese)"
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On November 23 2010 12:27 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 12:16 infinitestory wrote:lol hey the people over in china are discussing us againreplies in order: *man, I don't understand that *rofl *Let's bump it and see [T/N unsure] *oh man, Movie's salary is going to rise now. quick, get [T/N one of their EN->CN translators' names?] to come translate this *(quotes previous reply) it's the english translation of that PLU article about Bisu *someone go tell TL why movie is called chen lao shi *how do you register for TL? ugh *(referring to Health_Wang's post here) does Health_Wang browse TL all day? edit: wtf man the people at plu's bbs and wfbrood's bbs are watching us pretty closely... health_wang's post here is literally reposted there, has its own discussion thread with a bolded green title HAHA I loled pretty hard on "I'm Health_Wang. The PLU's editor & SC commentator. 小王整天混tl?" 小王 litterally mean little wang! Wow.
there are two things wrong with this post, and both of them are all of it
小 is a term of affection that precedes the person's last name
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Thanks for the analysis, I havn't been able to watch too much proleague lately, and I really didn't know too much about the new pvz style. I guess what bisu is doing is right, zealots are very good against hydras if in an open field. However, I do have some doubts, because zealots cannot go through a good sim city, and they basically allow zerg to get to three bases while the toss wasted a lot on zealots. But I guess the main point is to attack before the sim city gets there.
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Well this makes the low goon and low templar play of Bisu make a hell of a lot more sense.
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On November 23 2010 12:16 infinitestory wrote:
edit: wtf man the people at plu's bbs and wfbrood's bbs are watching us pretty closely... health_wang's post here is literally reposted there, has its own discussion thread with a bolded green title
edit 2: some people at plu are also asking for an en->cn translation... should i do it?
...huh? The original article was a Chinese article from... PLU? Why would you translate it back? Unless... we do the Google translate game and do it back and forth until it no longer makes sense!
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United States4053 Posts
On November 23 2010 13:01 Funnytoss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 12:16 infinitestory wrote:
edit: wtf man the people at plu's bbs and wfbrood's bbs are watching us pretty closely... health_wang's post here is literally reposted there, has its own discussion thread with a bolded green title
edit 2: some people at plu are also asking for an en->cn translation... should i do it? ...wait, that doesn't even make sense. The original article was a Chinese article from... PLU?
no, an en->cn translation of our replies
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On November 23 2010 13:05 infinitestory wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 13:01 Funnytoss wrote:On November 23 2010 12:16 infinitestory wrote:
edit: wtf man the people at plu's bbs and wfbrood's bbs are watching us pretty closely... health_wang's post here is literally reposted there, has its own discussion thread with a bolded green title
edit 2: some people at plu are also asking for an en->cn translation... should i do it? ...wait, that doesn't even make sense. The original article was a Chinese article from... PLU? no, an en->cn translation of our replies
Oh. Well, in that case I'm sure they'd find it interesting, just like we enjoy Korean netizen responses to TL
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10387 Posts
On November 23 2010 12:38 Tazza wrote:
Thanks for the analysis, I havn't been able to watch too much proleague lately, and I really didn't know too much about the new pvz style. I guess what bisu is doing is right, zealots are very good against hydras if in an open field. However, I do have some doubts, because zealots cannot go through a good sim city, and they basically allow zerg to get to three bases while the toss wasted a lot on zealots. But I guess the main point is to attack before the sim city gets there.
if you read the article, it says that zealots should be used wisely i.e. dont throw them away if the simcity is proper. That's pretty much the biggest mistake most protosses other than Bisu make in using this build, they see 2 sunkens and decide to attack anyways, without doing any real damage other than killing the sunkens maybe. Bisu plays smartly and only attacks when he knows he can do damage
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Part of Mao Zedong's strategy, Volume 5...............
Actually in Chinese ,v5 does not mean volume 5...it just sounds the same as 威武,
so they just use v5 for fun.
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United States4053 Posts
On November 23 2010 13:12 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 12:38 Tazza wrote:
Thanks for the analysis, I havn't been able to watch too much proleague lately, and I really didn't know too much about the new pvz style. I guess what bisu is doing is right, zealots are very good against hydras if in an open field. However, I do have some doubts, because zealots cannot go through a good sim city, and they basically allow zerg to get to three bases while the toss wasted a lot on zealots. But I guess the main point is to attack before the sim city gets there. if you read the article, it says that zealots should be used wisely i.e. dont throw them away if the simcity is proper. That's pretty much the biggest mistake most protosses other than Bisu make in using this build, they see 2 sunkens and decide to attack anyways, without doing any real damage other than killing the sunkens maybe. Bisu plays smartly and only attacks when he knows he can do damage
I think one key point from the article is that only now are Protoss realizing that Zealots can be used to beat down hydras. I certainly felt surprised when I saw Bisu slaughtering hydras with zealots, since I had rarely seen that before (usually, it was just mass HT and sponge damage with zealots to beat hydras, iirc). Also, I think Bisu has figured out how to nail a greedy, walling zerg (see: Bisu vs Soulkey, in which he only attacks Soulkey after Soulkey has committed to walling in and going for tech, I think). He's got something going for sure.
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I think baller is 牛B; also I think what Bisu does with his speedzeals is exactly what flash does with his vults in TvP, contest map control when dominant race is supposed to have it, and fuck up their timings (see the match with snow)
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United States4053 Posts
On November 23 2010 13:41 l0st_romantic wrote:
I think baller is 牛B; also I think what Bisu does with his speedzeals is exactly what flash does with his vults in TvP, contest map control when dominant race is supposed to have it, and fuck up their timings (see the match with snow)
To be fair, I think it's the combination of speedlots and Corsairs, since speedlots alone are stopped quickly by the mutalisks. Although I do remember one PvZ where the P used some nice multitask to send zealot waves to two of the zerg's bases simultaneously... don't remember who it was though. That's another way to render mutalisks much less effective, since half a control group of mutalisks doen't stop zealots before they do some serious damage.
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I don't understand why Korean players don't do +0 speed zealots rushes à la Kwark. It hits 30 seconds earlier before the zerg can sim city properly. Of course this build can't become standard as it would be easily countered by mass zerglings, but it's still a good build to mix in once in a while.
Thanks for the translation it was an interesting article !
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I want to see a Bisu vs Flash OSL Finals. Taekbang Leessang semis plz? <3
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Thanks for translating, hopefully Bisu will be able to get somewhere in individual leagues though I haven't seen many of his games since last season, I hope his awful PvT has improved.
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United States4053 Posts
On November 23 2010 14:31 ~ava wrote:
Thanks for translating, hopefully Bisu will be able to get somewhere in individual leagues though I haven't seen many of his games since last season, I hope his awful PvT has improved.
Bisu's PvT was never awful. It was just never nearly as good as his other two matchups. His vT ELO peak is #12 all-time, while his vZ peak is #8 all-time (behind Jaedong and 6 terrans).
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On November 23 2010 14:36 infinitestory wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 14:31 ~ava wrote:
Thanks for translating, hopefully Bisu will be able to get somewhere in individual leagues though I haven't seen many of his games since last season, I hope his awful PvT has improved. Bisu's PvT was never awful. It was just never nearly as good as his other two matchups. His vT ELO peak is #12 all-time, while his vZ peak is #8 all-time (behind Jaedong and 6 terrans).
PvT #3, PvP #1, PvZ #1 by the way.
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5930 Posts
On November 23 2010 13:12 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 12:38 Tazza wrote:
Thanks for the analysis, I havn't been able to watch too much proleague lately, and I really didn't know too much about the new pvz style. I guess what bisu is doing is right, zealots are very good against hydras if in an open field. However, I do have some doubts, because zealots cannot go through a good sim city, and they basically allow zerg to get to three bases while the toss wasted a lot on zealots. But I guess the main point is to attack before the sim city gets there. if you read the article, it says that zealots should be used wisely i.e. dont throw them away if the simcity is proper. That's pretty much the biggest mistake most protosses other than Bisu make in using this build, they see 2 sunkens and decide to attack anyways, without doing any real damage other than killing the sunkens maybe. Bisu plays smartly and only attacks when he knows he can do damage
Exactly, single largest mistake all protoss players make. I've been saying for ages that the +1 speedlot timing attacks don't work in the traditional way because of the zerg simcity has been perfected to block it so why do they STILL bother committing to it? Basically every terran or every zerg knows when he can or when he can't break bases and adjusts his position accordingly so its confusing to see protoss players struggle to understand this and send masses of zealots to kill a few zerglings and some base defense game after game.
To be honest, all of this feels like an adaption of strategies used in different matchups played by different races. The most revolutionary part is the dragoon usage, or lack of, which allows protoss to skip the one unit that is basically made obsolete by hive tech units and use that gas on templar tech/corsairs. But there is some serious deja vu in reading "The keys to this strategy" especially.
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jangbi is 0-7 this season, the hell is going on?
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On November 23 2010 14:48 theramstoss wrote:
jangbi is 0-7 this season, the hell is going on?
Slump. I have no idea why he's so bad though, he was mediocre-decent last season's end. Probably just started bad.
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On November 23 2010 13:51 infinitestory wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 13:41 l0st_romantic wrote:
I think baller is 牛B; also I think what Bisu does with his speedzeals is exactly what flash does with his vults in TvP, contest map control when dominant race is supposed to have it, and fuck up their timings (see the match with snow) To be fair, I think it's the combination of speedlots and Corsairs, since speedlots alone are stopped quickly by the mutalisks. Although I do remember one PvZ where the P used some nice multitask to send zealot waves to two of the zerg's bases simultaneously... don't remember who it was though. That's another way to render mutalisks much less effective, since half a control group of mutalisks doen't stop zealots before they do some serious damage.
+ Show Spoiler +was paralyze vs great in first round of bacchus 36 i believe frotoss fighitng
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On November 23 2010 14:11 endy wrote:
I don't understand why Korean players don't do +0 speed zealots rushes à la Kwark. It hits 30 seconds earlier before the zerg can sim city properly. Of course this build can't become standard as it would be easily countered by mass zerglings, but it's still a good build to mix in once in a while.
Thanks for the translation it was an interesting article !
the players are too good (at defending), so the cheesing side is always at a disadvantage. If I was a pro I would be hard pressed to do this build, I can just see my +0 zealots melting.
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On November 23 2010 13:41 l0st_romantic wrote:
I think baller is 牛B; also I think what Bisu does with his speedzeals is exactly what flash does with his vults in TvP, contest map control when dominant race is supposed to have it, and fuck up their timings (see the match with snow)
baller = 屌? it means like cool, pimp, badass
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On November 23 2010 14:52 theramstoss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 14:11 endy wrote:
I don't understand why Korean players don't do +0 speed zealots rushes à la Kwark. It hits 30 seconds earlier before the zerg can sim city properly. Of course this build can't become standard as it would be easily countered by mass zerglings, but it's still a good build to mix in once in a while.
Thanks for the translation it was an interesting article ! the players are too good (at defending), so the cheesing side is always at a disadvantage. If I was a pro I would be hard pressed to do this build, I can just see my +0 zealots melting.
Well Bisu had a few early timing windows with like 6 zealots that I remember. But +0 lots are so weak unless the zerg skimps hard.
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On November 23 2010 12:16 infinitestory wrote:lol hey the people over in china are discussing us againreplies in order: *man, I don't understand that *rofl *Let's bump it and see [T/N unsure] *oh man, Movie's salary is going to rise now. quick, get [T/N one of their EN->CN translators' names?] to come translate this *(quotes previous reply) it's the english translation of that PLU article about Bisu *someone go tell TL why movie is called chen lao shi *how do you register for TL? ugh *(referring to Health_Wang's post here) does Health_Wang browse TL all day? *[T/N someone's name] has said that reading pure English is very stressful... edit: wtf man the people at plu's bbs and wfbrood's bbs are watching us pretty closely... health_wang's post here is literally reposted there, has its own discussion thread with a bolded green title edit 2: some people at plu are also asking for an en->cn translation... should i do it? edit 3: lol one guy asked "how do you say baller in Chinese"... and you really can't, afaik. poor guy
rofl. why is movie called chen lao shi? i was gonna ask on playsc.com but i can't seem to register
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I'm pretty sure 三炮 just made it up at one point (during the season Movie placed 2nd after losing to Flash)
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On November 23 2010 14:53 LeoTheLion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 13:41 l0st_romantic wrote:
I think baller is 牛B; also I think what Bisu does with his speedzeals is exactly what flash does with his vults in TvP, contest map control when dominant race is supposed to have it, and fuck up their timings (see the match with snow) baller = 屌? it means like cool, pimp, badass
How do you pronounce that?
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On November 23 2010 15:28 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 14:53 LeoTheLion wrote:On November 23 2010 13:41 l0st_romantic wrote:
I think baller is 牛B; also I think what Bisu does with his speedzeals is exactly what flash does with his vults in TvP, contest map control when dominant race is supposed to have it, and fuck up their timings (see the match with snow) baller = 屌? it means like cool, pimp, badass How do you pronounce that?
diao3, I guess you know what it means.
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
love the analysis, and how they were spot-on about zealots being the key here. bisu's pvz have been really heavily dependent on zealot/sair and not smashing them brute-force style into a billion sunkens.
excellent read, thanks for translating!
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On November 23 2010 14:11 endy wrote:
I don't understand why Korean players don't do +0 speed zealots rushes à la Kwark. It hits 30 seconds earlier before the zerg can sim city properly. Of course this build can't become standard as it would be easily countered by mass zerglings, but it's still a good build to mix in once in a while.
Thanks for the translation it was an interesting article !
I've seen some players do it, but as you noted yourself, it's too flimsy to be used as a standard playstyle. If you can hit before the Zerg can defend properly then certainly it's useful, but it doesn't transition into midgame well with the severely delayed +1...
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Yes, Kim Taek Yooooonggg! I know the Revolutionist will be back, haters gonna hate. =3 Thanks for translating!
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10387 Posts
On November 23 2010 15:49 Funnytoss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 14:11 endy wrote:
I don't understand why Korean players don't do +0 speed zealots rushes à la Kwark. It hits 30 seconds earlier before the zerg can sim city properly. Of course this build can't become standard as it would be easily countered by mass zerglings, but it's still a good build to mix in once in a while.
Thanks for the translation it was an interesting article ! I've seen some players do it, but as you noted yourself, it's too flimsy to be used as a standard playstyle. If you can hit before the Zerg can defend properly then certainly it's useful, but it doesn't transition into midgame well with the severely delayed +1...
If I recall, the first time I saw it used was Bisu vs Jaedong in the Allstars game, where Bisu destroyed Jaedong because he wasn't prepared. It became popular for like a month or so, until Kal attempted it vs Jaedong and got utterly crushed.
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What about lurker openings? Arn't they a lot safer from these early zealot/corsair? If Soulkey had followed up his 4th base and spire with a hydra den instead of planning for fast hive, Bisu probably would have turned around from his natural instead of getting 10ish drone kills. I can't help think that transitioning to muta/scourge was a very bad move since Bisu had been steadily sinking gas into corsairs rather than other tech while building up his early zeals.
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On November 23 2010 16:56 Trap wrote:
What about lurker openings? Arn't they a lot safer from these early zealot/corsair? If Soulkey had followed up his 4th base and spire with a hydra den instead of planning for fast hive, Bisu probably would have turned around from his natural instead of getting 10ish drone kills. I can't help think that transitioning to muta/scourge was a very bad move since Bisu had been steadily sinking gas into corsairs rather than other tech while building up his early zeals.
Lurker? did you saw Calm's Lurker?
but if it were Yellow's lurker .. hmmm
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On November 23 2010 14:37 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 14:36 infinitestory wrote:On November 23 2010 14:31 ~ava wrote:
Thanks for translating, hopefully Bisu will be able to get somewhere in individual leagues though I haven't seen many of his games since last season, I hope his awful PvT has improved. Bisu's PvT was never awful. It was just never nearly as good as his other two matchups. His vT ELO peak is #12 all-time, while his vZ peak is #8 all-time (behind Jaedong and 6 terrans). PvT #3, PvP #1, PvZ #1 by the way.
I watch as many Bisu games as I have time for because I admire his skill, he's pretty great in all his matchups. I just remember a couple of PvT games toward the end of last season where he threw away carriers into goliaths and used archons a whole bunch. Bad decisions but the games were still tense and exciting, and he won a few despite all that. Point taken, I just wish his PvT was as good as his other matchups.
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Just hope Bisu brings back the full force of his charisma and he'll be fine.
And Afrotoss be bringing back the 70s baby!
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On November 23 2010 16:11 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 15:49 Funnytoss wrote:On November 23 2010 14:11 endy wrote:
I don't understand why Korean players don't do +0 speed zealots rushes à la Kwark. It hits 30 seconds earlier before the zerg can sim city properly. Of course this build can't become standard as it would be easily countered by mass zerglings, but it's still a good build to mix in once in a while.
Thanks for the translation it was an interesting article ! I've seen some players do it, but as you noted yourself, it's too flimsy to be used as a standard playstyle. If you can hit before the Zerg can defend properly then certainly it's useful, but it doesn't transition into midgame well with the severely delayed +1... If I recall, the first time I saw it used was Bisu vs Jaedong in the Allstars game, where Bisu destroyed Jaedong because he wasn't prepared. It became popular for like a month or so, until Kal attempted it vs Jaedong and got utterly crushed.
Nah that was definitely a +1 Speedlot attack. He moved in a bit too early, had to stall for a few seconds before +1 kicked in and then attacked IIRC
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I will note that the maps appear to play a significant role in this as well - with wider entrances into bases, Z need to add additional sunkens early on. On maps where there's very little distance at all between the nat and 3rd, it's a lot harder to stop the Hydra force from building up as well.
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Bisutopia19230 Posts
Now that I know plu is reading these post I have decided I need to make more intelligent posts. There's a crowd out there expecting greatness from TL.
And bisu will continue to rise to power purely because of the new map, Bloody Ridge. It is the relative to Heartbreak Ridge and the destiny of the Bruce Lee Toss.
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I fuuuucking loved that article man
just waiting for a Bisu vs Jaedong match of epicness
what's that? is Bisu back? =)
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Sounds similar to the way I tried to play (with vastly less polished play of course) back in 2009. Except I suppose I was overly all-inish (not quite all in, but very close to it) in early mid game.
I like that style of play 8)
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Food for thought! :D thanks
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On November 23 2010 17:36 ~ava wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 14:37 Lightwip wrote:On November 23 2010 14:36 infinitestory wrote:On November 23 2010 14:31 ~ava wrote:
Thanks for translating, hopefully Bisu will be able to get somewhere in individual leagues though I haven't seen many of his games since last season, I hope his awful PvT has improved. Bisu's PvT was never awful. It was just never nearly as good as his other two matchups. His vT ELO peak is #12 all-time, while his vZ peak is #8 all-time (behind Jaedong and 6 terrans). PvT #3, PvP #1, PvZ #1 by the way. I watch as many Bisu games as I have time for because I admire his skill, he's pretty great in all his matchups. I just remember a couple of PvT games toward the end of last season where he threw away carriers into goliaths and used archons a whole bunch. Bad decisions but the games were still tense and exciting, and he won a few despite all that. Point taken, I just wish his PvT was as good as his other matchups.
His PvT isn't awful, he just had a bit of a decision-making crisis at the end of last season. His PvT is good enough to beat any terran on his good days. Don't look at the end of last season, because that isn't a good indication of his true skill.
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Damn Ptoss funkmuster knocked out l33t4
User was warned for this post
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Hard to believe that the slayer of Savior over 3 years ago is at his PvZ ELO peak right now. I hope he does something good with it and wins an OSL or MSL. He needs to watch out for PvP where he is good but sometimes shaky, and PvT where he is shakey and sometimes good. He needs to avoid carriers. I think he would have faired better against Sea in the MSL Ro16 if he went Arbiters instead. As bad as it is for your meta game to go Arbiters every game, he really has no choice if he's up against a Top 10 Terran.
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Is anyone nice enough to translate this? =D Pretty please? Thank you!
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Bisu tried something different in OSL vs Shine. What was he trying to do? Im still new. Couldnt read the game well especially BOs and tech.
+ Show Spoiler +bisu just lost to shine
so why didnt he make archons in game 1 to vs mutas. and pure goons in game 2/?
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+ Show Spoiler +Oops he did it again xD
(lost to shine in early stages of OSL ROFL)
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On November 26 2010 22:42 MiraKul wrote:
herp derp derp
On November 26 2010 22:45 M!SHA wrote:
derp herp
Yeah nice. I thought that this thread was supposed to be about Bisus innovation for Protoss strategy, not spoiling the OSL 36 round matches.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
^ dont quote the spoilers again
edit: ok everythings good now
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Stork ofc. He was always and still is the true protoss king.
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Say that Bisu will save the Protoss the day he takes down  Flash in a bo5. Until then I'm sticking with Stork.
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meh .. if stork keeps his low level play than usual vs mediocre players, he's not going to be our Executor ..
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Decided to bump the thread today after
+ Show Spoiler +Stork killed 3 Hwaseung Zergs in a row!
and finding
On November 28 2010 14:07 aimaimaim wrote:
meh .. if stork keeps his low level play than usual vs mediocre players, he's not going to be our Executor ..
profoundly ironic
Just a few unorganized thoughts - someone with a better grasp of PvZ may be able to elaborate a bit more onthis.
Stork and Bisu are playing different styles of PvZ right now and both are doing fairly well - while Both are using sairs well to prevent muta sniping of HT, but compared to Bisu's zealot heavy mobile style, Stork seems to rely upon reavers a bit more than Bisu does, for that ground punch, which imo is a bit more solid (so long as you have the micro) because it doesn't feel as map dependent - you can't shut down a goon/reaver/temp army as easily as you can a primarily zealot army. A strong simcity with an extra sunken or so pretty much forces Zealots to run around, maintaining map control until Zerg can build up, which... if they get 4 bases quickly, they should be able to...
In the games that Stork and Bisu have been winning recently, they've been catching opponents off guard, either through busting through simcities or coming out with unexpected(?) army compositions.
Anything in this (as far as why they're doing well), or is unpredictability mixed with high sair numbers just hard for Z to solve right now?
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Stork Reaver's win the game. 50 and 27 kills hero reavers.
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Bisu's PvZ relies heavily on specific build order and scouting information, it's about "having the right units at the right time"
Stork's PvZ relies on striking at the weakest point of the Zerg's defense : "having the right units at the right place"
This is a meaningful depiction of Bisu and Stork :
![[image loading]](http://www.deviantart.com/download/127022221/3D_Dialga_and_Palkia_Wallpaper_by_klnothincomin.png)
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Japan11286 Posts
Judging from their games then I think,
Bisu's PvZ relies on the mobile zealot army for map control and striking at zerg's simcity weakpoints
Stork's PvZ relies on reavers to bust through zerg simcities, eco harassment and defense from hydras.
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Nice read. I just posted a question on TL about PvZ before Bisu!
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bisu is awesome. though really i'd like to see jangbi do well too. stork right now is ona roll and hopefully he'll win!
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In honor of the resurgence in Bisu-love in the forums recently, I decided to bump this translation to allow newcomers a glimpse of why we love Bisu so much, and why he's raking in Afreeca balloons like there's no tomorrow.
Given that PvZ has always been rather difficult for Protoss, the fact that Bisu excelled at this matchup really gave a lot of Protoss players hope. It's unfortunate that his PvT is so shaky, comparatively speaking, but it's an honor to be able to watch him stream
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But still he has a losing record against Zero. Just sayin'.
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and jangbi saved protoss osl-wise, still he isn't getting half the attention
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EPT
