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On May 20 2010 14:55 Milkis wrote:
My biggest issue with KeSPA and the teams is that they don't operate like a profit making business. Where's the merchandise, and why do I have to wait for specific times to get my starcraft merchandise? Why not sell tickets, why not sell tickets to meet the players, etc?
Just because 50 people on teamliquid would pay $200 for an mbcgame hoodie doesn't mean there's money to be made.
None of us have any idea about the demand and costs for anything progaming related. I can give you my common sense assurance the people who are paid to run a business try their best to maximize profit. I mean they're already doing a pretty good job on the labor front lol.
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United States12607 Posts
On May 20 2010 14:55 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +However I really object to your statement that the current regime (KeSPA's regulations) are not preventing players from improving their situations. Being denied agents and allowed only a fake, puppet players union obviously kills bargaining power for progamers. Without agents, players (keep in mind these are kids) are being denied the opportunity to get smart, adult counsel on their contract terms and therefore they are opened up to exploitation by their teams. For a prime example of this you need look no further than Jaedong's free agency imbroglio of last fall. I wrote about that here, and I think it's an excellent example of how an awful system of regulations (KeSPA's "Free Agency") hurt a player's ability to get "market" or "fair" wages for his play. Now that you have clarified what you have meant (I have completely misinterpreted it since I was under the impression we were talking about B team players), I agree that those kinds of restrictions are unnecessary, and hinders players from improving their conditions. I don't think agents, however, is feasible -- remember that these players don't have the monetary power to get such advice, and you and I both know exactly what will happen if the teams decide to provide agents for the players as a whole. My biggest issue with KeSPA and the teams is that they don't operate like a profit making business. Where's the merchandise, and why do I have to wait for specific times to get my starcraft merchandise? Why not sell tickets, why not sell tickets to meet the players, etc? The biggest thing is that the teams get all of their money from sponsors right now, and that's pretty much why any "rights" or "agencies" will be nothing but a farce at this point. When teams have their own income and balances and get more and more independent, that's when Free Agency comes in, and that's when you can actually get what you want to get. (IE, we need billionaires buying teams and buying all the top players, Yankees style), before we do have conditions like the ones for Baseball or any major sports. Progamers can't bargain, because they're not bargaining with teams, they're bargaining with sponsors. That's a tough sell.
Last post before I hit the sack, I have 2 things to say in response:
1) Of course it's feasible for players without money to get agents, agents will work for a cut of any contract they negotiate. All you need is talent to get an agent. And I'm not saying that we need every crappy BW player to have his own agent, but that in the case of major players and major contracts (e.g. Jaedong) an agent is almost necessary to be sure that a player can get what he wants.
Sidenote: Progamers' immaturity is a handicap just like a lot of professional footballers' stupidity. I mean can you imagine what NFL contracts would look like if some of of these oafs were not allowed to negotiate them with an agent, but had to rely only on their own skills and that of their parents?? Both BW players and NFL players are probably smart enough to realize that they could use an agent to help them negotiate with their team, but not smart enough to do the negotiations properly themselves.
2) You raise a fantastic point about it being a problem that teams are reliant on sponsors for their incomes. Your suggestions for how these teams could make money (selling tickets to meet players etc.) are smart but I think the biggest issue here is that teams are not seeing enough of the money from the gaming networks. In SC the money is all in broadcasting really, if I had to guess I would say that it is OGN and MBC who are making out like bandits on eSports. Teams need more opportunity to tap into that revenue flow—as the system is now, we have them relying on sponsors for funding while KeSPA, OGN, and MBC seem to be siphoning off all of the profits from broadcast matches. Yet another bogus, inefficient aspect of the current progaming regime that is likely to change in the absence of KeSPA.
Another sidenote: I'm curious what role the government has in all this. KeSPA is technically a government organization no? That just makes this whole business all the shadier.
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the reality in the end, is only koreans can solve this. our western ideas, doesnt work the same there.
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take into consideration that cost of living is way less in korea compared to other countries and keep in mind that progamers are given free housing and food :o
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 20 2010 15:04 JWD wrote:
2) You raise a fantastic point about it being a problem that teams are reliant on sponsors for their incomes. Your suggestions for how these teams could make money (selling tickets to meet players etc.) are smart but I think the biggest issue here is that teams are not seeing enough of the money from the gaming networks. In SC the money is all in broadcasting really, if I had to guess I would say that it is OGN and MBC who are making out like bandits on eSports. Teams need more opportunity to tap into that revenue flow—as the system is now, we have them relying on sponsors for funding while KeSPA, OGN, and MBC seem to be siphoning off all of the profits from broadcast matches. Yet another bogus, inefficient aspect of the current progaming regime that is likely to change in the absence of KeSPA.
OGN and MBCGame already pay Kespa for broadcasting rights. I would guess that Kespa uses the money to pay it's staff and then it's shareholders (Individual Teams). I remember reading an article that says that tv ratings have been falling the last few years. If you watch live streams, you'll also notice that there are less commercials and than before (more commentator talk unfortunately). But that might be a temporary effect of the economic depression. I really doubt OGN and MBCgame is raking in cash. The parent company MBC is actually losing a lot of money right now because businesses reduced their advertising budget due to the economic depression.
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On May 19 2010 16:23 Creationism wrote:
Although the story is very compelling, taking a step back and looking at the situation from a different point of view helps. Progaming, besides the highest level, really has absolutely no service to society. It is basically a form of entertainment through competition in a genre that honestly has a large amount of negative externalities. This is different from sports in that sports require something called physical talent and narrows the pool down, while gaming's requirements are a lot lax.
So instead of the select few talented and truely amazing people taking up the industry of entertainment and competition, you have massive crowding. Realistically, the reason why the progamers come out of their short and taxing careers to nothing, because they developed no skills to produce or even function in society. This is somewhat akin to the African American population in America, where the teenagers basically give up education to endeavor in sports. Sure, many have made it; but the ratio of success is quite low.
I honestly don't think this kind of behavior should be supported at all. I think I remember a friend and I talking about progaming, and he said: "If you support your children in becoming progamers, you are a terrible parent." And there's a lot of truth to that. If the teenagers are too wound up in their dreams of grandeur, then the more mature parent have to keep them from throwing their lives away.
Firstly, a huge thanks for the translation to l10f ! Amazing job. None of the information there is surprising to me though unfortunately... It's a large reason I'm so very much looking forward to the death of KeSPA (despite the almost guaranteed death of pro SC:BW that will follow).
On to the above; I have to disagree heartily with these notions that a) physical sports require some form of talent that is more unique than talent required to successfully perform in high level BW and that b) there is the 'massive crowding' in gaming when compared to other areas of entertainment and sport.
There are countless, countless people who play sports, create art/music and so on in an attempt to get to the top of their field and/or make a living. Like in Brood War, it is not surprising that huge numbers fail to do so. It is natural; they are all fields in which there is serious competition, either directly in sport (player v player, or team v team), or in competition for sales from general consumers as is the case with art/music. To illustrate, think about the tennis circuit. There are hundreds of players in professional ranks who you doubtless haven't even heard of. Below that are satellite tour players trying to improve their play and break into the professional scene in a big way. Below them again are national level tournaments. Then state level. And so on and so forth until the players can be delineated to the bottom of the barrel the mid-week ladies competition that is far removed from the upper echelons of the sport. Thousands upon thousands of tennis players will play seriously, attempting to go professional. The vast majority will and do fail. As you said yourself, the success ratio is low.
BW is no different. There are professionals with their licenses, and there are B teamers trying to improve their play and break into the pro scene. The glaring differences are the standards of living and unreasonable requirements placed on B teamers that you simply cannot place, for the most part, on a satellite tour tennis player or an artist or a musician (talking about people from progressed countries of course).
Totally agree with your final paragraph though. At present, the idea of supporting a child to become a progamer is absolutely fraught with danger and real risk to the remainder of that child's life. Until the industry (read KeSPA) develops nobody should be actively encouraged or enticed to enter it; least of all children.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Rainbow who was thrown out of SKT1 for attending the Beyonce concert?
Great article and translation! It really hits all they key problems of kespa and korean esports.
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At least they have a chance of making $ for their 13 hours sitting in front of the PC. Here we have kids who play WoW, CS, Sc2 or whatever for almost the same amount of hours for nothing or little money in return.
Probably to escape the real world, i don't know.
Well they hope to go pro, but salaries are even worse outside of korea.
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You know, reading this article really makes you appreciate being in America, or even some european countries. I know that the EG guys aren't allowed to talk specifics about their contract, but at least one of them has mentioned that he is a "full-time nerd" and that gaming is his only profession. He is able to make a living and sustain himself just through the contract and sponsorships and then the prize money that comes along with being a starcraft player for team EG. The fact that all these 'foreigner' countries are filled with progamers that are considered to have zero legitimate chance of being a high level A team player in korea can make salaries that many A teamers can't make just makes you really appreciate and be thankful for what we have in the US and some EU countries. In america, e-sports is hardly on the mainstream map. Unless you are a gamer yourself you will not follow professional starcraft or counterstrike or quake or any of those games, yet we can see many guys make it as a living.
True respect for how a team like EG, coL, SK, fnatic, MYM, etc. can do for e-sports in creating a team of different gaming teams. The ability to pool together a top counterstrike, starcraft, quake, etc. team and garner sponsorships so that all these players may enjoy success is truly incredible
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On May 20 2010 16:11 ZlaSHeR wrote:
Unless you are a gamer yourself you will not follow professional starcraft or counterstrike or quake or any of those games, yet we can see many guys make it as a living.
More like they make pocket-money and can be happy if they survive the next 5 years with it.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 20 2010 16:11 ZlaSHeR wrote:
You know, reading this article really makes you appreciate being in America, or even some european countries. I know that the EG guys aren't allowed to talk specifics about their contract, but at least one of them has mentioned that he is a "full-time nerd" and that gaming is his only profession. He is able to make a living and sustain himself just through the contract and sponsorships and then the prize money that comes along with being a starcraft player for team EG. The fact that all these 'foreigner' countries are filled with progamers that are considered to have zero legitimate chance of being a high level A team player in korea can make salaries that many A teamers can't make just makes you really appreciate and be thankful for what we have in the US and some EU countries. In america, e-sports is hardly on the mainstream map. Unless you are a gamer yourself you will not follow professional starcraft or counterstrike or quake or any of those games, yet we can see many guys make it as a living.
True respect for how a team like EG, coL, SK, fnatic, MYM, etc. can do for e-sports in creating a team of different gaming teams. The ability to pool together a top counterstrike, starcraft, quake, etc. team and garner sponsorships so that all these players may enjoy success is truly incredible
Are you sure they get paid? I doubt they get paid anything close to a significant amount of money.
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On May 20 2010 17:04 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 16:11 ZlaSHeR wrote:
You know, reading this article really makes you appreciate being in America, or even some european countries. I know that the EG guys aren't allowed to talk specifics about their contract, but at least one of them has mentioned that he is a "full-time nerd" and that gaming is his only profession. He is able to make a living and sustain himself just through the contract and sponsorships and then the prize money that comes along with being a starcraft player for team EG. The fact that all these 'foreigner' countries are filled with progamers that are considered to have zero legitimate chance of being a high level A team player in korea can make salaries that many A teamers can't make just makes you really appreciate and be thankful for what we have in the US and some EU countries. In america, e-sports is hardly on the mainstream map. Unless you are a gamer yourself you will not follow professional starcraft or counterstrike or quake or any of those games, yet we can see many guys make it as a living.
True respect for how a team like EG, coL, SK, fnatic, MYM, etc. can do for e-sports in creating a team of different gaming teams. The ability to pool together a top counterstrike, starcraft, quake, etc. team and garner sponsorships so that all these players may enjoy success is truly incredible Are you sure they get paid? I doubt they get paid anything close to a significant amount of money.
Players like Kim Sung Sik (ReMinD), Park June (Lyn) and other war3 players who played for SK, didnt receive their salaries since more than 1 ~ 2 years now. It's a shame!
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I thought the reason they couldn't charge an audience for tickets was because it would technically classify SC as a "spectator sport" or something, and there would be licensing issues with using another corporations product (Starcraft, Blizzard-Activision) to make a profit?
I'm pretty sure a Korean audience would have no problem paying to watch because A) It will reduce the number of games being played (because no one is going to spend $15, 6 days a week) decreasing progamer stress levels and practice hours, and B) It will support their favourite gamers.
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lol, so idra gets paid because he is white. B teams don't get any money and A teams non-stars get miserable wages.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 20 2010 18:27 HobbitGotGame wrote:
I thought the reason they couldn't charge an audience for tickets was because it would technically classify SC as a "spectator sport" or something, and there would be licensing issues with using another corporations product (Starcraft, Blizzard-Activision) to make a profit?
I'm pretty sure a Korean audience would have no problem paying to watch because A) It will reduce the number of games being played (because no one is going to spend $15, 6 days a week) decreasing progamer stress levels and practice hours, and B) It will support their favourite gamers.
They don't charge for tickets because they found out that esports became a lot more popular once they didn't charge for tickets. There was an event in the early days of Starcraft. The organizers decided to not charge for admission and 100k people showed up to the esports event, while only 17K people went to the local baseball game. Free admission was the trick that made esports popular. Since then they have not charged for tickets to esports events.
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If they don't charge tickets i wonder where they get revenue from. Maybe thats the reason players get paid miserable. I mean 200 for a very top professional in his field is miserable, a manager in large firm could get more.
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On May 20 2010 19:22 Baddieko wrote:
If they don't charge tickets i wonder where they get revenue from. Maybe thats the reason players get paid miserable. I mean 200 for a very top professional in his field is miserable, a manager in large firm could get more.
see how the players look like race car drivers with all those brand names stitched and printed on their uniforms? that's where/
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Really good article. It says out loud alot of things we already knew through the grapevine but don't (want to) think about when we watch the games.
I really hope the top players can band together and can negotiate some better conditions with the teams but honestly I don't see it happening if the government doesn't step in. The government has to force the teams to comply with the labour rules or ALL progamers have to go on a strike. Only two ways I see a change happening.
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EPT
