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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
Rosario 1.4Changes:- Made nat's gas untankable from island expansion (moved island expansion further) - Made some area outside natural unbuildable for Terran imbalance issues + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +
Resources:
Main: 9M2G (Top geyser is 5000, bottom geyser is depleted 500)
Nat: 7M1G
Mineral-only: 5M (1000 each)
Island expo: 7M1G
Center: Random value minerals and gas
Mapmaker's comments:
I wanted to try using a depleted geyser at main. I'm interested in how it may affect gameplay, because players can mine from it (2 gas per round) whenever they feel they need that small extra gas.
Replays from beta-test stage:
- Mech TvZ
- Mech TvZ (another game)
- TvP
- ZvT
Special thanks to:
- Nikoner
- Grobyc
- Mystlord
Dowload link:
- Version 1.2
- Version 1.3
- Version 1.4
- Version 1.4 (obs)
Hoping for lots of feedback and comments!
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
interesting idea, however taking a glance at it the naturals look really really hard to defend as protoss - how do you wanna forge gate/wall there? if so at the very entrance, which is bad cause those cans won't help vs muta/lurker drop at all ~~
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Watched you make it, looks nice.
Looks sort of like ultimatem with different details (ofcourse) and that extra geyser.
Overall i like it.
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The mining rates of depleted geysers is pretty slow. Maybe you could add a low amount of gas (like 300 or 500) to make cool timing pushes possible on this map which rely on taking that couple gas. It would add a bit of depth.
Also, those naturals are really wide. You should reshape the terrain to make the edges more flat so that there isn't room for zerglings to slip past the buildings, as well as tighten them up a bit. Make something like ling-tight 4 or 5 building wall possible.
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Hmm. The islands making the natural cliffable seems like it would make the map really terran favored. Especially because you can conceivably control 3 expansions and the choke to your base with 2-3 siege tanks and 1-2 turrets (Not sure on the choke though, that does look a bit far). I would recommend just making them not islands, which would make it play out a bit like colosseum but with extra gas. (So it would probably be better for zerg).
The depleted gas in main is an interesting idea, though. I think it would favor protoss the most though. (No other race has as powerful of units that are so non-mineral reliant. Arbs/HT/Archons).
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
On November 30 2009 14:15 iNfeRnaL wrote:
interesting idea, however taking a glance at it the naturals look really really hard to defend as protoss - how do you wanna forge gate/wall there? if so at the very entrance, which is bad cause those cans won't help vs muta/lurker drop at all ~~
i tried forge fe, there isn't trouble with the positions, although there may be some lack of space
On November 30 2009 14:16 YPang wrote:
zerg biased 101
for who?
On November 30 2009 14:17 ghermination wrote:
The mining rates of depleted geysers is pretty slow. Maybe you could add a low amount of gas (like 300 or 500) to make cool timing pushes possible on this map which rely on taking that couple gas. It would add a bit of depth.
Also, those naturals are really wide. You should reshape the terrain to make the edges more flat so that there isn't room for zerglings to slip past the buildings, as well as tighten them up a bit. Make something like ling-tight 4 or 5 building wall possible.
Hmm that's interesting. I'll consider it. Also, the nats are ling-tight-wallable (by Terran). For toss I'm not sure.
On November 30 2009 14:19 Nevuk wrote:
Hmm. The islands making the natural cliffable seems like it would make the map really terran favored. Especially because you can conceivably control 3 expansions and the choke to your base with 2-3 siege tanks and 1-2 turrets (Not sure on the choke though, that does look a bit far). I would recommend just making them not islands, which would make it play out a bit like colosseum but with extra gas. (So it would probably be better for zerg).
The depleted gas in main is an interesting idea, though. I think it would favor protoss the most though. (No other race has as powerful of units that are so non-mineral reliant. Arbs/HT/Archons).
Well if you go mech it's very hard for Zergs to engage straight-on with the army, just tried that. I'll upload some replays from the map testing.
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Very interesting... I don't think the extra geyser will affect the gameplay a whole lot, but it will help zerg in the midgame, while they fight for a 4th gas. Does that little min patch on the island expos block the building from being placed there?
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
On November 30 2009 14:22 meeple wrote:
Very interesting... I don't think the extra geyser will affect the gameplay a whole lot, but it will help zerg in the midgame, while they fight for a 4th gas. Does that little min patch on the island expos block the building from being placed there?
yes it does
added some replays
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Kon, you need to release a map pack of all your maps just so I can make sure I didn't miss any.And for the record, I love Shamshel and Fubuki! Keep up the good work!
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On November 30 2009 14:19 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 14:19 Nevuk wrote:
Hmm. The islands making the natural cliffable seems like it would make the map really terran favored. Especially because you can conceivably control 3 expansions and the choke to your base with 2-3 siege tanks and 1-2 turrets (Not sure on the choke though, that does look a bit far). I would recommend just making them not islands, which would make it play out a bit like colosseum but with extra gas. (So it would probably be better for zerg).
The depleted gas in main is an interesting idea, though. I think it would favor protoss the most though. (No other race has as powerful of units that are so non-mineral reliant. Arbs/HT/Archons). Well if you go mech it's very hard for Zergs to engage straight-on with the army, just tried that. I'll upload some replays from the map testing.
I meant really terran favored in TvP, actually. Especially in close positions. Both islands and cliffs above naturals make 1factstar openings so powerful, and pretty much force really fast robo/1base play from P.
In TvZ it wouldn't be quite as bad, but defending a slow push will still be a pain on the map. Cross map it doesn't seem to be a problem at all in either matchup due to the unbuildable middle (it is unbuildable?). Not sure how viable mnm would be.
edit : Also, I think that 9 mineral in main might be a bit much, but I'm no expert on that.
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
middle is mostly unbuildable
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
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weird name, but rly a sweet idea
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On November 30 2009 14:16 YPang wrote:
zerg biased 101
not sure about that, the third gas is either at an island or another main/nat
although i'm not sure how the depleted gas thing affects balance
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Canada5565 Posts
i like the 2 gas in main - sc2 style - even though it is depleted
awesome
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no one else has said it but, im guessing the nat gas is tankable from that island expo?
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
On November 30 2009 14:46 arb wrote:
no one else has said it but, im guessing the nat gas is tankable from that island expo?
yes
and vice versa, island is tankable from main ground
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I still think the middle is somewhat a wasteland and that it wouldn't serve too many purposes. Sort of like Colosseum or HBR's middle for example.
As mentioned before, I don't think the depleted geyser will change gameplay at all really. Boosting it to just a low amount for certain pushes or builds could be nice, and although it is supposed to be a really likable thing for Zerg, you would need 4 drones off minerals to get such a low amount of gas, and -4 drones is quite a bit for a Zerg player since expos are often never as saturated as they should be.
After that I think it's just a matter of possibly rearranging any terrain issues regarding proper walls and such for individual matchups, which is easily fixed without comments/advice needed to be given.
Thanks for credit though ^^
If you want to test more maps in the future or anything just msg.
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Watching those replays, it will be impossible to ever break a meching terran who sits in their base and turtles up to 200/200 , even if the zerg is significantly better. This type of map has worked on ones like say, Colloseum, however, the difference is Colloseum only allows for 3 bases with 3 gas, while this map allows for easy access to 4 bases, and an additional 1/4 gas, which is just enough to allow for sparse use of Vessels, or more plentifully, Valkyries.
I'm not actually sure if the Zerg would have the resources to win even if they took every other base on the map, short of very successful doom drops.
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
On November 30 2009 14:56 Nevuk wrote:
Watching those replays, it will be impossible to ever break a meching terran who sits in their base and turtles up to 200/200 , even if the zerg is significantly better. This type of map has worked on ones like say, Colloseum, however, the difference is Colloseum only allows for 3 bases with 3 gas, while this map allows for easy access to 4 bases, and an additional 1/4 gas, which is just enough to allow for sparse use of Vessels, or more plentifully, Valkyries.
I'm not actually sure if the Zerg would have the resources to win even if they took every other base on the map, short of very successful doom drops.
It wasn't truly tested so it's hard to say for sure, but for now, yes that's the case.
Also, updated to 1.3. Bottom geyser is now 500 instead of depleted.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On November 30 2009 14:19 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 14:15 iNfeRnaL wrote:
interesting idea, however taking a glance at it the naturals look really really hard to defend as protoss - how do you wanna forge gate/wall there? if so at the very entrance, which is bad cause those cans won't help vs muta/lurker drop at all ~~ i tried forge fe, there isn't trouble with the positions, although there may be some lack of space.
You missunderstood me I think.
Sure you can forge gate fe but its still like space of one gate left... which means about ~6-7 probes needed in order to block this vs a ling runby => hello 9 pool speed, need 3 cans before nex + half of your eco blocking that choke = ROFL.
Also the chokepoint is too far away of the actual nexus position which would - as I already stated - require about ~5-6 cannons to be save vs mutalisks cause those two at the choke are miles away to even cover cannons at your nexus (which choke cannons usually do)
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
On November 30 2009 15:12 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 14:19 konadora wrote:On November 30 2009 14:15 iNfeRnaL wrote:
interesting idea, however taking a glance at it the naturals look really really hard to defend as protoss - how do you wanna forge gate/wall there? if so at the very entrance, which is bad cause those cans won't help vs muta/lurker drop at all ~~ i tried forge fe, there isn't trouble with the positions, although there may be some lack of space. You missunderstood me I think. Sure you can forge gate fe but its still like space of one gate left... which means about ~6-7 probes needed in order to block this vs a ling runby => hello 9 pool speed, need 3 cans before nex + half of your eco blocking that choke = ROFL. Also the chokepoint is too far away of the actual nexus position which would - as I already stated - require about ~5-6 cannons to be save vs mutalisks cause those two at the choke are miles away to even cover cannons at your nexus (which choke cannons usually do)
OH.
Actually, the nats are all wallable with 2 depot 1 rax, so even if you go forge fe with gate wall, there should only be 1 forge space.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Yep I just tested around a bit in MapEdit - theres huge position imbas. bottom right wallin is NOT tight no matter how you place it, some positions need atleast 5 probes (to have them in ONE row to defend vs ling -> 1 probe is sniped very fast and then the rest runs past - means you need 2 extra probe)
Least amount of probes needed to block on a certain position was 4... guess what that means.
Only at one position the wall in cannons would back up nexus anti muta cannons.
Got MSN or so? I saved the placement I did if you want it.
edit: anyway send me a PM if so, gonna go to sleep now so prolly will need a "while" to respond. 
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
btm right wall is not tight as with toss or terran?
With Toss, you can do a forge/gate FE, leaving only 2 grids (which is standard), as well as being able to place cannons that can cover ur mineral line and your wall
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The map looks really good and professional. You have some mad skills, yo.
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On November 30 2009 17:47 Holgerius wrote:
The maps looks really good and professional. You have some mad skills, yo.
Ya, it looks really well done. Tankable gas at nat and unflankable pushes has me concerned, but I would have to play the map before saying its imbalanced.
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Make it so that there are only 4 minerals in the center, but each one is 50 minerals stacked on top of each other, FPME-style.
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I was inspired by the PVT rep and after playing around a bit with my D+ friend on LAN i found that 3 base carrier PVT is VERY strong on this map if you manage to protect your island bases from being tanked. Do you plan on increasing the size of the islands so that the bases can no longer be killed?
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
On November 30 2009 20:26 ghermination wrote:
I was inspired by the PVT rep and after playing around a bit with my D+ friend on LAN i found that 3 base carrier PVT is VERY strong on this map if you manage to protect your island bases from being tanked. Do you plan on increasing the size of the islands so that the bases can no longer be killed?
I am thinking of making the nat untankable from the islands, and islands untankable from main land
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
bump
currently making the islands further so that nat's gas can't be tanked
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On November 30 2009 15:12 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 14:19 konadora wrote:On November 30 2009 14:15 iNfeRnaL wrote:
interesting idea, however taking a glance at it the naturals look really really hard to defend as protoss - how do you wanna forge gate/wall there? if so at the very entrance, which is bad cause those cans won't help vs muta/lurker drop at all ~~ i tried forge fe, there isn't trouble with the positions, although there may be some lack of space. You missunderstood me I think. Sure you can forge gate fe but its still like space of one gate left... which means about ~6-7 probes needed in order to block this vs a ling runby => hello 9 pool speed, need 3 cans before nex + half of your eco blocking that choke = ROFL. Also the chokepoint is too far away of the actual nexus position which would - as I already stated - require about ~5-6 cannons to be save vs mutalisks cause those two at the choke are miles away to even cover cannons at your nexus (which choke cannons usually do)
Why not at the ramp, like Desti?
I think there's too many expo's all clustered at one point. Why would Terran ever move out from his natural until after he had 4 base (3gas plus one crappy gas)?
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
Made some changes, hoping resolving some imbalance issues.
Huge change will be of course, nat's gas being untankable from island expo now.
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
Hmm I found a bug with the 'unbuildable' jungle terrains, they're all high ground, meh.
I'll fix that later, uploading an obs version atm.
Also added a ZvT replay.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/5306/4rosario14.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/39/4rosario13.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/5423/4rosario12.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7903/wallkx.jpg)
