• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 15:24
CEST 21:24
KST 04:24
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7
Community News
Weekly Cups (August 10-16): SHIN doubles2GSTL Returns in 2026!45Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-2212Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0
StarCraft 2
General
GSTL Returns in 2026! SC4ALL II: SC2 Player Announcement 6/8 - Maru Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Serral wins Maestros of the Game 2 Weekly Cups (August 10-16): SHIN doubles
Tourneys
2026 GSTL Announcement Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) WardiTV Mondays 2026 KungFu Cup Announcement
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome Mutation # 538 Media Blackout Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion [ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ How Famous was FlaSh before his Debut? Are you ready for ASL 22? NEW HYPE VIDEO
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3 [ASL22] Ro24 Group C
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Any training maps people recommend? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Dating: How's your luck? Artificial Intelligence Thread The Letting Off Steam Thread
Fan Clubs
The Creator Fan Club MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently...
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Young Players Exit Esports E…
TrAiDoS
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 6064 users

The Ten Dragons - Page 6

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 4 5 6 7 8 16 Next All
Count9
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
China10928 Posts
January 09 2010 05:38 GMT
#101
Oh the luls; too good.
dukethegold
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada5645 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-09 05:56:49
January 09 2010 05:46 GMT
#102
Hahaha, nice work. That was a pretty good read. Was the PvZ imbalance resting only on around 53% before Bisu revolutionized the entire system? Because that sound pretty balanced to me. And what's the stats after Bisu's revolution?

Anyhow, the 6 Dragons are really just 6 Protoss players that hit their peak at the same time, causing a reign of Protoss dominance, empowered by the anti-Zerg Bisu build and Stork's PvT innovations. Favorable maps certainly helped a lot too. Carriers were still imba abuse against Terran back then. There was no real requirement or anything. Much would have made into the 6 Dragon rank as well if you were looking for the requirements that you listed. It's just that Much fell from his peak when the 6 Dragons hit theirs.

Hell, even to this day, we are not sure what the requirements for a "bonjwa" is. 3 MSL and 1 OSL? What about Boxer? And why do OSL count more than MSL when technically, MSL system is actually more difficult for newcomers?

All the requirements are pretty lolz worthy. You set the requirements in such a way that all former Protoss dragons except Bisu plus some extras would get included into your top 10 Protoss list, without giving sufficient backing as to why those requirements are set. The 100% win in Proleague ACE one really cracked me up. If any Dragon should be slain, it's Free. Guemchi or Stats beating Bisu in a BO series? Oh please.

Good read before bed time.
StuDToSs
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
116 Posts
January 09 2010 05:53 GMT
#103
They should have something like that for zerg and terran like the 6 Tyrants for zerg or the 3 musketeers for terran or something like that.
dukethegold
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada5645 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-09 05:59:29
January 09 2010 05:59 GMT
#104
On January 09 2010 14:53 StuDToSs wrote:
They should have something like that for zerg and terran like the 6 Tyrants for zerg or the 3 musketeers for terran or something like that.


The only "racial group" that I know of is the Three Kings, which consisted of Nal_ra, Kingdom and Reach, the three Protoss players.

The reason behind that is that they were the only Protoss players that are worth anything for quite a long period of time...
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
January 09 2010 05:59 GMT
#105
On January 09 2010 13:11 fearus wrote:
roffles basically made up a set of criterias himself to determine the best protoss players around and to excluded bisu from the list..

yes, he deliberately excluded bisu..

because without excluding bisu....it wouldnt have been worth posting nor would any1 actually read it and care

Nah, people would care if he excluded Stork. It just would have been a much more obvious troll.
Moderator
dukethegold
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada5645 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-09 06:04:07
January 09 2010 06:02 GMT
#106
On January 09 2010 14:59 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2010 13:11 fearus wrote:
roffles basically made up a set of criterias himself to determine the best protoss players around and to excluded bisu from the list..

yes, he deliberately excluded bisu..

because without excluding bisu....it wouldnt have been worth posting nor would any1 actually read it and care

Nah, people would care if he excluded Stork. It just would have been a much more obvious troll.


I think you underestimated the difference between Bisu fanboy and Stork fanboy. Just check out the sheer number of SKT fans and you would realize why Bisu is excluded.

If he excluded Stork somehow, which is pretty impossible since Stork is clearly playing S-class, that would be super obvious troll and this thread would get lols. Nobody will actually try to put up an argument as to why Stork should be Dragon, cuz it's pretty obvious. Bisu isn't doing good, a kick on the Bisu fanboys and girls while they are down inspire far greater responses.
numLoCK
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada1416 Posts
January 09 2010 06:02 GMT
#107
On January 09 2010 10:00 Roffles wrote:
Proposal for Dragon Requirements:
Based upon data gathered and regressed (holding all else constant), we have concluded that in order to qualify as a dragon, one:

Must have at least one Round of 16 appearance in either the MSL or OSL
OR
Must have a 100% win percentage in Ace matches in Proleague
OR
Must currently be within 90 points of their ELO peak
OR
Must have a career win % of greater than 65%.

However, just like in ancient Norse mythology, there can only be 10 dragons at a time.


Did ya get these straight from anti-bisu ideals?
Was it like, "Hm, whats a good career winrate limit? What's Bisu at, 64.6%? Minimum 65% then. How about ELO peak. Bisu is what, 94 points below his peak? Lets go 90 points maximum then."
And seriously, 100% winrate in ace matches? A teams top ace player is gonna play quite a few matches, and the more often they are sent out the more likely it is they are gonna lose at least one game.
You've got Guemchi as a dragon. Would you feel safer putting money on guemchi or bisu to win against the same opponent?
Purind
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Canada3562 Posts
January 09 2010 06:06 GMT
#108
On January 09 2010 13:01 Sunyveil wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On January 09 2010 12:57 Hinanawi wrote:
An Advanced Statistical Study of Zerg Rankings:

Abstract:
In the past, uncertainty has gripped the Starcraft community regarding the ranking of Zerg players in terms of performance. A popular ranking system, known as the "Maestro Theory" has exhibited considerable popularity since its inception. Herein I discuss an enhanced player rating system based on random shit that makes players I like look good and players I don't like look bad hard statistics.

Introduction:
With the rise of the forces of Aiur and the rapid decline of the Zerg race, it has become increasingly hard easy to determine whether or not The Maestro has fallen from the high point era now known as 'the era before Bisu raped him'. These changes, sparked by new imbalanced maps for Protoss and Terran, have amplified the fall of the Zerg Race Savior. Not surprisingly, Savior has been suffering mightily at the hands of everyone as of late, constantly missing from Starleagues as of late. The question then may be asked: Which Zerg players constitute the new "Maestros" and shall represent the Zerg race for years to come?

With the aim of casting some light on the current Zerg situation, this article offers an overview of the complexity of ranking Zerg players and considers the diversity of success from various aspects of progaming.

Historical Background:
In the early days of progaming, Zerg players have always experienced hardships when it came to success. We all remember how hilarious sad it was when Yellow always ended up coming up just a little bit short. I dislike Terran players. I dislike Terran players a lot.

However, even with their limited success, Zergs persevered onwards, finally gaining recognition as Savior, the Maestro burst onto the scene and shocked the scrub imba Terrans. Forever changing the way Zergs played against everyone, the Zerg race experienced it's first stint of success, with Savior leading the way.

Why Only 1?:
The volatile matchup of Zerg vs Terran has always been an Achilles Heel for Zerg players. Historically, Terrans have won over 53% of games vs Zerg players, and has generally been considered an easy matchup for Terrans. Mediocre Terrans such as CuteAngel have even been quoted saying, "HAHAHA, MANNER CC IN YOUR MAIN BISU" in the past (and that's not even TvZ). After statistical surveys compiled by Korean netizens, the Maestro (Savior) was selected for his >50% win rates in ZvT awesome hair to be the head of the Zerg race.

Does this theory still hold?:
Fast forward two years and a half later to mid 2009. The era of the Maestro has come and gone. Savior hasn't consistently made it to even the latter stages of Starleagues as of recent, not to mention winning a Starleague. With the Terrans not sucking as much hookers and blow he wasted his prize money on, everyone has been completely dominating the Maestro. Thus, the old Korean statistical survey holds little to no credibility anymore, thus necessitating the need for a new ranking system of Zerg players.

Proposal for Maestro Requirements:
Based upon data gathered and regressed (holding all else constant), we ('we' referring to me and my mum, who I asked for advice on this) have concluded that in order to qualify as a maestro, one:

Must be a somewhat kinda decent Zerg player.
AND
Must not have been born on November 23rd, 1987.

Statistical Analysis :
Therefore from our proposal, we compile a list of Maestros, before and after.

Current "Maestros":
None

New Maestros:
(Z)Jaedong
(Z)Calm
(Z)EffOrt
(Z)Kwanro
(Z)ZerO
(Z)OctZerg

Slain Maestros:
(Z)sAviOr - Violates the second requirement.

Ramifications:
Entirely according to popular belief, Savior is no longer among the best of the Zerg race. With lackluster Proleague results and his disappearance from the latest Starleagues, Savior has fallen from his high and mighty throne. His fall from grace is evident by the fact that he failed to destroy everyone in 2009.

Closing Comments:
The analysis presented in this article may be debated by many people. The first of many arguments that may arise would be the "This is pretty dumb". You've got a point there.

Sources:
* theonion.com


I think this pretty much sums up my thoughts


That OctZerg is atleast the sixth best Zerg player in the world?
Trucy Wright is hot
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
January 09 2010 06:07 GMT
#109
On January 09 2010 15:02 numLoCK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2010 10:00 Roffles wrote:
Proposal for Dragon Requirements:
Based upon data gathered and regressed (holding all else constant), we have concluded that in order to qualify as a dragon, one:

Must have at least one Round of 16 appearance in either the MSL or OSL
OR
Must have a 100% win percentage in Ace matches in Proleague
OR
Must currently be within 90 points of their ELO peak
OR
Must have a career win % of greater than 65%.

However, just like in ancient Norse mythology, there can only be 10 dragons at a time.


Did ya get these straight from anti-bisu ideals?
Was it like, "Hm, whats a good career winrate limit? What's Bisu at, 64.6%? Minimum 65% then. How about ELO peak. Bisu is what, 94 points below his peak? Lets go 90 points maximum then."
And seriously, 100% winrate in ace matches? A teams top ace player is gonna play quite a few matches, and the more often they are sent out the more likely it is they are gonna lose at least one game.
You've got Guemchi as a dragon. Would you feel safer putting money on guemchi or bisu to win against the same opponent?

I've got money on Guemchi against Bisu. He proved it during his run to the MSL Round of 16. Guess who made it to Ro16 in the MSL and who didn't?
God Bless
Kyuukyuu
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada6263 Posts
January 09 2010 06:09 GMT
#110
lol good read
love the serious responses too
Niton
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2395 Posts
January 09 2010 06:14 GMT
#111
On January 09 2010 15:02 numLoCK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2010 10:00 Roffles wrote:
Proposal for Dragon Requirements:
Based upon data gathered and regressed (holding all else constant), we have concluded that in order to qualify as a dragon, one:

Must have at least one Round of 16 appearance in either the MSL or OSL
OR
Must have a 100% win percentage in Ace matches in Proleague
OR
Must currently be within 90 points of their ELO peak
OR
Must have a career win % of greater than 65%.

However, just like in ancient Norse mythology, there can only be 10 dragons at a time.


Did ya get these straight from anti-bisu ideals?
Was it like, "Hm, whats a good career winrate limit? What's Bisu at, 64.6%? Minimum 65% then. How about ELO peak. Bisu is what, 94 points below his peak? Lets go 90 points maximum then."
And seriously, 100% winrate in ace matches? A teams top ace player is gonna play quite a few matches, and the more often they are sent out the more likely it is they are gonna lose at least one game.
You've got Guemchi as a dragon. Would you feel safer putting money on guemchi or bisu to win against the same opponent?


That depends. Is the opponent Bogus?
tree.hugger: Coming off of [(T)fantasy v. (T)Really] into [(T)Barracks v. (T)MVP] is like coming out of Manhattan into New Jersey. You just have to speed up and ignore it.
Whiplash
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States2929 Posts
January 09 2010 06:20 GMT
#112
Bisu is still better then guemchi, in a best of 3 or 5 bisu would dominate him.
Cinematographer / Steadicam Operator. Former Starcraft commentator/player
jalstar
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States8198 Posts
January 09 2010 06:21 GMT
#113
lol guemchi

bisu has been incredibly mediocre recently though
excal
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada166 Posts
January 09 2010 06:40 GMT
#114
Hey let's select certain specific criteria and form a list based on biased data based completely on arbitrary judgment.

I don't think many people honestly believe half that list of people can beat/do better than Bisu in a best of x. Even in a single match up, I'd put my money on Bisu.

I don't think Bisu is performing right now, but even in his current state, I stand by my statement.
ItsBigfoot
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States432 Posts
January 09 2010 06:44 GMT
#115
change one of the requirements to "getting manner CC'd by frozean is an automatic dq"
Kal Fighting!
jalstar
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States8198 Posts
January 09 2010 06:44 GMT
#116
the facts that the op has 5000 posts and that guemchi is on the list make me think that the op is having some fun with us
Noxide
Profile Joined July 2009
United States2870 Posts
January 09 2010 06:52 GMT
#117
If Guemchi is a dragon then I doubt anyone would actually want to be a dragon. Besides the dragons were only hyped because of protoss domination during the day, doesn't actually mean anything and means even less coming from you,
Flash ひなの戦争の王である || しかし、実際にはヤフーの ファンタジーサッカー、楽しいプレー私の週末を占めている
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-09 06:57:14
January 09 2010 06:54 GMT
#118
On January 09 2010 15:21 jalstar wrote:
bisu has been incredibly inconsistent recently though

Fixed.

There's a difference. Guemchi I wouldn't ever bet on being able to win a Bo3 or Bo5 against, say, Stork or Jaedong. Bisu, however, is capable of it on a day that he plays to his best.

Bisu still plays S-class Starcraft on a good day (Bisu v Stork in proleague is an example of that). The fact that those days come less often doesn't mean Bisu's absolute skill has declined, but more that he's psychologically less capable of bringing that to the table as often as he'd like.
Moderator
horang3
Profile Joined November 2009
United States261 Posts
January 09 2010 07:30 GMT
#119
Very interesting read. I'm not sure I agree with anything that makes Guemchi a dragon, though.
Do great work
sporkify
Profile Joined April 2009
United States31 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-07 05:24:18
January 09 2010 07:50 GMT
#120
My elo peak is 0. It is currently 0. Ergo, I am a dragon.

Your standards are pointless. They don't take into account the number of games. If a player played 5 ace matches and won 4, I'd take them more seriously than a player who goes 1-0. The Ro16 doesn't take into account difficulty of opponents. 65% is a number you pulled out of a hat. I believe I have also shown the flaw with using percentage for rankings.

Edited cause I got mixed up with ELO and %.
Prev 1 4 5 6 7 8 16 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 4h 36m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
UpATreeSC 143
MindelVK 24
EmSc Tv 23
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 3988
Mini 169
Soulkey 124
Mong 65
Dewaltoss 38
ajuk12(nOOB) 17
Dota 2
qojqva3317
XBOCT1338
Dendi1052
XaKoH 635
Fuzer 175
XcaliburYe89
League of Legends
Trikslyr54
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King108
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu332
Other Games
fl0m3299
Grubby2405
Liquid`RaSZi1760
FrodaN1030
Beastyqt616
B2W.Neo595
Mlord483
C9.Mang0338
PiGStarcraft240
ArmadaUGS135
Livibee102
RotterdaM97
QueenE52
Organizations
StarCraft 2
angryscii 31
EmSc Tv 23
EmSc2Tv 23
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 84
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV384
League of Legends
• TFBlade1154
Other Games
• imaqtpie1211
• Shiphtur348
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
4h 36m
Escore
14h 36m
PiG Sty Festival
16h 36m
Serral vs Reynor
HeRoMaRinE vs herO
Big Brain Bouts
20h 36m
MaNa vs Kelazhur
Nicoract vs HeRoMaRinE
Serral vs Cure
CranKy Ducklings
1d 14h
PiG Sty Festival
1d 16h
Zoun vs Solar
SHIN vs Maru
Patches Events
1d 20h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
PiG Sty Festival
2 days
The Patches Monday
3 days
[ Show More ]
GSL
4 days
PiGosaur Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-08-19
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 1
RSL Revival: Season 6
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
META DYMY #4
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W8
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.