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On October 12 2010 04:24 FishForThought wrote:
I highly doubt the progaming scene actually made that much more money for blizzard. Fan girls don't play starcraft, the majority of sc players are casuals and majority of people who watch starcraft, watch for the sake of watching.
What made SC the most popular RTS in history? HYPE. What made so many hype? KOREAN PROFESIONAL ESPORT. Before that "casuals" you are talking about or rewievers could argued that Red Alerts, Total Anihilation or any other RTS were better, but after first WCG and later first PL made SC the most hyped RTS. 4 milions copies in Korea was sold not only becouse of BW awsomeness, but becouse of HYPE.
You are delusional if you really think that Sc could be succesfully sold for so long without that.
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Canada11607 Posts
Right, but why was it hyped? Why does it last for such a long time? Solid game-play designed by Blizzard. We live in the age of persuasion where everything is hyped. Games are flavour of the week. But Blizzards produced a quality game. It became popular and it retained it's popularity through Korean e-sports. But it wouldn't have it's holding power without a dynamic game. But even outside Korean e-sports, it remains a game that is fun to play. The friends that introduced me to the game, knew nothing about e-sports. All they knew was that it was a good game. I strongly suspect this was the case for most SC players in North America. E-sports in general isn't the most mainstream thing, though it has become more visible in the last few years.
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@ Falling
I was trying to reply to you but then i realised that i have no idea whats the point you are trying to make. You said 1/ Blizz made Starcraft 2/ Starcraft is awesome, but then what? oO
@FishForThought
Sure Fangirls dont play Starcrafts, but if they adore guys who are awesome at Starcraft, some boys will buy it, and practice. You used some random logic to argue that proscene didnt matter, but how did you conviniently ignore the fact that over half of Brood War's sales were in Korea? Coincidence?
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On October 12 2010 21:13 Falling wrote:
Right, but why was it hyped? Why does it last for such a long time? Solid game-play designed by Blizzard. We live in the age of persuasion where everything is hyped. Games are flavour of the week. But Blizzards produced a quality game. It became popular and it retained it's popularity through Korean e-sports. But it wouldn't have it's holding power without a dynamic game. But even outside Korean e-sports, it remains a game that is fun to play. The friends that introduced me to the game, knew nothing about e-sports. All they knew was that it was a good game. I strongly suspect this was the case for most SC players in North America. E-sports in general isn't the most mainstream thing, though it has become more visible in the last few years.
We all know Starcraft is a solid and fun game. But i don't see how this relates to the conversation.
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Canada11607 Posts
My point was primarily directed at hithat, which downplays Blizzard's role in SCBW's success. Hype without substance is a flash in the pan. (I'm not entirely convinced of the whole SCBW was a mistake gone right/ Blizzard was/ is made up of fools. Obviously they didn't envision how far it would go, but they put a hell of an effort into it.)
Beyond that, it seems this blog from dubious sources of whom we cannot determine the author's vested interests, who will not stand by his article then actually contributes little to our actual understanding. Though I guess it does give a good excuse to argue our strongly held views on IP rights and the evilness or lackthe0erof of either of the companies.
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Unrelated, but why are the BW logo's from signatures gone? Disappointed if they actually removed them...
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51702 Posts
On October 12 2010 22:21 infinity2k9 wrote:
Unrelated, but why are the BW logo's from signatures gone? Disappointed if they actually removed them...
Which team do you support?
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On October 12 2010 21:13 Falling wrote:
Right, but why was it hyped? Why does it last for such a long time? Solid game-play designed by Blizzard. We live in the age of persuasion where everything is hyped. Games are flavour of the week. But Blizzards produced a quality game. It became popular and it retained it's popularity through Korean e-sports. But it wouldn't have it's holding power without a dynamic game. But even outside Korean e-sports, it remains a game that is fun to play. The friends that introduced me to the game, knew nothing about e-sports. All they knew was that it was a good game. I strongly suspect this was the case for most SC players in North America. E-sports in general isn't the most mainstream thing, though it has become more visible in the last few years.
I know what's your point, first time i saw SC was the retail version (not BroodWar) something about AD 2000, before i even had a connection with internet. I never stated that Blizzard didnt made a perfect RTS, moreover Battlenet made it available for masses. But i believe that was the profetional esport that kept the SC on a top for so long, when everybody discovered how really brilliant game that was. many game rewievers from my country given SC score something about 80/100, so they hasnt seen real potential. Total Anihilation gain more praise, but it died pretty soon, now is remembered as "great game that lost with this $^^&^%* overhyped StarCraft becouse of stupid kids". Most of guys who was talking shit like that never saw a profesional play in their life 
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On October 13 2010 00:16 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 21:13 Falling wrote:
Right, but why was it hyped? Why does it last for such a long time? Solid game-play designed by Blizzard. We live in the age of persuasion where everything is hyped. Games are flavour of the week. But Blizzards produced a quality game. It became popular and it retained it's popularity through Korean e-sports. But it wouldn't have it's holding power without a dynamic game. But even outside Korean e-sports, it remains a game that is fun to play. The friends that introduced me to the game, knew nothing about e-sports. All they knew was that it was a good game. I strongly suspect this was the case for most SC players in North America. E-sports in general isn't the most mainstream thing, though it has become more visible in the last few years. I know what's your point, first time i saw SC was the retail version (not BroodWar) something about AD 2000, before i even had a connection with internet. I never stated that Blizzard didnt made a perfect RTS, moreover Battlenet made it available for masses. But i believe that was the profetional esport that kept the SC on a top for so long, when everybody discovered how really brilliant game that was. many game rewievers from my country given SC score something about 80/100, so they hasnt seen real potential. Total Anihilation gain more praise, but it died pretty soon, now is remembered as "great game that lost with this $^^&^%* overhyped StarCraft becouse of stupid kids". Most of guys who was talking shit like that never saw a profesional play in their life
E-Sports definitely helped it, but Starcraft is popular and has most of it's success because it is made by blizzard.
In the western and european countries, most gamers tend to accept that a product is good and worth buying simply because of who developed it.
before StarCraft, blizzard was already accepted as a A+ developer. The game is successful because it is a good game. Esports is so successful BECAUSE of Starcraft. not the other way around.
You must always give the most respect to the developer. It is their product. They own it. Respect for IP laws is the foundation of respectful and proper business. Without IP laws it would be impossible for anyone to make any money. What if people could just steal starcraft, change a few things and sell it themselves?
The issue here is that Korea is not respecting these laws. If blizzard says you cant use their game without paying them, you can't. Simple as that. Korea _will_ give into blizzards requests because if they dont the US will enforce it, as they should. You must respect the owner of the product.
Do I agree with blizzard on this? Not entirely. I think they should set up some compensation system. They will simply make a profit based on the success of the prodcasting. A percentage cut. not an entire flat rate.
The issue here is the following;
Kespa is taking a product. That belongs to blizzard. they are then _selling the rights to broadcast this product_ Without compensating blizzard. Kespa is SELLING Starcarft without paying the OWNERS of Starcraft. You simply cannot do that, and it is true for all sports an content all over the world. To broadcast the world cup you do not pay the particular arena that is hosting it, you pay the organization that owns the rights to the world cup, and that is how it should be.
Just my ideas. Obviously I'm a little biased because I develop games for a living, but I hate blizzards guts right now for trying to end BW... but I understand where they are coming from.
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On October 13 2010 01:22 Nu11 wrote:
Kespa is taking a product. That belongs to blizzard. they are then _selling the rights to broadcast this product_ Without compensating blizzard. Kespa is SELLING Starcarft without paying the OWNERS of Starcraft. You simply cannot do that, and it is true for all sports an content all over the world. To broadcast the world cup you do not pay the particular arena that is hosting it, you pay the organization that owns the rights to the world cup, and that is how it should be.
They were selling the rights to broadcast their tournament, Proleague. No one would pay them if it was simply for the rights to broadcast Starcraft. They had a product to offer in return. Your analogy with the World Cup is flawed in that the World Cup is a tournament; FIFA are not the creators of the sport.
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On October 13 2010 01:22 Nu11 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 00:16 hitthat wrote:On October 12 2010 21:13 Falling wrote:
Right, but why was it hyped? Why does it last for such a long time? Solid game-play designed by Blizzard. We live in the age of persuasion where everything is hyped. Games are flavour of the week. But Blizzards produced a quality game. It became popular and it retained it's popularity through Korean e-sports. But it wouldn't have it's holding power without a dynamic game. But even outside Korean e-sports, it remains a game that is fun to play. The friends that introduced me to the game, knew nothing about e-sports. All they knew was that it was a good game. I strongly suspect this was the case for most SC players in North America. E-sports in general isn't the most mainstream thing, though it has become more visible in the last few years. I know what's your point, first time i saw SC was the retail version (not BroodWar) something about AD 2000, before i even had a connection with internet. I never stated that Blizzard didnt made a perfect RTS, moreover Battlenet made it available for masses. But i believe that was the profetional esport that kept the SC on a top for so long, when everybody discovered how really brilliant game that was. many game rewievers from my country given SC score something about 80/100, so they hasnt seen real potential. Total Anihilation gain more praise, but it died pretty soon, now is remembered as "great game that lost with this $^^&^%* overhyped StarCraft becouse of stupid kids". Most of guys who was talking shit like that never saw a profesional play in their life E-Sports definitely helped it, but Starcraft is popular and has most of it's success because it is made by blizzard. In the western and european countries, most gamers tend to accept that a product is good and worth buying simply because of who developed it. before StarCraft, blizzard was already accepted as a A+ developer. The game is successful because it is a good game. Esports is so successful BECAUSE of Starcraft. not the other way around. You must always give the most respect to the developer. It is their product. They own it. Respect for IP laws is the foundation of respectful and proper business. Without IP laws it would be impossible for anyone to make any money. What if people could just steal starcraft, change a few things and sell it themselves? The issue here is that Korea is not respecting these laws. If blizzard says you cant use their game without paying them, you can't. Simple as that. Korea _will_ give into blizzards requests because if they dont the US will enforce it, as they should. You must respect the owner of the product. Do I agree with blizzard on this? Not entirely. I think they should set up some compensation system. They will simply make a profit based on the success of the prodcasting. A percentage cut. not an entire flat rate. The issue here is the following; Kespa is taking a product. That belongs to blizzard. they are then _selling the rights to broadcast this product_ Without compensating blizzard. Kespa is SELLING Starcarft without paying the OWNERS of Starcraft. You simply cannot do that, and it is true for all sports an content all over the world. To broadcast the world cup you do not pay the particular arena that is hosting it, you pay the organization that owns the rights to the world cup, and that is how it should be. Just my ideas. Obviously I'm a little biased because I develop games for a living, but I hate blizzards guts right now for trying to end BW... but I understand where they are coming from.
If you have followed the situation though, KeSPA is willing to pay license fees. It's the other demands that are unprecedented and in my opinion unreasonable. They want control over every aspect of the tournaments and teams pretty much.
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Canada11607 Posts
On October 13 2010 03:34 infinity2k9 wrote:
If you have followed the situation though, KeSPA is willing to pay license fees. It's the other demands that are unprecedented and in my opinion unreasonable. They want control over every aspect of the tournaments and teams pretty much.
But I have followed for a time- since the first gomtv series and I've read the long essay-posts written by Kespa apologists. It's not like Kespa was offering money back in 2007 and before when they were selling the licenses to broadcast SCBW to the other proleagues. It's more like when Blizzard was finally big enough to stand up to Kespa, Kespa sent a peace offering.
As for the control aspect, mostly it winds up being an argument over the interpretation of the terms, depending on how dastardly you think Blizzard is, depends on how intrusive you think they will be. Personally, I think the hands off approach with GomTV is how they would run SCBW as well. The thing I see a lot of their terms to do with controlling the image of SC so that Blizzard can nix some idea that associated the proleagues with human trafficking or something. (Or like that whole Savior game fixing. Not that Kespa really had much to do with it, but it's those sorts of bad press releases that I think Blizzard would prefer to avoid having associated with game.)
It's quite possible that Blizzard may be wanting to address the 'working' conditions of the gamers. That might upset how things operate, but I think it's necessary. I can think of few sports that require so much practice time, that requires such a sacrifice in your secondary education, and that requires such a sacrifice in your social life. (One of the reasons Idra's not terribly interested in joining a Korean team for the time being.) I know there's those people that say 'Suck it. Give me moar entertainment.' But I'm not convinced that extra edge gained by practicing 12 hours a day is worth having gamers burn out so fast and sacrifice so much so I can be entertained. Even dropping it back to 8 hrs would have us seeing some high calibre games. Note, I'm talking about time spent, education sacrificed etc. Nothing to do with payment. I know it's a new 'sport' and not everyone is going to be making tons of money.
Although I do think Kespa was crucial for the development of esports in Korea, I do not think they have the individual gamers best interest in mind whatever Jaedong may think. I think they sacrifice a lot of gamers in the name of esports and entertainment.
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United States11393 Posts
On October 12 2010 22:21 infinity2k9 wrote:
Unrelated, but why are the BW logo's from signatures gone? Disappointed if they actually removed them...
??
They are still there in all the same forums that they have existed in before. (Featured news, BW forums, replays etc.)
They just aren't in the community news and headlines forum if that is what you are referring to.
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On October 13 2010 07:44 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 03:34 infinity2k9 wrote:
If you have followed the situation though, KeSPA is willing to pay license fees. It's the other demands that are unprecedented and in my opinion unreasonable. They want control over every aspect of the tournaments and teams pretty much. But I have followed for a time- since the first gomtv series and I've read the long essay-posts written by Kespa apologists. It's not like Kespa was offering money back in 2007 and before when they were selling the licenses to broadcast SCBW to the other proleagues. It's more like when Blizzard was finally big enough to stand up to Kespa, Kespa sent a peace offering. As for the control aspect, mostly it winds up being an argument over the interpretation of the terms, depending on how dastardly you think Blizzard is, depends on how intrusive you think they will be. Personally, I think the hands off approach with GomTV is how they would run SCBW as well. The thing I see a lot of their terms to do with controlling the image of SC so that Blizzard can nix some idea that associated the proleagues with human trafficking or something. (Or like that whole Savior game fixing. Not that Kespa really had much to do with it, but it's those sorts of bad press releases that I think Blizzard would prefer to avoid having associated with game.) It's quite possible that Blizzard may be wanting to address the 'working' conditions of the gamers. That might upset how things operate, but I think it's necessary. I can think of few sports that require so much practice time, that requires such a sacrifice in your secondary education, and that requires such a sacrifice in your social life. (One of the reasons Idra's not terribly interested in joining a Korean team for the time being.) I know there's those people that say 'Suck it. Give me moar entertainment.' But I'm not convinced that extra edge gained by practicing 12 hours a day is worth having gamers burn out so fast and sacrifice so much so I can be entertained. Even dropping it back to 8 hrs would have us seeing some high calibre games. Note, I'm talking about time spent, education sacrificed etc. Nothing to do with payment. I know it's a new 'sport' and not everyone is going to be making tons of money. Although I do think Kespa was crucial for the development of esports in Korea, I do not think they have the individual gamers best interest in mind whatever Jaedong may think. I think they sacrifice a lot of gamers in the name of esports and entertainment.
Who care if you were following anything if you can't read with comprehension.
KeSPA did not sell broadcasting rights to "other proleagues" (what is this i don't even...). They sold the broadcasting rights to ProLeague - their product - to the actual broadcasters/companies interested in obtaining them (in that case it was IEG).
I also wonder how blizzard is supposedly going to address the working conditions of progamers. So far the only thing they managed to do is devolve the scene to the level it was at nearly ten years ago - just WOW, such talent!
For your information, teams like CJ spend 40 million dollars a year to sustain themselves, and according to you the working conditions they provide are somehow bad (far from the truth). Do you think blizzard is going to spend more? on just one team? will they maybe support several teams (like KeSPA does)? Huh? Are they going to restrict progamers from playing more than required time? Because for most teams the required practice time is 8-9 hours...
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Urgg.. Blizz fans are getting significantly more desperate in their arguments.. Blizz are suddenly trying to address progamer's living condition now, through killing off BW.. Its 7am now (havnt slept) so in the off chance that you (Falling) are trolling, i wont feed you.
Also, whats with the current standard of pracising 8-10 hours a day? Is there something wrong?.. Half the time it is the player who want to train more, not like they are forced to at all.. And imo you are seriously delusional if you think Blizz cares about progamers' living condition or training hours or stuffs like that.
Peace out.
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On October 13 2010 08:12 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 07:44 Falling wrote:On October 13 2010 03:34 infinity2k9 wrote:
If you have followed the situation though, KeSPA is willing to pay license fees. It's the other demands that are unprecedented and in my opinion unreasonable. They want control over every aspect of the tournaments and teams pretty much. But I have followed for a time- since the first gomtv series and I've read the long essay-posts written by Kespa apologists. It's not like Kespa was offering money back in 2007 and before when they were selling the licenses to broadcast SCBW to the other proleagues. It's more like when Blizzard was finally big enough to stand up to Kespa, Kespa sent a peace offering. As for the control aspect, mostly it winds up being an argument over the interpretation of the terms, depending on how dastardly you think Blizzard is, depends on how intrusive you think they will be. Personally, I think the hands off approach with GomTV is how they would run SCBW as well. The thing I see a lot of their terms to do with controlling the image of SC so that Blizzard can nix some idea that associated the proleagues with human trafficking or something. (Or like that whole Savior game fixing. Not that Kespa really had much to do with it, but it's those sorts of bad press releases that I think Blizzard would prefer to avoid having associated with game.) It's quite possible that Blizzard may be wanting to address the 'working' conditions of the gamers. That might upset how things operate, but I think it's necessary. I can think of few sports that require so much practice time, that requires such a sacrifice in your secondary education, and that requires such a sacrifice in your social life. (One of the reasons Idra's not terribly interested in joining a Korean team for the time being.) I know there's those people that say 'Suck it. Give me moar entertainment.' But I'm not convinced that extra edge gained by practicing 12 hours a day is worth having gamers burn out so fast and sacrifice so much so I can be entertained. Even dropping it back to 8 hrs would have us seeing some high calibre games. Note, I'm talking about time spent, education sacrificed etc. Nothing to do with payment. I know it's a new 'sport' and not everyone is going to be making tons of money. Although I do think Kespa was crucial for the development of esports in Korea, I do not think they have the individual gamers best interest in mind whatever Jaedong may think. I think they sacrifice a lot of gamers in the name of esports and entertainment. Who care if you were following anything if you can't read with comprehension. KeSPA did not sell broadcasting rights to "other proleagues" (what is this i don't even...). They sold the broadcasting rights to ProLeague - their product - to the actual broadcasters/companies interested in obtaining them (in that case it was IEG). I also wonder how blizzard is supposedly going to address the working conditions of progamers. So far the only thing they managed to do is devolve the scene to the level it was at nearly ten years ago - just WOW, such talent! For your information, teams like CJ spend 40 million dollars a year to sustain themselves, and according to you the working conditions they provide are somehow bad (far from the truth). Do you think blizzard is going to spend more? on just one team? will they maybe support several teams (like KeSPA does)? Huh? Are they going to restrict progamers from playing more than required time? Because for most teams the required practice time is 8-9 hours...
40 million dollars? What are they eating, golden ramen or what?
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On October 11 2010 10:53 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 10:46 pzea469 wrote:
i dont get it, how is blizzard wanting money for kespa using their game to make money unreasonable?
Blizzard has the total right to cash, whether you think its an ass move or not is completely irrelevant. Doesn't matter how much hard work kespa put into it, its simply not their game.
maybe im missing something, but thats how it sounds right now Please read the thread before commenting... seriously, this was posted 2 pages ago: Show nested quote +On October 10 2010 16:03 ffreakk wrote:
@ BLinD-RawR
Which offer are you talking about? MBC is making a BETTER offer than OGN and is getting rejected.
As for Blizz's unacceptable demands, you can read up more about it rather than just claiming them as wrong.
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year
2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan
3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement
4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos
5. Right to audit KeSPA
I assume that it is clear to you how these demands are unreasonable, so i wont explain (ok maybe 3 is marginally reasonable, if you omit the sponsor part). Take a good look at Blizz's condition yourself. Do those conditions sound reasonable? I think not. Kespa also agreed to paying royalties, but did not agree to any of the other above terms.
Sorry i didnt read but there are quite a few pages and im not going to read all of them. Thanks for posting back with the demands. I read them and even though it seems real harsh, i think they probably have the right to all that. I think its messed up, but thats how it works. Blizzard did just sit idly by and definitely sort of supported progaming in korea, especially with inviting the players to blizzcon and stuff like that. But even though they seemed friendly at the time, they dont have to be. They didnt sign anything, and it makes complete sense that they now try to pwn kespa when they have a competing product out. I think its a dick move but thats how companies and stuff work. Blizzard can just say, hey kespa, you cant ever use my games to make money anymore. Its cold for sure, but yeah.... I love bw too, but im just looking at it without bias. Again this is just my opinion, maybe i'm still misinformed.
Basically what im saying is this
Kespa uses blizz game, blizz doesnt do anything
all of a sudden they want a trillion dollars for every second bw stays on tv.
Horrible deal for kespa, but they cant do anything because blizz can demand whatever price they want, regardless of how unreasonable it is. no?
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Hope this gets resolved soon and we get some BW back. SC2 doesn't deserve fame at the cost of a dead Brood War.
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On October 13 2010 10:20 Emon_ wrote:
Why the hell doesn't Blizzard step in and side with BW? It's their game, and a scene that is nowhere near dead unless they interfere and start setting up negotiations that aren't going ANYWHERE!!! Frustration is reaching critical levels. Hope they gobble good on that SC2 log, and that people become wise to their ways and support some other game instead.
yeah its almost like they WANT bw to die. Not sarcasm, i just think that MAYBE this is true.
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Canada11607 Posts
On October 13 2010 08:12 maybenexttime wrote:
Who care if you were following anything if you can't read with comprehension.
KeSPA did not sell broadcasting rights to "other proleagues" (what is this i don't even...). They sold the broadcasting rights to ProLeague - their product - to the actual broadcasters/companies interested in obtaining them (in that case it was IEG).
I also wonder how blizzard is supposedly going to address the working conditions of progamers. So far the only thing they managed to do is devolve the scene to the level it was at nearly ten years ago - just WOW, such talent!
For your information, teams like CJ spend 40 million dollars a year to sustain themselves, and according to you the working conditions they provide are somehow bad (far from the truth). Do you think blizzard is going to spend more? on just one team? will they maybe support several teams (like KeSPA does)? Huh? Are they going to restrict progamers from playing more than required time? Because for most teams the required practice time is 8-9 hours...
You'll note I said quite possible that Bliz would be interested in the work conditions. Beyond that, I wouldn't forsee Bliz intruding in the SCBW scene despite the terms of conditions. That is, I see Bliz as essentially non-interventionist, but is concerned with possible image issues and making sure their IP is protected/ have monetary compensation for broadcasting. So then, working conditions being the only reason for Bliz to step in, and if you and ffreakk think they won't, then I would see Bliz not intruding any further.
I was very careful stating that conditions had nothing to do with money and everything to do with education, social life, and unhealthy amount of hours of practice.
@ffreakk. Not a troll, not ever. But given the current state of emotions, I don't see this thread going anywhere and I would hate to unnecessarily cause you stress, I'll peace out myself.
Cheers.
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EPT
