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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On May 19 2010 06:50 Monsen wrote:
Yeah, it was a really good game by Snow, but please don't weaken your point by claiming Snow did not intend to mine at 10. He built a Nexus therefore he did. There's no upside to making your opponent think you want to mine that expo.
He made it to delay Flash.
Watch the VOD closely, he NEVER made any probes at the top left expo. 
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On May 19 2010 00:06 SubtleArt wrote:
Flash wasn't on his game that series. Even the game vs effort was bad
no, the game vs effort was bad.
the game vs snow was played so well by flash, and THAT is what makes snow's win so good. flash even did his little 'triple attack' at the end and seemed that it would win him the game until you saw that snow had 5 ground armies LOL...
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i love watching cj snipers do their work.
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konadora
Singapore66071 Posts
My exact same thoughts as I watched the game, it was such a beautiful picture to watch being painted.
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I just watched this particular game, and I must say that Snow really had planned and prepared for this game. I still think Flash did excellent job, but he was cought offguard. Both played brilliant, but Snow's early economic lead was just too much. From now on flash will propably scout the whole map early on
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On May 19 2010 09:41 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 06:50 Monsen wrote:
Yeah, it was a really good game by Snow, but please don't weaken your point by claiming Snow did not intend to mine at 10. He built a Nexus therefore he did. There's no upside to making your opponent think you want to mine that expo. He made it to delay Flash. Watch the VOD closely, he NEVER made any probes at the top left expo.
He could have done that by just building his gates there. Exit fanboy mode and engage common sense please 
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On May 19 2010 20:11 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 09:41 iNfeRnaL wrote:On May 19 2010 06:50 Monsen wrote:
Yeah, it was a really good game by Snow, but please don't weaken your point by claiming Snow did not intend to mine at 10. He built a Nexus therefore he did. There's no upside to making your opponent think you want to mine that expo. He made it to delay Flash. Watch the VOD closely, he NEVER made any probes at the top left expo. He could have done that by just building his gates there. Exit fanboy mode and engage common sense please
I think if Snow sensed the opportunity (such as if Flash pushed instead of trying to split the map) he would have made Probes there. It's easy to get your money back and much more even on a base - doesn't take long by long PvT standards. He made a Nexus but wasn't going to waste money on Probes when Flash would kill them instantly with Vultures, so it was just a calculated risk. Making Gateways would mean he wouldn't be able to take advantage of having a Nexus there in case he had the chance to make Probes.
I think what Snow did this game was very similar in spirit to what Movie attempted in the OSL finals on Heartbreak, only that map was a lot smaller, making it easier for Flash to come back. Also Snow played better/Movie played worse. But CJ has clearly been thinking about this "problem" (how to beat Flash).
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I somehow doubt that he invested 400 minerals for the potential of making probes later when it's save to do so (aka when he probably has the game anyway).
I find it way more likely that he planned to transfer probes, realized he couldn't because flash was already entrenched in the 9 natural and did not have the multitask to build probes at 10.
Nevertheless it's all speculation and none of us can know for sure. It just felt like blind fanboyism to me and took away a bit of the awesomeness. No offense. Wp Snow.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
What is so hard to understand about "he never made any probes at that expansion"?
That has nothing to do with fanboyism or anything, in fact I'm a Kim Taek Yong fan and always will be, no matter how bad he does.
But even if I was a Snow fanboy, this would not change the fact that _Snow never made any probes at this nexus_ even tho he had it for 5 minutes.
Talk about common sense?
Why would you NOT make any probes in this nexus if you have it for 5 minutes except if you only use it as a block?
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while i still hope that flash wins dual league and goes for his own starcraft legacy, im fully prepared to see him win his next title in a year - he IS still young.
in fact i would love him not going the bonjwa way, but being the terran god of war (like julyzerg): beeing dominant till broodwar dies, and taking the golden mouse and whatever comes after slowly after.
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That's kind of my point. The problem is that you automatically assume an intention behind this. I think he just didn't have the multitasking. His macro from the gates at 10 was lacking too, which supports my point to some extent.
While darktreb has a point in his claim that Snow might have made the Nexus for it's potential to be a full mining base should the opportunity arise, you don't.
Snow could have blocked Flash just as easily by building his gates in the spot of the Nexus.
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On May 19 2010 20:47 Monsen wrote:
That's kind of my point. The problem is that you automatically assume an intention behind this. I think he just didn't have the multitasking. His macro from the gates at 10 was lacking too, which supports my point to some extent.
While darktreb has a point in his claim that Snow might have made the Nexus for it's potential to be a full mining base should the opportunity arise, you don't.
Snow could have blocked Flash just as easily by building his gates in the spot of the Nexus.
He didn't have the mutlitasking to build probes lol -_-
And how can you say he wasn't macroing well, wtf?????
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Listen, I never stated that it was 100% on intention did I?
The posting as a whole was obviously stated on MY opinions and what I saw while watching the game. Maybe I should've written "I do think that he only wants to block, because he is not mining there" and it was the only thing that made (and still does!) sense to me, while you are right that he could have placed a gateway there as well, a Nexus has more HP too + it look like an actual expo (maybe that's what he wanted? I don't know!) I don't think it was particularly too important whether he made probes there or not (he lost the "base" anyway, and to ME it was obvious that he would lose it, so I >assumed< that Snow realized this as well)
Maybe it was planned to never mine there, maybe not, ultimately I do not think it matters a lot.
Also I may remember you about the topic title - some THOUGHTS about a PL match - obviously my thoughts. I did not name this "some ultimate truths without any doubts about a PL match" for some reason.
Again, it is my opinion and I understood it this way, if not making probes was on purpose or not does not really change that opinion, I however do agree that your point is possible, yet in MY opinion very unlikely. ^^
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Flash being sent out on many proleague matches isn't doing him too great he seems more tense and nervous than usual because he knows he has a bigger game to play. KT might have been better off not sending FlaSh so he can't prepare for OSL like how Effort was rested on todays match against Hwaseung. I mean srsly KT is number 1 on the ranks it doesn't hurt to lose one game without flash.
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On May 19 2010 21:01 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 20:47 Monsen wrote:
That's kind of my point. The problem is that you automatically assume an intention behind this. I think he just didn't have the multitasking. His macro from the gates at 10 was lacking too, which supports my point to some extent.
While darktreb has a point in his claim that Snow might have made the Nexus for it's potential to be a full mining base should the opportunity arise, you don't.
Snow could have blocked Flash just as easily by building his gates in the spot of the Nexus. He didn't have the mutlitasking to build probes lol -_- And how can you say he wasn't macroing well, wtf?????
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On May 19 2010 20:47 Monsen wrote:
That's kind of my point. The problem is that you automatically assume an intention behind this. I think he just didn't have the multitasking. His macro from the gates at 10 was lacking too, which supports my point to some extent.
While darktreb has a point in his claim that Snow might have made the Nexus for it's potential to be a full mining base should the opportunity arise, you don't.
Snow could have blocked Flash just as easily by building his gates in the spot of the Nexus.
it's more like a combination of the two (blocking the CC + the potential for becoming a full mining base) that explains why the 11oclock was such a threat. combining those two aspects increases the opportunity cost by a huge margin and forces flash to attack that position faster than it would like. it also allows snow to keep the fight in an uncomfortable, uphill position for flash with lots of scv losses from recalls.
i think to say he didn't have the macro to spam p at a nexus for five minutes is pretty much absurd. you don't build an expansion and then just forget about it, not at this level. no, he intentionally did not make probes, kinda like how he intentionally built arbiters after his fleet beacon, and even if we can't completely pinpoint what that intention was, i think it's safe to say there was an intention. the whole game showed careful thought and preparation, there's no reason to single out this single aspect that actually became a turning point in the late game to be something that happened nonchalantly or accidentally.
edit: seems like a few other posters beat me to the punch regarding your lack of thought. oh well
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Russian Federation327 Posts
Snow is from the same clan as Flash, I wonder do they have practice games before.
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On May 19 2010 21:11 unionbank wrote:
Flash being sent out on many proleague matches isn't doing him too great he seems more tense and nervous than usual because he knows he has a bigger game to play. KT might have been better off not sending FlaSh so he can't prepare for OSL like how Effort was rested on todays match against Hwaseung. I mean srsly KT is number 1 on the ranks it doesn't hurt to lose one game without flash.
i think it was really good for kt to send out flash against cj because now he has an idea of what's coming and knows what he needs to practice. really, in both games flash got read like an open book: everything that was trademark flash was anticipated and prepared for. flash knows his rax cc opening, his bunker timing, his scouting tendencies, his dropship manuvering and his "triple attack" are actually points of weakness now since CJ has their players so prepared for it. This means he doesn't need to be surprised or shocked when he finds his opponent, Effort, incredibly prepared for him in their championship match.
i brought this up earlier in the thread but, again, movie was SUPER prepared for flash in games 1 and 2 and though flash won convincingly, one could argue flash got lucky with game 1 and only won that OSL through the psychological advantage he gained from winning that game. movie forced flash to think proxy reaver while he was actually double expanding and building obs, all the while flash was building ebay and turrets super early. Midway into the game, movie was up 2 or 3 bases on flash, and it's only because Movie tried to ram two recalls down Flash's throat that he ended up losing his position and eventually the game. and this is with someone who's not particulary known for his pvt, a testament to CJ's coaching prowess and their ability to dissect an opponent's tendencies and make strategies specifically tailored for that opponent, especially if they have the time.
can't wait for this finals, it's gonna be epic. hopefully flash doesn't try to just "feel" his way but prepares for effort specifically.
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On May 19 2010 21:30 d_so wrote:
one could argue flash got lucky with game 1 and only won that OSL through the psychological advantage he gained from winning that game..
Or one could argue that he won because he was clearly the better player and overcame any strategic advantages movie/CJ threw at him.
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On May 19 2010 21:15 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 20:47 Monsen wrote:
That's kind of my point. The problem is that you automatically assume an intention behind this. I think he just didn't have the multitasking. His macro from the gates at 10 was lacking too, which supports my point to some extent.
While darktreb has a point in his claim that Snow might have made the Nexus for it's potential to be a full mining base should the opportunity arise, you don't.
Snow could have blocked Flash just as easily by building his gates in the spot of the Nexus. it's more like a combination of the two (blocking the CC + the potential for becoming a full mining base) that explains why the 11oclock was such a threat. combining those two aspects increases the opportunity cost by a huge margin and forces flash to attack that position faster than it would like. it also allows snow to keep the fight in an uncomfortable, uphill position for flash with lots of scv losses from recalls. i think to say he didn't have the macro to spam p at a nexus for five minutes is pretty much absurd. you don't build an expansion and then just forget about it, not at this level. no, he intentionally did not make probes, kinda like how he intentionally built arbiters after his fleet beacon, and even if we can't completely pinpoint what that intention was, i think it's safe to say there was an intention. the whole game showed careful thought and preparation, there's no reason to single out this single aspect that actually became a turning point in the late game to be something that happened nonchalantly or accidentally. edit: seems like a few other posters beat me to the punch regarding your lack of thought. oh well
So you're saying him not building probes at 10 "became a turning point in late game". Interesting.
So there was a "turning point in late game" as in "Flash was ahead until then". And the reason for that was "not building probes at 10". Gosh I'm really ashamed at my "lack of thought".
Also I really would ask most of you to really identify what others are actually saying, instead of just skipping over posts and venting. It makes you look dumb.
Noone ever claimed that Snow "macroed badly".
Noone ever claimed that it's "hard to press p on a Nexus".
Noone ever claimed that taking 10 wasn't planned or advantageous for Snow.
I'm just talking about the lack of probes.
Not building probes does not make 10 "such a threat". Not building probes does not "allows snow to keep the fight in an uncomfortable, uphill position for flash with lots of scv losses from recalls".
Not building probes does not "increase the opportunity cost by a huge margin and forces flash to attack that position faster than it would like".
I said that Snows macro from the gates at 10 was "lacking". He certainly did not use them to their full capacity. Which reinforces my original point- While pressing P is a task most of us are capable of, handling the full blown 5+ base multitask in a game versus Flash is not exactly easy.
So not F-keybinding your n-th expo and thus not making probes there is certainly a possibility.
@Infernal: I'm fully aware that neither you nor me can (or should) claim infailability in here. None of us can know the exacty reason for the lack of probes- it's all speculative.
While Snows game was brilliant without question, I still think that when playing such a demanding game there is room for non-perfection. Maybe I'm wrong and everything Snow did was planned out and perfect. Most posters here certainly seem to think so.
Also I'm sorry in case my remark is turning your thread into something you don't like. I hope discussion is welcome in a "thoughts"-thread.
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EPT
