• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:02
CEST 13:02
KST 20:02
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting9[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET6Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO85.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)80Weekly Cups (Sept 29-Oct 5): MaxPax triples up3PartinG joins SteamerZone, returns to SC2 competition32
StarCraft 2
General
Revisiting the game after10 years and wow it's bad The New Patch Killed Mech! Stellar Fest: StarCraft II returns to Canada herO Talks: Poor Performance at EWC and more... TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 $1,200 WardiTV October (Oct 21st-31st) WardiTV Mondays RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales!
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers Mutation # 492 Get Out More
Brood War
General
BW caster Sayle BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET BW General Discussion Question regarding recent ASL Bisu vs Larva game [Interview] Grrrr... 2024
Tourneys
[ASL20] Semifinal B SC4ALL $1,500 Open Bracket LAN [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Semifinal A
Strategy
Current Meta BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training Relatively freeroll strategies Siegecraft - a new perspective
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640} TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Men's Fashion Thread Sex and weight loss
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Series you have seen recently... Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The Heroism of Pepe the Fro…
Peanutsc
Rocket League: Traits, Abili…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1513 users

[T] The Reality of Progaming - Page 11

Forum Index > BW General
251 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 9 10 11 12 13 Next All
FalseHero
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4 Posts
May 21 2010 05:23 GMT
#201
I'm not too good at wording my ideas but I'll give it a shot...

It almost seems that the amount of money that people earn on average just simply isn't being publisized enough, or the South Korean community just is blissfully ignorant.
The interview and the comments I have been reading on this post suggest that every man and his dog would happily sign up to be a programmer if they had the oppertunity. Almost in the same fashion that in Western Cultures people would become professional sports men/women if they had the talent. (Except that the majority of these fantasys come with the promise of money and respect.)
This sort of popularity causes the employer to do what ever they like in terms of salary, because they know that there will instantly be another face to replace for the same or less price.

But the main difference between this phenomina and professional sporting is that there just isn't enough money/players needed, for that sort of system to work.
You don't need big stadiums to play starcraft, you don't need a full team of 12 players either. It seems that Starcraft has been set up as a much bigger event than it actually is. There just isn't enough money surrounding it AT THE MOMENT for this sort of system to work.

I believe that the better way to go about this sort of event would be to set it up in a way similar to that of... tennis or golf? Single players, practising and working alone with personal sponsors to hone their skills and metagame to win for themselves.

It just seems that instead of trying to build up a solid ground work in which Esports can carefully, fairly and successfully launch, we've tried to just start huge and expect all the little things to fall into place. I just think we've rushed into things with not enough money to support it.

Ahh I'm terrible at wording things and I might try rearticulating this post again but shorter and more precise later, but I just think that they've tried to make gaming into something which it isn't (yet) and the people who are falling into it are suffering because of the idea of stardom.

Obviously for the select few there is a lot money in it, but is it worth the gruelling of what seems like so many young naive lives.
Time and time again, all I ask is for more time.
shieldbreak
Profile Joined February 2010
United States406 Posts
May 21 2010 05:46 GMT
#202
Hearing about the lower ranking players wages, I kinda feel bad for them. Forgive and forget Koreans and start paying up Kespa. Don't be cheap.
Many a sleepless nights were spent doing absolutely nothing.
iFU.pauline
Profile Joined September 2009
France1650 Posts
May 21 2010 10:29 GMT
#203
This is immoral. It's always embarrassing to act in a corrupt way, but taking a look at the system, I mean, sAviOr has no way to feel guilty. I wouldn't for sure.
No coward soul is mine, No trembler in the world's storm-troubled sphere, I see Heaven's glories shine, And Faith shines equal arming me from Fear
Full.tilt
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United Kingdom1709 Posts
May 21 2010 15:31 GMT
#204
Won't be watching any more Kepsa organised SC. Pretty shameful way to treat young teenagers. Yes there are worse things going on in the world, but casual exploitation of minors still shouldn't be accepted. Casts a shadow on everyone involved with it and it's promotion, team managers, casters, fansites.
InFdude
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Bulgaria619 Posts
May 21 2010 15:57 GMT
#205
--- Nuked ---
guitarizt
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1492 Posts
May 21 2010 16:02 GMT
#206
There's not enough money in sc to go around but it doesn't excuse players for fixing games.
“There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.” - Hemingway
Jayme
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States5866 Posts
May 21 2010 16:13 GMT
#207
On May 22 2010 00:57 InFdude wrote:
But without Kespa we'd have what we have in other countries --> nothing .


Er Progaming in Korea was around before Kespa was...
Python is garbage, number 1 advocate of getting rid of it.
shinigami
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Canada423 Posts
May 21 2010 16:21 GMT
#208
Perhaps Blizzard is correct in denying KeSPA's claims and thereby forcing a change into the future of pro-gaming; the scene will explode internationally (no longer limited to Korea) and create better environments for the players.
I was thinking about joining a debate club, but I was talked out of it.
LegendaryZ
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1583 Posts
May 21 2010 16:27 GMT
#209
Right now the major problem with video games is that they simply don't last. The popular video game of the day changes from year to year and the fanbase doesn't always carry over to each game. Pro-gamers are more often than not, not actually "pro-gamers", but "pro-Starcraft players" or "pro-Counterstrike players". Because they are highly specialized and there's no guarantee that their skills will fully carry over into the next games (even if they're of the same genre), you really don't have too many lasting stars in this sport. Since everything about pro-gaming in general from the actual games played to the stars and teams are so temporary, it's nearly impossible to build the type of fanbase and infrastructure that would be required to turn it into a decent life pursuit for people.

For most of these corporations, pro-gaming is not a long-term investment because of its volatile nature and there's relatively little money to be made in it after costs. Do you think massive amounts of people would pay tickets to go watch pro-gaming matches? Do you think there's a huge market for pro-gaming memorabilia? There really isn't. If you look at the Korean pro-gaming scene, which is probably the most established scene in the world at the moment, where do you see the actual profits coming from? The sources of profit are pretty limited. Korean pro-gaming survives right now BECAUSE costs are kept to a minimum as they are.

Also, no matter how you look at it, the gaming community is not a professional culture. It's a culture of youth and it's seen primarily as a source of personal entertainment rather than a meaningful pursuit. This perception needs to change before pro-gaming can really rise to some level of real professionalism and status. Unfortunately, I highly doubt it will happen.

Considering the fact that even an established sport like baseball has minor leaguers really getting crap for their work, how much more can you possibly expect from a sport where even the top level isn't really established?
starofNC
Profile Joined July 2004
United States1340 Posts
May 21 2010 16:54 GMT
#210
Thank you for this article! I'm very interested in some outside perspective on progaming. I hope this incident shines light on gaming in Korea. What my heart tells me is that there will be a small tremor of debate -- mostly negative, about the gamers -- and it will just go on as it always has. For me the saddest and most memorable line of the article was that adults profit from the broken dreams and slavery of the next generation. How sad.

Thanks again.
telfire
Profile Joined May 2010
United States415 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-21 18:31:17
May 21 2010 18:29 GMT
#211
Thanks for the translation.
After reading the comments it seems most people realize this is a completely unfair situation for the gamers, but some of the other attitudes seem to be based in pure naivety. People saying things like KeSPA doesn't make any money off the games, and that the gamers don't provide a service to society are purely ignorant of how this thing actually works.

It's an advertising agency. Those who work for advertising agencies earn some of the highest salaries of anyone traditionally, because the service they provide is recognition and it is invaluable to all businesses. There's a reason companies pay a designer millions to make a simple logo. There's a reason they pay millions to have that logo on a big board on the side of a highway. And there is definitely a reason they've created progaming and continue to fund it. It isn't because they enjoy destroying lives and watching people suffer, it isn't because their CEOs are big fans of StarCraft (at least not purely, I won't say they aren't!), it's because it's worth it to their business to have their name out there. That's why it's called sponsorship. Sponsor. AKA advertiser.

They are making huge bank off of the whole thing, or they wouldn't be doing it at all. They want to keep costs down because they're a business, and the more profit the better, but make NO mistake, they ARE making money, and LOTS of it, and progaming is a model that would most certainly still work if gamers were treated and paid better, although it might not support as many as it does now, especially the "B team" players. But, as usual in history, the businesses will not do the right thing by themselves and their will have to be some sort of outside force if anything is to change.
DarKFoRcE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1215 Posts
May 21 2010 18:57 GMT
#212
Thanks for the translation.

This might actually be one of the reasons why Blizzard wants so many rights in their negotiations with kespa, because they have the power to change something about this. It would be pretty bad publicity if it gets revealed that Blizzard knowingly supports kespa at "supressing" their progamers
Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/PinDarKFoRcE
moopie
Profile Joined July 2009
12605 Posts
May 21 2010 20:40 GMT
#213
On May 21 2010 19:29 paulinepain wrote:
This is immoral. It's always embarrassing to act in a corrupt way, but taking a look at the system, I mean, sAviOr has no way to feel guilty. I wouldn't for sure.

How do you figure that? Savior was getting paid the most of any progamer, this system is unfair (if you wish to call it that) to people on the bottom, since their compensation is very limited.

Again, supply and demand, the people on the bottom aren't good enough for televised appearances yet, and are also easily replaced. They work hard to hopefully make it to the A-teams (where they will get more money). Savior has no way to not feel guilty here, he was one of the most well known, best paid players in the game. He was just greedy.
I'm going to sleep, let me get some of that carpet.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
May 22 2010 01:59 GMT
#214
Haven't we had this conversation before? They do it for the love of the game. They're living their fantasy of making a little money while they play a game they enjoy. This is more of a cultural phenomena more than anything else. The teams and sponsors really don't make anything other than publicity. It is a cultural investment they wish to keep.
iFU.pauline
Profile Joined September 2009
France1650 Posts
May 22 2010 04:23 GMT
#215
On May 22 2010 05:40 moopie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 21 2010 19:29 paulinepain wrote:
This is immoral. It's always embarrassing to act in a corrupt way, but taking a look at the system, I mean, sAviOr has no way to feel guilty. I wouldn't for sure.

How do you figure that? Savior was getting paid the most of any progamer, this system is unfair (if you wish to call it that) to people on the bottom, since their compensation is very limited.

Again, supply and demand, the people on the bottom aren't good enough for televised appearances yet, and are also easily replaced. They work hard to hopefully make it to the A-teams (where they will get more money). Savior has no way to not feel guilty here, he was one of the most well known, best paid players in the game. He was just greedy.


It has nothing to do with being most famous and best pay. I said sAviOr i could have said this noob of Luxury as well and if it was a guy that earn nothing it would be the same. The environment shape the behavior, not the opposite. You cannot really blame somebody to be greedy in a greedy environment, it's stupid. The entire system is guilty, not just the one that have been busted, one time. Think about all the things we don't know and that is going on right now, I'm sure you can find corruption at all level if you really look for it, because of money and competition. Nobody is clean.
No coward soul is mine, No trembler in the world's storm-troubled sphere, I see Heaven's glories shine, And Faith shines equal arming me from Fear
mint_julep
Profile Joined October 2009
United States254 Posts
May 22 2010 05:12 GMT
#216
Can't wait to help any boycott.
I hope Plexa's sig is right.
Subwoofermate
Profile Joined May 2010
293 Posts
May 22 2010 05:57 GMT
#217
On May 22 2010 13:23 paulinepain wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2010 05:40 moopie wrote:
On May 21 2010 19:29 paulinepain wrote:
This is immoral. It's always embarrassing to act in a corrupt way, but taking a look at the system, I mean, sAviOr has no way to feel guilty. I wouldn't for sure.

How do you figure that? Savior was getting paid the most of any progamer, this system is unfair (if you wish to call it that) to people on the bottom, since their compensation is very limited.

Again, supply and demand, the people on the bottom aren't good enough for televised appearances yet, and are also easily replaced. They work hard to hopefully make it to the A-teams (where they will get more money). Savior has no way to not feel guilty here, he was one of the most well known, best paid players in the game. He was just greedy.


It has nothing to do with being most famous and best pay. I said sAviOr i could have said this noob of Luxury as well and if it was a guy that earn nothing it would be the same. The environment shape the behavior, not the opposite. You cannot really blame somebody to be greedy in a greedy environment, it's stupid. The entire system is guilty, not just the one that have been busted, one time. Think about all the things we don't know and that is going on right now, I'm sure you can find corruption at all level if you really look for it, because of money and competition. Nobody is clean.


to be honest, it sounds like you're trying to convince yourself that savior did nothing wrong.
iFU.pauline
Profile Joined September 2009
France1650 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-22 08:14:44
May 22 2010 08:14 GMT
#218
On May 22 2010 14:57 Subwoofermate wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2010 13:23 paulinepain wrote:
On May 22 2010 05:40 moopie wrote:
On May 21 2010 19:29 paulinepain wrote:
This is immoral. It's always embarrassing to act in a corrupt way, but taking a look at the system, I mean, sAviOr has no way to feel guilty. I wouldn't for sure.

How do you figure that? Savior was getting paid the most of any progamer, this system is unfair (if you wish to call it that) to people on the bottom, since their compensation is very limited.

Again, supply and demand, the people on the bottom aren't good enough for televised appearances yet, and are also easily replaced. They work hard to hopefully make it to the A-teams (where they will get more money). Savior has no way to not feel guilty here, he was one of the most well known, best paid players in the game. He was just greedy.


It has nothing to do with being most famous and best pay. I said sAviOr i could have said this noob of Luxury as well and if it was a guy that earn nothing it would be the same. The environment shape the behavior, not the opposite. You cannot really blame somebody to be greedy in a greedy environment, it's stupid. The entire system is guilty, not just the one that have been busted, one time. Think about all the things we don't know and that is going on right now, I'm sure you can find corruption at all level if you really look for it, because of money and competition. Nobody is clean.


to be honest, it sounds like you're trying to convince yourself that savior did nothing wrong.


Truly not, I never believed in personal responsibility and guilt. Outdated social values that just lead to nowhere.
No coward soul is mine, No trembler in the world's storm-troubled sphere, I see Heaven's glories shine, And Faith shines equal arming me from Fear
Cyrox
Profile Joined October 2007
Sweden147 Posts
May 22 2010 08:48 GMT
#219
Great read, thanks alot.
eXNewB
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada291 Posts
May 22 2010 14:24 GMT
#220
Big translation
Big thank you

THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THERES NO WAY HE CAN STOP THOSE HYDRAS!
Prev 1 9 10 11 12 13 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10:00
Weekly #110
IndyStarCraft 177
CranKy Ducklings159
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 504
IndyStarCraft 177
Railgan 29
StarCraft: Brood War
Horang2 3328
Larva 943
Hyuk 711
Hyun 594
Barracks 318
Soma 305
PianO 273
Mong 268
Pusan 255
sSak 238
[ Show more ]
Light 190
ZerO 187
Last 165
Stork 143
sorry 99
Backho 92
ggaemo 91
Mini 67
Sacsri 45
Sharp 36
Noble 11
IntoTheRainbow 8
sas.Sziky 5
Sea.KH 3
Dota 2
Pyrionflax198
Fuzer 114
League of Legends
JimRising 265
Counter-Strike
x6flipin351
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor227
Other Games
singsing2030
DeMusliM228
B2W.Neo113
rGuardiaN65
ZerO(Twitch)19
Trikslyr17
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL14397
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 14
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 98
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV1025
League of Legends
• Jankos2190
Upcoming Events
Safe House 2
5h 58m
IPSL
7h 58m
Sziky vs Havi
Artosis vs Klauso
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 4h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 23h
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Online Event
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
Snow vs Soma
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS2
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
EC S1
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.