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Hi all, I'm newly registered here on TL, and was actually inspired to post this after stumbling across the StarCraft Progamer TCG on this forum. I've been making up rules for games ever since I was a kid, and now that I've grown up a bit, the rules I make are a bit more elaborate and consistent.
Anyways, recently, I modified an old card game I made up in order to accommodate StarCraft races and units. It only uses standard playing cards (2 decks), and is more fun than you might think at first.
I've written up a pdf document containing the full rules, located at mediafire:
v1.02 beta - http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?lnyjzy3jgjz
v1.01 - http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?wnywdfvvtzz
It is a fairly lengthy pdf, unfortunately, but if you have a friend willing to give the game a shot with you, I assure you, there is enjoyment and a fair bit of strategical depth to it. I've played through a number of times, and the balance seems okay (but is not necessarily perfect by any means; random chance makes balance a little more difficult).
By no means do I expect everyone to sit down immediately and play it for hours on end or anything; in fact, if even one other person enjoys it, I'll consider it a success.
If you have any suggestions/questions/clarifications, please do not hesitate to reply to this thread, as I would be more than happy to assist anyone willing to give the game a shot.
(I posted this earlier in the Sports & Games forum, please close this thread if the topic should stay in the other forum)
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I've updated the rules file again, mostly formatting this time, but there was also some rearrangement and new pictures to clear things up a bit.
If anyone has any suggestions for formatting or anything, don't hesitate to let me know!
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Gonna check it out and try and play a game with a friend. Seems pretty thorough, but gonna wait till playing to give any info.
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Let me know how it goes and/or if there's anything obvious missing from the rules. My friends and I haven't typically had a full reference like this and generally go with whatever rules we've discussed up to that point, so I'm worried that I've skipped something just because it seems obvious to me.
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Also, you have two threads up. It's confusing and kinda unnecessary.
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Braavos36375 Posts
Moving this to Brood War and closing other threads.
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I had put the one in the Games forum because it's where I saw the ProGamer TCG. Sorry for the confusion, I'll just stick to the one thread!
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Haven't even looked at the rules yet, but I already want to play it. I'll get my roommate to play with me tomorrow, back with results and opinions then.
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Awesome! I'm really looking forward to seeing how other people like this game! I know that the first night my friend and I actually sat down to test it out, we ended up playing for like four hours straight (multiple games, on average a game takes roughly as long as a game of SC would.)
The actual released version (i.e. this one) has several features that are fairly new and haven't been tested super thoroughly. The big ones are the scout rating system, the current usage of spider mines, the zergling rush, the supply depot wall, and the protoss' advanced technology. If any of those features seem imbalanced (either over- or under-powered), let me know. All of those features (except the spider mines) have arisen from my attempts to adapt the game to SC2, and I liked them enough to port them backwards. The current incarnation of the spider mines is different from the original version, since in making this release version, I pulled out a turn ability which allowed players to set a "trap" which allowed one-time use of Health and Damage cards to gain enhanced effect, and the Spider Mines were a modification of the trap. Since traps were dumb and nobody used them (not even for spider mines), I pulled them and put in the current mines.
tl;dr - Have fun and let me know how it goes!
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this seems like it could be a lot of fun... trying to understand the rules now 
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This definitely needs more attention.
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sounds like a more awesom version of yu-gi-oh :D lol
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I've read a little bit of that .pdf. Seems interesting. As an official judge for Yu-Gi-Oh! as well as being a nationally ranked top duelist, with a large interest in game design, I'll definitely be teaching myself how to play it and see what's up.
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I downloaded the file when it was first uploaded but haven't had anyone to try it out with... =(
I was thinking that it was too bad that there wasn't a Starcraft deck to use instead of two standard playing card decks. So I started thinking, what if someone were to program this game? Then we could make "cards" with pictures of the units from BW!
Who's interested?
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Haha, downloading. This sounds interesting.
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Good work dude, would play it with a friend who likes starcraft
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You can use Magic Workstation to put pictures of "cards" with BW units.
You can even play the game with ppl online with it, with the proper rule changes in magic work station.
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They already have a board game, with Card-based combat
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Yeah, I know. I own it and the Brood War expansion. The only problem is finding people to play with... My wife isn't really into Starcraft... She prefers Harvest Moon and Agricola. =)
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I feel your pain, I only have the orginal but I could only have 1v1 vs a friend of my who i no longer hang out with, so it just collect dust =[
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if only we could play through correspondence... =) I got the BW expansion for christmas and opened it right away... I was so excited to look at all of the pieces and read the rules but I've not once actually played it...
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Holy crap you guys! I left for work and come back to find this thing has EXPLODED! Thank you all so much for showing some interest in this!
Anyways, I knew there was a boardgame, but I've never played it, and it also costs like $100 or something. I didn't know it had card-based combat though 
I might have to check out that magic workstation thing.
Has anyone managed to wrangle up someone and give this game a play yet?
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You mind doing a demonstration video of the game and post it on youtube?
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A demonstration video sounds like an awesome idea. I'll talk to my friend (i.e. the other half of FSP) and try and get it done saturday evening. I'd do it sooner, but I'm busy until then. If anyone wants to give it a shot before we get the video up, I'll try to check in and help with anything confusing (either here or via PM).
Also, I've thought about a computer version of it, but I'm nowhere near that skilled in programming. That and it's kind of amusing to think about making a computer game out of a card game that was based on a computer game.
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Hey i have a question about the health and damage part. I understand pretty much everything i think, of the unit costs, health and damage stats as you described, with tech costs giving you the racial abilities and stuff, but when you atk or fling damage or health, don't you need cards beside the units like you said, but what if you dont have the necessary number cards, to represent the correct damage or health? cuz i mean if its 10 damage, what if you dont have cards that equal 10?
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I'm in class and I skimmed over the rules and this sounds REALLY interesting! I will definitely try it out with a roommate or friend soon!
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Okay, I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm going to use an example to clarify.
You (Toss) are playing against Bob (Zerg). Bob spawns a Hydralisk (30:20), and attaches 8 health to it (so the health goes to his left of the Hydralisk) and now the Hydralisk has 38 health. Now, you're saying you want to fling damage at the Hydralisk, but are worried because you don't have damage cards that add up to 8?
If that's the case, there is no need to worry, because it doesn't need to add up evenly. You actually just add the damage to the same side as the Hydralisk's health, where it counts as a negative bonus. So, in this case, say you fling 5 damage at the Hydra. You would add that damage card to your right of the Hydra, where the health is. That Hydra would then only have a total of 33 health.
I think that should answer your question, if not, just let me know!
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On March 25 2010 13:17 kingjames01 wrote:
if only we could play through correspondence... =) I got the BW expansion for christmas and opened it right away... I was so excited to look at all of the pieces and read the rules but I've not once actually played it...
The Rules/Phases/Battle/Resource Gathering is all a bit overwhelming at first, when my friend and I first played our first game took like 3 hours and we only did maybe 10 turns without battle because we were attempting to succesfully get through a turn without missing steps. After about the 3rd time we play it was mostly like "oh, duh" it would be much easier to teach someone now how to play.
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Out of curiosity, how does the card-based combat in the board game work? I haven't accidentally pulled some sort of overlap with it, have I?
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Oh no, your rules are basically different. The combat goes as follows: (We'll skip how the battle was started and go straight to the battle itself.)
Each player has a front-line unit. Each front-line unit may have supporting units helping out.
Each player has several cards in a hand that they are allowed to choose from to use in this particular battle. At least one card must be used and at most two cards may be used. The first card must be a standard combat card. The second is a reinforcement card.
A standard combat card has the following:
- a picture depicting which units are associated with that card
- a major attack value
- a minor attack value
- a major health value
- a minor health value
- (optional) a special ability
To elaborate further:
if the front-line unit is a Zergling and I play a standard combat card which shows a picture of a Zergling and a Hydralisk then I may use the major attack and health values for that battle. However, if for some reason, by chance (or choice), I used that same card when my front-line unit was a mutalisk, then I would have to use the minor attack and health values.
A reinforcement card has the following:
- a picture depicting which units are associated with that card
- a special ability
In this case, the reinforcement card may be played if and only if the front-line unit or a supporting unit matches with the picture on the card. For example, if in my hand I have a Plague card, then I would only be able to use it if one of my supporting units was a Defiler.
Anyway, the play mechanic goes as follows:
- Cards are revealed
- Compare the attack and health values (plus any bonuses listed on the combat or reinforcement cards)
- Add attack values based on the units that are supporting in the fight
- If the attack value equals or exceeds the health value, the opponent's front-line unit is destroyed
- At this point resolve any outstanding special abilities/actions such as splash damage
This is just a basic overview of the card-based combat mechanic. I skipped a few details that didn't seem necessary to the explanation. Hope you were able to follow it!
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Thanks for the rundown! I can see a couple similarities, but when they're both trying to simulate the same game, you're bound to have a few things in common.
That said, my game is pretty well JUST the combat part, without any sort of real resource-gathering stuff. I'll have to play the board game at sooome point, but for most cases a twenty-minute card game is way more doable than a longass board game.
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Not a problem. =) If you ever get a chance and have friends who are interested as well, I'd recommend the Starcraft board game. It's a little costly but it helps if you have a friend who will split the cost. However, if you don't have anyone to play with, like myself, it's not really worth it... haha. =(
For the people who know details about the Magic Workshop, is it easy to change to ruleset so that we could play Siggy's game online?
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Actually, I have a friend who has it, but the big thing is finding enough people who can all schedule the same day to do it because from what I've heard, it is an all day endeavour.
I looked at that Magic Workshop (very) briefly and I think the biggest hitch to importing my ruleset is the fact that both players share a draw pile. It's too bad though, it seems like my game would be taking off like crazy if it had an online version.
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By the way, I just noticed that you're in Canada... which city are you in? I'm outside of Toronto...
Well, I'd help program the game if you, or other people, could share the workload. I'm doing my Ph.D. and that takes up a LOT of my time...
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I'm from Edmonton. Toronto is terrifying.
I'm not all that programming-savvy (unless it's solving PDEs in MATLAB). But upon second glance at Magic Workshop, it claims it can play "any card game ever invented", so I'm going to look at it a little closer and see if it's got the capabilities.
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looks interesting, downloading now ^^
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I looked around a bit, and from what I can tell, VASSAL (http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php) should be able to be set up to run this game. There look to be a couple other card game engines out there, but I'm not sure how they'd handle things like the tech piles. Since VASSAL works for board games as well, I think it could manage tech piles properly.
Has anyone ever used it before?
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Wow! That is a great find!!! This is exactly what we're looking for! Maybe this weekend when I've got a bit more time, I can explore it a bit. The fact that it is open-source is amazing!
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On March 26 2010 07:41 FSP.Siggy wrote:
Okay, I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm going to use an example to clarify.
You (Toss) are playing against Bob (Zerg). Bob spawns a Hydralisk (30:20), and attaches 8 health to it (so the health goes to his left of the Hydralisk) and now the Hydralisk has 38 health. Now, you're saying you want to fling damage at the Hydralisk, but are worried because you don't have damage cards that add up to 8?
If that's the case, there is no need to worry, because it doesn't need to add up evenly. You actually just add the damage to the same side as the Hydralisk's health, where it counts as a negative bonus. So, in this case, say you fling 5 damage at the Hydra. You would add that damage card to your right of the Hydra, where the health is. That Hydra would then only have a total of 33 health.
I think that should answer your question, if not, just let me know!
ok so flinging damage is just w/e card you have in your hand to attach to the hydras health, but what about atking? when you atk with a unit that has 50 damage, don't you need cards in your hand to equal 50? wait im reading your rules again and it says an attack is launched by adding all damage values of your units and seeing if that total is higher than the health value of your opponents front unit , and then it is killed if it is so im guessing you dont need to attach damage cards to it cuz you're just calculating if its dead or not... so doesn't that mean usually in a fight, whoever goes will almost certainly kill a unit? i see so i think i answered my own question.. so damage and health cards are only for flinging, and atking is just the calculation of all those cards am i correct?
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On March 26 2010 12:55 Raz0r wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2010 07:41 FSP.Siggy wrote:
Okay, I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm going to use an example to clarify.
You (Toss) are playing against Bob (Zerg). Bob spawns a Hydralisk (30:20), and attaches 8 health to it (so the health goes to his left of the Hydralisk) and now the Hydralisk has 38 health. Now, you're saying you want to fling damage at the Hydralisk, but are worried because you don't have damage cards that add up to 8?
If that's the case, there is no need to worry, because it doesn't need to add up evenly. You actually just add the damage to the same side as the Hydralisk's health, where it counts as a negative bonus. So, in this case, say you fling 5 damage at the Hydra. You would add that damage card to your right of the Hydra, where the health is. That Hydra would then only have a total of 33 health.
I think that should answer your question, if not, just let me know! ok so flinging damage is just w/e card you have in your hand to attach to the hydras health, but what about atking? when you atk with a unit that has 50 damage, don't you need cards in your hand to equal 50? wait im reading your rules again and it says an attack is launched by adding all damage values of your units and seeing if that total is higher than the health value of your opponents front unit , and then it is killed if it is so im guessing you dont need to attach damage cards to it cuz you're just calculating if its dead or not... so doesn't that mean usually in a fight, whoever goes will almost certainly kill a unit? i see so i think i answered my own question.. so damage and health cards are only for flinging, and atking is just the calculation of all those cards am i correct?
Flinging is entirely separate from attacking. Health and damage cards can be used to fling OR used to fortify your own units. A unit with 50 damage has that damage all the time and is used for every attack. You'd think that usually you'd be able to kill things, but see, that's the point of the game! You need to keep your units alive, kill your opponent's units, and then kill him!
When you use health and damage cards to fortify your units, you are increasing their health or damage from the base value given in the unit tables. Flinging health and damage cards lowers the damage and health, respectively, of your opponent's unit. Attacking is independent from all of this, and occurs at the end of your turn (if you choose not to scout). But you seem to understand how attacking works.
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On March 26 2010 12:51 kingjames01 wrote:
Wow! That is a great find!!! This is exactly what we're looking for! Maybe this weekend when I've got a bit more time, I can explore it a bit. The fact that it is open-source is amazing!
Yeah, holy wow. I downloaded it and cracked open the module editor with the reference manual. I am entirely lost and I have no way how to implement the myriad of functions each card in this game has. It's going to take a fair bit of reading to figure it out.
Has anyone seen a piece of software that is just a freeform space with playing cards? I know there's a google wave applet dealie that can do it, but I was wondering if there was something a bit more robust.
EDIT: I found it! The piece of software that will let us play without having to code the whole thing! http://www.rlsoftwares.com/baralhovirtual/index.php (if it comes up with an msvcr71 error, get the file from here http://www.dll-files.com/dllindex/dll-files.shtml?msvcr71 and put it into the VirtualDeck directory)
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I'll have to check this out! =)
Yeah, it doesn't handle the rules automatically like the other software but it looks like it can do anything. As long as the player isn't an ass and really does want to play then it should be EXACTLY what we need to test out this game online! Maybe tomorrow I'll try to find some players to play. Right now I need to sleep...
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Well, I know I'd definitely be up for playing against anyone who wants sort of a guided introduction to the game. I fiddled around inside Virtual Deck on my own for a bit and I think I've figured out a way to make basically all of the mechanics work. It's a little slower than playing with actual cards (except stuff like shuffling), but it'll definitely do to get people able to play against each other!
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can someone please explain the rules of mercenary to me?
i want to play both games
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cool man
thank you
trying to understand the rules of ur game rite now =P
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No problem, good to have some interest in this! Really, if you can understand the original Mercenary, you should have noo problem with the Starcraft Edition; it's the same with a few extra features.
Anyways, if anyone would be available tonight to try that Virtual Deck out, I'd like to give it a shot!
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i dont know how to use virtual deck program, it asks for like a username, and ip address? i tried putting mine in but it just freezes and does nothing.
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If you'd like to play a game, I can set up a server and I'll give you my IP info and stuff, just PM me!
Virtual Deck is kiiind of picky about the whole server thing, but I fiddled with it last night and I think I've got it working for it.
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Well, turns out virtual deck is more awesome than I'd anticipated, and populates a server list based on anyone who's running a server.
If anyone would like to play, I'll have the M: SC server running for the rest of the weekend, if you get virtual deck running you can just jump on in! (Please use a name similar to on here, please.) Apart from recording that demo video, I should also be online all evening as well to help out with any questions anyone has!
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I've updated the rules again (link in OP, of course!)
Here are my "patch notes"
1.01
Buffs:
Terran: - Marines now give +3 damage to all other marines and firebats (up from 2).
Zerg: - Zergling Rush may now be performed with any number of zerglings, and now gives a free draw (per zergling) if successful.
- Queens now have a +2 scout rating bonus (Parasite)
- Overlords now lower opponent's scout rating by 2, rather than just 1.
Protoss: - Shuttles now give Reavers a +15 damage bonus.
- Scarabs now deal 20 damage
Nerfs:
Terran: - Stim Packs no longer give splash.
Zerg:
Protoss: - Scarabs now only deal half damage to flying units.
EDIT: I left out the bit on queens in the pdf, but I've edited and updated (sorry to the six of you!)
Also, filming for the demo video went less-than-awesome (i.e. was attacked by cats) and is now delayed for a bit. A fraps'ed version using virtual deck is definitely doable though.
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For the next week (i.e. until the end of classes), I will have the virtual deck server offline, but I can start it up if anyone manages to find someone to play with. Just PM me or reply here and I'll start it up. After that I will fire it back up all the time again
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reminds me of these:
"does not affect tossgirl" ROFL that is too rich
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Which card game is that? It doesn't look like the pokemon-based progamer tcg, which is the only other one I've seen.
Also, a couple of my friends have mentioned to me that the presentation of the rules needs SOMETHING. From "more pictures" to "some sort of interactive web interface for browsing the rules and races and stuff". I mean, I agree that it's missing something, I just don't know what, since I was mostly just concerned with getting all the rules together and out there. Does anyone who'se read the rules have any sort of suggestions for what they could be missing in order to kind of draw more interest to the game.
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On April 08 2010 01:41 FSP.Siggy wrote:
Which card game is that? It doesn't look like the pokemon-based progamer tcg, which is the only other one I've seen.
are you talking about the ones right above your post? that's magic:the gathering
+ Show Spoiler +
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On April 08 2010 05:24 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 01:41 FSP.Siggy wrote:
Which card game is that? It doesn't look like the pokemon-based progamer tcg, which is the only other one I've seen. are you talking about the ones right above your post? that's magic:the gathering + Show Spoiler +
i think mtg, yugioh, and pokemon are like the top three tcg's?
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I love your game and played a few games, but the summoning rule was confusing at first. I would give a few examples for each combination like XK, or 2RQ, etc.
Keep up the good work!
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"I summon twelve hydralisks to the field!"
"Ah-hah! You've activated my trap card: Psi Storm!"
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On April 08 2010 05:38 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
"I summon twelve hydralisks to the field!"
"Ah-hah! You've activated my trap card: Psi Storm!"
"Wait, did you just summon fifteen ultralisks onto the map on the same turn?"
"Yeah, so?"
"That's against the rules, isn't it?"
"SCREW THE RULES, I HAVE MONEY!"
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On April 08 2010 05:24 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 01:41 FSP.Siggy wrote:
Which card game is that? It doesn't look like the pokemon-based progamer tcg, which is the only other one I've seen. are you talking about the ones right above your post? that's magic:the gathering + Show Spoiler +
Wait, those are ACTUAL mtg cards? I assumed they were just mockups or something someone made for a magic-based game!
On April 08 2010 05:35 Thratur wrote:
I love your game and played a few games, but the summoning rule was confusing at first. I would give a few examples for each combination like XK, or 2RQ, etc.
Keep up the good work!
Thanks! It's good to hear that you like it! Actually, I've had some comments from others on that same issue, so some pretty pictures of example units are definitely on the to-do list for the next "patch". I actually played a game online against someone from the battle.net forums and spent a good deal of time explaining the way units combine. It's way easier in a one-on-one where you can make sure everything makes sense in real time.
But, it case anyone has this question before I update the pdf, here are a few examples:
Red jack + black king = XJ
Red queen + red king = 2RQ
Black jack + black queen = 2BJ
EDIT: One quick question for you, have you played enough games to come across anything that seems imbalanced or anything? I want this game to be as balanced as possible, despite the inherent random factor of a deck of cards.
On April 08 2010 05:42 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 05:38 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
"I summon twelve hydralisks to the field!"
"Ah-hah! You've activated my trap card: Psi Storm!" "Wait, did you just summon fifteen ultralisks onto the map on the same turn?" "Yeah, so?" "That's against the rules, isn't it?" "SCREW THE RULES, I HAVE MONEY!"
"I have two Archons! MIND CRUSH!"
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I did not play enough games correctly yet to point out any imbalances (we made a lot of mistakes with summoning before we understood it correctly), but I felt like most spells that require a zerg non-attacking unit (defiler, queen), felt completely useless for the effort of summoning this unit. Buffing these spells could make these units a lot more interesting. I probably just don't know the game in depth enough to tell, though, so I may be babbling nonsense.
I'll tell you more once I played a few more games (probably in a week).
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It looks interesting, Im gonna try it this weekend with some friends!
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On April 08 2010 06:38 Thratur wrote:
I did not play enough games correctly yet to point out any imbalances (we made a lot of mistakes with summoning before we understood it correctly), but I felt like most spells that require a zerg non-attacking unit (defiler, queen), felt completely useless for the effort of summoning this unit. Buffing these spells could make these units a lot more interesting. I probably just don't know the game in depth enough to tell, though, so I may be babbling nonsense.
I'll tell you more once I played a few more games (probably in a week).
Alright! Sorry for the confusing rules!
As for the spells, they are rather situational. Of the four spells for defiler and queen, the one that I am most satisfied with has been Dark Swarm, because in tandem with an overlord, it lets you set up a very solid defense. The queen's infest is handy in the case that it comes up. Ensnare and Plague, in my personal experience, don't come up very often, as fortification seems much less used than it was back in the original Mercenary days, but if you do get a good use out of them, they can be devastating.
So you're not crazy for finding them a little weak; I'll think about things that can be done with them.
On April 08 2010 06:46 wolfy4033 wrote:
It looks interesting, Im gonna try it this weekend with some friends!
Glad to hear! Be sure to post back and let me know how it goes!
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Uhm, Im not quite sure what this "Summon cost" is tho. I understand that it's how much the units cost, but.. in what way do I "pay" for it? Lets say I want to summon a Siege Tank, summon cost is 1. What does that mean? :O
EDIT: Nevermind, it seems I just missed that sentence that explained it -_-
I've read through the rules and it does look lie an awesome game, good job!
EDIT2: Got another question. XQ is used to summon a wraith for the terran. In the manual there's an example of a black king and a red queen, but does it work with one black queen and one red queen aswell? XQ only mean that you need 2 card with different colors and a queen being the lowest one?
ANother question. Lets say me and my opponent both play Terran and we both have a marine summoned. His marine has 14 hp thanks to him fortifying it, and I've added 2 damage to my rine.I attack him and he end up with just 2 hp left, I guess? Is there some ingenius way to keep track of how much hp the units have left, or we just gotta remember it all?
Excuse me if it's that obvious, I just want to make sure :D
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On April 08 2010 07:12 wolfy4033 wrote:
Uhm, Im not quite sure what this "Summon cost" is tho. I understand that it's how much the units cost, but.. in what way do I "pay" for it? Lets say I want to summon a Siege Tank, summon cost is 1. What does that mean? :O
EDIT: Nevermind, it seems I just missed that sentence that explained it -_-
I've read through the rules and it does look lie an awesome game, good job!
EDIT2: Got another question. XQ is used to summon a wraith for the terran. In the manual there's an example of a black king and a red queen, but does it work with one black queen and one red queen aswell? XQ only mean that you need 2 card with different colors and a queen being the lowest one?
ANother question. Lets say me and my opponent both play Terran and we both have a marine summoned. His marine has 14 hp thanks to him fortifying it, and I've added 2 damage to my rine.I attack him and he end up with just 2 hp left, I guess? Is there some ingenius way to keep track of how much hp the units have left, or we just gotta remember it all?
Excuse me if it's that obvious, I just want to make sure :D
You found the answer to your first question, but I'll post it anyways in case someone else has the same issue. A summon cost is "paid" by discarding other cards from your hand, so to pay your Siege Tank's summon cost of 1, you simply need to discard one other card from your hand.
Second, yes, you found the answer again. XQ is used to represent any combination of unit cards where there is one red and one black, and the lowest rank is a queen. So that would mean a red quen & black queen, a red queen & black king, and a red king & black queen would all give XQ.
Finally, no, you don't have to remember it all, because the game operates on an all-or-nothing attack system. In your example, with 12 damage against a 14 health marine, your attack would simply have no effect.
In other news, I spent my entire work shift thinking about the problems surrounding the various fortification-modifying spells, and I think I've worked out a solution that I'll test out and implement in the next patch.
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Ah, thanks for clearing that up! Looking forward to playing it!
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On April 08 2010 19:42 wolfy4033 wrote:
Ah, thanks for clearing that up! Looking forward to playing it!
No problem! I'll be sure to add those to an FAQ in the next "patch"! I hope you'll post back with how the game goes for you!
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http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?lnyjzy3jgjz
+ Show Spoiler +1.02
General:
- Arms Race: New draw mechanic. When drawing, if you fortified a unit on your last turn, and your opponent did NOT fortify a unit on his last turn, draw an extra card.
- Attack Tech: New end-turn mechanic. If your opponent has no units, and your damage is greater than zero, but not enough to kill your opponent, discard one card from each of his tech piles.
Buffs:
Terran:
Zerg: - Creep Colonies may now have unit cards added to them to give them an attack. Adding a black unit card morphs the Creep Colony into a Sunken Colony (30:25), and a red unit morphs it into a Spore Colony (30:35). Sunken Colonies deal no damage to flying units, and spore colonies ONLY deal damage to flying units. Both Sunken and Spore Colonies still give the extra draw associated with the Creep Colony.
Protoss: - Photon Cannon must now be destroyed before units behind it may be attacked.
Nerfs:
Terran:
Zerg: - Zergling Rush may now only be performed at the end of the turn, as an option similar to attacking or scouting.
Protoss:
Hi all, back again with another patch! At the moment, I'm calling this one a "beta", because I haven't personally had time to test the new features (which are in the spoiler tag, btw), but given the mechanics of the game, I feel things will be much better. Once I (and hopefully you!) get a chance to test everything out and see how it works, I will update the pdf to a full version and include that FAQ I've been promising.
The motivation for the arms race mechanic was the issue mentioned earlier in the thread about how several spells, notably Ensnare and Plague and likely the Terran and Protoss spells whose effects modify fortified health and damage, seem anywhere from underpowered to entirely useless. Rather than tweak the spells, it made more sense to alter the way fortifying works, because it is simply less preferable than a lot of options. By including an extra draw for fortifications, the cost of strengthening your units is drastically reduced, but to keep it from being OP, there is also a way for your opponent to counter it. I believe this will lead to more aggressive play overall, as well as enhanced utility for the mentioned spells.
The "attack tech" mechanic also has aggression as a motivating factor, and it is intended to force players into doing something other than going straight into tech mode first turn.
The Sunken and Spore Colonies, as well as the Photon Cannon buff are all intended to make defense a little more viable for races other than Terran, and this may require a Photon Cannon health nerf, but this needs testing.
Patch 1.03 is going to be centered around Protoss gaining shields (finally) as a further boost to their defensive capabilities and will likely include reworkings of the EMP and Shield Battery spells. I meant to include this in 1.02 originally, but the idea kept spiralling and quickly became too big to include with the rest of 1.02, especially given 1.02 hasn't been tested yet.
I hope everyone enjoys the new features and can let me know how they work out for them!
EDIT: (I'm still new here, is there any way to update the thread title to reflect the current version?)
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I loooove your patch. I am very happy with the new mechanics, and the defense buffs. I'll have to play to tell you how much I like it, though.
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Alright! Me and a friends played a couple of games yesterday and, I gotta say, it was alot of fun! We're both very much into strategy and card games and this is prolly one of the most fun games we've played in a long time!
I'd love to play online if we could find somewhere to do it :o
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Thank you both for the positive responses! Knowing people are enjoying it makes it really easy to keep trying to fix things/add features in order to make the game as good as it can be!
As for playing online, I have details somewhere in the thread about downloading and installing a program called VirtualDeck, which can be used to play this game faairly well. There are a couple things that are issues with the way VirtualDeck works, namely scouting, but overall it works.
Unfortunately, as this is the end of the semester, I've got a bunch of stuff to do over the next couple days, after which I will be firing up the server again to play with anyone interested!
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Apologies for the double post, just wanted to thank those of you who have continued to download the rules. It makes me so happy to know that there are people showing interest in my silly little game-based-on-a-classic.
The semester is almost over, at which point I will be able to more actively test and improve the game. I also promised a gameplay video a while back. We DID record the night we had planned, but unfortunately my cats decided the camera was super cool and that sitting on all the units spread out on the floor. Then of course end-of-semester hell began, and we haven't had a chance to try recording again.
We also had a thought to stream a few games live, would anyone be interested in watching that?
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Hi,
Thanks for the game first, I'm not sure if you used existing rules from similar games and remake in SC fashion, but it was quite a sensation for me and my friends to play poker cards in this way.
I played around 10 games with two friends and let me point out some balancing issues.
1. Larva.
Zerg only requires 1 red unit card to pull out 2 units card next turn. This seriously requires a change.
i.e. 1 larva can pull out 1 red unit card + another unit card, pulling larva out again.
After mid game Zergs just have to wait for two 10s, (or use weapon/def upg to retrieve 10s)
then he can pull out two red queens from the discard pile, infest the front unit of the opp.
combine all attk, including the infested one to kill opp. unit on single turn.
Zerg virtually requires 2 red and/or black to pull out any units.
As long as this larva ablity exist you might as well make all other zerg unit as 2 red and/or black too.
You may argue that larva can be easily destoryed but that's not quite possible because of the battle system.
Zerg has ablity to spawn two units. Unless opp. has splash unit (of which, terran does not have apart from nuke),
he just spawns larva and then zergling, sacrificing zergling from his attack in that turn.
The whole point of tech. is to have better unit composition and more cards than the opp.
and this larva ablity overwhelms tech.inng in terms of receiving unit cards (he can virtually pull out every unit after midgame)
and its much much easier to recover the original investment.
None of the zerg players in our games ever used tech.
2. Tech penalty.
No players ever bothered to reach 3rd tech lv. Because the penalty was way too harsh.
(also vs Z there isnt much point of going higher tech due to zergling rush.)
Even in the second tech. The number of turns you could attack opp. is seriously restricted.
To attack without waiting another turn by leaving 2nd tech, it requires two cards from each tech pile and two from your hands. (losing 6 cards)
You only gain 1 card on your hand per turn unless opp. does not fortify.
Thus you are restricted to attack every 2 turns otherwise you do not have two cards on your hand.
Most Zergs again, started to use larva when opp. went 2nd tech. Forcing the opp. to sacrifice 6 cards immediately (or Z gains any units)
or Z also waited until Opp. used up his cards -> less than two cards -> cannot attack -> larva on that turn -> Gain any zerg unit by single red unit card.
Also personally I found returning tech mode costs too much. It just takes too long to recover the cost of tech mode.
Especially if you leave a tech mode once, and want to return, you are required to pay 2nd/3rd tech level costs for 1 tech pile.
The game should be altered so that even if you return to the tech mode, you only pay 1st tech level cost.
3. Limit on fortification on a single turn.
You should limit no. of fortification you can use on a single turn, around 4 attack and 4 damg per turn?
once you leave tech mode, and next turn you bombard fortification on your units and attk opp.
There is no strategy in there, but pure luck. Assuming two players are in a balanced situation,
if 1 player leave the tech, the other person is forced to leave the tech. next turn too and fortify/gain unit to prevent opp. attack.
At this point it's all out how many attk/def points you gained from your tech pile.
4. Lack of splash units.
Please consider putting more splash units esp. terran, for e.g. firebat.
Once zerg uses larva sacrifying 1 unit as mentioned above, T has no means to attack larva directly apart from using nuke. (cost extremely inefficient and requires a ghost)
Or, having two separate army could be possible, so that you can attack twice in 1 turn.
i.e. 00000000000000 - hold front applying to two separate armies.
1111111//22222
111 // 222
with this you can choose to attack with the standard method (sum up all attk of both armies), or half each, enabling you to attack enemy unit twice.
Without holdfront, the enemy can choose one of the frontal unit from 1 or 2 to attack.
5. Removal of MC and Infest, adding ensnare/plague type spell on other races.
There is no easy mean to stop MC and Infestation, you get double the dmg since you lose your frontal unit and enmey gains that same unit to attack you.
Nuke isn't just strong enough like these two in the end game when you start to have high defence bonus.
Also adding fortification removal spell would help to finish game quicker and add more dynamic to it.
Overall, lots of good ideas in this game, but should be altered accrodingly for balance.
We also felt its extremly hard to end game if you are P or T and opp. just add massive def. bonus and camp all the time.
4Q and 2 same colour with same simbol units hardly appeared in any games, most of the time P involved zealot, T rines medic, wraith, Z ling, larva.
Discarding 1 card for supply depot that exist for 1 turn only were too expensive.
and there is few parts I did not fully understand in the instruction, can you enlighten me please?
A. How does upgrading attk or def along discarding tech cost works.
On the same turn, if I upgrade tech level and use weapon/def. upg spell. Can I retrieve unit cards from the discard pile in a similar fashion to performing the quick tech?
B. Is battle like YU-GI-OH style?
Thats how we played, we were only allowed to attack when attacker has greater or equal to attk. to defender unit hp.
Again, thanks for the game.
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Sieged_medic. Thank you so much for your reply, I greatly appreciate the external perspective on the balance of the game I'm going to assume you were playing the new 1.02b rules?
For your first comment, the rules are based on another card game of mine, Mercenary, which I mention in the rules. Mercenary itself originally had influences in Yu-Gi-Oh and probably some influence from Pokemon, but the rest is all me.
1) Larvae are designed essentially to BE zerg's tech. Zerg are only given regular tech options as a desperation move. I am aware of the situation you describe, where zerg can build up an insurmountable force through repeated use of larvae. I've been mulling around ideas to nerf larvae for a while now, and your input has cemented my decision to drop the nerfbat on them. I like the idea of them giving two unit cards, but I'll be removing the element of choice from them, as that is where the problem fundamentally lies.
2) Tech mode wasn't ORIGINALLY designed with the ability to go multiple layers deep, but after playing with it a few times, I figured I may as well add in the option. It's usually pretty crazy to try to go into high-level tech mode for any extended period of time, just like in sc:bw it's crazy to do nothing but build expansions, sure your economy will boom, but you're totally vulnerable to attack. As a side note, either you're interpreting the tech penalties incorrectly, or I wrote them in an unclear way, but in level 2 tech mode, your TOTAL cost to attack is one card from each tech pile and two from your hand (4 cards). My apologies if that was due to unclear wording, but the cost is always just one card from each tech pile AND one card from your hand per tech pile. Hrm, I see how that can be confusing. Just remember that you only ever lose one card from each tech pile. I'll clarify that a bit better next update!
As for the ever-increasing cost of tech mode, well, that's just so that you don't rely only on it, and it forces you to decide the best time to enter tech mode. It's not something I'm likely to change right now, but maybe after more testing.
3) This is probably my favourite point you brought up, because it's not something I've EVER encountered. Typically, in the games I've played, fortifications have never been an issue, especially not after tech mode, when usually everything is reinvested into quick techs. I'll look into it, but yes, some limit to fortifications per turn sounds like a good solution to this. (Funny though, because I was just looking into ways to get MORE fortifications out...)
4) The lack of splash on units was originally in order to make the lurker more "special". As for your specific concern of terran vs. larvae, tanks can use their range to attack a larva that is in the second position. Alternately, flings or other spells can be used on the frontmost unit before launching an attack on the larva. There ARE options, but I may look into adding splash to a few other units.
I've actually considered something along the lines of adding a secondary unit line, but I don't think I want to include that just yet. It has its uses, yes, but it would require a bunch of other tweaking.
5) I'm not going to remove MC and Infest, just fix them. They're supposed to have a clause that states that the controlled/infested unit may not attack the turn it's taken, but for some reason that didn't make it into the pdf :S I'll fix that. As for the nuke, maybe I'll have to remove the ghost kill, or add damage or something to make it more useful. I'll think about it!
I'm curious as to why your games had so few same-colour units, as those tend to be the more interesting ones. Archons are meant to be rare, which is why they're so strong! The supply depot wall can hold much more than one card, and the cost is only applied once-per-turn, so if you had enough cards, you could discard one and dump your hand into the wall and make it like 150 health. Then you'd be broke. But after your fortification concern, I may need to limit supply depot wall per-turn as well. The discard cost on the walls is there strictly to keep a player from stalling infinitely, btw.
A) Ah, yes, I suppose this is never super clear, I'm starting to get embarassed by how vague I've been For these spells, say you're Protoss (10:20:25). Let's say you use a pair of 4s to cast Upgrade Shield. If you discard, in addition to the 4s, numbers adding to 20, say two sixes and an 8, you may take a red queen from the discard instead of the two numbers the spell normally gives. So the spell cast decides the colour, and the tech cost discarded IN ADDITION to the spell cost decides the rank of the unit.
B) Yes, battle is Yu-Gi-Oh-like all-or-nothing.
Again, thanks for the detailed response, and thanks for playing!
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Thanks,
This game(we used 1.02b) was really popular among my friends,
so likely I can play more games in near future and give you more feedbacks.
Next games I will try with possible 'game patches' you mentioned above:
1. Nerfed larvae -> two units cards from discarded pile, without selection.
looks good to me, when I play the game we will try choosing the first two//or last two, or perhaps pulling same rank or the larva card you used.
i.e. Red king larva produces first king of any colour then any following unit card of any colour from the discard pile. If in a case of any king not existing in the pile -> first two unit cards.
We also really liked the zerg ability to spawn 2 units.
2. While entering battle with tech mode. removing 1 card from each tech pile, and 1 per tech level from players hand.
3. Maximum of x cards fortifying attack and def. on a single unit per turn. We will try 4 then 2.
I see we played in a somewhat different fashion, our main strategy was to either gain more cards then opp. / force opp. to lose more cards.
I think you already put in best way to get more fortifications out. Since if enemy fortifies and if you do not, then opp. receives additional card next turn.
We were nearly forced to fortify every turn until we ran out of any number cards.
So in our games, players no, of cards stayed very low. Almost the only way of gaining a card was by having a tech pile, and once you break the pile,
it was difficult to afford the cost to return back to the tech mode.
Funny thing is we hardly used any quick tech,
we noticed that quick teching is expensive and hard to protect new one unless you have transport or decent pseudo-units.
Further, Once a player discard 10~40 number cards for quick tech, most opp. used around same no. of card foritying his existing unit and attacked next turn.
Oh because of this, I believe making discard pile faced down can add more strategy into the game.
I might also try when a player uses an ablity to pull any cards from the discarded pile, only that player may look into the pile. (Requires trustworthy players or 3rd person dealer :D)
4. Ghost does not die after he nukes. After MC/or Infest the player ends his turn.
Also how about:
A) Adding nuke extra dmg equals 50% of total opp. attk/def fortification?
B) Can only MC/Infest a unit for y turns. (might try y=3)
A) Ah, yes, I suppose this is never super clear, I'm starting to get embarassed by how vague I've been For these spells, say you're Protoss (10:20:25). Let's say you use a pair of 4s to cast Upgrade Shield. If you discard, in addition to the 4s, numbers adding to 20, say two sixes and an 8, you may take a red queen from the discard instead of the two numbers the spell normally gives. So the spell cast decides the colour, and the tech cost discarded IN ADDITION to the spell cost decides the rank of the unit.
I thought If you upg. weapons without tech cost, ie. pair 4s only, then you only get a single dmg card not two?
If upg weapon + appropriate tech cost, weapons upg. gives black colur and if tech costs 1v1:lv2:lv3, then following ranks are lv1 = J, lv2 = Q, lv3 = K?
Btw, how come you use larvae in here but not in the pdf file? :p
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1) An alternate version would be to simply treat larvae as two quick techs and take units from the draw pile. Try either, try both, I've no time for testing for a few days still.
I'm not so sure about the rank of the larva playing into it though. By all means, give it a shot, but something seems weird about it.
2) This is how it was intended initially; is the issue with the way it is written in the rules?
3) Those sound good for test values. I find it really interesting that you played in such a different manner, and it's nice to have some feedback on the "arms race" concept, as it is new with 1.02b and I haven't tested it personally at all yet. The situation you described suggests it might almost be TOO much. I showed off your response to my friend who has helped me test thus far and he was taken aback by the amount of fortification you said occurs in your game. His exact words, referring to dumping cards as fortifications after tech mode were, "that's such an all-in though!" And it is. The fact that it's an all-in is probably why you felt re-entering tech mode was so costly; that first tech mode isn't meant to be spent in one fell swoop, otherwise you'll be so broke if your plan fails. I haven't tested 1.02b yet, so maybe this is different now.
Sometimes, it may be worth holding onto your numbers and letting your opponent just get the arms race draw. That way you'll have more available spells and could in theory just plague away his advantage, for example.
As for facedown discard, the faceup one has existed since the beginning, and a lot of the strategy in mercenary involved using cards from it to chain together spells. Now, this is NOT mercenary, so it's not meant to play the same way, but it just feels wrong to me to have the discard face down.
4) I'm still really iffy on the ghost dying with nukes, as there is already a mechanism to save them. I wouldn't necessarily say that MC/Infest should cause an immediate end-of-turn, just that "Attack" is not an option for your end-of-turn, like if you had broken tech.
A) Not sure quite what you mean here, but the concept of nuke's damage scaling with opponent power (which is what I believe you're getting at) sounds like a good idea.
B) I don't like this change quite so much, either. Neither of these spells (MC in particular) are really that easy to pull off, so having their duration limited cheapens them too much in my eyes.
Yes, my bad, 3s and 4s only give you one card, I was confusing them with Consume (it was late, was working on a report!). And yes, your explanation is exactly correct.
Thanks for the continued support. I'd actually be interested in playing a game or two over virtualdeck if you or one of your friends were up for it. It'll have to be at least next week, but it would be neat to play against someone with a different perspective on the game.
EDIT: "Larvae" is just the plural. Are there no instances in the rules? Weird!
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Hi,
We played few more games with the changes below:
1. Nerfed larvae - bottom two unit cards from the face-down discarded deck.
If no unit cards exists, Z wastes a larvae.
2. 2 fortifications - either atk/def per unit per turn.
3. Discarded pile faced down.
4. Ghost does not die after nuke.
5. Infest, MC only works on a unit for 3 turns.
These made quite a few changes to the strategies we use in the game, and we believe it made somewhat positive changes towards the game.
Larvae wastage was added during our play against zerg to prevent zerg having massive army early in the game, (same goes with quick tech, weapons upg + tech costs) and to add more strategical usages of discarded pile. When player uses a spell to pull a cards from discarded pile, only that player was allowed to look into it.
We were settled with two fortifications/unit/turn, this was clearly a lot better than 4 fortifications, and we started to use more quick-techs instead.
PvT seems very difficult for T; T units do not have high HP, hence most of the time, T is forced to put depots until a vessel is out and unfortunately, even tech cost for T is higher than P,
so P usually gets better unit composition before T gets any sustainable defences.
Especially when an enemy starts to have either dragoon/or splash unit, it becomes even harder.
We noticed that T is more-or-less lost once he loses frontal heavy defended unit, (and goon ignores this unit)
Further, T has no means to block high templar psionic strom, and it usually kills more than 1 units due to the amount of the HP present in units, therefore, P casting psionic storm killing frontal units, then following full-scale attack was extremely deadly.
Consider:
1. Making T tech cost identical to P, (15:20:25) and add more hp to some units.
2. Trap ablity to EMP, i.e. if used against enemy spell, the spell does no action at all, and the enemy player still loses that card, Emp requires either Ghost or Vessel.
3. More restrictions to Recall ability i.e. cannot recover any same number cards (Or even reduce to recover ONE card from the discarded deck, making total no. of cards 3, like T or Z), when P has an Abiter and HT/Archon, P starts to use heavy stormage/MC by using combinations of weapons/def upg and recalls. Conventional recall allows 1 storm/MC immediatly upon casting for the next turn.
4. lowering middle and the highest tech cost of zerg by 5, making 20-25-30.
5. Putting more than 2 creep colonies does not increase any extra card intake per turn.
6. Storm cannot target player directly. Storm/nuke/any splash dmg. left over after killing all units do not dmg. player health.
Few questions:
1. Does supply depot, creep colonies, cannons, battery count as a unit?
I.e. whether they have any scouting rate, if opp. have a range unit, can the unit attack my unit behind depot?
2. Can burrow used on a creep colony? (Pulling cards back, and a unit card attached to make sunk.) While we played we let Z to pull creep back, but loses any attached unit card and two extra cards from his hands.
3. If a player has a transportation unit, is he allowed to switch units more than once per turn?
4. Can any number of scarabs be added after Reaver in the same turn?
Most of our P strategy was that, after discarding a tech pile, we add small dmg. unit + small fortification and end that turn. After that turn, P puts in Reaver + every single possible scarab unit cards possible (+ quick tech on that turn + every black unit cards the player quick tech, and saved each turn) and finishes opp. on that turn.
Perhaps this is a possible change you might consider too.
5. Assume there exists a lurker with a burrow upg. and a hydralisk -> 90 dmg and let opp. has 1 rine (10), 1 dropship(60) and another rine(10).
How does this work?
Lurker has a splash attack but it does not dmg against air units, so does any dmg left over after rine dies go to next available ground unit? or lurker does no dmg. to the dropship but only hydralisk (Rine at the far back survives)? I prefer 2nd option.
6. How does a vulture mine work? If enemy has a creep colony, mutalisk, and guardians (having 30HP each), Can T player choose what to kill? and if a creep colony/cannon/shield battery/depot has the lowest heath point, does this die instead? And what happens to the total dmg. of the enemy units? During our trial we neglected that traped unit's dmg.
We are entering our exam soon, so we won't be able to play more games until end of the may.
But I will try to keep in touch every while :D See you then.
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Hey all, Just popping my head in to introduce myself. I'm mofo, the other half of the Mercenary team at Flaming Snail Productions. I'll be putting out video updates for mercenary sometime soon, probably after Siggy and I finish our exams.
Also, big thanks to everyone giving us feedback. It's great to see so many different playstyles emerging! I normally play Protoss and just tech like mad, rather than opting for some of the more potent spells, due to my familiarity with the original mercenary. I'll make sure to switch things up next round of testing to see if we can't replicate some of these issues.
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Okay, sorry for the super slow response, between exams and coming across a beta key, I haven't had much chance to focus on the card game.
Anyways, on to your tests with those changes. I'm still not sure how I feel about the discard being facedown. The concept of wasting a larva has definitely crossed my mind, but I'm not sure I like it. I'm still more of the mind that larva need to be nerfed indirectly, i.e. some sort of method where they can be killed off easier. I'll have to test things out before I can say for certain though.
Limited fortifications sound like they worked well, though the artificial limit still seems, well, artificial. Dumping your hand into fortifications to get a good kill in is definitely viable, but extremely expensive. With the card cost associated, I'm not sure it NEEDS a limit. I feel a better solution would be to alter things in such a way that you can prevent your opponent from getting that many cards to begin with, hence the addition of the "attack tech". Perhaps scouting could obtain some sort of buff to allow attacks on hands. Maybe. I will think about it and run some tests.
Regarding TvP, bunkers are your friends. All of the issues (range, psi storm) are negated by bunkers. And when you combine bunkers with remobilize, your terran forces are extremely adaptable to the situation. The bunker GUARANTEES you a one-turn buffer during which you can counterattack, hell, I might even say it's overpowered in that sense. Of course, once it falls you have some serious work to do to take down whatever killed it, but ideally you've built something up behind that wall.
Okay, now for your considerations:
1) I am pretty dead set on the tech costs, but I might consider some terran health buffs. Maybe.
2) That's actually a really awesome idea for EMP, but it's sticking with just the vessel, this isn't SC2 (yet!)
3) I didn't think Recall was THAT strong, I'll test it more and maybe nerf it a bit if it seems off.
4) See 1
5) Creep colonies are fragile and have no defenses of their own. They might get a health nerf, but I'm not going to put artificial limits on their power.
6) This is already the case. I'll make it more obvious in the rules
And question time!
1) All units and pseudo-units count as a unit in terms of scouting and will lower the opponent's scout rating by 1 (unless otherwise specified).
2) Burrow does not affect any Zerg pseudo-units at all.
3) Transportation abilities are strictly once-per-turn.
4) Scarabs are unlimited summon. Reavers with many scarabs are extremely expensive units, and are likewise extremely powerful in the right situations.
5) An air unit up front causes the lurker's damage to be reduced to zero, so there is no "extra" to carry through. If the lurker kills a marine up front, the leftover is wasted as soon as it hits the dropship.
6) I hadn't considered the case of a tie in health, but I'm going to declare it to be the frontmost of the tied-health units. The damage of the attack becomes the value AFTER the unit is killed.
Thank you again for your extensive feedback, Sieged_medic. I'll be sure to update the rules to clarify everything you've mentioned, and I'll have to try some of your changes out to see how they work. There will be a new version at sooome point, but I'm not sure exactly when.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m60/ForLorNCrimsonShadow/koreanmilitaryservicewrix9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m60/ForLorNCrimsonShadow/saviorgmfr0vi8.jpg)
