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Active: 1350 users

StarCraft AI Competition (2010) - Page 4

Forum Index > BW General
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MorroW
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden3522 Posts
November 13 2009 15:15 GMT
#61
these bots are going to suck really hard or even crash in the tournament

micro and decision making is too extreme to actually pull of in such a short period of time

will be really interesting to watch it tho
Progamerpls no copy pasterino
GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-13 16:19:56
November 13 2009 16:17 GMT
#62
from slashdot

Human Advantages:
Imagined Prediction Advantage
Flexible Stategies
Arguably Faster Learning

AI Advantages:
Able to command all units at once
Usually More efficient w/ resources
Instant Macro management

Korean Advantages:
Superior Strategies
Advanced Prediction
Flexible Tactics
Arguably Faster Learning
Able to command all units at once
Usually More efficient w/ resources
Instant Macro management


Clever

Although this challenge is going to be pretty hard, at least for the full game simulation.
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
Jakalo
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Latvia2350 Posts
November 13 2009 16:19 GMT
#63
On November 14 2009 01:17 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
from slashdot
Show nested quote +

Human Advantages:
Imagined Prediction Advantage
Flexible Stategies
Arguably Faster Learning

AI Advantages:
Able to command all units at once
Usually More efficient w/ resources
Instant Macro management

Korean Advantages:
Superior Strategies
Advanced Prediction
Flexible Tactics
Arguably Faster Learning
Able to command all units at once
Usually More efficient w/ resources
Instant Macro management


Clever


lol too true

*sad*
Nostalgia is not as good as it used to be.
Terranist
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2496 Posts
November 13 2009 16:30 GMT
#64
they should get the guys that created Deep Blue to enter.
The Show of a Lifetime
ix
Profile Joined July 2003
United Kingdom184 Posts
November 13 2009 17:12 GMT
#65
I bet this will be like some of the other academic AI in games (the Quake 3 engine is used for a lot of AI research) in that it's apparently trying to do very sophisticated things but the end result is very poor in game terms and is marred by the coder's lack of game experience and understanding.
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-13 17:19:51
November 13 2009 17:18 GMT
#66
On November 13 2009 23:39 azndsh wrote:
This problem is so much harder than a lot of you are giving credit for. In fact the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that an AI developed by anything less than a full-time development team of really good players would have any semblance of a chance against a top human player.

StarCraft is such a bad game to try to develop an AI for in the sense that there's just way too much knowledge required to play the game. Add to it the element of scouting and fog of war just makes the game unbelievably difficult for AI to play.

Show nested quote +
On November 13 2009 17:51 Bill307 wrote:
Fascinating. The level of control offered by BWAPI sounds promising (assuming it offers the same level of unit control as a human player will have).

I can guarantee that in the complete-game competition, 99% to 100% of ones time will be spent making an AI that can survive, if not win in, the first few minutes of the game. If you're not confident in your AI's ability to survive the opening of the game, then any time you spend on its abilities beyond that is a waste of time.

The first step in making a winning AI will be to either:
a) execute a well-timed, well-microed 4-pool, or
b) defend against such a 4-pool with good micro.

If you can't do one of these, then you might as well not bother entering (unless you assume all the other entrants will similarly incapable ).

4 pool alone isn't trivial, but multiply this by 100 and you get about how hard SC is to play at the D+/C- level.

However, I could imagine there being really good AI's for specific tasks, such as microing small number of units that could play out certain situations almost perfectly. (Stage 1)

If you really wanted to make a strong AI for a game, it would make a lot more sense to pick a different genre such as turn-based strategy (Civ), fighting games (SF4), or even first-person shooters (HL).

Yea you are so right. An Ai can get a perfect aim in FPS and i think that most of the turn-based strategy games can be solved by brute force ( or at least the comp can take the best Ev+ decisions ).
A real time strategy game like stacraft is the hardest thing for an AI.
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
SultanVinegar
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States372 Posts
November 13 2009 17:35 GMT
#67
Yeah I'm not sure how good the AI's will be able to get without slowing the game down. But, I'm fucking pumped to work on this for the next year.
I'm a Flash man.
SirKibbleX
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States479 Posts
November 13 2009 17:41 GMT
#68
If you've ever lost to one of the game's pre-built AIs when you were first learning SC, then you know that its possible for a comp to beat a human. In fact, a good AI is theoretically much, much better than you. I await the programmer who can 'prove' whether or not a probe/drone can kill well-micro'd terran workers without taking a single hit.

The beauty of this competition is that it will inevitably lead to newer, better modules. If someone can focus all their effort on one small task, like one person focuses purely on perfecting zergling vs. zergling combat for the micro competition, and another person focuses purely on writing a code for optimizing psionic storms, the larger AIs will be able to take those small-scale functions and algorithms and apply them to create a better and better system. I'd say in 2-3 years the AI could be able to beat humans 100%, but AIs may continue to become better and better and better...
Praemonitus, Praemunitus.
Bill307
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Canada9103 Posts
November 13 2009 18:30 GMT
#69
If someone wants to make a TLnet team AI, I'm in. In fact, I think we should totally make one.

I have a lot of ideas, but no time to program them.
GogoKodo
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Canada1785 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-13 21:39:40
November 13 2009 21:39 GMT
#70
Neat little example video in case people didn't actually visit the BWAPI google code site.


+ Show Spoiler +

The AI sucks pretty hard, but it's mostly just a test to show a scouting probe and the terrain identification features.
twitter: @terrancem
jalstar
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States8198 Posts
November 13 2009 21:52 GMT
#71
So they finished it? At the time of the example video the AI was incapable of attacking.
AssuredVacancy
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States1167 Posts
November 13 2009 22:10 GMT
#72
If anyone's interested in making a development team for this I'm totally in. Spent 5 hours yesterday trying to make probes have perfect hit and run micro.
We spend our youth attaining wealth, and our wealth attaining youth.
uNiGNoRe
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
Germany1115 Posts
November 13 2009 22:35 GMT
#73
On November 14 2009 03:30 Bill307 wrote:
If someone wants to make a TLnet team AI, I'm in. In fact, I think we should totally make one.

I have a lot of ideas, but no time to program them.


I'd be interested as well. Although I don't really know how much time I have for stuff like that.
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-13 22:45:11
November 13 2009 22:44 GMT
#74
Sick stuff Gogokodo.
I'm really impressed.
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
November 13 2009 22:59 GMT
#75
On November 14 2009 02:41 SirKibbleX wrote:
If you've ever lost to one of the game's pre-built AIs when you were first learning SC, then you know that its possible for a comp to beat a human. In fact, a good AI is theoretically much, much better than you. I await the programmer who can 'prove' whether or not a probe/drone can kill well-micro'd terran workers without taking a single hit.

The beauty of this competition is that it will inevitably lead to newer, better modules. If someone can focus all their effort on one small task, like one person focuses purely on perfecting zergling vs. zergling combat for the micro competition, and another person focuses purely on writing a code for optimizing psionic storms, the larger AIs will be able to take those small-scale functions and algorithms and apply them to create a better and better system. I'd say in 2-3 years the AI could be able to beat humans 100%, but AIs may continue to become better and better and better...


I doubt it'll be that easy. Chess AIs have been in development for a very long time and finally they are about as strong as humans. Go AIs suck horribly even though the game concept is quite simple.
Imo creating a decent SC AI will be much harder than any of those, as SC is much more complex.

Unless the AI can win by outmicroing humans very early in the game, which I doubt because defense is stronger than offense in SC.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
Jank
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States308 Posts
November 13 2009 23:34 GMT
#76
Definitely gonna give this a try. I'm pretty busy at the moment but deadline is awesome, I'm glad they announced this so early. I'm a reasonably competent c++ programmer but have no real ai knowledge. I'll probably just try the micro ones unless I'm feeling really ambitious.
"You don't know you're wearing a leash if you sit by the peg all day." - Michael Parenti
integral
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3161 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-14 00:12:07
November 14 2009 00:06 GMT
#77
Gogo TL sponsored team! Seriously, if TL doesn't win this shit I'mma be disappointed. I'll contribute in what limited ways I can, but surely there are people with more skills/resources than I am who are willing to participate.
[image loading]

Poll: Are you interested in joining a team that enters this competition?
(Vote): Yes, only Tournament 1: Micro-management
(Vote): Yes, only Tournament 2: Small-scale Combat
(Vote): Yes, only Tournament 3: Tech-limited game
(Vote): Yes, only Tournament 4: Complete StarCraft game
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): Hell yes, TL is going to win this shit!


edit: poll breaks page layout, gonna have to redo.
edit: oops, ignore the (Vote): in option 1.
Jank
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States308 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-14 00:50:36
November 14 2009 00:50 GMT
#78
I think a team approach may be the only way to make an even semi-competent bot for a complete game of starcraft. Shits just that complicated. That said I'll probably only being doing the micro ones by myself or with a friend.
"You don't know you're wearing a leash if you sit by the peg all day." - Michael Parenti
r3dox
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Germany261 Posts
November 14 2009 09:56 GMT
#79
pretty interesting, but its gonna be so annoying to keep trying out your changes (starting game, letting them play, check results etc.)

there should be a server where people can upload their AI module, and the server will be running games vs eachother nonstop and provide statistics of the games played, replays, and logs of the bots etc.
So no fek
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States3001 Posts
November 14 2009 10:16 GMT
#80
Hope to see some good stuff come from this. Go go, BM!
#1 Shuttle fan - TeamLiquid CJ Entusman #36 BW4lyfe
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