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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
If you have not seen CJ vs KT do NOT read on. + Show Spoiler + To be more specific, I will concentrate on FlaSh vs Snow and what exactly was going on there, because I do not think most people understood the ingenuity behind this whole game.
Let me make one thing clear from the start - CJ's coaching team is probably one of the best teams when it comes to prepare their players for specific matches. Hadn't Snow actually won the game, a lot of people would be left with a "why the fuck did the coaches send out Snow anyway?"
Here's the why: Snow prepared entirely for this matchup. He's a great PvT sniper too. There was no doubt about WHO KT would send, should it get to Ace. Snow was NOT playing any other matchups that day, means it was impossible for him to lose a matchup he was probably prepared for, which could have obviously harmed his mindset.
And to beat Flash, you NEED your mind set completely straight on this one target.
Now lets move on to the actual game. Snow opens with a 2nd pyl before cy-core and gets 2 Zealots first. Notice how Snow scouts completely in the wrong direction and finds Flash on the last possible turn and still manages to deny Flash's CC easilsy.
What does this tell you? Snow getting lucky with his BO? Nope. It tells you he KNEW what build Flash was going to use and that he practiced this over and over and over. He KNEW his timings.
Remember the article where Kang Min shared some thoughts about how to beat FlaSh? CJ's coaches listened very close to Kang Min's words as it seems to me.
Because this little tweak in the opening was already the start. It was a little bit of mindgaming included there for sure, because obviously this sets him a little bit behind if Flash had NOT actually gone for CC -> fact. But as written above, he KNEW Flash would do this on FS.
Then the 2nd part, taking the 6 o'clock expo FIRST - why? Yes, yes, so Flash can not see it. BUT also the lack of an expansion at this certain timing led Flash to take clues in the exact opposite direction. (Again, notice how wonderfully everything worked out in Snow's plan here, SCV spots no natural but gets killed before entering Snow's actual mainbase.)
The fact that Flash did NOT see anything, no expo, no clues of tech, nothing that could make him believe there is an expansion made Flash conclude he will be cheesed. DT drop, Reavers, even possibly bulldog. Flash played VERY safe. Super safe. It was the right decision usually.
But what you see sometimes is not what you get. And that made this game so brilliant imo.
Because unlike what it must've seemed to Flash, Snow was playing macro, macro, macro. Another setback, after already delaying Flash's expo for ages. Flash got the ebay even before the 2nd fact and spammed turrets BEFORE even taking the natural.
Game proceeds into macro macro after some fake into turn back push from Flash, Snow again taking a seemingly weird expo with 9 o'clock - but if you think twice it already closes one harass path that Flash could have gone with his vultures, he only could take the big choke down @ 7 o clock main this point of time. Obviously there was a lot of goons in between tho. Another nice part about this expo is - the longer the game drags on the harder this expansion will become to defend. So in fact if you mine it out as fast as possible, you just end up having one critical spot less to defend in the lategame, which Flash excel's at.
Then the game mostly revolved about Flash's 11 o'clock natural - and the fact that Snow "took" the main there - but not to mine there, simply to delay Flash. He never made a probe there! But he managed to get some DT's out and kept Flash busy, kept him wasting a lot of scans. THIS was also a very critical move. Even better was the fact that he recalled the 11 o clock to clean up small chunks of Flashes force that he previously drew there with his DT's - again - perfect planning. It was simply sweet how the shuttle flew in to reinforce the psidrop and get some nice (and unexpected!) storms off on Flash's (too little) reinforcements.
Then the "carrier switch". This was beautiful. Remember what Ra said? It's the same idea, just executed a little different. Snow never made carriers before he actually had decent upgrades for them (+2 attack, 3-1 upgrading) unlike stupidly rushing for them.
Notice how Flash IMMEDIATELY after finally having some scans again spots the carrier tech. Keep in mind, Flash saw 3 flashing Stargates, 2 Cores and he had NO IDEA how many Carriers Snow actually had, because he was busy wasting scans @ 11 o'clock battleground before. This is why Flash massed a SHITLOAD of goliaths. And this is exactly what Snow wanted him to do, having only 3 Carriers (+3 making - or arbiters, cannot be said for sure), rest ground force only. Exactly as Ra said! Use carriers to simply weaken the ground forces Flash pull out. Flash was desperate, he was behind economically and was aware of the Carriers. Flash's usual reaction to this counter multiple spots at the same time, and that's exactly what Flash did - or lets say tried to do. (Twice.) But right when he did, Snow already had amassed 4 groups of ground force, simply tearing apart Flash's tank/goliath only force.
Don't you think it's shocking how much knowledge Kang Min still seems to have? Also VERY great work to CJ's coaching staff to put some words of wisdom to use creating such a nice big picture for Snow to execute. Obviously great work by Snow to be able to show exactly what they had prepared for Flash.
On a sidenote: Please do not get this as anything else then what it is - a closer look at a game where the best player in this world got beaten in a perfectly prepared straight up game. I'm aware that this is NOT the start of a slump or anything.
I really have to admit that seeing Flash lose does even feel more intense than when Savior did, just because it happens soooo rarely.
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+ Show Spoiler +i agree with all said, but the nexus was delayed a bit by the zealots, and had flash gotten a bunker down earlier im wondering if snow would still have an economic advantage?
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+ Show Spoiler +^interesting read...
but yea, it is pretty evident that snow came to the ace match realllly prepared...
which simply hypes up the effort flash finals..
cant wait to see effort pull an upset here ^^
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Great read 
It's not that surprising that Nal_rA is really smart in this aspect since he does commentate.
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game 1 is worth talking about as well they really pulled out all the stops for the mind games
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9070 Posts
I completely agree with your analysis. Snow displayed incredible preparation. However I do think you are praising nal_ra a bit too much in this case. Theoretically its not rocket science to design a game plan to take a certain player down. I believe defeating Flash is far from impossible, its just that on top of his game, he is able to predict/adapt so damn well. Indeed the game turned out in Snow's best case scenario, but what I found more astonishing was the quality of his execution.
I do not underestemate nal_ra's deep understaning for the game nor the amazing preparation of Snow. What amazed me were Snow's pvt skills and mechanics, I think many protoss players tried to come up with a decent game plan against Flash recently, but failed to materialize their preparation ( I'm looking at you, Kal)
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On May 18 2010 23:46 disciple wrote: I completely agree with your analysis. Snow displayed incredible preparation. However I do think you are praising nal_ra a bit too much in this case. Theoretically its not rocket science to design a game plan to take a certain player down. I believe defeating Flash is far from impossible, its just that on top of his game, he is able to predict/adapt so damn well. Indeed the game turned out in Snow's best case scenario, but what I found more astonishing was the quality of his execution.
I do not underestemate nal_ra's deep understaning for the game nor the amazing preparation of Snow. What amazed me were Snow's pvt skills and mechanics, I think many protoss players tried to come up with a decent game plan against Flash recently, but failed to materialize their preparation ( I'm looking at you, Kal)
i agree to a certain extent tot his. gonna have to rewatch it when it comes out in vods.
happy birthday btw
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Flash wasn't on his game that series. Even the game vs effort was bad
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+ Show Spoiler +Set 5 was an amazing game. I was watching it live and just spent the whole thing being bowled over by how well prepared Snow was. I don't have the best opinion of Snow as a player, but I can't deny that he took an incredibly prepared build and game plan and executed them perfectly.
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It says a lot about Flash when you need a strategy like this to beat him. Ultimately I feel this will make Flash take notice of Snow's PvT. I hope they even practice together.
EDIT: Also, I think further spoiler tags are probably not needed. It does say [Spoilers] in the title after all.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 19 2010 00:18 tarpman wrote: Set 5 was an amazing game. I was watching it live and just spent the whole thing being bowled over by how well prepared Snow was. I don't have the best opinion of Snow as a player, but I can't deny that he took an incredibly prepared build and game plan and executed them perfectly. the signs so far seem to indicate that Snow is an excellent PvT player. In his recent PvTs he's taken down the likes of Leta, Really, Sea, Light, and now Flash. (granted, Leta and Light aren't so good at TvP, but besides Flash and Really there aren't any terrans who are.)
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where is the article from kangmin?
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I always believed Nal_rA had some excellent insight on how to play starcraft. In old boy, he showed some absolutely brilliant tricks like his corsair + dt-ramp-block + 4 zealot expo-hatchery snipe... but obviously he's lacking in the ability of putting them into action. I really hope he gets back into shape soon.
As for the Flash v Snow game... it had to happen sometime. Smart game by Snow, Flash is actually most threatened by Toss IMO because you can't tell if they're going to all-in 1-base cheese, for which you need tech and careful turtling, or 12nex, for which you need to punish the toss. I actually missed the very start of the game, if Snow did deny the scout... IMO maybe Flash should have scouted faster, before the first zealot popped. Or did he? Sorry I don't know...
Lastly, though I was rooting for Flash, its good that Snow didn't go all-in carrier transition. Lately so many protosses have been being raped by complete transitions... they have to realize that such transitions give Flash a huge timing chance to attack.
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United States42470 Posts
I agree on every point. I've been saying it in my OSL writeups and talking about it with Wax a lot, the only way to beat Flash lategame is to macro, macro, macro midgame use arbiters in the early late game and then make the carrier switch for the mid lategame. Flash is too good vs arbiters to lose and if you try it you'll do a Kal and suicide everything and Flash can instantly push out and destroy your economy. Snow's early game was a beautiful counterbuild designed to exploit Flash's rax FE perfectly, forcing Flash to expand after siege mode, a second fact and a turret. The timing was perfect, if that bunker finishes then the scvs maynard and can repair and the nat holds. But the bunker doesn't hold and without it the marines are worthless. The fake cheese with hidden expansion at 6 was a great mindfuck. It was the lategame that he did differently from everyone else though. Pure tried it in game 3 vs Flash but he didn't have the economy to support his carriers properly. We've seen Kal and Movie before him prove that Flash can handle arbiters in a huge disadvantage with his camp and wait style and yet they don't seem to learn. Snow is the first guy to execute what we've all been thinking.
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WHERE CAN we see the game?
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This is the reason why it's so good to have atleast 2 players capable of playing in the Ace match...
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United States42470 Posts
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Damn nal_ra is bm, using the old boy TV show as a guise to exploit Flash's play to Protoss in a legal way.  Unlike Luxury who has probably sold Flash's practice videos and replays, which was illegal.
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On MaY 19 2010 00:57 StylishVODs wrote: This is the ReasoN why it's so good to have atleast 2 players capable of playing in the aCe match...
Yeah was Just about to say myself.
I almost wish KT had a second solid player (not saying fOrGG/Stats/Violet/HoeJJa are terrible or anything but they seem to play seemingly inconsistant at times) to send out for their ACE. The fact that people KNOW Flash is going to come out in the ACE match allows them to prepare these ultimate Flash-slaying builds (Snow's build, as well as the build prepared by fantasy/SKT a few weeks ago).
I suppose KT is just starting to lose its luster a bit as people are exploiting the fact that KT seems to win and lose on the shoulders of Flash as the other 4 can be unreliable at times.
Otherwise, I agree with everything in the OP - great article.
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wow smart stuff from a smart man. "Recommended Games" said Effort vs Flash was the one to watch... now i have to watch this one. Thanks for to long write up, really really enlightening... mind games have some part to play in this game and can contribute in taking down perfected macro machines
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On May 19 2010 01:14 dangots0ul wrote: wow smart stuff from a smart man. "Recommended Games" said Effort vs Flash was the one to watch... now i have to watch this one. Thanks for to long write up, really really enlightening... mind games have some part to play in this game and can contribute in taking down perfected macro machines
I think Snow vs. Flash is a better game. I feel Flash was the one who lost game 1 based on some really bad moves.
+ Show Spoiler +3 marines+scv+bunker lost for 5 lings early game, gave away 4 marines for no reason, half full dropship lost to scourge in base, full dropship lost to lings, 0 damage done, 3-4 lings killed, teched to valks assuming effort was going for mutas, no anti air by late-mid game
Effort played as well as you can vs. mech but then finished the game with ultras vs. mech to finish a game but thats because he already had a huge lead as Day{9} mentions.
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On May 19 2010 00:06 SubtleArt wrote: Flash wasn't on his game that series. Even the game vs effort was bad
Actually it's because Flash played like he always does Snow was able to execute everything so perfectly.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On May 19 2010 01:55 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 00:06 SubtleArt wrote: Flash wasn't on his game that series. Even the game vs effort was bad Actually it's because Flash played like he always does Snow was able to execute everything so perfectly. Couldn't have said that better.
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You know what's super cute? I mean, yeah the 2 zealot was badass, I think a lot caught onto that. But when Flash was scouting Snow's expo, usually you keep 2 goons to prevent SCV from scouting... well Snow showed him the blank natural and kept only 1 goon. That was super cute too. Then when 6 was set up, Snow's lead was pretty large...
It was just a beautiful game. Super high level mind games.
Thx, good read infernal. I like things like these~ Yayaya. BW SO GOOD.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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Which episode of Nal_Ra old boy did Nal_Ra talked about Flash build and counters?
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
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Great read! Good job iNfeRnaL!
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No question about Snow's play, but doesn't Flash's disturbed look and first sloppy marine mean anything?
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Very nice read. And I agree I was astounded when watching the game, not only at the mindgames and the level of preparation, but also the precision that was used against Flash. Because it's one thing to come up with a strategy that can beat Flash, and another thing entirely to pull it off.
Did I mention how nice it was to read that? Very well thought out post, I think.
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I think if you have [spoilers] in the tittle you guys dont have to put everything in spoilers lol
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I agree with everyone ... this was a very nice read and a nicely made build and good execution. Thanks for the read!
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I usually don't like PvT but this game was amazing.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On May 19 2010 04:01 Ideas wrote: I think if you have [spoilers] in the tittle you guys dont have to put everything in spoilers lol If I had done the way you described somebody would have whined about "blabla but it wasn't obvious WHICH match you wanted to spoiler" - and if I did it this way - well, watch your own post?
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My only criticism is it that according to the interview, it seems like Snow did quite a bit in preparing the build, not the coaching staff.
Even better was the fact that he recalled the 5 o clock to clean up small chunks of Flashes force that he previously drew there with his DT's - again - perfect planning. And I think you meant 10 o' clock, unless there's a part of the game I just don't remember. (5 o'clock was Snow's main?)
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KT have had their other players play the ace match numerous times. If they decided to risk playing Stats or Violet or Hoejja, all that preparation would have gone to waste and we would probably be wondering why CJ had Snow for ace.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On May 19 2010 04:35 Saracen wrote:My only criticism is it that according to the interview, it seems like Snow did quite a bit in preparing the build, not the coaching staff. Maybe it wasn't clear enough, but in the end I did in fact congratulate Snow for the perfect execution and sure the player is part of creating the strategy, but the coaches always give them advice. It just seemed too much for one (especially such a young) person to come up with in one week. But you might be right, I don't know.
Show nested quote +Even better was the fact that he recalled the 5 o clock to clean up small chunks of Flashes force that he previously drew there with his DT's - again - perfect planning. And I think you meant 10 o' clock, unless there's a part of the game I just don't remember. (5 o'clock was Snow's main?) You're right, my bad. 
Edit: fixed the 10/11 o'clock typo, was only once tho, I first stated it correctly with 11o'clock and fucked up in the 2nd mention. Thx for pointing it out tho, might've confused some readers.
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Wow what you said just made my heart beat. and i was awing :O Man that is brilliant play.
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The opening was simple and genius at the same time, I never admired a single zealot that much.
That zealot, plus alternative expoing was basically GG right there coz Flash's expo was way too late. Don't forget that this was a rax-CC build, which makes it even more painful since the entire gameplan was relying on getting that expo early. His army power was sacrificed to get the expo earlier and then he ended up with neither of the two.
Props to Snow for not fucking anything up and doing what he did.
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great analysis infernal
i especially like the very early game decision by snow, after his pylon before core, to place the core and pylon in the spot where the eventual stargates would be. that really set up the fake carrier switch since it showed both cores were researching at that time.
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This is what makes me love this game! I haven't actually seen the game yet, but read the analysis anyway. And watching the game afterwards makes me SO excited! ^^ There is SO much thinking around Starcraft. There is not just go in, play game and leave. Strategy is REALLY part of it. I haven't seen any other game where the strategy one is using can be so important. It's so fun to watch ^_^
Great analysis btw!
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I wonder how much Snow prepared for this... remember when Skyhigh sniped Jaedong w/ that special proxy rax cheese build on destination? Didn't he say he practiced 2 weeks straight for that matchup?
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I liked alot how snow executed his carier switch. Just threatening flash with them but not completly switching his whle army for carriers. I would like to mention some other things that is snow do brillantly in his game, how it was clear he completly knew what flash was thinking. The scouting partner is, imo the bigest thing that mindfucked flash. Not only his great decision to expo at 6 threw flash off. But he also opted to expand at 9 instead of the 7 nat in the mid game. You can see flash's vultures arriving at the 7 nat at the exact timing when it should be going up, just to see nothing. Also, while we are on the vulture point. Notice the abnormal lack of vulture harrass by flash. SNow sealed it completly, in the early game with goon position, but in the late game with his whole army position, he was blocking vultures from decending the left lane of the map with a group of goons, and threatening a major break the whole game, so flah had to keep his vultures in position. that is I think, the main point of taking the 11 main. to get gateway here and be able to punish vulture bad position with a major counter, zealots charging into tanks from the hight ground is always good. I might be wrong about things cause i only saw it live and didn't stop to watch the vods.
but yeah, ireally like how you put the points together, snow played a really hudge game, camping into flash head.
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I do not doubt Snow's cleverness in this game, but if Flash continued to turtle to protect his upper left expansions instead of losing his mech army attacking south... Also, even during that attack, it looked like his tanks just didn't seige in time before the Snow's zealots reached them. It just seems to me a cautious Flash still feels unbeatable even with all the mindgames the opponent brings.
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This thread to be featured on the front page, it was a great match, and it was awesome to see someone unseat flash.
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Thanks for the analysis, watch the game and had a blast
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After this game happened, I was kind of dissapointed that Flash wasn't facing a Protoss in either of his finals. You gotta think most Ps are going to study this game in their preparation for The Ultimate Weapon.
Great job, Snow!
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Yeah, it was a really good game by Snow, but please don't weaken your point by claiming Snow did not intend to mine at 10. He built a Nexus therefore he did. There's no upside to making your opponent think you want to mine that expo.
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That was an awesome match and Flash was coming back in if it weren't for some of his mistakes such as the panic siege against those zealots.
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How do you guys feel about game 1 of the match?
+ Show Spoiler +I mean Effort was obviously not prepared as a snipe on Flash, but watching the game, how prepared did you guys think he was? Anything peculiar about his strategies?
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I haven't actually seen the game yet, but I knew the results and I don't mind being spoiled much. The analysis sounds very strong and legitimate. I agree with you when you say
Hadn't Snow actually won the game, a lot of people would be left with a "why the fuck did the coaches send out Snow anyway?" whether Snow played well or not. I'm going to watch the game today.
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Could someone please upload it as a VOD? I can't watch Youtube videos right now for some reason
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totally agree with everything you wrote, especially about CJ coaching staff being f'in awesome. I see similarities between this game and the movie vs flash osl finals game 1, with similar mind games being played to force flash into a defensive style (early robo ebay + turrets while toss double expands). it's just that in Snow's game, I felt like they drew out the gameplan even further, whereas with movie it on HBR it was more like, k our gameplan will leave you with 6 bases vs 3 there's no way u should be able to lose, go run him over... which movie tried to do but failed. Snow's gameplan was more extensive, with detailed strategies designed even for the late late game (ie tech switch, 11olcock nexus).
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On May 19 2010 07:45 m4gdelen4 wrote:How do you guys feel about game 1 of the match? + Show Spoiler +I mean Effort was obviously not prepared as a snipe on Flash, but watching the game, how prepared did you guys think he was? Anything peculiar about his strategies?
+ Show Spoiler +i just really liked how he didn't try to overwhelm flash or take over his territory but was perfectly content to hold a certain piece of ground (near the 6 and the 7) and refuse any more territorial expansion for flash. that plus good dropship defense led to effort having twice as many bases as flash in the late game
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On May 19 2010 06:50 Monsen wrote: Yeah, it was a really good game by Snow, but please don't weaken your point by claiming Snow did not intend to mine at 10. He built a Nexus therefore he did. There's no upside to making your opponent think you want to mine that expo. He made it to delay Flash. Watch the VOD closely, he NEVER made any probes at the top left expo.
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On May 19 2010 00:06 SubtleArt wrote: Flash wasn't on his game that series. Even the game vs effort was bad no, the game vs effort was bad.
the game vs snow was played so well by flash, and THAT is what makes snow's win so good. flash even did his little 'triple attack' at the end and seemed that it would win him the game until you saw that snow had 5 ground armies LOL...
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i love watching cj snipers do their work.
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konadora
Singapore66155 Posts
My exact same thoughts as I watched the game, it was such a beautiful picture to watch being painted.
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I just watched this particular game, and I must say that Snow really had planned and prepared for this game. I still think Flash did excellent job, but he was cought offguard. Both played brilliant, but Snow's early economic lead was just too much. From now on flash will propably scout the whole map early on
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On May 19 2010 09:41 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 06:50 Monsen wrote: Yeah, it was a really good game by Snow, but please don't weaken your point by claiming Snow did not intend to mine at 10. He built a Nexus therefore he did. There's no upside to making your opponent think you want to mine that expo. He made it to delay Flash. Watch the VOD closely, he NEVER made any probes at the top left expo. 
He could have done that by just building his gates there. Exit fanboy mode and engage common sense please
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On May 19 2010 20:11 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 09:41 iNfeRnaL wrote:On May 19 2010 06:50 Monsen wrote: Yeah, it was a really good game by Snow, but please don't weaken your point by claiming Snow did not intend to mine at 10. He built a Nexus therefore he did. There's no upside to making your opponent think you want to mine that expo. He made it to delay Flash. Watch the VOD closely, he NEVER made any probes at the top left expo.  He could have done that by just building his gates there. Exit fanboy mode and engage common sense please 
I think if Snow sensed the opportunity (such as if Flash pushed instead of trying to split the map) he would have made Probes there. It's easy to get your money back and much more even on a base - doesn't take long by long PvT standards. He made a Nexus but wasn't going to waste money on Probes when Flash would kill them instantly with Vultures, so it was just a calculated risk. Making Gateways would mean he wouldn't be able to take advantage of having a Nexus there in case he had the chance to make Probes.
I think what Snow did this game was very similar in spirit to what Movie attempted in the OSL finals on Heartbreak, only that map was a lot smaller, making it easier for Flash to come back. Also Snow played better/Movie played worse. But CJ has clearly been thinking about this "problem" (how to beat Flash).
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I somehow doubt that he invested 400 minerals for the potential of making probes later when it's save to do so (aka when he probably has the game anyway). I find it way more likely that he planned to transfer probes, realized he couldn't because flash was already entrenched in the 9 natural and did not have the multitask to build probes at 10.
Nevertheless it's all speculation and none of us can know for sure. It just felt like blind fanboyism to me and took away a bit of the awesomeness. No offense. Wp Snow.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
What is so hard to understand about "he never made any probes at that expansion"? That has nothing to do with fanboyism or anything, in fact I'm a Kim Taek Yong fan and always will be, no matter how bad he does. But even if I was a Snow fanboy, this would not change the fact that _Snow never made any probes at this nexus_ even tho he had it for 5 minutes. Talk about common sense? Why would you NOT make any probes in this nexus if you have it for 5 minutes except if you only use it as a block?
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while i still hope that flash wins dual league and goes for his own starcraft legacy, im fully prepared to see him win his next title in a year - he IS still young.
in fact i would love him not going the bonjwa way, but being the terran god of war (like julyzerg): beeing dominant till broodwar dies, and taking the golden mouse and whatever comes after slowly after.
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That's kind of my point. The problem is that you automatically assume an intention behind this. I think he just didn't have the multitasking. His macro from the gates at 10 was lacking too, which supports my point to some extent.
While darktreb has a point in his claim that Snow might have made the Nexus for it's potential to be a full mining base should the opportunity arise, you don't. Snow could have blocked Flash just as easily by building his gates in the spot of the Nexus.
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United States6533 Posts
On May 19 2010 20:47 Monsen wrote: That's kind of my point. The problem is that you automatically assume an intention behind this. I think he just didn't have the multitasking. His macro from the gates at 10 was lacking too, which supports my point to some extent.
While darktreb has a point in his claim that Snow might have made the Nexus for it's potential to be a full mining base should the opportunity arise, you don't. Snow could have blocked Flash just as easily by building his gates in the spot of the Nexus. He didn't have the mutlitasking to build probes lol -_-
And how can you say he wasn't macroing well, wtf?????
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Listen, I never stated that it was 100% on intention did I? The posting as a whole was obviously stated on MY opinions and what I saw while watching the game. Maybe I should've written "I do think that he only wants to block, because he is not mining there" and it was the only thing that made (and still does!) sense to me, while you are right that he could have placed a gateway there as well, a Nexus has more HP too + it look like an actual expo (maybe that's what he wanted? I don't know!) I don't think it was particularly too important whether he made probes there or not (he lost the "base" anyway, and to ME it was obvious that he would lose it, so I >assumed< that Snow realized this as well) Maybe it was planned to never mine there, maybe not, ultimately I do not think it matters a lot.
Also I may remember you about the topic title - some THOUGHTS about a PL match - obviously my thoughts. I did not name this "some ultimate truths without any doubts about a PL match" for some reason. Again, it is my opinion and I understood it this way, if not making probes was on purpose or not does not really change that opinion, I however do agree that your point is possible, yet in MY opinion very unlikely. ^^
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Flash being sent out on many proleague matches isn't doing him too great he seems more tense and nervous than usual because he knows he has a bigger game to play. KT might have been better off not sending FlaSh so he can't prepare for OSL like how Effort was rested on todays match against Hwaseung. I mean srsly KT is number 1 on the ranks it doesn't hurt to lose one game without flash.
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On May 19 2010 21:01 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 20:47 Monsen wrote: That's kind of my point. The problem is that you automatically assume an intention behind this. I think he just didn't have the multitasking. His macro from the gates at 10 was lacking too, which supports my point to some extent.
While darktreb has a point in his claim that Snow might have made the Nexus for it's potential to be a full mining base should the opportunity arise, you don't. Snow could have blocked Flash just as easily by building his gates in the spot of the Nexus. He didn't have the mutlitasking to build probes lol -_- And how can you say he wasn't macroing well, wtf?????
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On May 19 2010 20:47 Monsen wrote: That's kind of my point. The problem is that you automatically assume an intention behind this. I think he just didn't have the multitasking. His macro from the gates at 10 was lacking too, which supports my point to some extent.
While darktreb has a point in his claim that Snow might have made the Nexus for it's potential to be a full mining base should the opportunity arise, you don't. Snow could have blocked Flash just as easily by building his gates in the spot of the Nexus.
it's more like a combination of the two (blocking the CC + the potential for becoming a full mining base) that explains why the 11oclock was such a threat. combining those two aspects increases the opportunity cost by a huge margin and forces flash to attack that position faster than it would like. it also allows snow to keep the fight in an uncomfortable, uphill position for flash with lots of scv losses from recalls.
i think to say he didn't have the macro to spam p at a nexus for five minutes is pretty much absurd. you don't build an expansion and then just forget about it, not at this level. no, he intentionally did not make probes, kinda like how he intentionally built arbiters after his fleet beacon, and even if we can't completely pinpoint what that intention was, i think it's safe to say there was an intention. the whole game showed careful thought and preparation, there's no reason to single out this single aspect that actually became a turning point in the late game to be something that happened nonchalantly or accidentally.
edit: seems like a few other posters beat me to the punch regarding your lack of thought. oh well
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Russian Federation327 Posts
Snow is from the same clan as Flash, I wonder do they have practice games before.
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On May 19 2010 21:11 unionbank wrote: Flash being sent out on many proleague matches isn't doing him too great he seems more tense and nervous than usual because he knows he has a bigger game to play. KT might have been better off not sending FlaSh so he can't prepare for OSL like how Effort was rested on todays match against Hwaseung. I mean srsly KT is number 1 on the ranks it doesn't hurt to lose one game without flash.
i think it was really good for kt to send out flash against cj because now he has an idea of what's coming and knows what he needs to practice. really, in both games flash got read like an open book: everything that was trademark flash was anticipated and prepared for. flash knows his rax cc opening, his bunker timing, his scouting tendencies, his dropship manuvering and his "triple attack" are actually points of weakness now since CJ has their players so prepared for it. This means he doesn't need to be surprised or shocked when he finds his opponent, Effort, incredibly prepared for him in their championship match.
i brought this up earlier in the thread but, again, movie was SUPER prepared for flash in games 1 and 2 and though flash won convincingly, one could argue flash got lucky with game 1 and only won that OSL through the psychological advantage he gained from winning that game. movie forced flash to think proxy reaver while he was actually double expanding and building obs, all the while flash was building ebay and turrets super early. Midway into the game, movie was up 2 or 3 bases on flash, and it's only because Movie tried to ram two recalls down Flash's throat that he ended up losing his position and eventually the game. and this is with someone who's not particulary known for his pvt, a testament to CJ's coaching prowess and their ability to dissect an opponent's tendencies and make strategies specifically tailored for that opponent, especially if they have the time.
can't wait for this finals, it's gonna be epic. hopefully flash doesn't try to just "feel" his way but prepares for effort specifically.
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On May 19 2010 21:30 d_so wrote: one could argue flash got lucky with game 1 and only won that OSL through the psychological advantage he gained from winning that game..
Or one could argue that he won because he was clearly the better player and overcame any strategic advantages movie/CJ threw at him.
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On May 19 2010 21:15 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 20:47 Monsen wrote: That's kind of my point. The problem is that you automatically assume an intention behind this. I think he just didn't have the multitasking. His macro from the gates at 10 was lacking too, which supports my point to some extent.
While darktreb has a point in his claim that Snow might have made the Nexus for it's potential to be a full mining base should the opportunity arise, you don't. Snow could have blocked Flash just as easily by building his gates in the spot of the Nexus. it's more like a combination of the two (blocking the CC + the potential for becoming a full mining base) that explains why the 11oclock was such a threat. combining those two aspects increases the opportunity cost by a huge margin and forces flash to attack that position faster than it would like. it also allows snow to keep the fight in an uncomfortable, uphill position for flash with lots of scv losses from recalls. i think to say he didn't have the macro to spam p at a nexus for five minutes is pretty much absurd. you don't build an expansion and then just forget about it, not at this level. no, he intentionally did not make probes, kinda like how he intentionally built arbiters after his fleet beacon, and even if we can't completely pinpoint what that intention was, i think it's safe to say there was an intention. the whole game showed careful thought and preparation, there's no reason to single out this single aspect that actually became a turning point in the late game to be something that happened nonchalantly or accidentally. edit: seems like a few other posters beat me to the punch regarding your lack of thought. oh well
So you're saying him not building probes at 10 "became a turning point in late game". Interesting. So there was a "turning point in late game" as in "Flash was ahead until then". And the reason for that was "not building probes at 10". Gosh I'm really ashamed at my "lack of thought".
Also I really would ask most of you to really identify what others are actually saying, instead of just skipping over posts and venting. It makes you look dumb. Noone ever claimed that Snow "macroed badly". Noone ever claimed that it's "hard to press p on a Nexus". Noone ever claimed that taking 10 wasn't planned or advantageous for Snow.
I'm just talking about the lack of probes. Not building probes does not make 10 "such a threat". Not building probes does not "allows snow to keep the fight in an uncomfortable, uphill position for flash with lots of scv losses from recalls". Not building probes does not "increase the opportunity cost by a huge margin and forces flash to attack that position faster than it would like".
I said that Snows macro from the gates at 10 was "lacking". He certainly did not use them to their full capacity. Which reinforces my original point- While pressing P is a task most of us are capable of, handling the full blown 5+ base multitask in a game versus Flash is not exactly easy. So not F-keybinding your n-th expo and thus not making probes there is certainly a possibility.
@Infernal: I'm fully aware that neither you nor me can (or should) claim infailability in here. None of us can know the exacty reason for the lack of probes- it's all speculative. While Snows game was brilliant without question, I still think that when playing such a demanding game there is room for non-perfection. Maybe I'm wrong and everything Snow did was planned out and perfect. Most posters here certainly seem to think so.
Also I'm sorry in case my remark is turning your thread into something you don't like. I hope discussion is welcome in a "thoughts"-thread.
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On May 19 2010 22:12 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 21:15 d_so wrote:On May 19 2010 20:47 Monsen wrote: That's kind of my point. The problem is that you automatically assume an intention behind this. I think he just didn't have the multitasking. His macro from the gates at 10 was lacking too, which supports my point to some extent.
While darktreb has a point in his claim that Snow might have made the Nexus for it's potential to be a full mining base should the opportunity arise, you don't. Snow could have blocked Flash just as easily by building his gates in the spot of the Nexus. it's more like a combination of the two (blocking the CC + the potential for becoming a full mining base) that explains why the 11oclock was such a threat. combining those two aspects increases the opportunity cost by a huge margin and forces flash to attack that position faster than it would like. it also allows snow to keep the fight in an uncomfortable, uphill position for flash with lots of scv losses from recalls. i think to say he didn't have the macro to spam p at a nexus for five minutes is pretty much absurd. you don't build an expansion and then just forget about it, not at this level. no, he intentionally did not make probes, kinda like how he intentionally built arbiters after his fleet beacon, and even if we can't completely pinpoint what that intention was, i think it's safe to say there was an intention. the whole game showed careful thought and preparation, there's no reason to single out this single aspect that actually became a turning point in the late game to be something that happened nonchalantly or accidentally. edit: seems like a few other posters beat me to the punch regarding your lack of thought. oh well So you're saying him not building probes at 10 "became a turning point in late game". Interesting. So there was a "turning point in late game" as in "Flash was ahead until then". And the reason for that was "not building probes at 10". Gosh I'm really ashamed at my "lack of thought". Also I really would ask most of you to really identify what others are actually saying, instead of just skipping over posts and venting. It makes you look dumb. Noone ever claimed that Snow "macroed badly". Noone ever claimed that it's "hard to press p on a Nexus". Noone ever claimed that taking 10 wasn't planned or advantageous for Snow. I'm just talking about the lack of probes. Not building probes does not make 10 "such a threat". Not building probes does not "allows snow to keep the fight in an uncomfortable, uphill position for flash with lots of scv losses from recalls". Not building probes does not "increase the opportunity cost by a huge margin and forces flash to attack that position faster than it would like". I said that Snows macro from the gates at 10 was "lacking". He certainly did not use them to their full capacity. Which reinforces my original point- While pressing P is a task most of us are capable of, handling the full blown 5+ base multitask in a game versus Flash is not exactly easy. So not F-keybinding your n-th expo and thus not making probes there is certainly a possibility. @Infernal: I'm fully aware that neither you nor me can (or should) claim infailability in here. None of us can know the exacty reason for the lack of probes- it's all speculative. While Snows game was brilliant without question, I still think that when playing such a demanding game there is room for non-perfection. Maybe I'm wrong and everything Snow did was planned out and perfect. Most posters here certainly seem to think so. Also I'm sorry in case my remark is turning your thread into something you don't like. I hope discussion is welcome in a "thoughts"-thread.
lol you're the only one emphasizing the lack of probes. we're talking about the nexus that was built. we're saying that the nexus without probes was intentional. i'm saying that that the nexus's existence raised the opportunity cost of the 11 oclock since it represented an expansion half built while also blocking any CC Flash might build. this forces flash to attack earlier than he would like, committing forces to a location he had assumed would be his own while all snow had to do was keep recalling into the 11 oclock expansion. so stop changing the point of emphasis to suit your needs when everyone else is discussing something else.
and yeah, you're original point about lack of macro leading to no probes being built for five minutes is pretty absurd. nothing you've said really reinforces it.
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On May 19 2010 06:15 polgas wrote: I do not doubt Snow's cleverness in this game, but if Flash continued to turtle to protect his upper left expansions instead of losing his mech army attacking south... Also, even during that attack, it looked like his tanks just didn't seige in time before the Snow's zealots reached them. It just seems to me a cautious Flash still feels unbeatable even with all the mindgames the opponent brings. Flash plays vs carriers by moving out and killing a bunch of bases. He takes advantage of the weak Protoss ground army to kill Protoss's bases and then overwhelm the P with macro. Snow tricked Flash into this mentality by showing carriers which he didn't fully commit to. Flash moves out to attack the bases, as usual, and gets crushed by mass zealots/goons. A tank/goliath army is weaker than a tank/vulture army.
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On May 19 2010 22:26 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 22:12 Monsen wrote:On May 19 2010 21:15 d_so wrote:On May 19 2010 20:47 Monsen wrote: That's kind of my point. The problem is that you automatically assume an intention behind this. I think he just didn't have the multitasking. His macro from the gates at 10 was lacking too, which supports my point to some extent.
While darktreb has a point in his claim that Snow might have made the Nexus for it's potential to be a full mining base should the opportunity arise, you don't. Snow could have blocked Flash just as easily by building his gates in the spot of the Nexus. it's more like a combination of the two (blocking the CC + the potential for becoming a full mining base) that explains why the 11oclock was such a threat. combining those two aspects increases the opportunity cost by a huge margin and forces flash to attack that position faster than it would like. it also allows snow to keep the fight in an uncomfortable, uphill position for flash with lots of scv losses from recalls. i think to say he didn't have the macro to spam p at a nexus for five minutes is pretty much absurd. you don't build an expansion and then just forget about it, not at this level. no, he intentionally did not make probes, kinda like how he intentionally built arbiters after his fleet beacon, and even if we can't completely pinpoint what that intention was, i think it's safe to say there was an intention. the whole game showed careful thought and preparation, there's no reason to single out this single aspect that actually became a turning point in the late game to be something that happened nonchalantly or accidentally. edit: seems like a few other posters beat me to the punch regarding your lack of thought. oh well So you're saying him not building probes at 10 "became a turning point in late game". Interesting. So there was a "turning point in late game" as in "Flash was ahead until then". And the reason for that was "not building probes at 10". Gosh I'm really ashamed at my "lack of thought". Also I really would ask most of you to really identify what others are actually saying, instead of just skipping over posts and venting. It makes you look dumb. Noone ever claimed that Snow "macroed badly". Noone ever claimed that it's "hard to press p on a Nexus". Noone ever claimed that taking 10 wasn't planned or advantageous for Snow. I'm just talking about the lack of probes. Not building probes does not make 10 "such a threat". Not building probes does not "allows snow to keep the fight in an uncomfortable, uphill position for flash with lots of scv losses from recalls". Not building probes does not "increase the opportunity cost by a huge margin and forces flash to attack that position faster than it would like". I said that Snows macro from the gates at 10 was "lacking". He certainly did not use them to their full capacity. Which reinforces my original point- While pressing P is a task most of us are capable of, handling the full blown 5+ base multitask in a game versus Flash is not exactly easy. So not F-keybinding your n-th expo and thus not making probes there is certainly a possibility. @Infernal: I'm fully aware that neither you nor me can (or should) claim infailability in here. None of us can know the exacty reason for the lack of probes- it's all speculative. While Snows game was brilliant without question, I still think that when playing such a demanding game there is room for non-perfection. Maybe I'm wrong and everything Snow did was planned out and perfect. Most posters here certainly seem to think so. Also I'm sorry in case my remark is turning your thread into something you don't like. I hope discussion is welcome in a "thoughts"-thread. lol you're the only one emphasizing the lack of probes. we're talking about the nexus that was built. we're saying that the nexus without probes was intentional. i'm saying that that the nexus's existence raised the opportunity cost of the 11 oclock since it represented an expansion half built while also blocking any CC Flash might build. this forces flash to attack earlier than he would like, committing forces to a location he had assumed would be his own while all snow had to do was keep recalling into the 11 oclock expansion. so stop changing the point of emphasis to suit your needs when everyone else is discussing something else. and yeah, you're original point about lack of macro leading to no probes being built for five minutes is pretty absurd. nothing you've said really reinforces it.
Let me help you out here.
1. In his original post Infernal claimed that, among all the other brilliant moves Snow pulled in this game, not building probes at 10 was just as intentional and brilliant. 2. I disagreed, and basically called it a matter of lacking multitask. This is where we can agree to disagree since there's no way to find out who's right.
Now you come in and a) make several claims *cough*turningpoint*cough* and go on to tell me what I'm talking about in the post of mine that you're replying to. "Everyone is talking about the Nexus"- when my post is the one that started the discussion.
While I certainly reinforced my notion by pointing out a) that Snow could easily have planned to transfer probes, and b) that his multitasking seemed to be at it's very limit (indicated by the weaker macro from his 10 o clock gates) the only thing you have going for your agrument is the "increased opportunity costs". In less poker like terms, the threat of Snow starting to mine in some later stage of the game. The "blocking" is not in favor of your argument at all, since just gates/units would accomplish the same. Weighted against the actual benefits of mining this theory seems rather weak to me.
So let's make things clear here:
Facts: 1. Snow builds a Nexus and several pylons/gates at the 10(11) main. Clearly he claims the base as his, and sets up infrastructure to be able to attack/flank from there. 2. Snow builds no probes there.
Now we have 2 Theories dealing with the issue of "the probeless Nexus".
Theory 1 (as far as I can make out): Snow tries to make Flash think he mines there without actually doing so, in order to force an earlier attack.
Pro: If Flashs takes the bait, he can be thrown off his timing, without Snow risking the expense of vulture raided probes. (I guess that's your point.)
Contra: Cost of Nexus, no benefits from mining.
Theory 2 Snow's multitask is not up to the, haha, task. He might have planned to transfer probes from somewhere else, but couldn't because Flash already had fortified the natural.
Pro:Mining is good. Since he has to defend the base anyway, and is building units there, why not "risk" mining.
Snows macro at the gates in question seems (to me, at least) weak, indicating a player at the limits of his multitasking ability.
Snow is playing Flash, who makes any mortal wet his pants.
Contra: Snow is a Progamer, who makes 99.9% of mortals wet their pants. Progamers don't "forget to build probes".
Sorry, my theory still seems more likely to me.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 19 2010 23:53 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 22:26 d_so wrote:On May 19 2010 22:12 Monsen wrote:On May 19 2010 21:15 d_so wrote:On May 19 2010 20:47 Monsen wrote: That's kind of my point. The problem is that you automatically assume an intention behind this. I think he just didn't have the multitasking. His macro from the gates at 10 was lacking too, which supports my point to some extent.
While darktreb has a point in his claim that Snow might have made the Nexus for it's potential to be a full mining base should the opportunity arise, you don't. Snow could have blocked Flash just as easily by building his gates in the spot of the Nexus. it's more like a combination of the two (blocking the CC + the potential for becoming a full mining base) that explains why the 11oclock was such a threat. combining those two aspects increases the opportunity cost by a huge margin and forces flash to attack that position faster than it would like. it also allows snow to keep the fight in an uncomfortable, uphill position for flash with lots of scv losses from recalls. i think to say he didn't have the macro to spam p at a nexus for five minutes is pretty much absurd. you don't build an expansion and then just forget about it, not at this level. no, he intentionally did not make probes, kinda like how he intentionally built arbiters after his fleet beacon, and even if we can't completely pinpoint what that intention was, i think it's safe to say there was an intention. the whole game showed careful thought and preparation, there's no reason to single out this single aspect that actually became a turning point in the late game to be something that happened nonchalantly or accidentally. edit: seems like a few other posters beat me to the punch regarding your lack of thought. oh well So you're saying him not building probes at 10 "became a turning point in late game". Interesting. So there was a "turning point in late game" as in "Flash was ahead until then". And the reason for that was "not building probes at 10". Gosh I'm really ashamed at my "lack of thought". Also I really would ask most of you to really identify what others are actually saying, instead of just skipping over posts and venting. It makes you look dumb. Noone ever claimed that Snow "macroed badly". Noone ever claimed that it's "hard to press p on a Nexus". Noone ever claimed that taking 10 wasn't planned or advantageous for Snow. I'm just talking about the lack of probes. Not building probes does not make 10 "such a threat". Not building probes does not "allows snow to keep the fight in an uncomfortable, uphill position for flash with lots of scv losses from recalls". Not building probes does not "increase the opportunity cost by a huge margin and forces flash to attack that position faster than it would like". I said that Snows macro from the gates at 10 was "lacking". He certainly did not use them to their full capacity. Which reinforces my original point- While pressing P is a task most of us are capable of, handling the full blown 5+ base multitask in a game versus Flash is not exactly easy. So not F-keybinding your n-th expo and thus not making probes there is certainly a possibility. @Infernal: I'm fully aware that neither you nor me can (or should) claim infailability in here. None of us can know the exacty reason for the lack of probes- it's all speculative. While Snows game was brilliant without question, I still think that when playing such a demanding game there is room for non-perfection. Maybe I'm wrong and everything Snow did was planned out and perfect. Most posters here certainly seem to think so. Also I'm sorry in case my remark is turning your thread into something you don't like. I hope discussion is welcome in a "thoughts"-thread. lol you're the only one emphasizing the lack of probes. we're talking about the nexus that was built. we're saying that the nexus without probes was intentional. i'm saying that that the nexus's existence raised the opportunity cost of the 11 oclock since it represented an expansion half built while also blocking any CC Flash might build. this forces flash to attack earlier than he would like, committing forces to a location he had assumed would be his own while all snow had to do was keep recalling into the 11 oclock expansion. so stop changing the point of emphasis to suit your needs when everyone else is discussing something else. and yeah, you're original point about lack of macro leading to no probes being built for five minutes is pretty absurd. nothing you've said really reinforces it. Let me help you out here. 1. In his original post Infernal claimed that, among all the other brilliant moves Snow pulled in this game, not building probes at 10 was just as intentional and brilliant. 2. I disagreed, and basically called it a matter of lacking multitask. This is where we can agree to disagree since there's no way to find out who's right. Now you come in and a) make several claims *cough*turningpoint*cough* and go on to tell me what I'm talking about in the post of mine that you're replying to. "Everyone is talking about the Nexus"- when my post is the one that started the discussion. While I certainly reinforced my notion by pointing out a) that Snow could easily have planned to transfer probes, and b) that his multitasking seemed to be at it's very limit (indicated by the weaker macro from his 10 o clock gates) the only thing you have going for your agrument is the "increased opportunity costs". In less poker like terms, the threat of Snow starting to mine in some later stage of the game. The "blocking" is not in favor of your argument at all, since just gates/units would accomplish the same. Weighted against the actual benefits of mining this theory seems rather weak to me. So let's make things clear here: Facts: 1. Snow builds a Nexus and several pylons/gates at the 10(11) main. Clearly he claims the base as his, and sets up infrastructure to be able to attack/flank from there. 2. Snow builds no probes there. Now we have 2 Theories dealing with the issue of "the probeless Nexus". Theory 1 (as far as I can make out): Snow tries to make Flash think he mines there without actually doing so, in order to force an earlier attack. Pro: If Flashs takes the bait, he can be thrown off his timing, without Snow risking the expense of vulture raided probes. (I guess that's your point.) Contra: Cost of Nexus, no benefits from mining. Theory 2 Snow's multitask is not up to the, haha, task. He might have planned to transfer probes from somewhere else, but couldn't because Flash already had fortified the natural. Pro:Mining is good. Since he has to defend the base anyway, and is building units there, why not "risk" mining. Snows macro at the gates in question seems (to me, at least) weak, indicating a player at the limits of his multitasking ability. Snow is playing Flash, who makes any mortal wet his pants. Contra: Snow is a Progamer, who makes 99.9% of mortals wet their pants. Progamers don't "forget to build probes". Sorry, my theory still seems more likely to me. In my opinion, one of the most important factors here is the order in which Snow built his buildings at 11. Snow first made pylon, then a cannon and a gateway. Only after those he built nexus and more cannons/gateways, To me, this clearly indicates that Snow wanted to delay Flash with the units and buildings being there as long as possible. Just like Infernal said this also forced Flash to waste scans on DTs, which fits very well into Snow plan.
If Snow's plan to make some profit off that 11 o'clock base, he most probably would have first build the nexus (possibly pylon before) then make cannons and gateways. That way he could've make probes much earlier to get some resources.
Snow's multitask is not up to the, haha, task. He might have planned to transfer probes from somewhere else, but couldn't because Flash already had fortified the natural. This is simply impossible. That whole game was planned for Flash and it was able to work because of the fact that Flash played as he usually does. Snow knew in which pattern Flash would take his expos and he also knew that transfering probes at 11 o'clock would be impossible. Did you see the timing when Snow made the pylon there? In VOD it was 12:10, Snow's observers and units were able to see that Flash was indeed turtling and that the most likely expo that Flash would take next is 10 o'clock natural. Flash already had tanks, vultures and turret to protect that location. (and thus making probe transfer impossible)
Snow is playing Flash, who makes any mortal wet his pants.
Are you saying that the reason to probes' lack of existance was that Snow was scared to play against Flash? Snow practised only to snipe Flash and he was was as prepared, both mentally and strategically, as you can be to take out the best player in the world in ace match. 11 o'clock's one and only purpose was to delay Flash. Minerals and gas' aren't the only resources in starcraft, time is also very important. Snow not building probes there wasn't arbitrary thing, it was part of his plan, just like the rest of that game.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I'm actually astonished at just how hard players have to work to get a game off of Flash.
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On May 19 2010 23:01 vnlegend wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 06:15 polgas wrote: I do not doubt Snow's cleverness in this game, but if Flash continued to turtle to protect his upper left expansions instead of losing his mech army attacking south... Also, even during that attack, it looked like his tanks just didn't seige in time before the Snow's zealots reached them. It just seems to me a cautious Flash still feels unbeatable even with all the mindgames the opponent brings. Flash plays vs carriers by moving out and killing a bunch of bases. He takes advantage of the weak Protoss ground army to kill Protoss's bases and then overwhelm the P with macro. Snow tricked Flash into this mentality by showing carriers which he didn't fully commit to. Flash moves out to attack the bases, as usual, and gets crushed by mass zealots/goons. A tank/goliath army is weaker than a tank/vulture army.
This man spoke my mind haha. Yea, I was watching the vid, and flash finds Snow going carriers. Almost instantly, he starts making rounds of goliathes, and moments later, he pushes out with a large goliath/tank army, probably expecting to crush a measly ground force. But snow basically streams huge rounds of zealots and dragoons, and finishes off Flash's army with a huge wave of zealots that Goliaths and Tanks are extremely weak against. Right then and there, Flash lost the game.
Brilliant idea by Snow, but Flash's previous games probably shook his mentality; Pure went carriers 2 out of 3 (maybe even 3/3) games, and he had just lost to effort. Once he saw all the carrier tech, he probably felt very comfortable and mechanically fell into his anti-carrier strategy, not expecting Snow to trick him and mass zealots.
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On May 20 2010 01:41 Plexa wrote: I'm actually astonished at just how hard players have to work to get a game off of Flash. agreed.
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On May 19 2010 23:01 vnlegend wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 06:15 polgas wrote: I do not doubt Snow's cleverness in this game, but if Flash continued to turtle to protect his upper left expansions instead of losing his mech army attacking south... Also, even during that attack, it looked like his tanks just didn't seige in time before the Snow's zealots reached them. It just seems to me a cautious Flash still feels unbeatable even with all the mindgames the opponent brings. Flash plays vs carriers by moving out and killing a bunch of bases. He takes advantage of the weak Protoss ground army to kill Protoss's bases and then overwhelm the P with macro. Snow tricked Flash into this mentality by showing carriers which he didn't fully commit to. Flash moves out to attack the bases, as usual, and gets crushed by mass zealots/goons. A tank/goliath army is weaker than a tank/vulture army.
True, like infernal analyzed. Coupled with Flash's detection deficiency, the ambush worked great. These recent games though I think will lead to one dreaded conclusion... Flash will play super turtle in the finals.
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Excellent post & read. I wince when I think about that game :/
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On May 19 2010 23:53 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 22:26 d_so wrote:On May 19 2010 22:12 Monsen wrote:On May 19 2010 21:15 d_so wrote:On May 19 2010 20:47 Monsen wrote: That's kind of my point. The problem is that you automatically assume an intention behind this. I think he just didn't have the multitasking. His macro from the gates at 10 was lacking too, which supports my point to some extent.
While darktreb has a point in his claim that Snow might have made the Nexus for it's potential to be a full mining base should the opportunity arise, you don't. Snow could have blocked Flash just as easily by building his gates in the spot of the Nexus. it's more like a combination of the two (blocking the CC + the potential for becoming a full mining base) that explains why the 11oclock was such a threat. combining those two aspects increases the opportunity cost by a huge margin and forces flash to attack that position faster than it would like. it also allows snow to keep the fight in an uncomfortable, uphill position for flash with lots of scv losses from recalls. i think to say he didn't have the macro to spam p at a nexus for five minutes is pretty much absurd. you don't build an expansion and then just forget about it, not at this level. no, he intentionally did not make probes, kinda like how he intentionally built arbiters after his fleet beacon, and even if we can't completely pinpoint what that intention was, i think it's safe to say there was an intention. the whole game showed careful thought and preparation, there's no reason to single out this single aspect that actually became a turning point in the late game to be something that happened nonchalantly or accidentally. edit: seems like a few other posters beat me to the punch regarding your lack of thought. oh well So you're saying him not building probes at 10 "became a turning point in late game". Interesting. So there was a "turning point in late game" as in "Flash was ahead until then". And the reason for that was "not building probes at 10". Gosh I'm really ashamed at my "lack of thought". Also I really would ask most of you to really identify what others are actually saying, instead of just skipping over posts and venting. It makes you look dumb. Noone ever claimed that Snow "macroed badly". Noone ever claimed that it's "hard to press p on a Nexus". Noone ever claimed that taking 10 wasn't planned or advantageous for Snow. I'm just talking about the lack of probes. Not building probes does not make 10 "such a threat". Not building probes does not "allows snow to keep the fight in an uncomfortable, uphill position for flash with lots of scv losses from recalls". Not building probes does not "increase the opportunity cost by a huge margin and forces flash to attack that position faster than it would like". I said that Snows macro from the gates at 10 was "lacking". He certainly did not use them to their full capacity. Which reinforces my original point- While pressing P is a task most of us are capable of, handling the full blown 5+ base multitask in a game versus Flash is not exactly easy. So not F-keybinding your n-th expo and thus not making probes there is certainly a possibility. @Infernal: I'm fully aware that neither you nor me can (or should) claim infailability in here. None of us can know the exacty reason for the lack of probes- it's all speculative. While Snows game was brilliant without question, I still think that when playing such a demanding game there is room for non-perfection. Maybe I'm wrong and everything Snow did was planned out and perfect. Most posters here certainly seem to think so. Also I'm sorry in case my remark is turning your thread into something you don't like. I hope discussion is welcome in a "thoughts"-thread. lol you're the only one emphasizing the lack of probes. we're talking about the nexus that was built. we're saying that the nexus without probes was intentional. i'm saying that that the nexus's existence raised the opportunity cost of the 11 oclock since it represented an expansion half built while also blocking any CC Flash might build. this forces flash to attack earlier than he would like, committing forces to a location he had assumed would be his own while all snow had to do was keep recalling into the 11 oclock expansion. so stop changing the point of emphasis to suit your needs when everyone else is discussing something else. and yeah, you're original point about lack of macro leading to no probes being built for five minutes is pretty absurd. nothing you've said really reinforces it. Let me help you out here. 1. In his original post Infernal claimed that, among all the other brilliant moves Snow pulled in this game, not building probes at 10 was just as intentional and brilliant. 2. I disagreed, and basically called it a matter of lacking multitask. This is where we can agree to disagree since there's no way to find out who's right. Now you come in and a) make several claims *cough*turningpoint*cough* and go on to tell me what I'm talking about in the post of mine that you're replying to. "Everyone is talking about the Nexus"- when my post is the one that started the discussion. While I certainly reinforced my notion by pointing out a) that Snow could easily have planned to transfer probes, and b) that his multitasking seemed to be at it's very limit (indicated by the weaker macro from his 10 o clock gates) the only thing you have going for your agrument is the "increased opportunity costs". In less poker like terms, the threat of Snow starting to mine in some later stage of the game. The "blocking" is not in favor of your argument at all, since just gates/units would accomplish the same. Weighted against the actual benefits of mining this theory seems rather weak to me. So let's make things clear here: Facts: 1. Snow builds a Nexus and several pylons/gates at the 10(11) main. Clearly he claims the base as his, and sets up infrastructure to be able to attack/flank from there. 2. Snow builds no probes there. Now we have 2 Theories dealing with the issue of "the probeless Nexus". Theory 1 (as far as I can make out): Snow tries to make Flash think he mines there without actually doing so, in order to force an earlier attack. Pro: If Flashs takes the bait, he can be thrown off his timing, without Snow risking the expense of vulture raided probes. (I guess that's your point.) Contra: Cost of Nexus, no benefits from mining. Theory 2 Snow's multitask is not up to the, haha, task. He might have planned to transfer probes from somewhere else, but couldn't because Flash already had fortified the natural. Pro:Mining is good. Since he has to defend the base anyway, and is building units there, why not "risk" mining. Snows macro at the gates in question seems (to me, at least) weak, indicating a player at the limits of his multitasking ability. Snow is playing Flash, who makes any mortal wet his pants. Contra: Snow is a Progamer, who makes 99.9% of mortals wet their pants. Progamers don't "forget to build probes". Sorry, my theory still seems more likely to me.
it seems like you're getting some sort of hardon over the word "turning point", as if i misused the term. i actually did not:
as you can see, you are imposing a strict limitation to the term that appears nowhere in the definition. a turning does not necessarily mean the point at which one side goes from winning to losing. i don't understand why you are inferring my point to mean as such or why you are extrapolating so much confidence from such an inference, but you're wrong. sorry.
i wish i could help you with the rest of your flawed reasoning but i feel you are too strongly ensconced with your own point of view. if you truly cannot see that 1.) the opportunity cost of the nexus, including the blocking of flash's cc as well as the impetus it represents for flash to attack, is more than worth the price of 400 minerals late game, 2.) that the risk of the 11 oclock position is too high to be worth the making of probes since it's behind flash's tank lines and right next to an expansion of flash... then maybe it's better to hold onto your one-winged theory about lack of macro. at least you can "reinforce" it with your extensive knowledge about nervousness, feelings, and the limitations of a human's multi-tasking capabilities
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Nice try, let's just leave it at that.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On May 20 2010 01:41 Plexa wrote: I'm actually astonished at just how hard players have to work to get a game off of Flash. That's one of the reasons, why I wrote this.
Edit: I also wrote something else but it got lost because of some Beta. Now don't tell me before the semis woulda been a terrible timing to release it, again?  Fucker! <3
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Fantastic game!
Kang Min is amazing. We need more Kang Min.
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