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On September 03 2010 01:57 leakingpear wrote:
That precludes the idea of team based short tournaments which is somewhat absurd given the need for teams as a training tool.
So you rather have no sponsored teams? People living in cramped apartments living of instant ramen every single day? You actually justifies what Gretech is doing and completely negates what players like Boxer, Nal_Ra, NaDa and lots of other great gamers put their heart in to building? Forget about KeSPA and the pro teams, you are supporting that you as a fan should pay more money and the players should have a less training environment just because blizzard say so?
Who's immoral really?
It's been said before but the only thing in common these two games has is the name Starcraft, Blizzard isn't even the same company that once produced those golden games. Blizzard died the day BlizzNorth left.
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I'm confused, I was saying that you need teams at the very least as a training tool and therefore need to be able to support players who are not directly winning prize money. Prize money is much more of a tool to establish market dominance rather than a way of sustaining the eSport going forward.
It's also really dangerous to hold up the KeSPA model of teams as a good idea, it promotes incredibly long hours, incredibly low pay and the entire justification is 'well they can leave if they can't handle it'. They only provide token gestures of maintaining education programs and provide little to no support for the vast majority of players who get older and less proficient. The lack of real world skills means that players that give up huge parts of their life to pursue their dream end up being useless outside that very small, very intensely competitive field. As much as everyone would like to believe that Savior et al are all evil masterminds, they were just incredibly stupid kids with a somewhat realistic attitude to how the future is as a progamer on the bad side of their peak. The reason I say incredibly stupid is because of the absurdly small amount of money involved, which implied far more about the lack of real world education that these kids have more than anything.
edit: I never justified what any party in this shitstorm is doing, I just provided context behind their decision making, business is pragmatic, not emotional and treating it as such is ignoring the issue at hand.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
This game was made by the players. They took the game and played it. They didn't care at first that they were poor, that nobody supported them. They played the game. Then the teams came afterward, and then the money started coming in. No, the distribution of wealth is not even, but they still do it. They love the game. Brood War started ESPORTS. While there's no definitive textbook method of creating an ESPORTS market, I am not liking this. If/When Brood War dies because of Starcraft II, what happens to them?
What happens to the Coach Chos, the Lim Yo Hwans, the people that started this game from scratch. Are they forced to start over with SCII? What about the commentators?
I'm really not liking this. If Brood War goes away, I'm going with it. True, the game wasn't perfected and made into its current form for a while, and I'm willing to give Starcraft II a chance.
But that's years in the making.
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On September 03 2010 02:38 leakingpear wrote:
I'm confused, I was saying that you need teams at the very least as a training tool and therefore need to be able to support players who are not directly winning prize money. Prize money is much more of a tool to establish market dominance rather than a way of sustaining the eSport going forward.
It's also really dangerous to hold up the KeSPA model of teams as a good idea, it promotes incredibly long hours, incredibly low pay and the entire justification is 'well they can leave if they can't handle it'. They only provide token gestures of maintaining education programs and provide little to no support for the vast majority of players who get older and less proficient. The lack of real world skills means that players that give up huge parts of their life to pursue their dream end up being useless outside that very small, very intensely competitive field. As much as everyone would like to believe that Savior et al are all evil masterminds, they were just incredibly stupid kids with a somewhat realistic attitude to how the future is as a progamer on the bad side of their peak. The reason I say incredibly stupid is because of the absurdly small amount of money involved, which implied far more about the lack of real world education that these kids have more than anything.
And why should you or I or blizzard control what they should do or not. They CAN leave whenever they want and go get a job just like everyone else. KeSPA is not forcing them to stay in e-sports or anything like that.
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On September 03 2010 02:38 leakingpear wrote:
I'm confused, I was saying that you need teams at the very least as a training tool and therefore need to be able to support players who are not directly winning prize money. Prize money is much more of a tool to establish market dominance rather than a way of sustaining the eSport going forward.
It's also really dangerous to hold up the KeSPA model of teams as a good idea, it promotes incredibly long hours, incredibly low pay and the entire justification is 'well they can leave if they can't handle it'. They only provide token gestures of maintaining education programs and provide little to no support for the vast majority of players who get older and less proficient. The lack of real world skills means that players that give up huge parts of their life to pursue their dream end up being useless outside that very small, very intensely competitive field. As much as everyone would like to believe that Savior et al are all evil masterminds, they were just incredibly stupid kids with a somewhat realistic attitude to how the future is as a progamer on the bad side of their peak. The reason I say incredibly stupid is because of the absurdly small amount of money involved, which implied far more about the lack of real world education that these kids have more than anything.
Actually, while you bring up a good point about the nature of progaming, using Savior as an example is a bad move, since he really was just stupid.
See, A/B-teamers do give up a lot, and past their prime their qualifications are dubious. S-class players (especially ones of Savior/Oov/Nada/Boxer/July's caliber) have it made long after their prime. For one, they are kept on their teams with high paying contracts long after their decline as role models/idols because they bring in the fans, even though they may not play much (if at all). Additionally, they are pretty much guaranteed a job should they want to proceed into coaching/commentating. Savior had no actual worries about what would happen with him, he just got greedy.
Back to the topic though, yes, the current team system isn't as good as it can be, but its better than it was and has been improving over the years. esports are still young in nature, and there is a lot to build up. Blizzard however is in the midst of destroying all the progress from the past 10 years.
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Ok I give up, ciao.
Edit: That was meant to come after Mayuu's post.
Edit2: You're right about Savior being a bad example, it's just the go to name to quote when referencing the fixing scandal.
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As an example to moopie's point, WeMade Fox maintains 15+ BW players and 4 WC3 players (and 5 CS players). Take away Proleague and there is no need to maintain such a large roster and the support staff needed with it.
I'm sure most people dislike Kespa, but right now it's not a choice between Kespa and something better but between Kespa and nothing. Gretech is a laughable replacement. They have no intention of supporting the players in any way other than hosting tournaments and giving prize money.
As an aside, I dislike the fact that there is no general governing body for SC2 because you end up with player segregation, which can already be seen with the GSL and the MLG. I don't really care if there are a lot of different tournaments if all the good players aren't competing in them all.
On September 03 2010 02:24 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 01:50 btx0 wrote:On September 03 2010 01:29 Plexa wrote:Personally I don't care either way, I prefer knockout tournaments over the long league structure of the Proleague, I find it too hard to keep up with all the games and trends, but I see the appeal and understand people's reactions to the idea that it will be gone. Proleague is the veyr heart and soul of BW. If Proleauge dies then BW will die. It's existence gives companies a reason to invest in BW still (Hite gets x10 more airtime from PL than Leta appearing in the OSL for instance). It gives commentators real jobs, it gives fans something to cheer for. And after all, PL traditionally is the event that more korean fans follow. So yea, losing PL is a massive deal. That is the case now, I agree, but it doesn't mean a sport cannot succeed built only on tournaments, works quite well for tennis (or snooker if you prefer a non mainstream example), though the playtime/match would have to be increased, which wouldn't be a problem if proleague was out of the picture, you could even play matches in several sittings if the "required airtime" was more than the players could handle. the only reason tennis/golf work is that players are paid almost regardless of where they place. even if you dont win or come that close to winning you still get money to support yourself. unless you are willing to split that 80k in descending amounts among the top 16 at the least in every tourny, its not going to work. and 80k split 16 ways becomes much less appealing.
To be fair, it's actually like ~170k total, with ~85k going to the winner. See http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_Starcraft_II_League
Still, the distribution of prizes is pretty wonky.
On September 03 2010 01:49 FishForThought wrote:
I think Blizzard/GomTV is better for esport by hosting easily accessible tournaments and world exposure
It only costs $50/month for dubious services. Outside of hardcore people, I don't really see the general public eating that up.
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On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote:
I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period.
Kespa: Non-profit organization?
Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses.
That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights.
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On September 03 2010 02:57 Furycrab wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote:
I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period. Kespa: Non-profit organization? Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses. That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights.
And blizzard should have said from the beginning that they wanted IP right, OH WAIT Activision WASN'T IN THE PICTURE THEN.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
The GSL conflict thing is the fucking stupidest most bullshit shit I have ever heard. Fuck.
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On September 03 2010 03:19 Murderotica wrote:
The GSL conflict thing is the fucking stupidest most bullshit shit I have ever heard. Fuck.
I totally empathise with Gretech there. I mean, if Proleague was on, would you skip it to watch former pros and foreigners flail around in SC2?
However it is most definately bullshit, kespa ain't perfect but they're certainly better than this fucking actizardgretechgom orgy of crap...
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On September 03 2010 03:18 MaYuu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 02:57 Furycrab wrote:On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote:
I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period. Kespa: Non-profit organization? Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses. That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights. And blizzard should have said from the beginning that they wanted IP right, OH WAIT Activision WASN'T IN THE PICTURE THEN.
Wrong. If there's anything in this entire thread that isn't debatable due to lack of knowledge, it's this: Blizzard approached Kespa quite a while ago to, indeed, protect their IP rights with a stern no and nothing more. All the rest is fallout from there. Blizzard's always asked Kespa to keep their rights in mind, it's only now it's gotten to the point where people are playing a cold war with the games.
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Croatia9554 Posts
On September 03 2010 01:49 Furycrab wrote:
However to me Gretech is what Kespa should have been X years ago... A partner working with the guys who are making the product, rather than a partner that has been biting and scratching at Blizzard almost the whole way thru to try and make more... Makes me kinda sad that all of this is likely going to be decided by some judge who knows nothing of gaming or esports in general.
Are you kidding me?
Do you see that poll on the right side of page?
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On September 03 2010 03:18 MaYuu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 02:57 Furycrab wrote:On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote:
I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period. Kespa: Non-profit organization? Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses. That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights. And blizzard should have said from the beginning that they wanted IP right, OH WAIT Activision WASN'T IN THE PICTURE THEN.
Take off your tinfoil hat, Activision has nothing to do with this.
Blizzard has on multiple occasions stated to Kespa that what they were doing wasn't Kosher with them, and Kespa response on multiple occasion was that they didn't owe blizzard anything other than maybe software copies. Kespa almost wouldn't come to any sort of table for the longest of time just chosing to keep ignoring Blizzard while they spread the profits over a network of various teams, executives and god knows where else you could hide money so that if any law suit broke out they could just say: Kespa makes 0 dinero. They even practically ran GOMtv out of the BW race using it's network of sponsors and players to boycot it.
Still very debatable how much Kespa owes to Blizzard for making the game or how such relations should be managed, however if they are at this point (threatening to disband proleague) is mostly because they burned every bridge they had with Blizzard, multiple times, with Siegetanks.
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On September 03 2010 03:33 Kibibit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 03:18 MaYuu wrote:On September 03 2010 02:57 Furycrab wrote:On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote:
I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period. Kespa: Non-profit organization? Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses. That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights. And blizzard should have said from the beginning that they wanted IP right, OH WAIT Activision WASN'T IN THE PICTURE THEN. Wrong. If there's anything in this entire thread that isn't debatable due to lack of knowledge, it's this: Blizzard approached Kespa quite a while ago to, indeed, protect their IP rights with a stern no and nothing more. All the rest is fallout from there. Blizzard's always asked Kespa to keep their rights in mind, it's only now it's gotten to the point where people are playing a cold war with the games.
If you are so well informed might telling us when exactly did blizzard approached them " quite a while ago " ? As far as i know i started watching pro SC at the middle 2007 and IP rights started geting thrown after SC2 was developed to a stage where beta was starting .
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On September 03 2010 03:42 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 03:33 Kibibit wrote:On September 03 2010 03:18 MaYuu wrote:On September 03 2010 02:57 Furycrab wrote:On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote:
I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period. Kespa: Non-profit organization? Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses. That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights. And blizzard should have said from the beginning that they wanted IP right, OH WAIT Activision WASN'T IN THE PICTURE THEN. Wrong. If there's anything in this entire thread that isn't debatable due to lack of knowledge, it's this: Blizzard approached Kespa quite a while ago to, indeed, protect their IP rights with a stern no and nothing more. All the rest is fallout from there. Blizzard's always asked Kespa to keep their rights in mind, it's only now it's gotten to the point where people are playing a cold war with the games. If you are so well informed might telling us when exactly did blizzard approached them " quite a while ago " ? As far as i know i started watching pro SC at the middle 2007 and IP rights started geting thrown after SC2 was developed to a stage where beta was starting .
If you can findout when Kespa started charging ticket for live Starcraft events, it's around that time. Pretty sure it's way before 2007 or the Sc2 announcement.
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On September 03 2010 04:13 Furycrab wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 03:42 raga4ka wrote:On September 03 2010 03:33 Kibibit wrote:On September 03 2010 03:18 MaYuu wrote:On September 03 2010 02:57 Furycrab wrote:On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote:
I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period. Kespa: Non-profit organization? Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses. That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights. And blizzard should have said from the beginning that they wanted IP right, OH WAIT Activision WASN'T IN THE PICTURE THEN. Wrong. If there's anything in this entire thread that isn't debatable due to lack of knowledge, it's this: Blizzard approached Kespa quite a while ago to, indeed, protect their IP rights with a stern no and nothing more. All the rest is fallout from there. Blizzard's always asked Kespa to keep their rights in mind, it's only now it's gotten to the point where people are playing a cold war with the games. If you are so well informed might telling us when exactly did blizzard approached them " quite a while ago " ? As far as i know i started watching pro SC at the middle 2007 and IP rights started geting thrown after SC2 was developed to a stage where beta was starting . If you can findout when Kespa started charging ticket for live Starcraft events, it's around that time. Pretty sure it's way before 2007 or the Sc2 announcement.
Nope, Both of you are wrong, It was actually in 2007 that everythin started, around the time SCII was announced, but it is okay if you had missed, since it wasn't such a big deal, Blizzard weren;t threatening to remove ProLeague and such IIRC
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On September 03 2010 03:42 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 03:33 Kibibit wrote:On September 03 2010 03:18 MaYuu wrote:On September 03 2010 02:57 Furycrab wrote:On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote:
I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period. Kespa: Non-profit organization? Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses. That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights. And blizzard should have said from the beginning that they wanted IP right, OH WAIT Activision WASN'T IN THE PICTURE THEN. Wrong. If there's anything in this entire thread that isn't debatable due to lack of knowledge, it's this: Blizzard approached Kespa quite a while ago to, indeed, protect their IP rights with a stern no and nothing more. All the rest is fallout from there. Blizzard's always asked Kespa to keep their rights in mind, it's only now it's gotten to the point where people are playing a cold war with the games. If you are so well informed might telling us when exactly did blizzard approached them " quite a while ago " ? As far as i know i started watching pro SC at the middle 2007 and IP rights started geting thrown after SC2 was developed to a stage where beta was starting .
It doesn't matter. Blizzard has always had the IP rights to SC. Other people aren't supposed to profit off of their intellectual property without their permission.
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On September 03 2010 04:24 Mortician wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 04:13 Furycrab wrote:On September 03 2010 03:42 raga4ka wrote:On September 03 2010 03:33 Kibibit wrote:On September 03 2010 03:18 MaYuu wrote:On September 03 2010 02:57 Furycrab wrote:On September 03 2010 02:15 LastPrime wrote:
I love how some kids who just started playing SC2 and have no clue about SC:BW say stupidest ever. Blizzard/Gretech are being unreasonable - all this drama started because they basically wanted to remove brood war progaming to make space for starcraft 2. Of course that isn't happening - you can't just take down a "national sport" by force. It is totally understandable for me that Kespa, a nonprofit organization that has existed for the purpose of nurturing this culture of e-sports, is doing what they can to continue the existence of the said culture. Guess what will happen to starcraft e-sports iff Kespa is gone - it will be gone too! Whoa?! BTW let me clarify something yet again in these forums, tournament money doesn't mean much to the progamers. Winning tournaments gives progamers the PRESTIGE necessary to gain a better contract from their teams, which constitutes most of their earnings. Understand? So GSL is not a big deal. If there's GSL but no proleague/MSL/OSL, korean brood war esports is dead. Period. Kespa: Non-profit organization? Wherever there is money to be made in this world, there is a bunch of guys in suits likely making decisions and banking checks. If an organization doesn't have stockholders to split the profits, they have highly paid executives working and cashing in bonuses. That they have employees, players, commentators, event organisers etc etc etc... is very commendable, but they are still in it for the money, and they are in this situation because they refuse to acknowledge that they should be paying for the IP rights. And blizzard should have said from the beginning that they wanted IP right, OH WAIT Activision WASN'T IN THE PICTURE THEN. Wrong. If there's anything in this entire thread that isn't debatable due to lack of knowledge, it's this: Blizzard approached Kespa quite a while ago to, indeed, protect their IP rights with a stern no and nothing more. All the rest is fallout from there. Blizzard's always asked Kespa to keep their rights in mind, it's only now it's gotten to the point where people are playing a cold war with the games. If you are so well informed might telling us when exactly did blizzard approached them " quite a while ago " ? As far as i know i started watching pro SC at the middle 2007 and IP rights started geting thrown after SC2 was developed to a stage where beta was starting . If you can findout when Kespa started charging ticket for live Starcraft events, it's around that time. Pretty sure it's way before 2007 or the Sc2 announcement. Nope, Both of you are wrong, It was actually in 2007 that everythin started, around the time SCII was announced, but it is okay if you had missed, since it wasn't such a big deal, Blizzard weren;t threatening to remove ProLeague and such IIRC
2007 was when the talks for SC2 started. BW talks were pretty much at a stalemate because the Korean government in Blizzard vs Kespa over SC1 judged that Kespa should have the same considerations as an organisational body like the FIFA is for another certain sport and thus all decisions should go through them.
You can argue and say that they pretty much gave up on Starcraft, but it's a safe bet when you get the Government involved to resolve a dispute, there are no bridges or even pieces left over to be fixed. So they went with a competitor that was willing to work with them. GOM is certainly not pulling punches now that Kespa has lost network and sponsor support, but seeing the present history of these two bodies... it's not exactly surprising.
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this story changes every article that comes out. Usually says statement of stance and unwillingness to negotiate on both sides. Likely all the KESPA siders just love BW and fear it will die, and gretech/blizzard supporters want SC2 to be supported.
I think the story changes by the daily, but really who trusts either side. Even if KESPA is listed as a non-profit, it doesn't mean they don't make money by advertising their products or anything else, just that they don't make direct money off certain portions of their televised entertainment. It's still advertising for them.
Also if you notice in the article they never mention how much people have, likely do to korean protection laws and the Non-Disclosure-Agreement they signed regarding their negotiations. So really there is no hard evidence here that isn't more than word of mouth.
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EPT
