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Active: 33939 users

Blizzard to cease negotiations with KeSPA - Page 20

Forum Index > BW General
649 CommentsPost a Reply
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cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
April 26 2010 08:36 GMT
#381
I say the koreans can fly to america and be sponsored here
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
Clearout
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway1060 Posts
April 26 2010 08:48 GMT
#382
On April 25 2010 12:22 kuresuti wrote:
Haiti... Iceland... Now this? 2012?


You sir win half my internetz for that
really?
Eury
Profile Joined December 2008
Sweden1126 Posts
April 26 2010 08:56 GMT
#383
On April 26 2010 17:33 nimoraca wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 26 2010 17:04 Eury wrote:
People really don't seem to understand that Brood War is dying in Korea. Compare the popularity for the game in 2006 with today, and it's night and day.

Brood War is dying with or without SC 2, and KeSPA is signing their own doom when they refuses to cooperate.


What is even more frightening is that it might be the case that pro gaming in Korea is dying and not just BW.


Well, that's true. That's pretty much the reason why KeSPA have tried to push Sudden Attack and other games so hard in the last years. They are trying to find a replacement to BW, but they have had no luck so far.
[X]Ken_D
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
United States4650 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-26 10:34:20
April 26 2010 10:12 GMT
#384
On April 26 2010 00:38 J1.au wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 25 2010 23:43 [X]Ken_D wrote:
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote:
Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.

EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.


I LOLed. How naive and misguided. Korean BW league existed long before KeSPA. Ask anyone here who has been in the scene long enough!

But if there had been no KeSPA would Korean BW have continued this long? I doubt it.


Here is an easy example and it is basically the same. If FIFA organization suddenly cease to exist would there still be football? Of course it would still be around and huge because there is a huge demand for it. Someone else will replace it. The organization is shit compare to the demand for something.
[X]Domain - I just do the website. Nothing more.
[X]Ken_D
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
United States4650 Posts
April 26 2010 10:16 GMT
#385
On April 26 2010 02:58 SoMuchBetter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 26 2010 02:55 Squallcloud wrote:
Don't understand why Kespa doesn't negotiate instead of making a big mess of this. They don't own game there's nothing more to it.

You steal a car, the guy who owned it doesn't care if you took good care of it and made it famous.

because kespa has always been about short sighted and short term returns, hence their near misses with almost killing their own industry and blatant abuse of the rights of the players its built on


This right here.

KESPA had the chance to offer English commentary and go global, but they never did. Them being short sighted is actually hurting and killing esports in the long run.
[X]Domain - I just do the website. Nothing more.
Lann555
Profile Joined February 2010
Netherlands5173 Posts
April 26 2010 10:33 GMT
#386
On April 26 2010 19:16 [X]Ken_D wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 26 2010 02:58 SoMuchBetter wrote:
On April 26 2010 02:55 Squallcloud wrote:
Don't understand why Kespa doesn't negotiate instead of making a big mess of this. They don't own game there's nothing more to it.

You steal a car, the guy who owned it doesn't care if you took good care of it and made it famous.

because kespa has always been about short sighted and short term returns, hence their near misses with almost killing their own industry and blatant abuse of the rights of the players its built on


This right here.

KESPA had the chance to offer English commentary and go global, but they never did. Them being short sighted is actually hurting and killing esports in the long run.


How much money would really be in BW outside Korea? Sure, there is a hardcore fan-base for pro-BW, but it's probably not very large.
Fantasy Fan! Gogogo vultures
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
April 26 2010 10:39 GMT
#387
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote:
Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.

EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.


KeSPA are an awful company. They care only about the money and don't give a damn about whatever fans they have. They're just in this to make a quick buck while Brood War is still popular. Someone will easily replace KeSPA, perhaps even a better company which would be alot better for spreading the scene outside of Korea.

Korea wouldn't have any foreign players mainly due to influences from Kespa, without KeSPA stopping things like that eSports could finally become a worldwide thing.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
k!llua
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Australia895 Posts
April 26 2010 10:50 GMT
#388
On April 26 2010 19:39 Qikz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote:
Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.

EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.


KeSPA are an awful company. They care only about the money and don't give a damn about whatever fans they have. They're just in this to make a quick buck while Brood War is still popular. Someone will easily replace KeSPA, perhaps even a better company which would be alot better for spreading the scene outside of Korea.

Korea wouldn't have any foreign players mainly due to influences from Kespa, without KeSPA stopping things like that eSports could finally become a worldwide thing.


Is that a KeSPA thing or just a cultural stigma?
my hair is a wookie, your argument is invalid
Lann555
Profile Joined February 2010
Netherlands5173 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-26 11:03:25
April 26 2010 11:02 GMT
#389
On April 25 2010 12:30 Qikz wrote:


Korea wouldn't have any foreign players mainly due to influences from Kespa, without KeSPA stopping things like that eSports could finally become a worldwide thing.


You are kidding right? How can Kespa prevent e-Sports from becoming global when they only control what is going on in Korea? There is nothing stopping the creation of e-Sports in EU/NA except the lack of interest from both investors and the general public and that is totally unrelated to Kespa. Sure, Kespa could have tried harder to make Korean BW viewable outside of Korea or provide English commentary or something, but that would be suicide financially. The number of people outside Korea interested in watching Korean BW is probably way too small to make that viable
Fantasy Fan! Gogogo vultures
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
April 26 2010 11:41 GMT
#390
On April 26 2010 19:39 Qikz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote:
Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.

EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.


KeSPA are an awful company. They care only about the money and don't give a damn about whatever fans they have. They're just in this to make a quick buck while Brood War is still popular.

I want you to list reasons why you have this view of Kespa.

I for one do not understand the extreme hate they get here on TL. Sure they could handle certain things better, but some people make it sound like they're worse than the Nazis.
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
nonduc
Profile Joined May 2009
Russian Federation405 Posts
April 26 2010 11:43 GMT
#391
On April 26 2010 12:14 mrdx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 26 2010 06:33 nonduc wrote:
On April 26 2010 06:06 Waxangel wrote:
I think people should keep something very important things in mind when they assess what KeSPA has done for e-sports.

OnGameNet and MBCGame were running Starcraft tourneys perfectly fine for four years before KeSPA came into place. All of the early pioneering and laying of the foundations was done by the TV companies, the very early Pro-game teams (no big corporate sponsors for most of them, many of them were really quite poor), and the progamers who stuck through it when there was barely any money.

After it became apparent that E-sports had a chance of having a viable mid-term future, KeSPA came into play. KeSPA is a strange organization by the way, it's more accurate to call it the "E-sports Team OWNER's association," as it's controlled by the interests of the pro-game teams (the NFL, MLB, NBA are ostensible different, tho one could say they cater to the owners to a fault).

KeSPA's primary creation is the pro-league, not exactly the most original idea, but part of their vision to make Starcraft a team centric sport. The only league they actually operate is the proleague, the OSL and MSL are just tournaments they officially recognize. Five day proleague weeks is part of their strategy to make proleague the important league (and in many ways it is).

KeSPA's gutsiest and most reckless move was when they tried to sell the broadcasting rights of their Starcraft leagues. Essentially, they were making OGN and MBCGame pay to broadcast the content they had created without KeSPA's help years ago, and without any design to pay Blizzard any royalties for the direct profit they would be making off their game.


Anyway, some kind of organization was always going to be needed, but KeSPA is a very incompetent and selfish incarnation

You are wrong.
KeSPA started back in 2000 — in August 2001 was the first KPGA Tour and the first KPGA ranking was published in November 2001. (KeSPA was named KPGA up to 2002.)

@nonduc: Waxangel is one of the most knowledgeable of the Korean progaming scene here, so no offence to you but please carefully read his post again, or perhaps print it out and stick it on your wall - cos I don't think you get his points (which are FACTS that everyone needs to know before having an opinion on this KeSPA v Blizzard issue).

Are you kidding?!
In 2001–2003 KeSPA started on MBC both individual and team leagues!
2001 KPGA August—2001 KPGA November + KPGA Winners Championship
2002 KPGA 1st Tour
2002 Reebok KPGA 2nd Tour
2002 Pepsi Twist KPGA 3rd Tour
2002–2003 Baskin Robbins KPGA 4th Tour
2003 KeMongSa KPGA Tour Team League
2003 LifeZone KPGA Team League
It was a huge support in forming the second largest StarCraft broadcasting channel.
티라노사저그 렉스 화이팅~!
fearus
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
China2164 Posts
April 26 2010 11:49 GMT
#392
KeSPA bullying GOM, now they get bullied by big daddy......kane.
bisu fanboy
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33327 Posts
April 26 2010 11:54 GMT
#393
On April 26 2010 11:30 nonduc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 26 2010 10:47 Waxangel wrote:
On April 26 2010 07:54 nonduc wrote:
On April 26 2010 07:35 Waxangel wrote:
On April 26 2010 07:33 nonduc wrote:
On April 26 2010 07:26 Waxangel wrote:
On April 26 2010 07:21 nonduc wrote:
On April 26 2010 07:12 Waxangel wrote:
On April 26 2010 06:33 nonduc wrote:
On April 26 2010 06:06 Waxangel wrote:
I think people should keep something very important things in mind when they assess what KeSPA has done for e-sports.

OnGameNet and MBCGame were running Starcraft tourneys perfectly fine for four years before KeSPA came into place. All of the early pioneering and laying of the foundations was done by the TV companies, the very early Pro-game teams (no big corporate sponsors for most of them, many of them were really quite poor), and the progamers who stuck through it when there was barely any money.

After it became apparent that E-sports had a chance of having a viable mid-term future, KeSPA came into play. KeSPA is a strange organization by the way, it's more accurate to call it the "E-sports Team OWNER's association," as it's controlled by the interests of the pro-game teams (the NFL, MLB, NBA are ostensible different, tho one could say they cater to the owners to a fault).

KeSPA's primary creation is the pro-league, not exactly the most original idea, but part of their vision to make Starcraft a team centric sport. The only league they actually operate is the proleague, the OSL and MSL are just tournaments they officially recognize. Five day proleague weeks is part of their strategy to make proleague the important league (and in many ways it is).

KeSPA's gutsiest and most reckless move was when they tried to sell the broadcasting rights of their Starcraft leagues. Essentially, they were making OGN and MBCGame pay to broadcast the content they had created without KeSPA's help years ago, and without any design to pay Blizzard any royalties for the direct profit they would be making off their game.


Anyway, some kind of organization was always going to be needed, but KeSPA is a very incompetent and selfish incarnation

You are wrong.
KeSPA started back in 2000 — in August 2001 was the first KPGA Tour and the first KPGA ranking was published in November 2001. (KeSPA was named KPGA up to 2002.)


KPGA can barely be called the previous incarnation of KeSPA, enough so that in practice it's irrelevant.

In 2002 Korea Pro Game Association (KPGA) was just renamed in Korea e-Sports Association (KeSPA).


I did say in practice :o

Is KeSPA rankins started in November 2001 (when KeSPA was named as KPGA)?
Yes, it is.
Your “in practice” is irrelevant to practice. In practice KPGA and KeSPA was the same thing with two names.


Er, if I reword it, then it would be that they're the same in theory, but very different in effect.

In your last post your wording is bad too. The Association has a long history with many achievements and also failures — there is no “the Association in theory” and no “the Association in effect”.


No, in theory they would KPGA and KeSPA are the same organization since the founding. In effect, early KPGA was a small organization that lent its name to gembc/mbcgame who was looking for a name to lend itself legitimacy, although it did perform the function of handing out progaming licenses from that early date. KeSPA after the chair passed to SKTelecom is the organization that started pro-league and represented the team owner's interests almost exclusively, while trying to sell OGN and MBCGame the rights to broadcast their own product.

Whatever, the semantics don't interest me as long as you seem to get my point.

I get your point — you cannot treat a long KPGA/KeSPA history properly and that’s why you use wrong data, terms, words, etc.
E.g. you wrote “KeSPA after the chair passed to SKTelecom… the rights to broadcast their own product” — that passing was in 2008, the broadcasting rights incindent was in early 2007, the united under KeSPA Proleague started in 2005 (SKY Proleague 2005 Round 1). The history of KeSPA is more complicated than your description of it.


Actually the position of chair passed to SKT in early 2005, just before the very first proleague (http://www.e-sports.or.kr/about/history.kea?m_Code=about_40&hYear=2005). I don't see how listing dates is disproving my points that KeSPA changed greatly in role, power and goals from its early beginnings
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
nimoraca
Profile Joined February 2007
Serbia84 Posts
April 26 2010 11:56 GMT
#394
Comments of type "KeSPA only cares about money..." are really funny. If Blizzard were really caring for us (the players), they would put LAN support in SC2, which they didn't, which just proves they only care about the money too. There was even an online petition regarding the LAN issue.

This is not really a discussion on whether the KeSPA is evil and treating the players like shit (which is true). The point is that any other organizations/sponsors would think twice before investing the money in organizing the leagues under the conditions required by Blizzard.

To me it seems that a game company should be happy if its game gets choosen by a progaming organization (be it KeSPA or not) to be played on the professional level. That is a huge commercial (free one). Imagine if WCG would need to pay Blizzard for SC2. If Blizzard was smart enough, they would pay WCG to introduce SC2 cause that would mean a huge publicity. Blizzard sold almost 5 million copies of SCBW in Korea. That something like 100mil in revenue for Blizz. To me it looks like Blizz should be paying KeSPA and not the other way around.
Oddysay
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Canada597 Posts
April 26 2010 12:01 GMT
#395
Three Rings for the KESPA kings under the sky,
Seven for the korean in their halls of stone,
Nine for the foreigner and e-sport doomed to die,
One for the blizzard Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where blizzard lie.
One Ring for e-sport to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring the e-sport in the darkness and bind them
In the Land of dead where blizzard lie.
Kyo Yuy
Profile Joined January 2009
United States1286 Posts
April 26 2010 12:14 GMT
#396
On April 26 2010 20:41 Holgerius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 26 2010 19:39 Qikz wrote:
On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote:
Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.

EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors.


KeSPA are an awful company. They care only about the money and don't give a damn about whatever fans they have. They're just in this to make a quick buck while Brood War is still popular.

I want you to list reasons why you have this view of Kespa.

I for one do not understand the extreme hate they get here on TL. Sure they could handle certain things better, but some people make it sound like they're worse than the Nazis.

I don't want to say that KeSPA has only done bad, because I have no clue, but I can list reasons why I personally dislike KeSPA:

1) Free Agent fiasco
2) Giving Leta and GoRush forfeit losses for typing ppp incorrectly.
3) Forcing GOM to stop broadcasting tournaments by withdrawing most teams from the tournament

These are a few of the reasons why I don't think KeSPA is a good organization to represent eSports. Realistically, it's hard to tell how Blizzard would run things because we've never really seen Blizzard directly host an eSports tournament (last thing I remember was Blizzard sponsoring GOM), but I do know that KeSPA often does not have the players' best interests in mind, as indicated from the ridiculously strict, unfair policies regarding Free Agents (forcing the buying team to pay double the salary of the selling team for a player, and a player possibly losing their ability to play if they even sign up for Free Agency).

In my humble opinion, I think that Blizzard will end up working with GOM for future Korean eSports endeavors. Considering the company has worked with GOM in the past, and considering Blizzard DID TRY to negotiate with KeSPA (fair or not), I think Blizzard does want the help of Korean companies in promoting and hosting eSports in Korea.
#1 KawaiiRice fan :D
Vedic
Profile Joined March 2008
United States582 Posts
April 26 2010 12:22 GMT
#397
On April 26 2010 20:56 nimoraca wrote:
Comments of type "KeSPA only cares about money..." are really funny. If Blizzard were really caring for us (the players), they would put LAN support in SC2, which they didn't, which just proves they only care about the money too. There was even an online petition regarding the LAN issue.


This is incredibly ignorant. Blizzard's move for a central server system is to protect it's investment (and, by proxy, YOUR investment), which also keeps the players/community unified.

There was a petition to stop Doom 3 from being released for being satanic, too. Petitions mean NOTHING.
I tried to commit seppuku, but I accidentally committed bukkake.
vek
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia936 Posts
April 26 2010 12:24 GMT
#398
On April 26 2010 19:16 [X]Ken_D wrote:
KESPA had the chance to offer English commentary and go global, but they never did. Them being short sighted is actually hurting and killing esports in the long run.


You know they (OGN/MBC) can't actually do this because they don't have the rights to broadcast internationally (GOM had a different deal)? You know this is Blizzard's fault and not KeSPA's? I'm sure they would absolutely love to take their BW scene global but Blizzard is too restrictive so they are stuck with keeping it in Korea where they only have to deal with their own laws.
ket-
Profile Joined April 2010
97 Posts
April 26 2010 12:31 GMT
#399
Well, the way I see it, I've always had the feeling Blizzard is very close to its players - they care about what people say, and try to adjust. I VERY highly doubt they'd just want to go against KeSPA, they probably did try to negociate to make things better for everyone. Least I imagine it so.

But from what I've read about KeSPA over the years, they kinda seem to really want the whole cake - in this situation I'm fairly sure they don't even care that much and just think they're big enough to take the hit or have a trick up their sleeve.

Then again, I'm fairly clueless on the subject and just throwing out assumptions here.
HiyA is bestest.
vek
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia936 Posts
April 26 2010 12:32 GMT
#400
On April 26 2010 21:22 Vedic wrote:
This is incredibly ignorant. Blizzard's move for a central server system is to protect it's investment (and, by proxy, YOUR investment), which also keeps the players/community unified..


I hope by central you mean split up... forcing separate regions keeps the comunity unified? That just doesn't make sense...

I haven't seen anything that baddle.net 2.0 does that backs up your argument. I have owned about 3 copies of SC/BW throughout the years but I would still rather play on iCCup or LAN with friends than battle.net. I doubt there are many people on iCCup that have not bought legitimate copies of the game.
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IEM Cologne 2025
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