• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:31
CEST 23:31
KST 06:31
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments0[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence5Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon9[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups3WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments1SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia7Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues29LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments3
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups SpeCial on The Tasteless Podcast Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues
Tourneys
WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 General Discussion Playing StarCraft as 2 people on the same network
Tourneys
Is there English video for group selection for ASL [ASL20] Ro16 Group C [ASL20] Ro16 Group B [IPSL] ISPL Season 1 Winter Qualis and Info!
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Borderlands 3
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Big Programming Thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Personality of a Spender…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1441 users

Who Will Save The Protoss? Bisu!

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
Funnytoss
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Taiwan1471 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-12 11:49:46
November 22 2010 14:46 GMT
#1
I found this article on PLU, and decided it was worth translating. Great stuff.

Who Will Save the Protoss?

[image loading]
(I figured this excellent photo by NeverGG was appropriate!)

After the ZvP 3-base 5-hatch strategy came out in the Fall of 2008, Protoss entered a long dark age - any scrub Zerg was confident in his ZvP, and the Protoss vs Zerg statistics (particularly in televised matches) were a total mess. Upon further examination, the 3-base 5-hatch build (plus Zerg simcity) is arguably the single most important reason for the Protoss downfall.

Over the past two years, all Protoss have been trying to figure out how to defeat the 5 hatch style, from Kal's Reaver/Sair, to Bisu's mass Goon HT escort, to Movie's odd strategies, to brute force mass units - all were ultimately solved by the Zerg - meaning that these styles all had their flaws. Recently, the newest wave we've seen has been the effective use of Speedlots from Bisu, which so far doesn't appear to have been solved by Zerg yet. Examining Bisu's PvZ play might give us some insight on the matchup:

After the Zerg gets 3-base 5-hatch, they typically have three transitions: 1. switching between Mutas and Hydras, 2. Turtling on 4-base and getting Hive, 3. Lurker contain plus a variety of harassment. There are some variations, such as a sudden wave of Zerglings - a cautious Protoss has many ways to prepare himself, and we won't go into that in detail here.

The main responses from the Protoss are the Stargate-Citadel and Stargate-Robo openings. Kal's Stargate-Robo style has proven to be ineffective, particularly against S-class Zergs, so we will discuss some of the changes seen in matches with the Stargate-Citadel opening.

One of the things Protoss has to consider when choosing a build is how to effectively prepare for the Hydra-Muta transition - this is a fundamental problem that must be solved, and a reason why the Protoss don't seem to have much variety recently in play. In matches played over the past two years, we've seen Protoss gain some sort of advantage early on, only to be overwhelmed by Hydras later, a result of not reacting well to the transition. Let's recap traditional responses:

1. Jaystar (Chinese player) style +1 Speedlots: The core idea here is to hit the Zerg before the 3-base 5-hatches are fully complete, but this is a double edged sword that often hurts the Protoss more than it does the Zerg - if the Speedlots can't do enough damage then it's pretty much GG shortly afterwards.

2. In order to deal with mass Hydra effectively, HT are ideal, and so a key aspect of Protoss play is figuring out how to protect HTs from being sniped by the Muta ball. Bisu invented a strategy where he'd make a full-scale Goon switch to escort the HTs, and this worked out decently for awhile, but this kind of build is extremely gas intensive and limits the amount of Corsairs available to contest air superiority. In addition, it doesn't put much pressure on the Zerg in the early game, and so we've seen even greedier builds from the Zerg such as 3-base 6-hatch for an even stronger economic advantage, to the point where some Zergs would simply sack a control group of Mutas to snipe the HTs, and the Hydras would clean up the remaining Zealot-Goon;

3. As for Horang2's brute force style... it's certainly entertaining, but it's only useful against average Zerg players - Movie's various strategies are often good for one-time only, and aren't adequate to lift up the Protoss race overall.

4. Protoss also have Archons, which at first glance are awesome - Archons > Muta, Zealot > Hydra, but oftentimes we see Zergs scourging the Corsairs and then obliterating the Protoss ground forces with pure Hydra.

Let's take a look at some of the problems Protoss face in dealing with the 3-base 5-hatch style:

1. Insufficient gas - Protoss tech for countering Hydras is gas intensive. In particular, the fact that different units require different tech trees - Citadel, Stargate, Robotics - makes life extremely difficult. If stuck on two geysers, it's hard to maintain two tech trees - it's nearly impossible to maintain all three tech trees while keeping up with upgrades.

2. Lack of pressure on the Zerg in early game allows the Zerg to drone whore too easily, so by the time the mixed Protoss forces move out, they're oftentimes overwhelmed by mass - the Zerg simply "outspends" the Protoss in a battle of attrition easily.

Is there no perfect counter? Must the Protoss simply bow down before the Zerg? It's up to Bisu once more, in his return to glory, Fall 2010, restoring hope to the race. Bisu brought us an upgraded version of the Zealot-Archon-Corsir style - at the beginning of the season, commentators still had a little trouble figuring it out. Let's examine our understanding of his strategy here.

In the past, Protoss had a mistaken mentality; that Zealots couldn't fight against mass Hydra. We'd often see games where Zealots would fight Hydras at the Protoss choke backed up by cannons, ending with a ggyo. Now Bisu has come to tell us, "You've got it wrong. Here's a better idea: I don't rely on cannons, instead taking advantage of the Zealot's strength: speed and +1." One of the difficulties Protoss had with using Zealots against Hydras in a choke battle situation was that the Zealots couldn't spread out effectively, compounded by the fact that Hydras would clump easily, not allowing Zealots to use their speed. Now, Bisu's core strategy is to use +1 speedlots to take map control, engaging the Hydras before they can reach critical mass, using mobility, concentrating maximum strength on the opponent's weak points. (Part of Mao Zedong's strategy!)

With this mindset, Bisu's strategy starts to make sense - getting +1 speedlots without sacricing too much economy, not going for the kill but simply disrupting their economy while slowly accumulating Corsairs to challenge the air, taking out as many Overlords as possible. In midgame, utilizing a Zealot-Corsair mix (not even necessarily using Goons), plus a few Archons to take on Mutas, actively contesting map control, patrolling the center of the map (typically between the Zerg's main and 3rd), preventing the Zerg from organizing his Hydras into a critical mass, engaging one side at a time, forcing the Zerg to sacrifice economy for more sunkens and troops. At the same time, using the gas saved to tech up, get upgrades, and make more Corsairs. When HT tech is complete, it's time to take a 3rd, transitioning smoothly into late game, where Bisu has a good chance against anyone.

The keys to this strategy:
1. The first wave of Zealots can't die needlessly, and must be used carefully. If not confident in the odds, then hold back - some especially greedy Zergs will die right here;

2. Reinforcing Zealots must contest the center, controlling the area between the Zerg's nat and 3rd, stopping his troops from massing up, pressuring both sides with Speedlot mobility.

3. Corsairs have to survive [T/N lol Best is fucked], ready to engage Zerg air, jumping in to snipe Overlords when possible.

4. Taking the 3rd base relatively lately, waiting until the Protoss ball is fairly strong and mixed, or until you get an advantage.

In the past Bisu went pretty much 50-50 against Jaedong and wasn't particularly favored against any A-Class Zerg, but recently it seems that Bisu simply curbstomps the average Zerg. Currently Zerg has various responses to Bisu but all have fallen - of course, it remains to be seen how well such a strategy will hold up against an S-Class Zerg - we hope to see a Bisu vs Jaedong match soon!
AIV_Funnytoss and sGs.Funnytoss on iCCup
LeoTheLion
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
China958 Posts
November 22 2010 14:53 GMT
#2
i believe "chen lao shi" is movie. they call him edison chen = baller
Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy. -Chairman Mao
kg1128
Profile Joined May 2009
United States12 Posts
November 22 2010 14:55 GMT
#3
who will save the protoss? ParalyzE
bisu
Funnytoss
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Taiwan1471 Posts
November 22 2010 14:59 GMT
#4
On November 22 2010 23:53 LeoTheLion wrote:
i believe "chen lao shi" is movie. they call him edison chen = baller


Thanks, updated! (I'll take your word for it :p)
AIV_Funnytoss and sGs.Funnytoss on iCCup
sinistral
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore859 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-22 15:08:33
November 22 2010 15:05 GMT
#5
虎狼 should be Horang2.

Hulang sounds similar to 'Horang'.

Edit: Typo.
(´・ω・`)
Bouja
Profile Joined July 2003
Canada33 Posts
November 22 2010 15:09 GMT
#6
Thanks! you're right, this is pretty interesting. I found it weird how Bisu always seemed to have advantage while using speed lots, this explains it.
2Pacalypse-
Profile Joined October 2006
Croatia9510 Posts
November 22 2010 15:13 GMT
#7
[image loading]

(P)Afrotoss fighting~!
Moderator"We're a community of geniuses because we've found how to extract 95% of the feeling of doing something amazing without actually doing anything." - Chill
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-22 15:21:28
November 22 2010 15:20 GMT
#8
Bisu is so 2007. Frotoss is 2010.
I'm so hyped !
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
November 22 2010 15:22 GMT
#9
Nice analysis, even though you could mention other variations as the speedlot into expand (used by Anyppi vs Saint on Match Point, I bet that could work off too on circuit breakers where the min only is close by as well and the 4th also isnt that hard to take.

Except that I HIGHLY approve your points and analysis, gj
In the woods, there lurks..
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
November 22 2010 15:22 GMT
#10
wo so interesting. GOGOGO PROTOSS sEASON!
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
Health_Wang
Profile Joined November 2010
1 Post
November 22 2010 15:22 GMT
#11
I'm Health_Wang.
The PLU's editor & SC commentator.

虎狼 is Horang2.
POWEROUTAGE
Profile Joined February 2010
Singapore884 Posts
November 22 2010 15:26 GMT
#12
Seriously? Paralyze? K I know he's really good for a rookie but the thread is about the recent trends in PvZ set by Bisu.

Basically Bisu's innovation is a change in mentality of the same build (citadel tech), instead of aiming for a timing attack, contest map control on the ground with zeals. Actually it can be compared to what Jaedong did with lair tech, he changed the way lair was used, Bisu is also adopting a different mentality in using the +1 speedzeals. Zeal/Archon/Corsair is a really effective combination against hydra->muta / Muta ling and after 1 or 2 archons the protoss is pretty much safe to take expos already. Quite interesting to be honest, as KT protoss style 3 base full tech is pretty shaky this season and doesn't seem to be quite effective against 4 base turtle zergs, and robo openings are still not really that effective.
Stats. The new standard bearer of the protoss.
HeadhunteR
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Argentina1258 Posts
November 22 2010 15:27 GMT
#13
The maps also help a lot! dont forget about the interviews that bisu was famous for "AWWW THE MAPS ARE IMBA" when Bisu was shaping to be the next toss bonjwa it was when the maps were toss favored.
in The Kong line forever
BLinD-RawR
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
ALLEYCAT BLUES50362 Posts
November 22 2010 15:28 GMT
#14
On November 23 2010 00:13 2Pacalypse- wrote:
[image loading]

(P)Afrotoss fighting~!


I was gonna say the same thing.
(P)Afrotoss is future of Protoss......or past.
Brood War EICWoo Jung Ho, never forget.| Twitter: @BLinDRawR
TL+ Member
2Pacalypse-
Profile Joined October 2006
Croatia9510 Posts
November 22 2010 15:34 GMT
#15
On a more serious note, I really loved that analysis of Bisu's strategy. It's absolutely incredible how much the game is still evolving, with no end in sight.

I always thought that in PvZ the most important thing is map control. Pretty much like Bisu is doing with his speed lots. Once you lose map control with Protoss against Zerg, it's pretty much game over. And while having a map control, you have to keep constantly shifting your units through the map. Zerg is the strongest when he gets enough time to co-ordinate his attacks, but if you keep moving units and snipe here and there, they will often get impatient and just send all, with no time for an imba flank.
This is more obvious in TvZ match up when Terran catches Zerg's units off the guard and Zerg ends up losing a lot of units. It's because Zerg has too much units and he can't keep them all on hotkeys. And Protoss should take an advantage of this. Attack and fall back, attack and fall back. It's so much easier to play vs Zerg when you keep him on his tiptoes.
Moderator"We're a community of geniuses because we've found how to extract 95% of the feeling of doing something amazing without actually doing anything." - Chill
Caos2
Profile Joined November 2008
United States1728 Posts
November 22 2010 15:41 GMT
#16
I'm a firm believer that HTs are always necessary a safe bet in long matches for P, but it seems most protoss players lack the APM. Anyone got Stork/Bisu/Best/Kal APM numbers?
gongryong
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Korea (South)1430 Posts
November 22 2010 15:42 GMT
#17
i love long articles. xd
i think JD tried to counter speedlots +1 with mass hydra ling bust +1.
zerg gets the +1 early while waiting for speed along the way.
JAEDONG ÜBERBONJWA!
M2
Profile Joined December 2002
Bulgaria4120 Posts
November 22 2010 15:51 GMT
#18
1st I think that protoss is not struggling so much, if you look at pure results and exclude jaedong and flash from the equation protoss will look at par with the other races overall I suppose. I mean Jaedong and Flash simply put the game on another level and there is no one else regardless of their race who can compete with them (Bisu was there for a while, which kind of shows that protoss has the potential as a race)

2nd Many of the issues that are pointed in that article could have been addressed by the protoss reaver as a concept. However, that unit is essential but out of control for its owner. It needs forever to take a shot after dropped by the shuttle, the scarab doesnt have even close to normal path finding, the scarab is slow-moving almost as fast as the units, the scarab splash often fails, the scarab main damage often fails. There are too many restrictions on that unit, on a pro level it is actually for the defender to screw up, than for the attacker to inflict damage with it.

Without reliable reaver I agree that protoss faces the not enough gas for all techs issue and who knows if someone will be able to come up with something about it.
Knife kitty, night kitty, put you on a slab. Stealthy kitty, hunter kitty, stab stab stab :-)
Black[CAT]
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Malaysia2589 Posts
November 22 2010 16:30 GMT
#19
No wonder I've been feeling something is different slightly about Bisu's PvZ in Proleague.
Protoss Revolutionist Fighting!!
This new strat shows that Bisu still got umph!
You mean ESPORTS isnt a synonym for SC2? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -Proud owner of a Filco Majestouch 2 with Cherry Blue Switches- BW or SC2? Why not both?
vectorix108
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States4633 Posts
November 22 2010 16:45 GMT
#20
Great article. Thanks for translating
Aka XephyR/Shaneyesss
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 29m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ZombieGrub237
UpATreeSC 177
NeuroSwarm 164
JuggernautJason69
Lillekanin 17
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 710
ajuk12(nOOB) 17
sSak 16
Dota 2
Fuzer 176
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
pashabiceps560
Foxcn385
Stewie2K310
Super Smash Bros
PPMD73
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu553
Other Games
Grubby4052
FrodaN3455
summit1g1941
shahzam321
mouzStarbuck272
C9.Mang0117
ToD116
SortOf79
Trikslyr61
rGuardiaN39
Nathanias16
fpsfer 2
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 22 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta26
• RyuSc2 22
• sitaska16
• Psz 11
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 27
• FirePhoenix10
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2955
• masondota22275
• Ler95
League of Legends
• TFBlade546
Other Games
• Scarra1332
• imaqtpie1036
Upcoming Events
OSC
2h 29m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
12h 29m
Afreeca Starleague
12h 29m
Light vs Speed
Larva vs Soma
2v2
13h 29m
PiGosaur Monday
1d 2h
LiuLi Cup
1d 13h
RSL Revival
2 days
Maru vs Reynor
Cure vs TriGGeR
The PondCast
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Zoun vs Classic
Korean StarCraft League
4 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
4 days
[BSL 2025] Weekly
4 days
BSL Team Wars
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Online Event
5 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 20 Team Wars
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL Polish World Championship 2025
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.