• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 14:04
CEST 20:04
KST 03:04
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles6[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China10Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL70
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Season 1 - Final Week RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread TL Team Map Contest #4: Winners Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster Server Blocker
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone Script to open stream directly using middle click ASL20 Preliminary Maps BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 Last Minute Live-Report Thread Resource!
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5 Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Accidental Video Game Porn Archive Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 670 users

Welcome to the S-Class

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
Normal
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-18 06:59:26
October 10 2009 10:04 GMT
#1
[image loading]

Welcome to the S-Class
Heroes, Rivalries, and The Post-Hero Age
A BroodWar Article by DoctorHelvetica


We live in an era without a face, without a hero, without a god. We also live in an era that produces the highest skilled players imaginable. Is StarCraft dying? Or is this just a new life?

Let's remember a time when big personalities and epic rivalries fueled E-Sports. Let's celebrate the skill of the players we cherish now. Let's look forward to the future, whether you think it's bright or dark, it looms upon us.

Every sport needs a hero.

Please keep in mind this is an OPINION piece and is not meant in anyway to be objective. This is just how I feel about the way the scene was, is, and will be. Absolutely no flamewars.


What is a hero?


[image loading]

I think this might be one...


There was once a time, a place, and a scene in which there was one man, one gamer, and one genius we could all look up to. Someone who was sure to win that OSL title, someone who was sure to amaze us with every game he played, someone who was sure win a starleague title, to conquer and rule as the benevolent leader of the BroodWar community. This hero would become the single representative of E-Sports, this hero would change the game forever, and this hero would leave fans in awe and give anti-fans a focus for their hatred.

Indeed, the E-Sports kingdom once had an emperor. His name was Lim Yo Hwan. When someone asks me "What good does a champion, a face, a hero really do to the scene?" I can only point to The Emperor himself. This man invented BroodWar, he made the sport what it is, and he brought the fans to the table. This sport lives on because of the flair and personality he brought to BroodWar; becoming more than just a gamer and transcending the stereotype that gamers were anti-social outcasts.

A hero dominates the scene, changes the metagame, and brings attention to the scene all at once. He is an all encompassing figurehead of BroodWar. Lim Yo Hwan was more than just a player, he was a role-model, a celebrity, a hero and giver of hope to gamers everywhere. He is a personality to the public, a king to his game, and a god to his fans. A hero is what eases people into becoming fans and is what keeps them in for the long haul. They're a spokesperson for e-sports, proof that nerds can be sex symbols.

Every sport needs a hero. Every sport needs a Pele, a Michael Jordan, or a Tiger Woods. StarCraft has had it's share of heroes. SlayerS_BoxeR, [ReD]NaDa, Iloveoov, and sAviOr. The 4 bonjwa's, the 4 men who dominated the game and made all fear them. The men who brought life and energy to the game, gave it a spirit, and more than anything brought attention and popularity to the scene. BoxeR was the face of video games in Korea, a tall, handsome, and charismatic man that every parent could appreciate; that every citizen could respect.

[image loading]

A hero's presence is always felt...


What is a hero? A hero doesn't just dominate and win a lot of games, otherwise Jaedong would be our hero without a doubt. A hero inspires awe with his games, strikes fear into the hearts of all who meets them, and changes the way the game is played. A hero has moments that make you jump out of your seat and yell in excitement. While it's impressive to see Jaedong multitask a group of mutas, while ling harassing, massing lurkers, and expanding; there's nothing truly heroic about it. When NaDa individually yamato cannons more than an entire control group of BattleCruisers, it's heroic. Times have changed. We no longer have this one hero, or even a few.

There was a time when you could always count on NaDa, on Iloveoov, on YellOw, on sAviOr, on BoxeR. These were faces of the sport, they were rivalries that ignited an inferno among the fanbase. Let's not pretend we don't have modern equivalents, but there are too many faces now. Before there were a few heroic men standing above all, looking down upon the rest, that those under them would learn from their heroic deeds and one day become gods themselves.

There are so many players now capable of winning a StarLeague or dominating ProLeague that could we reasonably select one as hero, as a face, as a king? Jaedong, FantaSy, Calm, Bisu, Stork, JangBi, FlaSh, Mind, Leta, go.go, YARNC, Luxury, fOrGG, Iris, EffOrt, Kwanro, ZerO, Hwasin, KaL, Sea, Light, and the list goes on. So many players with the potential skill to knock the "champion" off his throne that being the champion means almost nothing. You're not a hero if you only last a season.

The heroes of old and their rivalries defined the personality of the BroodWar scene. We can thank the likes of Lim Yo Hwan, Hong Jin Ho, and Park Jung Suk for that. The games played between gamers like these are the things of legend, even between players with a great disparity in skill, to see two huge personalities sitting in those booths was electric to the audience.

legendary players need legendary rivalries...


Aging Heroes, Young Villains, and Electric Rivalries


[image loading]

When gods do battle...


BoxeR vs Anytime. Iloveoov vs JulyZerg. NaDa vs sAviOr. sAviOr vs Bisu. These were the rivalries that ended the life of the hero and began a new era of revolution. Anytime put an end to BoxeR's domination, he never fully recovered from the loss. Sashin, the dark god of death ruled with an iron fist, the dark kingdom of the villain known as Anytime[gm] stood strong until the emergence of a new hero.

Each new hero falls to a new villain. NaDa could not beat sAviOr, his legendary SK Terran made to be a joke. His hero throne usurped by the zerg sAviOr, who revolutionized 3 hatch play and became the new hero, changing the game, making zerg a race to be feared once more. Mutalisk micro and crippling dark swarm usage became the weapon of choice for post-sAviOr zergs. It wasn't about genius micro of what were previously seen as weak units but rather frighteningly intense macro, a fast hive, and pushing straight across the map with plagues and swarms covering the map. The maestro truly turned the song of zerg into a symphony of destruction.

Iloveoov fell to JulyZerg, a macro player who was supposedly invincible against Zerg could not win against the micro intensive zerg play of July. sAviOr fell to the revolutionary protoss play that Bisu borrowed from Daezang. These were the villains that made our heroes fall from grace, but does that change their hero nature? Does Lim Yo Hwan still not command respect when he walks into a room? It was the legacy of their games, the moments, the gems hidden inside the statistics that made them who they were. When has a protoss commanded as much excitement as nal.rA? When has a terran made you giggle with excitement as you guessed what zany build he would pull out of his hat since the emperor himself?

These heroes are still every bit as respected as they once more, but they no longer rule the scene, ended by villains they hide in the background. They are tools of nostalgia, old favorites that make those who have been watching since 2002 crap their pants with excitement. But they are still relics of a forgotten age. An age when one rivalry dominated the scene, when everyone HAD to see the BoxeR vs YellOw game, the NaDa vs Anytime game, the sAviOr vs Hwasin game.

These rivalries are what ignited sparks among the fanbase and created series games that no one in their right minds would miss. How can you compare Jaedong vs YellOw[ARNC] to sAviOr vs Bisu? These rivalry matches generated INSTANT hype and even when the games were poor in quality they had a particular energy about them that left viewers satisfied. No one would pretend that FlaSh vs Jaedong in the GOM Classic was a good match, but it generated electric waves of excitement due merely to the rivalry.

[image loading]

Can a new rivalry live up to the test?


Now the word rivalry is all but meaningless as the dominant player changes at the drop of a pin. Jaedong has been rivals to Stork, FlaSh, Luxury, Bisu, and FantaSy in the span of less than 2 years of BroodWar competition. When you think of BoxeR's rival you instantly think YellOw; that's a rivalry on par of Packers/Viking, on the par of Ash Ketchum and Gary Oak. It doesn't change, it doesn't falter, it's an eternal clash between two geniuses of the sport.

Todays rivalry works something more like this: Great players play a few closes series. They are declared to have a rivalry. One of them slumps and then a new "rival" appears and lasts about a season and a half. Is there a single rivalry in BroodWar anymore that compares to what was once had? Jaedong/Bisu have played a great series in GOM and some seriously high level games in Proleague, but is it any better to games that FlaSh/Leta have played? That FantaSy and Stork have played? How long will it be until one of them slumps and someone else takes the place?

Rivalries, villains, heroes made StarCraft an e-sport with a bit of flair. It wasn't just nerds playing a game, it was strong, handsome, and charismatic men waging war over a digital landscape, rife with ceremony, pyrotechnics, and legendary rivalries. This has changed. StarCraft is a different sport now. There is no hero. There is no villain. There is no face of the game. Who are we to look up to? Who is the man who will raise the TV ratings, change the game, and dominate it at the same time? Kim Taek Young was the last true hero and Jaedong might yet be his successor. However, the state of starcraft is a bit different. The focus on flair and persona has decreased in the wake of a skill-level explosion. Some may find this depressing, others like myself find it enthralling. While the personalities may not be heroic, the games certainly are. As we transitioned from an era of personality rivalries and heroic characters we moved sharply into an era where there are too many great players to fill one room. A whole new class.
Welcome to the S-Class, mon cher'

Meet The Heroes:


Let's take a time out as we move from an era of big personalities and heroic charms to take a look at the players who made that era what it was. These are some selected articles from around TL (including one of my own :3) that are great representations of those progamers and who they are.

YellOw

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
Cover image by zxk3

The Storm Zerg
by pubbanana (Guest Writer)
TeamLiquid: Final Edits


"Actual happiness looks pretty squalid in comparison with the overcompensations for misery. And, of course, stability isn’t nearly so spectacular as instability. And being contented has none of the glamor of a good fight against misfortune, none of the picturesqueness of a struggle with temptation, or a fatal overthrow by passion or doubt. Happiness is never grand."

– Aldous Huxley, Brave New World

Many people would describe Hong Jin Ho's career as tragic. Coming so close so many times only to be met with defeat can only be seen as heartbreaking to the thousands of people who cheer and adore him.

But this is not a tragedy.

This is a love story.

Because the game is his whole world, it reciprocates his love. His hands produce and position units that pour over into his opponent's defenses like a whirlwind. Slowly, his intense stare changes into an affectionate gaze as the game rewards him with a moment of meaning in a meaningless world.

No matter who types GG in this moment, he will experience a joy which is the essence of his existence as a progamer.

A joy because he created a storm.

This is the Storm Zerg. This is Hong Jin Ho.

“I want to be famous.”

For two years, the Terran Emperor Lim Yo Hwan existed in this world without a rival. It wouldn't be until 2 years later, in 1982, when Hong Jin Ho would be born in a small city in Daejeon known for it's cherry blossom festival. Without a father, his older brother and himself were raised by his mother. Long before he was [NC]...YellOw, long before the Lim Jin War, he was a boy with his father's face and his mother's ambition. However, he didn't share her visions for his future.

“I want to be famous.”

Studying and school weren't important to him. He was driven by different motivations. Though he has a warm personality, he can't be forced into something that he doesn't like. Likewise, he won't waste time on something he doesn't love.

When he first saw StarCraft in a PC room, his path in life took a sudden turn. Sacrificing everything, he walked down that different road in life that every progamer takes, but very few ever find the will or motivation to continue down. His mother thought he was out studying or cramming for school when he'd come home late at night. He was beaten when she found out what he had really been devoting his time to, but it didn't stop him. Nothing could. A genuine affinity had been formed. It was a bond that was never meant to be broken.

Risking his future and enduring his mother's disappointment, he left for Seoul to make it as a progamer.

“He looks like a thug.”

His life wasn't easy at this point. Living in an apartment with two other gamers, he practiced day and night and only lived off of one meal of ramen a day. Their winnings from local tournaments were barely enough to allow them to survive on their own.

Coach Song Ho Chang was having trouble sponsoring a pro team. He was in the middle of negotiations with an urban clothing company about sponsoring his team, but the deal fell through. They were barely making enough money to survive. Coach Song had to sell his car so that his kids would have a place to stay. By a stroke of good luck, he convinced a local PC room to offer their services to his team for free. Just as good things were beginning, the PC room closed it's doors and his team was once again left without a sponsor. Out of desperation, he went to the Gamei headquarters and pleaded with them to sponsor his team. While they didn't get an official sponsorship, they did get a place to stay and a PC room to use.

Soon, these two people with the strength to never accept the conditions as they were presented would cross paths.

“He looks like a thug.” was Coach Song's first impression of Jin Ho's appearance. Not expecting much of anything, he agreed to give him a test to be apart of the Gamei team. Though the result was less than spectacular (in that he lost every single game), it was the way that he lost that intrigued the coach. Particularly, in his games against the team ace Kim Jong Sung (SalMoSa), Coach Song noticed that Jin Ho had a kind of organization and sense for his units that he hadn't experienced in a player before.

Watching him lose, Coach Song was charmed by his play which could only have been born out of a pure devotion to the game. And with that, he recruited him. The first step towards a progamer was marked by the very action that signified his career – losing. It was then solidified by the very thing that had started him down this path in life – his love for the game.

“Drop! Drop! Drop!”

Hong Jin Ho had found something in Coach Song that had been missing in his own life. While he doesn't explicitly state it, his coach was a sort of father figure to him during their time together. Coach Song gave him lectures about maintaining the mindset of a professional. He also helped him change the way he dressed and presented himself. Jin Ho had matured with the help of his coach, for it was with this team that he became a man.

And it showed in his game. He swept the first 3 tournaments his coach signed him up for. While Coach Song was known for his passive coaching style, even he could not resist the spectacle that was developing into what is now known as the Storm Zerg. Cheering behind Jin Ho, he could be heard yelling out to his fleet of Overlords “Drop! Drop! Drop!”

During his next tournament, the first Gamei Open, he would lock eyes with a boy who would become his greatest rival and deny him victory again and again for the first time.

But not on that day. On that day, he would be the one watching Jin Ho grasp first place.

“You were made to do this.”

The Gamei team was once again coming under sponsor troubles. Despite this, Jin Ho continued to crawl his way through every preliminary round he could find. Sensing that something drastic was needed to help support the team, he switched his attention to 2v2 play. His decision paid off as he and SalMoSa swept several televised 2v2 tournaments. But their efforts were not enough. Despite their good intentions, the Gamei team lost sponsorship and Jin Ho was forced to part ways with the team that had raised him.

Coach Song had no worries. Jin Ho had impressed him with his performances, even in the televised leagues which new players generally don't fare well in due to nerves. But he was different. The stage was his home. For the little boy who wanted to be a star, doing what he loved in front of a crowd was a dream come true.

“You were made to do this.”

The coach's words would ring even more true months later when he would watch Jin Ho grasp the trophy in iTV's King of Rookies of tournament. His star was shining. There was no looking back at this point. The Storm Zerg had arrived.

"I even had to try my first kiss twice."

The year of 2001 was magical for the young Storm Zerg. While working under contract for any team that would house and feed him, he qualified for all three Starleagues. His hungry spirit was shown through his waves of Hydralisks and his bundles of Mutalisks that moved in a way that had never been seen before. It was almost cinematic to watch a Jin Ho army clash with the enemy from both land and air.

HanBit Soft Starleague Round of 8.

Coca Cola Starleague 2nd Place.

SKY Starleague 4th Place.

He had posted an impressive record and triumphed over an impressive number of veteran players in his first year as a progamer. The Storm Zerg was also responsible for the first case of distorted audio in a broadcasted match due to the hell-hollering of his female fanclub. In comparison with making it to the big leagues so early in his career, Jin Ho replies "I even had to try my first kiss twice".

"I never wanted to stay without Yo Hwan-hyung."

Lim Yo Hwan and Hong Jin Ho. Their fated meeting in the 2001 Coca Cola finals held no particular significance to either one of them at the time, but they have since come to realize that they were guiding an entire generation of progamers. He admits he held a shallow view of their rivalry back then, but has since understood his role as a veteran progamer and as a rival.

Jin Ho would find his next home in early 2002 with Yo Hwan on the Ideal Space (IS) proteam. Living together with Yo Hwan and being the veterans on the team, he saw how their personalities were polar opposite of each other. Yo Hwan would push the practice partners until they would beg him to stop. Jin Ho would push them until they asked him to stop. Though he teased him for it, Yo Hwan understood that his soft approach was needed to balance the otherwise brutal training sessions.

After the SKY 2002 Starleague, Yo Hwan's father had been angered by the fact that IS didn't provide his son with what he thought were "adequate" Protoss training partners. His contract with IS would expire a week later, and with that, he was gone. Though Jin Ho and Lee Yun Yeol were shaken, they still tried to keep IS together.

But, by December, Jin Ho had signed a deal with the KTF MagicNs. When asked why he was leaving IS when he was one of their main pillars of support, he simply said "I never wanted to stay without Yo Hwan-hyung."

"The title of 'King of Second Place' stops today."

Jin Ho's NC clan mates had crowned him the King of Second Place during his time with the Gamei team. Placing in the top 3 of over 10 tournaments, but never placing first had caught their attention. Though it was a title he didn't at all care for, it would follow him to his professional career and become his most distinguishing characteristic.

Coming close, but never finishing.

Losing to Lim Yo Hwan in the Coca-Cola finals and then to Prince of Zerg, Sung Hak Seung (MuMyung) in the KPGA Winner's Championship within months of each other had given him a strong desire to shed his second place image.

He set his sights on the KT OnGameNet King of Kings tournament.

Garimto, SlayerS_`BoxeR`, TheMarine, JinNam, V-Gundam – They were all ships sailing towards the same port.

And Hong Jin Ho was the storm that destroyed them.

Before the final match with Dynamo Terran Jo Jung Hyun (V-Gundam), he made his intentions very clear: "The title of 'King of Second Place' stops today."

V-Gundam's units looked almost pitiful. Forced to lift his last expansion and watch his remaining SCVs bunch together like a herd of cattle, the situation was hopeless. Jin Ho's Lurkers burrowed with a certain vigor, his Hydralisks attacked with an intimidation that he certainly had never seen until he encountered the ID of [NC]...YellOw.

Yet, Jin Ho looks oddly serene. Sweating from head to toe and presenting a vicious display of his skill, he watches his units with a sincere expression of a child. The constant affection exchanged between Jin Ho and his units produce but two simple letters:

"gg"

And with that, the King of Second Place had grasped his first major trophy.

"When I wake up tomorrow, I don't want all of this to be a dream."

Was it really happening?

Hong Jin Ho vs Lim Yo Hwan. 2003 KTEC KPGA Winner's Championship.

"He's using such bizarre strategies."

The nightmares of the KPGA Tours.

The failure to advance to the finals in the Panasonic Starleague.

Even losing in special event games.

Second place.

The King of Second Place.

The Yo Hwan Jinx.

His mind was clouded. The mental battle between himself and Lim Yo Hwan was almost more than he could handle.

"Everyone is expecting me to lose."

Last year, they were under the same roof, training for the same Starleague. This year, they're rivals again. Two boys who chased the same irresponsible dream are meeting in the finals once again. The real battle that is going on is invisible to the audience, for it is being held in their minds.

What is taking place is something very pure. Ambition, devotion, hope, all of it is being poured into the keyboard and the mouse. It is, in some ways, like witnessing the most selfless of all actions.

Because those who fall in love with themselves have no rivals.

On that day, Hong Jin Ho emerged as the winner. Overcoming the Yo Hwan Jinx and once again pushing aside the title of 'King of Second Place', he struggled to find words to describe his feelings.

"When I wake up tomorrow, I don't want all of this to be a dream."

For Jin Ho, it would prove to not just be a dream, though it may as well have been. In fact, it was only a taste of things to come. With a new team and a new victory, he would make his presence felt on a deeper level to all who would continue to cheer for him.

"He doesn't even keep one hour to himself."

Defeating his own team mate, Lee Yun Yeol, in the final of the GameTV Challenger Open Starleague after their return from ClikArena in France was just a glimpse of the Hong Jin Ho who wore the KTF uniform with a kind of pride that he didn't show before. Normally very sensitive about playing against members of his own team, he showed a zeal that was very unusual for him.

Hong Jin Ho, a man who prided himself on his compassion for others, was now showing a dear friend no mercy.

But it was in the most compassionate way. Rather than lose to someone due to his own useless pride, he would now rather give it everything he has. If he loses, he loses doing something that he loves. On the most basic principles of sport and the human character, he had found himself.

And as long as you and I are breathing in this world, he would work to make us proud of saying "I cheer for Hong Jin Ho."

He won the iTV StarCraft Ranking League and MBCGame's Big 4 Tour and placed 2nd in the TG Sambo MSL and the Olympus OSL. He also helped KTF reach 3rd place in both the MBCGame Proleague and the OGN EVER Proleague.

The KTF team was making a good showing, but it was Jin Ho who was truly making a commotion. The MagicNs were known to have the longest and most strict practice routine at the time. Their coach, Jung Soo Yung, was a character all his own. Banning Han Woong Ryul (Oddysay) for telling a lie so that he could leave practice to go see a girlfriend, cursing at JinNam and JinSu and threatening to not let them participate in the Premier League, hitting players with baseball bats to help them concentrate, the list goes on. He was a true maniac about his player's discipline.

Yet, even he was amazed by Jin Ho's work ethic.

"He devotes himself entirely to the team. He doesn't even keep one hour to himself."

"After the games today in Daegu, I won't put the KTF uniform back on."

During the KT-KTF Premier League, Jin Ho would meet a ghost from his past. His former coach, Song Ho Chang, had finally found solid financial backing for his team and they were reborn as Toona SG. Lee Yun Yeol and Jin Ho both wasted no time in going back home to their old team.

"After the games today in Daegu, I won't put the KTF uniform back on." announced Jin Ho on his fan site.

However, it was a pact that would only last 4 months. Because of their relationship, both Coach Song and Jin Ho had overlooked the business end of their deal. It was doomed to fail from the start.

He was a man now. He wasn't the same kid who was struggling just to be able to eat by playing StarCraft. He was a superstar. This was his living. This was his life. To be able to continue his career, he needed money. Though it hurt both of them, Jin Ho eventually accepted KTF's invitation to return to the team with an increased salary. Lee Yun Yeol, who was unhappy at KTF, decided to stay with Toona. He had also taken a shine to Lee Byung Min (GoodFriend) and had hopes of leading the team to glory with him. Though there were salary problems due to Neowiz not being able nor having the knowledge to properly sponsor or market a progame team, they survived.

Though Coach Song was not a rich man, he had left Jin Ho with a most priceless gift.

"Today, I was just a Zerg."

The Lim Jin War. Lim Yo Hwan vs Hong Jin Ho. This is, without a doubt, the most glamorous match-up in progaming.

When these two are facing each other on the stage, they are the only two people in the world.

But within this world, there exists one small detail: Maps. Everyone always agrees that a match between Jin Ho and Yo Hwan will ultimately be decided by how well they prepared for the maps. In the TG Sambo MSL, Jin Ho had said that he was confident with every map and that he wasn't worried about them at all. The only thing that worried him was the fact that he was playing a student of Lim Yo Hwan.

In return, Yo Hwan says that he knows him better than anyone else and he can tell what strategies will or will not work against him. But, no matter what, if you ask each of them who their favorite opponent to beat is, they're going to say each other's name. This is why a Lim Jin War is such a special thing, and not just for the audience.

Ever Starleague 2004 Semi-Finals. Another Lim Jin War was beginning. The commentators gave their opinions about which player had better chances on which maps and prepared a little statistics fiesta for the viewers. The crowd was expecting the most epic event ever in the history of progaming.

But this Lim Jin War wasn't decided by maps. Three bunker rushes and it was done.

Jin Ho knew he would be criticized for not reacting to the bunker rushes and adjusting his strategy.

Yo Hwan knew he would be criticized for using a bunker rush three consecutive times.

On this day, like every day, there was a winner and a loser. But on this day, neither one of them were smiling.

With his world crumbling around him, Jin Ho ran away to a PC room to write a letter to his fans.

"Today, I wasn't Hong Jin Ho. Today, I wasn't the Storm Zerg. Today, I was just a Zerg."

The shards of those words cut through his fans like a knife. It was a tragic turn of events that no one saw coming.

But this was not a tragedy.

The most tragic thing that could happen to him would be if he were to stop trying.

To stop playing. To stop being the Storm Zerg. To stop hearing the cheers of his fans. To not play StarCraft.

No, this is not a tragedy.

This is a love story.

No matter how many times he fell, the number of times he got back up was always one more than that.

He'll win and he'll lose. That's what progamers do.

Because the game is his whole world, he'll live with his back against the wall until he experiences that certain joy which is the reason for him sitting on that stage.

The joy of creating a storm.


Iloveoov

+ Show Spoiler +
On October 30 2008 18:37 Ver wrote:
*The return of iloveoov to progaming deserves at the very least one more article about the mental master. I very strongly encourage anyone who hasn't to check out Plexa's incredible works done already in the spoiler below. Since Plexa already covered so much so well, I don't want to be repeating any of his work and will instead focus on the other aspects of oov. I assume that anyone who reads this also read his articles, since otherwise you might be quite lost*

+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=67171

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=67579


"When you play, you have to start off with a mind to turn the game into a rape"

-iloveoov




Long before the reign of Savior, iloveoov was the evil boss of progaming. He was the original person to hate, besides Mumuyung of course. He refused to rob Yellow of a silver, made Boxer cry, and emptied stadiums faster than Firebathero in a swimsuit. Go back and look at old live report threads, it's astounding how much hate he got. The games ended long before the threads finished, but the rest of the posts mostly consisted of complaints/hate against oov. His play was misunderstood, he was treated as a boring robot, but in reality he was the greatest genius in broodwar history. Now attitudes towards him have softened considerably, but I want to bring to the forefront the harder to see parts of oov.

[image loading]

The boss, surrounded by challengers


+ Show Spoiler [Reference] +
After oov won against Boxer in the Ever OSL finals most of the crowd immediately left. And I don't know if FBH's half-naked ceremony made people leave but it fit well.


Pure Clutch and Dominance


iloveoov, rightly called the most dominating player in history, also became synonymous with boring, safe play that characterized the future generations of terran players. oov was blamed as the split between the Boxer style of flashy micro terran and the cold, calculating macro terrans that reigned afterwards. But unlike the many terrans that followed him such as goodfriend, Bifrost, FBH, or hwasin, oov was the smartest player in sc history, and totally unlike midas or iris, iloveoov was the also the most clutch player in history. While Nada (and only Nada) has accomplished more, you cannot argue with a 5-0 history in OGN/MBC finals.



There is an easy answer to the question of: If you had to pick someone to play for your life, who would you choose? In the highest pressure scenario possible, OSL/MSL finals, oov was unmatched.

iloveoov 3-0 Yellow Trigem MSL
iloveoov 3-2 Nada Hanafos MSL
iloveoov 3-2 Kingdom Spris MSL
iloveoov 3-2 Boxer Ever 04 OSL
iloveoov 3-0 Julyzerg Shinhan Bank OSL


+ Show Spoiler [Vs Nada] +
It may have been 3-2, but oov went from being down 2-1 to utterly dominating the flabbergasted Nada in games 4 and 5.


+ Show Spoiler [Vs Boxer] +
Note that he won against Boxer even after losing against the incredible game 4 build and looking visibily disturbed. And it was a series that he "force[d] himself to win."


Here's how other popular choices would fare:
+ Show Spoiler [Comparison] +


(Z)JulyZerg 3/0 *In July only. Clearly watermelon power.
(P)GARIMTO 2/0
Bisubuild 1/0 *It may have only won once, but it captured the heart and mouth of Klazart forever.
TL.net 1/0 *Soon to be 2-0
(Z)sAviOr 4/2 *Pre-2009.
(P)Bisu 2/1
(Z)Jaedong 2/1 *He still lost to CUTEANGEL.
(Z)JulyZerg 3/2 *Overall
NaDa 6/4
(P)rA 2/2
(T)BoxeR 3/4
(P)Reach 1/3
(Z)ChoJJa 1/3 *Sorry Tfeign, his Kespa ranking doesn't matter here.
(Z)YellOw 0/5 *Yellow is the REAL Silver medalist. Take that (P)Stork.
(P)Stork 0/3 *Wait (P)Stork got 2nd place in Silver medal count. Who is it!? Will the real Mr. Silver please stand up?
(Z)Silver 0/1 *Someone called? Did I make Power Rank yet?
GG.Net 0/1
(T)Midas 0/0 *JUST KIDDING. And you were up 2-1 too!
(T)ToSsGirL 0/0
Blackman 0/0 *Only if you're Polish.




[image loading]

The only way to beat oov


However, iloveoov was not just a Nada, who dominated single leagues but didn't hold his massive weight in teamleagues. Back when all kill leagues were around, iloveoov was the only ingredient needed. With a 13-2 record overall in the MBCGAME teamleague and putting up performances like this, It's not exactly hard to see how 4U won despite having a lineup similar to KTF last season.

Loser's bracket finals 4U vs GO

1: Xellos(GO) defeated Kos(4U) on Enter the Dragon
2: Xellos(GO) defeated IntoTheRainbow(4U) on Detonation_Xnote
3: ILoveoov(4U) defeated Xellos(GO) on JR's Memory
4: ILoveoov(4U) defeated ForU(GO) on Parallellines
5: ILoveoov(4U) defeated Nal_rA(GO) on Enter the Dragon
6: ILoveoov(4U) defeated Eros~Rage(GO) on Detonation_Xnote
4Union 4 : 2 GO


[image loading]

This is not someone you wanted to face


It was not just older teamleagues where he pulled miracles: oov still holds (the tied) record for most proleague victories at 17. Up until Boxer's retirement, oov was the team ace. It may have been team Boxer, but oov long was the guy you could always count on to win.

This is just how good he was in prime form, which he considered up to his Spris MSL win:

+ Show Spoiler [Stats] +

oov up until facing Julyzerg 03/04/05-04/07/01. Nearly 15 months.

77-20 Overall (79%)
32-15 TvT (68%)
27-0 TvZ (100%)
18-5 TvP (78%)


oov start of career to ever osl victory 03/04/05-04/11/20. 19 1/2 months.

114-48 Overall (70%)
45-28 TvT (62%)
37-9 TvZ (80%)
32-11 TvP (74%)


Brilliance


The primary charge leveled against oov was that he was safe, standard, and boring. But was that really true? Boxer was beloved because his play was risky and art, but oov was hated, because he was a machine. But oov was risky, oov was cutesy, oov is the smartest player in SC history, but oov's brilliance is much harder to detect, because it is far deeper and harder to understand.

A great example of this is EVER '04 finals. This series was one, if not the best series ever, and the most popular/spoken of game of the series is Boxer's m&m rush game 4 on Requiem, for very good reason. Ironically none of the other games are ever spoken of even though it is one of the most loved series and all the games are very very deep. The risk Boxer made in game 4was huge, the margin of error infinitely small, and above all he pulled it off in 1-2 situation.

Now consider game 3 on Mercury. iloveoov does a 1 fact 1 port tank/vult into wraith without addon build while boxer walls off and goes 2 port wraiths with addon. This is what's called a build order loss, and it's not luck, it's because Boxer is really smart too. Boxer's cloaked wraiths rape all of oov's wraiths without taking any damage and proceeds to take potshots at his scvs, who are frantically making an armory/acad, and gets many kills. Meanwhile oov counter's boxer with his tanks, but Boxer is able to easily repel them with tank/scv/wraith and almost no losses. At oov's base he is only able to live because he mass repairs his first goliath, and even then he is in a desperate situation with having no turrets, very limited scan, and only a paltry force that is being contained and continually sniped by Boxer.

And what does oov do while he is being nearly killed? Defend and stabilize? Counter? Nope, he expands. A hidden expansion at 3's main, which singlehandedly wins him the game. -Ironically Boxer almost gets himself back in the game with two hidden expansions of his own, but oov's early-mid game lead was too much to overcome.- Furthermore he does not get turrets, which would prevent Boxer from harassing him completely but instead invites the harass and keeps Boxer focused on harassing him while saving money at the same time. It may not be as flashy as Boxer's m&m rush, but it was every bit as impressive and seriously attests to iloveoov's psychological understanding.

Look at it from Boxer's POV: you nearly killed him, he still doesn't have turrets so you can harass him further. Would, oh I need to check for his hidden expansion, possibly come to mind at this time? No, of course not. Even knowing oov and his hidden expansion tendencies inside out, Boxer still didn't consider it; that's how strong of a play it was.

+ Show Spoiler [Luck?] +

People dismissed it as luck because Boxer's wraiths flew so close later on, but that was more of Boxer sending his wraiths away from oov's base than actively scouting for expos, for his wraiths didn't even scout the expo properly and did not attempt to scout any others. He sent out a deliberate scouting scv later which discovered it, so it would've been more luck that Boxer found it when he was not intending to.


oov's explanation to critics of his 'lucky' hidden expansion play"That's undeserved. I always think "the opponent would be unaware if I expand now" in my practice. It's all about timing. It's my strategy that I make a feint of defence, and expand at the very time that others think I won't. But recently other players did very well in scouting, therefore this strategy didn't work out. And the countermeasure is to pretend training units when rivals are scouting. He goes aways, then I expand."


[image loading]

Not even the Emperor could stop the busdriver.


iloveoov was anything besides a safe, boring player; if you know what to look for.

It was Nada who is the epitome of the safe terran, who ran his opponents over with impeccable macro and micro. oov did not have that ability to outplay them with mechanics, he needed to gain advantages with builds and game flow. Why did Nada never had any difficulty defeating July and oov did? oov was certainly more skilled at defense overall but his gameplan relied at gaining an early economic advantage, and while other zergs could not exploit the timing window of oov's first form, July could. Nada's safe play on the other hand was impervious to July's early aggression, and as July could only win zvt by aggressive play and doing early damage, it is not surprising that Nada is 8-2 vs July overall and was able to 3-0 him with ease in finals. I attribute the ease to the imbalanced positions Nada got; given their history, it wouldn't have made too much of a difference though.

+ Show Spoiler [Sidetrack Boxer and Safety] +
Ironically, Boxer, who immediately comes to mind as the most aggressive and risky terran without question, and certainly was, played far more economically safely than oov. Consider Boxer's original innovation: 1 base harass. The most striking thing about it was how long Boxer took to expand. Usually he would only expand as his main minerals were running dry, although he often would only expand after his main ran out and just float his cc to the nat. While this build requires you to forego a cc until a fair amount of harassment is done and SV tech+ 3 rax is reached, there is little reason to not expand unless the enemy was near breaking point from the harass. The 8 marines sacrificed in making the CC are more than made up a few minutes later. Their loss is completely insignificant unless the battle is continually active and any loss in production for either side would spell their loss; which is true sometimes, but not always, and not for how long it takes for the main to run out.

Having played this build almost exclusively up until '06 or so, I realized how strong defensively strong this build was. You would march/fly around the map shutting down zerg expansions and disrupting their econ/tech. And of course, when they couldn't stop you from doing this, they would try to counter. And these counters would never succeed, because you are running off of 1 base, and short of defilers, which zerg could never reach in peace, there was no way they were successfully countering a 1 base terran.

One can argue that this is also due to Boxer and the trend started by him simply believing that aggressive play can accomplish the job well enough and the overall neglect for economics. However, ask yourself why Boxer still sticks to 1 base builds to this day. Why did Boxer stick with this style even after Nada pushed an expansion much earlier (though much later than oov would)? It's because Boxer can create a game flow where the battles are decided with small unit aggression, where he reigns supreme. Any earlier attempt at expanding would put him in peril to zerg counters, and it would not be necessary to do this if he could control the gameflow.



This is also one of the reasons why July/oov was so exciting to watch. oov was aggressive economically, July aggressive offensively. Economic aggression has never been fully appreciated/examined, and this lack of understanding is one of the reasons that oov was so hatable until Nostalgia set in.

Look at the gamechanging, very similar to Bisu vs Savior, game of oov vs July on Nostalgia (1st set): "The game that broke the streak." The only reason oov died to that attack was because he was projecting the illusion of force with his initial group that got killed and July hit in a timing window where no zerg had done. oov was taking very considerable risk doing this, for not only did he expand early when Zergs were accustomed to being more aggressive rather than mass expoing, but he also was using his initial m&m to 'threaten' July when he was actually in no position to do any damage to July. oov's mental play backfired; July was too new for him, and undercut his old timing and thoughts completely. Boxer would not have lost that way. Nada would not have lost that way.

One of the best examples of oov's economic aggression is the, much underloved, oov vs Nada HanaFos MSL finals. While the only vod remaining is game 4 on Detonation, it still shows a lot about oov. On Detonation and up 2-1, Nada double proxy raxed oov and bunker rushed, while oov lifted off his rax while playing standard factory rush. oov somehow manages to hold off the intial rush, and tries to counterattack but is blocked while Nada lifts the raxes into oov's main and continues the harass. Nada's expo is nearly done when oov just started his, and is clearly ahead. oov, despite having lower troop count, immediately pressures Nada's nat, while double expanding after getting his nat mining. Nada is forced to react to oov's early pressure, and by the time he has enough troops to break oov's contain, oov's economic advantage has already kicked in and rolls him over. If that's not perfect play in a must-win situation, I don't know what is.

Game 5 was apparently a more extreme version of game 4 with Nada not gaining that early advantage to keep it reasonably close, but alas it along with the TG MSL LB finals vods no longer exist. It is quite a shame, because oov/nada is by far the best TvT rivalry in history, despite how one-sided it was. It was the ultimate example of intelligence vs raw skill.

Psychological understanding was why oov was so dominant. It is the reason why him and Savior were totally uncheesable, and while part of that was because they rightly share the title for "Best Defense," they also were so psychologically dominant that they were prepared for it at the right times. Just as it takes someone as smart as Boxer or Flash to cheese at the right times, it takes someone as smart as oov or Savior to see it coming every single time. For examples, look no further than rA vs oov on Requiem or Kingdom vs oov's whole final series. Similarly, oov's hidden expansions did not succeed because of luck, they worked because he outthought his opponents.

But oov's psychological play was certainly not limited to in-game strategy. It was his cocky, abrasive attitude that originally attracted the hate bandwagon, but this was just a mental ploy.


oov a response to a question on his cocky and confident attitude"Yes, on purpose, so does in interviews. E-sports is Mind-sports. Practice is important, while some factors outside the stage weigh much as well. As a progamer, I should be polite to media and fans, but I don't want to show the impression of weakness to people. I'm always confident of winning, so I express my confidence, which is helpful to the matches in my opinion."


oov vs July Shinhan finals is another great example of the wonders of mental preparation. Only one of two finals ever won on pure mental domination, the other being Flash vs Stork Bacchus, oov trounced his old enemy July in 3 mostly one-sided games.

[image loading]

The real reason for oov's victory over July. Outeating him by stealing Midas's food.


oov's use of interviews"I always used interviews strategically. That’s why I would mock my opponents, or pretend to be strong. I thought all of that was momentum, and I would even ask my fans to post things on message boards like “ILoveoov is really good” etc. When I played JulyZerg in the Starleague final, I thought mentality was particularly important. Honestly, I was scared and nervous. After I admitted he was a strong opponent and said honestly what I felt, I was able to go into the game with confidence and get a good result."


Many people blamed oov's victory on maps, but that was nothing of the sort. oov won on what people believed to be the imbalanced Cultivation Period; although July said he had found an answer and oov felt that the maps "had many zerg favoring aspects," with a sparks rush, designed to set the tone for the rest of the series and pre-empt whatever strategy July had planned. And set the tone he did. July's post-game interview shows exactly how big of an effect this was:

"I had practiced immensely for the match but after I lost the first game disappointingly I couldn't show what I had prepared. The reason I lost is because I never managed to do what I had in mind...I had come with a strategy I had prepared tearing my hair out. After I had lost the first game so shamefully I felt numb from there on even in the second game."


And oov agrees in a response to the outcome of the 2nd game:

"The second game would’ve been very difficult. I was able to win with both the psychological advantage and momentum I gained from winning the first game."


It is quite likely that this mental destabilization was the cause of July's uncustomary mistake in game 2 and poor army positioning in game 3, although game 3 oov also did a very intelligent upgrade rush to counter July's intelligent counter to fast expansion play. The effect of oov's bitter lesson to July is quite pronounced. In July's next finals vs Best, two and a half years later, July opens with a 5 pool to set the stage.


End of an Era


oov to me was the triumph of intelligence over mechanics. His apm was under 250, his micro often sloppy, his macro mechanics/multitasking good but not exceptional. If you want proof of that, just check out oov vs Yellow game 3. oov gains an amazing lead, and then nearly throws it away with the worst micro ever seen in a final. Only oov could get away with this. Of course he had solid micro at times, and his marine spread vs July on IntotheDarkness was one of the best pimpest plays ever, but in general, oov did not rely on his micro at all. If he microed well, great, but it was not essential for him to win.

Even after his Shinhan OSL and WCG '06 win, oov still managed to show some of the old brilliance. While the old master no longer had the motivation to put out the dominating success as in his past, he nevertheless was able to show it in isolated incidents. Check the vods list at the end for links to games vs FBH and DarkElf.

Above all else, this is reason for oov's success:

"The way I play is to create a pattern where I have an advantage, and then crush my opponents with momentum. That way my opponent can’t play with 100% of his skill. That’s why I think mind-games are more important than skill."



The true Gorilla


[image loading]

How Gorillas celebrate.


While oov originally got his gorilla nickname for his long stature and lanky build, I have discovered long forgotten evidence that proves he really is a Gorilla.

"Yes, I am a cheapskate. I don't buy my teammates a drink or something usually. There are only 3 times I paid the bill. The first time I treated them some bananas and milk..."


Yes you read that right, bananas and milk. oov does not treat to expensive dinners, oov treats to bananas. Is there any doubt that oov is a gorilla now? If there is, just look at this:

[image loading]

give oov banana. oov macro. oov win. You know the deal.



If you still have doubt, this will solve all questions. Ok not really, but oov is the master of hilarious faces.

[image loading]

The oov face, need I say more?




Putting his gorilla nature aside, there are even more interesting aspects to oov. Bonjwa is not the only exclusive group that oov belongs to; he is also one of the very few progamers to be married. oov's uniqueness clearly shows here, for he never veered into the "path of night," and was able to maintain a relationship throughout his entire career as a pro.

[image loading]

iloveoov's exceptional path



iloveoov, Coach and Prophet


[image loading]


When oov retired in early 2008, people were noticeably disappointed that they would no longer get to see him work his magic. But for oov, coaching was just another way to showcase his brilliance.

"When I thought about being a coach, I thought I would be making build-orders myself, and teaching them to other players. I figured I would still be a trend-setter, just that I wouldn’t be on TV anymore"


Note that this interview was taken shortly after he became a coach back in Feburary. In 7 or so months, oov has invented a strategy that threatens to overturn modern tvz. When people had been doubting if there was anything left to innovate, oov comes back to prove them silly. Rather than saying anything here about 'the strat,' I will point you to this amazing article by Day.

+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=80595


This is all the more striking because TvZ is one of the most stable matchups in history. Look at the previous TvZ trends: Boxer- 1 base fast tech with constant harass; oov- 2 rax expand; Boxer- Bunker rush; and now, oov- 1 base vulture drop into FE valkyrie+mech. Of course there are smaller ones, like Sync's 3 rax +1 sunk break or Flash's map specific mech, but these are the overall builds that have transformed the matchup completely and can be used even if your opponent knows its coming.

As a sidenote, can anyone possibly doubt that if these two played any other race, that race would be the most dominant in SC history? Yes, including random.

"I told all the terrans on the team that I want to train a winner, and make terran an important part of the team again. If there are no prospects, then I’ll have to find some new ones. Right now, Fantasy has the most potential. His strength is that he absorbs things very quickly, but his weakness is that he is too introverted. But we can change that."


How amusing this is when looking at the present situation. Fantasy, having completely demolished GGplay with oov's build, is looking at the finals with the heir of Yellow. In just 8 months, complete transformation from a nobody to an almost royal roader. And you're looking at the reason right here.

[image loading]

He's back!



Stork before the OSL Finals said "I will think of the finals as a match not only against Fantasy but also Coach Choi, which will push me to prepare even harder."


Has any coach ever had this effect? What other coach is practiced and thought against extensively by opponents? Has any coach been credited with a build that may turn a very stable matchup up on its head? There is no question that nobody understands the mental situation of the finals better than oov. And when people say that this is just because oov is a former, elite pro, I will point you in the direction of Kingdom. Hey Kingdom, you still around? Haven't heard a word about you since you've become a coach.

The changes to SKT1 since oov has become coach have become quite noticeable. The departure of Boxer in 2006, slump of Midas, and loss of motivation for oov spelled doom for the team in 2007. It shows in their record: in r1, they were a paltry 8th at 9-13. In r2, they upped that by going 9th at 8-14. For the most successful team that proleague had ever seen, this was an unthinkinable low.

And the difference was striking. The very first season oov was coach, SKT1 zoomed up to 2nd place at the exact opposite record, 14-8, and if not for Bisu randomly sucking in his best matchup, they would've been in the finals. While they are not doing too hot so far this current season due to zerg favoring maps and their zergs going for the longest losing streak possible (0-10 so far), the team is far more motivated and from their interviews, I doubt they will have any problem fixing it.

oov is back now, his motivation is here, especially with Boxer returning, it would be hardly surprising to see oov own again, even at a lesser scale. While some may dismiss him as going the path of Garimto, I believe that as long as he can overcome his wrist, oov will return again. This is one person who lives up to his goals, no matter what the pressure on him. And his goals are high.

"I wanted to make a team that Boxer wouldn’t be ashamed of. So when I signed my contract, I didn’t even look at the money. I just left that to the team. There’s about a year and a half left, and I want to enter the army as someone I can be proud of."



NaDa

+ Show Spoiler +
On January 29 2008 21:51 Plexa wrote:
Letter to the Sky

[image loading]


Before the crisis

2005 had started brilliantly for Nada. Despite losing a bo7 MSL grand final to Gorush in YATGK MSL, he came back to defeat Gorush in the IOPS semifinals and then went on to win the finals over July in a convincing 3-0. Then things started to go wrong.

[image loading]

A shitstorm was just around the corner


Nada had qualified as a seed for both MSL and OSL and a 2/1 finish respectively meant that he was the heavy favourite to destroy in the upcoming season. But as per the OSL curse, he went 1-2 in his group and failed to qualify for the Ro8 in EVER 2005 OSL. But the real snag came in the form of Savior. As mentioned in my very first blog, the game showed a solution to Nada's SK terran style for Zergs and signaled the coming a tragic year.

[image loading]


Nada would then lose to Yellow in the loser bracket of Uzoo MSL and to Pusan in the Daum Direct ODT Rnd 2. Thus, Nada would be absent from both major leagues for the next season. But thankfully, he was still around from the Snickers All-Star tournament. On the 16th of July he would fight Yellow for the title, and came up short 2-3 (as written in my blog). But the worst was just around the corner.

[image loading]


On the 18th of July 2005, FiFo reported that Nada's dad had been killed in a car accident. An intoxicated driver preformed an illegal U-turn and collided with Nada's dad.

Life after Death

[image loading]


Nada was withdrawn from the P&C roster for the next two months giving him time to come to terms with what had transpired. The funeral service was held on the 20th of July and was said to be a particularly moving ceremony. All of P&C showed up to the funeral in support of Nada.

About 2 weeks later, Nada posted a poem on his fan cafe. The poem was originally translated by SpAnK[eM] and is in the format that Nada wrote the poem in.

Letter to the Sky

hi this is nada~..
hows ur life goin'?
i am drunk today too~
i am living life with drinks nowdays
u know when u drink, u feel better?
i was walking in the rain after having drinks with friend in the cafe

like...

the rain that is...
father's tear..

my dad always wanted to do some business...
had many failures because of those tries...
but before all those failures
he wanted the happiness of our family...
but... he couldnt...
no... because of that 1 guy...

my dad was very healthy...
very healthy... my dad was very strong...
he wasnt skinny like me
he was big..
and strong..
he never lost vs people
and when we were living in the name of poor
my father fought with gansters only with his 2 hands...

oneday my mother came back home with all bruises over her face
my dad grabbed a metal pipe
and gone to the corporation ..
he leaped over the fence to revenge for my mom...
its like that...
thats how much he loved our family
and thats how strong he was...

but.....

the 1 guy .... drinking driving... and by illegial U-turn
dad is in the sky now...
this ...
this isnt a destiny.. its an error of destiny...
an error of the sky...
the error that never supposed to be happend...

ha.........i still feel empty...
but not a long ago... when i walked in the rain...
i felt it..
it was like...
my father's tear

i...nada...
think i have to get brave back...

i talked with my friends in Gumi(state of korea)... alot of talk...
everyone is living a hard life...
i felt it now...

i realized how happy life i am living while talking with my friends...
i realize it now... now... now i realize...

yes i have to wake up again...
having no practice now is killing me...

if i go back to seoul...
practice hard... so no one can beat me...

and for sure... i will dedicate all those winnings and honors to ..
my father...

i..
im going back ...

dont worry...

im going back to the real nada...

so








remember







i will take care of my family dad..






Return to Star

[image loading]


Nada's first game back was against Nal_ra in ODTR1. He dominated Nal_ra with a pure macro oriented style, lost to Cloud in the winners game, then defeated Nal_ra once more in a similar fashion. Whats important was that even though he had gone through intense tragedy, Nada was able to pull out a win and get through to the next round.

[image loading]


Unfortunately, Nada couldnt get much further. He slumped badly in Proleauge and lost 0-2 in ODT Round 2 and 0-2 in the 7th MBC Survivor. He finished out the year with a roughly 50% win rate in Proleauge, but there was something more special he did in the last months of the year.

Many of you will be familiar with the 'Make a Wish' Foundation who try to give terminally ill children one day where they can leave their illness behind and enjoy life. Nada, still dealing with the ordeal of his dad's death, did one of the most noble and honorable things a progamer has ever done, he got involved with the charity.

Nada began to work alongside the foundation and helped out their cause by volunteering himself to take some kids out during December of 2005 to treat them to a day of unparalleled joy.
Show nested quote +
"the experience even though it will be a short one for him, will forever change him. There is nothing more gut wrenching and noble than what he is about to do, he has courage."
- Entropy
Nada was inspired by the death of his Dad to reach out and help other people. When posed with the question about why he wanted to get involved in an interview he said;
"Help before it is too late"

Help others, before they are gone from this world. Like the premature death of his father who was now gone forever from this world. This act earned a lot respect from me towards Nada, it is such an amazing thing to do for the world, especially after a tragedy which could have ruined his life. He turned the negative into a positive, the mark of a true champion.

Nada's dreams come true

Nada started 2006 with a bang - going on a 5 game winning streak and passing the first stage of the 8th MSL Survivor. Then, thanks to an expanded league, Nada defeated Shark and Nal_ra in i-Station Dual tournament to qualify for Shinhan 2 OSL. At the same time he qualified for Pringles 2 MSL - Nada was back into both major leagues.

[image loading]


Nada's Shinhan 2 OSL run is something legendary. He 3-0'd his group (containing Light, Zergman and Jy). Went 2-1 against TT, 2-0'd Zergman, 3-0'd Goodfriend and found himself in the finals for a Golden Mouse. (Vods are at the end). His opponent? Anytime[gm] - a protoss abusing the legend of the fall to get to the finals.

[image loading]


After one of the most intense finals in a long time, Nada walked away victorious. He had achieved his goal and won in his fathers name - he had answered his Letter to the Sky.

+ Show Spoiler [Interview] +
천재는 달랐다. 위기 순간에 더욱 빛나는 전략을 선보였고, 승리를 거뒀다. 이윤열은 경기가 끝나자 아버지의 이름을 불렀다. 하늘에 계시는 아버지께서 그를 도왔다. 이제 이윤열의 시대가 열렸다.
The Prodigy was different. He coordinated an astonishing strategical move in a time of danger, and won. He called out his father's name, after the match. His father aided him all the way. Now, the era of Lee Yoonyeol has begun.

-골드 마우스를 차지했다.
-You have secured the Golden Mouse.
▶우승하고 눈물을 흘리긴 처음이다. 내 인생에서 최고의 날이다. 너무 기쁘다. 이렇게 기뻤던 날이 없었다. 밑에까지 내려갔다가 다시 올라오는 것이 이렇게 힘들지 몰랐다. 제주도에 이렇게 많은 팬들이 모일 줄 몰랐다. 너무 고맙다.
▶It's my first time shedding tears after winning the league. This is the best day of my life. I am so happy. I have never been happier. I never knew it would be this hard to climb all the way back to the top after having hit rock bottom. I also did not expect so many fans in Jaeju Island. I am very grateful.

-어머니께서 참석한 결승전에서 승리한 것은 처음이다.
-It is your first time winning the Finals where your mother has attended.
▶어머니께서 오셔서 우승한 것은 처음이다. 이 자리에 못 오셨지만 이번 우승만큼은 전부 아버지께 드리겠다. 앞으로는 어머니에게만 잘 할 것이다.
▶Yes, it is my first time winning the Finals, with my mother seated as the audience. But, for this very victory, I give it all to my father, though he didn't make it. From now on, I will do my best for my mother.

-4세트 패한 후 기분은 어땠나.
-How did you feel after you lost the fourth set.
▶4세트에 자신이 많았다. (오)영종이가 너무 잘해서 5세트가 긴장됐다. 전략을 두 개 준비했는데 마지막 세트에서 쓴 것은 필살기였다. 1시 위치를 마음 속으로 빌었는데 1시 위치가 나와 승리의 여신이 내게 미소 짓는 것 같았다.
▶I had much confidence in the fourth set. (Oh) Youngjong was too good, and made me nervous in the fourth set. I had prepared 2 strategical plots(for Tau Cross), and the one I used in the last set was a deathblow move. When I hoped to be placed at 1 o'clock, and was actually placed at 1, I knew the goddess of triumph was smiling at me.


-5세트에서 드롭을 지속적으로 시도했다.
-You consistently tried dropship attacks in the fifth set.
▶이리저리 흔들다 보면 페이스가 내게 오는 전략이었다. 절대 유리한 상황이었다. 승리를 확신했고, GG를 선언한 (오)영종이의 판단은 옳았다. 스타게이트를 올린 것도 자신이 불리하다고 생각한 것 같다.
▶That strategical move eventually grants me advantage as long as I consistently attack, harassing the opponent. (Oh) Youngjong's decision to surrender GG was the correct choice. He must have thought he was going to lose, seeing he built Stargate.

-골드 마우스를 획득한 첫 선수다.
-You are the first to secure the Golden Mouse.
▶너무 골드 마우스에 욕심을 내다보면 질 것 같았다. 결승이라는 마지막 순간에 골드 마우스에 대한 모든 생각을 지웠다. 우승한 뒤에 할 행동만 생각했고, 골드 마우스는 잊었다.
▶I was afraid I will lose focusing solely on the Golden Mouse. At the very last moment in the Finals, I wiped out all my obsessions directed at Golden Mouse. I only thought how I'd react after winning the match, and forgot about the Golden Mouse.

-가슴에 우승배지를 세 개 달았다.
-You have attached three Starleague Champion Badges on your chest.
▶아무리 무겁더라도 좋다. 충분히 자부심을 가지고 있다. 100개가 되도 유니폼에 달고 싶다. 유니폼만 봐도 우승자라는 것을 알게 되지 않겠나.
▶I love it, no matter how heavy they may be. I have plenty esteem for them. I want them on my chest, even they number to be 100. All people will know I am the champion just by looking at my uniform.

-최근 포스가 대단하다.
-Your current force is amazing.
▶한 동안 PC방 예선에 머물렀을 때 다시 전성기 기량이 돌아올까 걱정했는데 이번에 스타리그 우승을 거두면 다시 전성기를 찾을 것으로 생각했다. 또 자신감을 찾았다.
▶Having stooped low lingering in PSL preliminaries, I worried if my prime stats will be back at all. But, I thought they are to be regained by winning this Starleague. I also have regained my confidence.

-최근 팬카페에 쓴 글이 화제다.
-Your recent notes you have wrote in your fan cafe's draw much attention.
▶팬카페에 글을 쓸 때에는 자신감이 있기 때문에 쓰는 것이다. 좋은 향기가 나네요 승리를 부르는 이것은 자신감이다. 팬들에게 ‘지켜봐 달라’는 메시지다.
▶Whenever I write something there, it is because I am confident. It's all about confidence. It's also a message to the fans saying "Please, do watch me closely".

-‘포스트 임요환’ 1순위로 꼽혔다.
-You have been chosen to be no 1 'Post Lim Yohwan'.
▶임요환을 최고로 존경하는 생각만큼은 변하지 않는다. 그러나 그의 뒤를 이어 바통을 받는다면 바로 오늘이라 생각했다. 이제 바통을 이어 받은 것 같다. 최고의 선수가 될 수 있도록 노력하겠다.
▶The idea of utterly respecting Lim Yohwan as the best does not change. However, if I were to ascend his greatness at all, I thought it'd be today. I will strive to become the best progamer.

-아이옵스 스타리그와 현재의 자신의 모습을 비교한다면.
-If you were to compare yourself in IOPS Starleague, and now.
▶연습 방법부터 달랐다. 아이옵스 스타리그에서는 자신감만 있었지만 지금 현재는 자신감뿐 아니라 승리에 대한 확신이 든다. 그러나 아직 부족하다. 예전에는 자만심도 있었지만 이제는 그러면 안 된다 생각한다.
▶The methodical approach in practice games was already different. I had only confidence in IOPS Starleague, but now not only do I have confidence but also assurance that I will win. Still, I need more work. I was too confident in the past, but now I know I should not be.

-팀에 잡음이 많았다.
-There are many rumors in the team.
▶창단 멤버다. 애정이 많다. 잡음은 외부에서만 들렸으면 좋겠다. 나는 내 할일(우승)만 한다면 모든 결과가 좋아질 것이다.
▶I have been in this team from the very beginning. I hope all the rumors stay outside. As long as I do what I do(winning leagues) all the outcome will be ok.

-가족과 제주도 여행을 계획하지 않았나.
-Did you not plan a Jaeju Island vacation with your family.
▶이번 8강전에서 1패를 먼저 한 뒤 결승전이 제주도에서 한다는 사실을 가족들에게 알렸다. 그러면서 제주도에 모두 내려가자고 말했다. 그때엔 결승까지 확정된 것도 아니었지만 그 말 때문에 한 발, 한 발 오를 수 있었다. 가족들이 있다고 생각하니 더 떨렸다.
▶After I lost the first game in R8, I told my family the finals are held in Jaeju Island. And, I said to them we should all go there. I was not in the finals back then, but by saying it out loud, I was able to climb up step by step. I was more nervous thinking that my family was right next to me.

-앞으로의 목표와 각오가 있다면.
-Your resolutions and goals in the future.
▶다시 돌아온 전성기를 오래 이끌고 싶다. 더 많은 연습을 하고 나와 팬들에게 실망스러운 경기를 보여주고 싶지 않다. 차기 시즌에서 우승자징크스를 내 손으로 깨고 싶다. 언제나 목표는 우승이다.
▶I wish to lead my current primal era as long as possible. I want to avoid performing disappointing games in front of the fans by spending more time in practices. I want to break the Champion Curse in the next season. My goal is to win, always.

-다음 조 지명식에서 지명하고 싶은 선수가 있다면.
-Do you have any particular athlete you want to pick in the next group decision day.
▶(최)연성이형이 듀얼 토너먼트에서 반드시 올라왔으면 한다. 아직 복수할 것이 많이 남아 있다. 내가 우승을 하면 꼭 올라온다 했으니 올라 올 것이다.
▶I hope (Choi) Yunsung hyung will make it (to Starleague) from Dual Tournament. I have much to avenge him. He will surely make it, because he promised me he will if I win the league.

-고마운 사람들이 많을텐데.
-You must have many to whom you're grateful.
▶매 경기마다 두뇌회전을 도와준다며 초콜렛을 사다 준 이광수 코치님이 너무 감사하다. 또 연습을 도와 준 삼성전자 허영무, KTF 강 민, MBC게임 김택용이 너무 고맙다. 물론 팀원들이 가장 고맙다.
▶I thank the assistant coach Lee Gwangsoo who brought me chocolate every single match saying it helps the brain to function better. Also, to Hu Youngmoo(Samsung), Kang Min(KTF), and Kim Taekyoung(MBCgame) for the practice games. Of course, I am most grateful to my team members.

-오영종에게 한 마디
-Your words to Oh Youngjong
▶영종이였기 때문에 내 우승이 이렇게 빛날 수 있었다. 24강 때부터 결승에서 만나자고 말을 많이 했다. 16강까지는 같이 연습도 했다. e스포츠 발전을 위해 같이 힘을 내자고 말했는데 그대로 이룰 수 있어서 너무 기쁘다. 영종이에게 고맙다
▶My championship shines more brightly only because Youngjong is on the other side. We shared conversations from as early as R24, that we should meet in the finals. We practiced with eachother until R16. We told eachother we should try harder to improve the E-sports, and I am happy to have done as we have said it. I give much thanks to Youngjong.


[image loading]


To me, this story remains one of the the most touching in progaming. After stumbling across Nada's poem, i was overcome with emotion and knew that this blog needed to be written for all the Nada fanboys out there. And if you come to my blog for games, i will not disappoint, here are Nada's vods from Shinhan 2 OSL.

Group Stages
vs Light
vs Zergman
vs Jy

Ro16 (vs TT)
Game 1
Game 2
Game 3

Ro8 (vs Zergman)
Game 1
Game 2

Semifinals (vs Goodfriend)
Game 1
Game 2
Game 3

Finals (vs Anytime)
Game 1
Game 2
Game 3
Game 4
Game 5

[image loading]
These are for you, Dad




sAviOr

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Symphony of Destruction-The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of an Absolute Legend.
By DoctorHelvetica.
TeamLiquid: Final Edits
"Music's exclusive function is to structure the flow of time and keep order in it." - Igor Stravinsky

"I've never seen such timing, such precision, such masterful control before. What happened to him and when is it over?"-irl friend on Ma Jae Yoon.


How can a human stand against a God?-TheTyranid, commentating on hyvaa vs sAviOr


Is he really back? Is it really him? The Maestro that changed the game forever?-Myself when told of Bisu's defeat.


Dominance in C Minor


The Maestro walks onto the stage, spotlight in his eyes, absorbing the vibrations of an excited crowd. His tuxedo is sharp, the CJ Entus logo gleaming off his sleeve. He takes a bow. "An original composition," He informs the crowd the title of the piece, "ZvT in F Minor." The crowd roars, this song is a hit. It's 2006 and The Maestro, Ma Jae Yoon is the best progamer in the world. Very few composers were even a slight challenger to the fame of Jae Yoon, but even conductors like Jin Yung Soo couldn't steal his glory.

From a seat in the audience once could see the cool confidence of this young Maestro. Contrary to the decorum of an opera hall, hundreds of girls scream. "MA JAE YOON HWAITING!". Indeed, he is a superstar, the Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart of his generation. He has the bravada and the skill required to be a deity of this art, and he earned every bit of credit he gets.

He raises his baton and begins the music. The tempo is quick, the movements are sharp and precise. The song paints a picture of domination and complete victory, and as the conductor waves his baton with a confident smirk, the world of e-sports lives with fear in its heart. Nothing could stop Ma Jae Yoon, it seemed his dominance would continue forever. As the flutes played their trills , zerglings enveloped the many cities of the Terran federation. As the trumpets blared, hydralisks spat down a lone shuttle on the hills of Aiur. As the cellos moved the hearts of man, mutalisks tore apart a renegade cerebrate and his army.


[image loading]

It feels good to be the best.


He had dethroned the kings of yesteryear and no-one could call him anything less than "Ma Bonjwa". It seemed like centuries since (T)BoxeR, (T)NaDa, and (T)iloveoov controlled the scene. For the first time ever, the Swarm was in control; they had an emperor of their own. Hell's orchestra was playing the dirge of every commander who would dare have the audacity to challenge the might of the swarm. There was no stopping him now. The year of the destroyer has arrived.

Ma Jae Yoon's impeccable timing and game sense kept him leagues ahead of everyone else in the game. He defended against entire terran armies with a handful of lurkers and zerglings. He destroyed countless SCV's with his mutalisks and his fast hive build left terrans bewildered and destroyed. What he lacked in mechanics he made up for in an almost eerie sense and understanding of the game. Watching sAviOr play in 2006 was like seeing a man look into the future.

Defeating NaDa in the Shinhan OSL was his crescendo, his masterpiece, his coup de grace. With three MSL victories and an OSL win under his belt, he was approaching the record of legends like Choi Yeong Sung and Lee Yoon Yeol. Could he do it? How long would he dominate? Maybe he'll win a golden mouse too. These were the thoughts of many sAviOr fans in 2007.

+ Show Spoiler +
Ma Jae Yoon: At the Top

From 2005-2007, no name struck fear in the hearts of men like that of (Z)sAviOr. He was the best damn player on earth, with 3 MSL titles and an OSL victory under his belt, who could stop him?

Domination...

A young zerg making a name for himself.

No match-up was hard for this guy.



The Revolution

[image loading]

A challenger appears.



There's a new composer in town. His name is Kim Taek Yong, and his concerts are starting to draw more attendees. Our beloved Maestro, Ma Jae Yoon just doesn't seem to compose like he used to. This younger generation, spearheaded by the protoss Bisu are getting all the attention. However, Ma Jae Yoon remains one of the best among the composers, and sits firmly upon the zerg throne. It's discouraging, but what could stop him for good?

Surely he could hold onto his dominance and boy did he try. Furiously writing songs and performing at every venue he could, there was no effort spared. But the harder he pushed, the harder things seemed to push back at him. It was the image of Taek Yong. It haunted him; and if he couldn't conquer his own ghosts, he could never conquer the world like he did once before.

Ma Jae Yoon soon finds his concerts getting bad reviews, and Kim Taek Yong begins drawing more and more attendees every show. Ma Jae Yoon is discouraged and tries writing again. However, his muse is lost! He cannot find the inspiration to write like he used to. The raw emotion and passion of his youth had faded, and the distraction of competitors was taking its toll. His confidence broken, his genius faded, he slipped into the abyss. Would he ever play well again?



The era of the revolution was a long and dark one for the swarm. Bisu's ingenious reinventing of Daezang's PvZ build changed the metagame completely. It knocked sAviOr of the bonjwa throne, turned PvZ into a matchup the Protoss felt safe playing, brought back Kang Min's Sair/Reaver build, it won 2 MSL's. Yes, Bisu revolutionized PvZ by taking Daezang's build and making it viable on all maps. The Forge FE, into DT/Sair confused zergs, and with the new macro style of protosses (Bisu, Stork, Anytime) the build was extremely popular for a long amount of time.

In these days Protoss builds are classified into two categories. "Light" and "Dark". Dark Protoss (Kingdom, BeSt, Bisu) tend to go for the bisu build in PvZ, favoring units such as Dark Templars and Arbiters. Light Protoss favor Sair/Reaver, using units like Reavers and Carriers (Stork, Jangbi, Free). Today, Bisu is still at the forefront of the Protoss force, leading the revolution against the swarm. While players like Free, KaL, and JangBi might have shiny new PvZ (The +1 Archon push is pretty popular), Bisu is the man who started it all.

+ Show Spoiler +
Ma Jae Yoon: Stagnation



These videos should be a familiar sight to any StarCraft fan. The infamous 3-0 defeat of sAviOr in the 2007 GomTV MSL. The games speak for themselves. This is the beginning of stagnation, but rock bottom has yet to occur...


Savior- While I was interviewing after my loss to Bisu[shield] in the MSL finals, I saw one of my fans crying in the far corner. It really hurt me. I'll never be able to forget her.



The Legend Killer

[image loading]

Hi, my name is Cho. Meet your replacement.

It's late 2007 and Ma Jae Yoon grows worried about his falling ability. "Why can't I write a good song?" he asks himself. The growing ability of his young apprentice, Lee Jae Dong worries him. Still a young boy, Jae Dong composes with the same fire and zeal Jae Yoon had only months before. Why couldn't Jae Yoon do anything right? His seat on the Zerg throne was slipping, and he knew that the day when his apprentice took up the position grew nearer. He slips deep into a depressive slump, not composing anything. Allowing the rage to build inside of him.

Lee Jae Dongs compositions invoke the terror and darkness that Ma Jae Yoon once had in his music. Jae Dong wrote in a style so aggressive and dominant, it made Ma Jae Yoon seem like the songwriter for a garage punk band. Lee Jae Dong was Stravinsky, he was Wagner, he was Bach. A new era of young composers took the spotlight, Kim Taek Yong was seemingly just a fad. Lee Young Ho, Song Byung Gyu, and Lee Jae Dong ruled the concert world.

For Ma, his fans have all but given up on him. The loyal men who remember the days in which Ma Jae Yoon stood proudly upon the mountain of gods, waving his silver baton at the weak mortals who dare challenge him remember his potential. They remember that this was a man who had much more than just skill. What he had was magic. But the void in their hearts grew, and thus their faith in him was less. It seemed it could not get any worse.


Along with his demotion to B-Team, (Z)sAviOr did not even qualify for the starleagues in 2008-2009. Demoted to the B-Team, he was doomed to be a practice partner for the players he would have chewed up only 6 months before. The Maestro was out of the light and one could rest assured that all hope for the maestro to win was lost. The era of "Ma Bonjwa" was over. His anti-fans could finally rejoice, their players stood a chance.

Ma Jae Yoon lost games to many no-name players, for a multitude of embarrassing reasons. Jaedong changed the zerg metagame to a highly aggressive mid-game, ending with a management focused late-game. Ma Jae Yoon was among many of the zergs without the brilliant mechanics required for this playstyle, it seemed it was a dark time for the swarm. Zergs like Luxury and Jaedong, with brilliant mechanics and dull minds rules the scene, and players like sAviOr and GoRush contributed little to the throng of victories.

Ma Jae Yoon's game sense seemed to have waned with his confidence. Perhaps distracted by his constant assurance that he would lose, he forgot simple things like Adrenal Glands. He forgot timings, he forgot build orders, he forgot how to play StarCraft. It seemed like he didn't care. Perhaps the self-fufilling prophecy was that "I know I'm going to lose, so why try?". Players improved and perhaps sAviOr was too intimidated by them to really dominate. It seemed definite that sAviOr would not dominate again. Comebacks were rare in StarCraft and usually ended up embarassing, much like GARIMTO's attempt to be dominant again. The year of the destroyer ended.

[image loading]

A good year for the younger Jae

But the year of the legend killer began. Lee Jae Dong won the EVER 2007 OSL, and the following GOMtv MSL, cementing his place in history as a starleague champion. Jaedong absolutely dominated the starleagues, along with his rival FlaSh, and won an additional silver in the Arena MSL. Jaedong still is a frightening opponent to face and is the undisputed champion of the zerg race at this time. Ranked #1 in Kespa for a long time, Lee Jae Dong is a zerg player that will go down in history.

+ Show Spoiler +
Ma Jae Yoon: Rock Bottom
Losing games left and right, (Z)sAviOr is but a husk of the dominator he was before. Humiliated not only be constant losses, but by demotion within his own team, it seemed that the once undisputed StarCraft King, would never return.

Being humiliated by the likes of firebathero doesn't help much either.

sAviOr tries desperately but can't close the wins like he used to.

Being destroyed by Leta, who at the time was a no-name.

Savior: You must experience everything. Words are empty, you must experience them yourself. However, I still think it will be hard for me to get back in shape even. Honestly, I don't remember how it feels to be good again and I want that feeling back. But it will be hard.


Brilliance Regained

[image loading]


Much to the surprise of everyone, Ma Jae Yoon has been writing a new symphony these days. A symphony that encompasses the fury and passion of his youth, and the intensity of his current despair. After losing so much, he would finally manifest his desire, his passion, and emerge as a victor over his own demons. He entered the Anaheim concert hall, began the music, and the crowd was stunned. There are whispers in the halls. "Is he back?", "The Maestro?". While The Maestro continues performing, even now, what may be his final and glorious masterpiece, he leaves us with a few words that can only signal a return to his former brilliance.


Those words rung out through the halls of the Anaheim Convention Center and brought the adoring crowd to a frenzy. Immediately I knew the irc, the forums, and my friends would be abuzz with the words of the destroyer. Ma Jae Yoon pulled through, beating NaDa in the finals to win Blizzcon. It seemed that sAviOr hadn't won anything in centuries, it was a pleasant surprise to fans of the maestro. Those words rung in the head of every player who was ever eaten alive by the swarm. It was a promise. It was hope. It was a warning. It was destruction.

For the coming months the fanboys let loose cries of "2009!" at every upcoming sAviOr game. Ma Jae Yoon won his proleague games in the following weeks, stirring up the hype, pumping up the fan base. However his wins against TT and Yarnc didn't speak to his ability to dominate, and some fans -myself included- worried that he would just be a proleague wonder, unable to perform in the Star League.

+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XogT3gTXpA
A very promising ZvT from sAviOr

End of the Bonjwa battle

The infamous interview


I will destroy everyone, ok? In 2009.


Coda

[image loading]

Good evening, Ladies and Gentlemen. In just a short while I'm going to destroy everyone.

The Maestro returns to the concert hall for his first performance in a long time. The crowd is silent with anticipation, they are eager to hear his newest symphony. The piece is titled "Dominance in C Minor", and when he raises the baton the audience draws a sharp breath. To their surprise, the music which emanates from the orchestra is more beautiful then anything they had heard from Ma Jae Yoson before. Kim Taek Yong gasps from back stage, knowing that he's just not going to be able to outshine a piece like this. Tears streak down the face of Ma Jae Yoon; he had done it. His last symphony was a strong one, and he would retire not as a has-been or a pathetic shadow of a former titan, but as a genius who ended his career just as strong as he began it. Welcome back Ma Jae Yoon, we missed you.



To any fan of the maestro, these past few weeks have been pure ecstasy. Defeating his arch-nemesis in the MSL, destroying the TvZ master UpMagiC, going on double three game win streaks in winners league, the maestro is back with a vengeance. He went on a nine game win-streak; defeating the likes of Leta, YARNC, Bisu, UpMagiC, Really, and ZerO. He is #1 on ICCUP, has topped his own personal win-streak, and contended in the Round of 8 for his 4th MSL title.

Defeating UpMagiC, the best mech TvZ in the world right now, in the Ro16 propelled sAviOr into the Ro8 against ZerO. Kim Myung Eun is one of the brightest young zergs and no match-up is better for him than ZvZ; the match-up that plagued sAviOr in the past, losing him an MSL against ChoJJa, the Cowboy Zerg.

ZvZ proved to be the thorn in sAviOr's side, he was eliminated 3:1 from the MSL. ZerO proved to be one of the bright young zergs following the example sAviOr set for them in 2006. Perhaps sAviOr will take from this experience a joy knowing that he set these brilliant young gamers on the path to glory, knowing that he invented modern zerg, knowing he began a dynasty. While perhaps he will never win another Star League, the Pro League has proven to be a venue he can perform in and there is no doubt we will continue to see impressive play from the former Bonjwa.

The zerg race is in a good position these days. Jaedong, ZerO, Luxury, YARNC, July, EffOrt, sAviOr, and hyvaa all playing brilliant games. The swarm will perhaps once again rule the earth. When it does, the credit will go to Ma Jae Yoon, the man behind it all. The genius, the revolutionist, the dictator, the maestro.

+ Show Spoiler +
Return of the Maestro


Masterful, breathtaking, and perfect ZvP by sAviOr. This is the maestro of old. sAviOr's impeccable sense of timing is apparent, zerglings arriving just in time, defending with the as few units as possible. Complete match control. Domination. Rivalry. Ecstasy.

ZerO, is one of the newer zergs. He has excellent muta control and has beaten the likes of Jaedong on ZvZ. The maestro, on a tear, isn't going to let this young upstart get in his way. And he doesn't.


sAviOr defeating the top TvZ right now. Amazing mutalisks. Amazing game.

sAviOr playing some excellent StarCraft against Leta, who is the #1 Proleague player of all-time.

sAviOr playing an excellent timing against YellOw[ARNC].

Thank you Two Eight Six for the awesome banner. Thanks to TeamLiquid writing staff for helping me. Thank you to sAviOr for inspiring me to make the original article.

Bisu

+ Show Spoiler +
On July 18 2007 20:51 Hot_Bid wrote:
<font size="4"><b>Revolutionary Magic</b></font>
by Hot_Bid
TeamLiquid: Final Edits


<center>[image loading]
The five month Protoss Revolution began in March (image by zxk3).</center>
It is a week before the GomTV MSL Final, and the fans were crowning a double champion. Savior had just dominated Nada in a Shinhan3 OSL Final that everyone, including Savior, had hyped and focused on quite a bit more. The Maestro, winner of two straight MSLs and in his fifth straight MSL Final, would walk over “his Protoss opponent.” The classification that was very telling. The Bisu/Ra semi was a mere formality, after all, they were just two Protoss, classified by their race and matchup, nameless except for their inevitable place next to the Zerg champion on the podium. No Protoss since Garimto had beaten a Zerg in a Starleague final. Reach and Ra had multiple chances and had always lost in unspectacular fashion.

It is a week before the GomTV MSL Final, and something was happening in the jungles of Thailand. We will never truly know why Bisu went on vacation a week before the Finals. There were two possible thought processes:
  • "I am a huge underdog in a really difficult series. I suppose I will try my best and whatever happens, I will be proud of how far I came."

  • "My name is Kim Taek Yong, commander of the Protoss, the prince who was promised, Dark Templar reborn. Leader of a disrespected race, victim of an imbalanced matchup, and I will have my vengeance in this MSL Final or the next."
Knowing what you know now, is there still any doubt as to what Bisu was thinking when he took that vacation?

Dominance has two requirements. Midas and recently Flash are good examples of players having a lot of one quality (mechanics) but very little of the other: the "magic" or "X-factor." It is that indescribable quality that you as the fan do not see but rather feel when watching a player who has it play.

Just as you can't dominate without it, you can't win with magic alone. Non-PvT Reach and to a lesser extent Garimto are examples of players whose great experience can take them far but not far enough. They do not currently have the technical skill to match the modern elite players. You simply need both qualities.

When mechanics and magic did converge, they produce players like 2004 Iloveoov, 2005 July, 4-badge Nada and Shinhan3 Savior. The convergence not only produced champions, but dominant ones.

A player’s confidence begins as a snowball rolling down a hill. It is a stream from a mountain peak or a baby tyrannosaur hatching from an egg. It is easily melted, diverted or even killed by the smallest of events at infancy. It needs to be nurtured and given time to grow. One bad experience at the wrong time in a player’s career and their magic will forever be lost, their confidence irreparably damaged. Dominance is unforgiving, and thus it is rare. To achieve it players must be not only be among the elite in technical skill but must walk a confidence minefield, vulnerable to circumstance and bad luck.

<center>[image loading]
The "magic" must be nurtured, preferably in Thailand.</center>
Yellow is the poster child for the sad story of being so close, literally with his fingers around the magic but never able to hang on. I firmly believe that had Yellow won that first Coca-Cola OSL Final against Boxer back in 2001 their places in history would be reversed. We would be talking about Zerg and Terran completely differently today. The two most significant players in Brood War history came to their biggest crossroads at the most fragile point in their careers. We did not know it then, but player-wise it was easily the most influential, historical moment in ProGaming history. So much came down to one game on Neo Hall of Valhalla. It is what made Boxer "Boxer" and Yellow "Yellow." One player left that game with the magic, one player did not.

It is forged in deciding Game 3s and Game 5s. As ProGaming developed, as parity reigned and "great" win percentages hovered in the 60%’s, that special quality became more and more elusive. It was just impossible to be consistent, especially for Protoss. Looking through the list of champions, there has never been a dominant Protoss, one who had the magic. Until now.

<center>

The series that shocked the world.</center>
Bisu is the most talented Protoss to come along in the history of professional Starcraft. His macro is the best. His micro is among the best. He has no weak matchups. He has one extremely strong matchup that is so far above every other Protoss in terms of quality and consistency that it’s laughable. Bisu has perfect, relentless scouting. Bisu successfully pushes the line between victory and defeat like no other player outside Savior.

But most of all, Bisu posseses the highest Protoss multitask ability. It is not even close. I have said this countless times but I will re-iterate. The "Beesuit Build" itself is not special. The build that beat Savior, the build that is basically a modified Protoss FE that slightly delays its storm and intermittently cuts probes for early DT/Corsair, is only good because Bisu does it. Other players have tried it and failed where Bisu succeeded. His Corsairs do not die. His DTs act like there is someone watching them at all times, finding holes that no other player can find. You could just drop the "-Build" part of that designation altogether and simply call it "Bisu," because it's all him.

But forget those last two paragraphs. What is special about Bisu is that in addition to his best-ever talent, he is 8-1 in elimination games in 2007, with the lone loss coming to Flash in the Daum OSL Ro8. It is part luck, part skill, part concentrated power of will, but somewhere along the line, Bisu got "it." He has the confidence now that he never did before, and with every successful do-or-die game win, his confidence and his magic grow.

Bisu is the Protoss chosen one. But worst of all for his opponents, he is finally starting to believe it.

<center>
[image loading]

TeamLiquid is also starting to believe it.</center>
You could see it in his comeback against Light in GomTV1, in his almost too good to be true 6-0 tear through GomTV1 semis and finals. You can see it in him calling Hwasin “insurance” in the Daum OSL group selection and then humiliating him with Scouts. Most of all, you can see it his clutch stasis against Stork in the decisive GomTV2 finals game 5.

Protoss dominance had arrived. Bisu, the Revolutionary, changed the game.

It is a week before the July-GoRush GomTV2 MSL quarterfinal. The winner would go on to face Bisu in the semifinals. The match was a mere formality, after all, they were just two Zerg.




The Heroless Age?


[image loading]

The Legacy Will End With Me


Despite his ambiguous bonjwa status, Bisu did shortly dominate the scene and display the charisma and presence expected of a BroodWar hero. Come 2008, we had several BroodWar monsters stomping around the scene, many "heroes" in a class of their own, far above the rest. Gone was the time when there was one king of the game, one "bonjwa", but rather a whole host of kings clashing with a ferocity and level of skill that no one would have imagined possible in the BoxeR era.

There was something mystical about the age of heroes that is now all but gone. While there are great plays, while magic does happen, most games are standard macro build against standard macro build. The "heroes" of today aren't wizards, gods, or magicians like Kingdom, Casy, and Chojja. They are robots capable of destroying any other player on any given day. There is a different intensity now, a different experience, and I would submit that it may be a bit less spectator friendly. Without statistics to substantiate it, I make my claim cautiously. By no means is the improved macro of players ruining the fun of StarCraft, it's just changing it. As far as I can see, the fun is a bit more technical, more suitable for those who have been in the scene and have a good understanding of the game.

Keep in mind there are many reasons for this. Iloveoov's macro revolution brought the game away from crazy and flashy micro builds to standardized macro heavy build orders capable of crushing the opponent with giant armies before they know what's happening. Compare the schedule of progamers now to progamers in the age of BoxeR and NaDa. In the age of heroes, BoxeR could sit down and practice for one series for an extended period of time. He could come up with genius builds to counter his opponents exact playing style, whereas now a player is far better suited to use one of many standard cookie-cutter builds and rely on his mechanics to get him a win. The modern player simply doesn't have the time in his schedule to come up with something totally unique, he only has time to win.

KTF's FlaSh dominated 2008 netting a GOM and OSL win, but was stopped short often in proleague by Jaedong, who won the MSL that year and the OSL in the previous year. Stork dominated everyone in early rounds of starleagues and was a proleague monster for Samsung KHAN. FlaSh and Jaedong that year stomped all over proleague and held a short lived but strong rivalry. Jaedong won the following GOM tournament, July made a surprise comeback into the OSL, and fOrGG dominated FlaSh and Jaedong in the MSL.

Who was bonjwa? Who was our king to be? Perhaps the era of revolution was over. Everything had been done, everything had been thought of. Now it was time for a younger generation with supreme mechanics to take the ideas of the old heroes, make small innovations, and battle with a level of skill that still blows my mind. The closest thing to a Bonjwa in this small period, FlaSh, was still vulnerable to an entire host of players. He consistently lost to players like Stork, Jaedong, fOrGG, and Bisu.

Jaedong is the best player of our era, there's no denying. While I feel personally FlaSh at his peak is better than any player in history and his full potential will never be topped, the fact is Jaedong has posted 3 OSL victories, 1 MSL victory, ProLeague MVP, and the most ridiculous ZvZ statistics to ever be seen. However, he's never a sure bet, he's never a lock for the finals and he often goes into 1-2 week slumps. In fact, Stork has a winning record against him and he has dropped series to the likes of FlaSh and fOrGG. If I saw some amateur knock him out in the Ro64 I wouldn't be the least bit surprised, only disappointed. If NaDa didn't at least make the semi-finals at his peak, it would have shocked and apalled everyone watching. NaDa was in an S-Class of 4-5 players. Jaedong is in a double-digit S-Class where A-Class players often go above their own "skill level" and play A-Class games. Look at Pure's PvTs in early 2009, Thezergs play in the Ever 2008 OSL, Light's TvT's in proleague. These "weaklings" often defeat our "gods". At the moment, Jaedong is the closest thing we have to a hero, to a bonjwa, but there is something different about him. He hasn't revolutionized the game, he isn't a genius, he's just really damn good. He's a hero of mechanics, but he doesn't have the personality to carry the scene.

If anyone could be defined as bonjwa it would be him; however his lack of personality and the competition that faces him has kept him from the hero status that even a less dominant player such as Bisu held. Jaedong hasn't done too much to revolutionize zerg beyond sAviOr's innovations besides perfecting what the maestro had laid out for him. Bisu is known as the revolutionist and while he may never have the statistics of Jaedong; his charm, game changing play, and legendary status propel him onto that hero echelon that Jaedong stands so near to. Yet, he is still not what we would call a bonjwa. Where are we without a Bonjwa's dominance or a Hero's charm?

What we are left with is something of a "Bonjwa Squad", what most of us would call the S-Class. These are the players that all have the potential to win a StarLeague and consistently show strong results. FlaSh, Jaedong, and Bisu are easily the most skilled and talented players in the history of BroodWar. FlaSh revolutionized TvP and almost every build is now based on his fast upgrade style, but it's not the same as NaDa's tornado terran and Iloveoov's macro revolution. Jaedong changed the confidence of zerg and showed that with strong mechanics and multitask, the mutaling combination is to be feared by any race. Bisu is the last hero to stay strong into the new era but he cannot be what he once was because he cannot dominate.

[image loading]

Is he the one?


This class extends beyond the grasp of the three neo-kings, FantaSy has what it takes to become a hero, but the fact is that he will still lose to Jaedong. He will still lose to Stork's beast PvT. He will still lose to FlaSh. He is by no means guaranteed to win an OSL or MSL, in fact these past few years have seen more consistent upsets than any other. FantaSy is the player that has the personality, the creativity, and the wits to be a hero; but not the results. While the true essence of a hero is the unique nature of his play (and FantaSy's valkyrie build certainly qualifies under that standard) FantaSy hasn't dominated the scene to be a hero like the 4 bonjwa's were or even their lesser counterparts nal.rA, YellOw, Kingdom, and the likes of them. Could FantaSy be the face we're looking for?

Stork, Calm, EffOrt, YARNC, Luxury, Iris, BeSt, Jangbi, Mind; these players pop back and forth from A to S-Class. All of them have the potential to win a series against the big three, all of the have the potential to win a StarLeague and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if a player like Jangbi, Mind, Stork, or EffOrt won a starleague this year. That's how this era works. That's what this is. This is an era without a hero; because there are too many people capable of being one.

We transition to a future that is uncertain; StarCraft 2 is bound to hit soon with unforeseen consequences for the BroodWar scene. Will BroodWar die? Will both games co-exist as equals or will SC2 dominate on it's release? Looking into the future can be very frightening for some E-Sports fanatics, but I say there is nothing to fear.

Look into the crystal ball...


An Uncertain Future


[image loading]

The S-Classer With The Most "S"


A sport without a hero is a sport without a face, without a soul, without an essence. However how can you call a sport dead when the players are better than ever? Rumors of BroodWar losing popularity in Korea come about and we can only speculate as to why. While I would submit the lack of a face is an important aspect as well as KESPA's overly bureaucratic approach to regulation, a lot has changed and many of us might find this for the better. Skill has skyrocketed from the days of GARIMTO and TheMarine.

While this high skill level makes for the best games we've seen in years, it has to some extent drained the sport of it's personality. Goofy hairstyles, absurd trash-talking, big costumes, and bigger egos once were a huge part of E-Sports. While KESPA has cleaned all that up as of late, a bit of the charisma is gone, players have become macro robots playing 3-5 games a week (including series games) perhaps losing a bit of their soul in the practice room. But there is no doubt about the high levels of skill shown in the play. These macro wars are in many ways every bit as satisfying as BoxeR's old games.

Just think how far we've come from Grrr.... vs H.O.T-Forever to Jaedong vs FantaSy. Skill has increased absurdly even from the days when sAviOr and NaDa dominated the scene. FlaSh, Jaedong, Stork, and Bisu have pushed the game to it's absolute mechanical limit. With enough collective APM to pay off the US debt to China these young players have revolutionized the way we think about the game. BoxeR's flair and power were incredible to see in 2002, but these builds are simply reflected by great micro. Most creative builds work against a player with bad mechanics, two players working with limited physical dexterity, forced to rely on their great wit to win. Compare that to a modern TvZ: two players with premapped well known build-orders, in a war of multi-tasking, unit production, and large-scale army micro.

[image loading]
A relic of a time gone by...



These games are breathtaking works of art, just as much as BoxeR's micro revolution in the early millenium. They are giant waves of space vikings crashing against a storm of zergling brood, massive production facilities capable of reinforcing a tank squad in seconds flat. Who knows what BoxeR could have done with mechanics like these, perhaps we see a bit of it in FantaSy; but still, players know what wins them the game at the end of the day. Good mechanics, good macro, good multi-task.

Just look at who we may consider to be the most important player of these past few years. Lee Jae Dong is not an incredibly tactical player, nor is he an incredibly creative player, like Plexa said, he's just so perfect in his execution that nothing works against him. He is an immovable wall and an unstoppable force, because of his hands. Because of his skills. Not because of his wits and innovation.

Thus the game becomes more and more entertaining to those who truly appreciate it, to those who play and understand it. Let me use the analogy of a drum solo. As a percussionist myself, the most technically impressive drummer brings me the most excitement. A load of new techniques to assimilate into my arsenal, pushing the limits of what can be done, and showing me something I never thought possible. A simple and melodic drummer will entertain the masses but is not as exciting (although appreciated) to those who are well versed in the craft. Perhaps StarCraft games have lost a bit of their mass appeal, becoming more and more focused toward an audience that can appreciate the delicacy of the mechanical involvement as well as the intricacy and force of the macro-game.

Is BroodWar dying? No, it's becoming less marketable in Korea and this should not be a surprise or downer for anyone. For one thing, KESPA's policies could easily change and bring a lot of disenfranchised fans back into the sport. Unfortunately we do live in an age of a faceless game, where there is no hero, where there is no korean superman. However, the foreign scene seems to have taken the opposite direction...

[image loading]

Hello, this is Nick "Tasteless" Plott...


The GOMtv Star Invitational was the first Korean "StarLeague" to be casted in english to the world. While the GOMtv tournaments weren't that popular in Korea, Nick Plott's colorful and simplistic commentary attracted foreigners of all skill-levels to watch the tournament and brought a whole host of new and non-korean speaking viewers to the table. While many of these viewers merely watched GOM and then trailed off, many came to TeamLiquid and grew to love the OSL/MSL/ProLeague and everything surrounding the scene. One of those viewers was myself.

While I can't speak for everyone, I can speak of the impact GOMtv had on me. I had a friend by the name of Dana who watched professional StarCraft on occasion, a game I had not even picked up since the vanilla version. He gave me the link to GOMtv and eventually I caved in at watched. While I didn't really understand the game, the humor of Tasteless, and exciting nature of the action kept me involved as a viewer. I purchased BroodWar, started watching old VODs, and before long here I was on TeamLiquid writing articles and posting like a madman. I'll never forget turning GOMtv on in the school computer lab, barely listening to Tasteless out of one speaker as FlaSh crushed Anytime in a dominating series. As far as I see it, the foreign scene is growing bigger while the Korean scene is perhaps growing smaller. KESPA's idiocy, the dropping of many sponsors/name changes within a year, (KTF, OGN, Lecaf, and HanbitSoft) and the lack of personality (the lack of a hero) in the current scene today may all be contributing and warning factors of a scene stagnating or heading toward stagnation.

TeamLiquid has grown exponentially, hosting it's own StarLeague, a popular Fantasy League, getting Korean progamers on TeamLiquid attack, hosting bigger and bigger events at WCG and Blizzcon, gaining more insider access into the Korean scene, and expanding as a forum while we move into the era of StarCraft II. The foreign scene continues to grow in many ways; WCG/Blizzcon has also grown with each installment. Foreign players have gotten better and better as we have seen both IdrA and nonY on CJ and eSTRO respectively and the rumors that eSTRO is going to take ret have been spreading like wildfire. With the death of GOM I'm not sure how many more foreigners can be brought into the professional scene so easily and concisely, but doubtless the following has increased exponentially since the days of SlayerS_BoxeR.

StarCraft 2 will see the emergence of a new hero. Who will reclaim the throne of E-Sports King. A man who will dominate the game and show us how it's played. We fear change but soon we will all applaud when a new emperor takes his rightful seat above us all. Those of us who came in the godless era will finally know what it is like to witness a hero in action. Don't fear change. Embrace it.

This isn't death, it's evolution.
RIP Aaliyah
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 10:10 GMT
#2
oh and thank you keit for the banner
RIP Aaliyah
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66158 Posts
October 10 2009 10:10 GMT
#3
was waiting for this to get released.

Time for a looong read
POGGERS
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
October 10 2009 10:10 GMT
#4
Stunning article well done.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 10:11 GMT
#5
i thought it was alright too
RIP Aaliyah
2Pacalypse-
Profile Joined October 2006
Croatia9498 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 10:16:47
October 10 2009 10:14 GMT
#6
wow, simply wow.

where's Reach though?

also, I'm one of those that DO fear of change (at least in bw->sc2 case).
~bw4ever~
Moderator"We're a community of geniuses because we've found how to extract 95% of the feeling of doing something amazing without actually doing anything." - Chill
DIMJkE
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Bulgaria425 Posts
October 10 2009 10:14 GMT
#7
Wow, reading and enjoying. So far, so good (actually very good!) D:
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 10:15 GMT
#8
On October 10 2009 19:14 2Pacalypse- wrote:
wow, simply wow.


where's Reach though?


i mentioned him

didn't find an article about him though

i would write one if i watched the scene at that time
RIP Aaliyah
nttea
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Sweden4353 Posts
October 10 2009 10:26 GMT
#9
thanks. this was great ^^
Suc
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Australia1569 Posts
October 10 2009 10:30 GMT
#10
Excellent article, I'm only halfway through and I'm finding it really interesting.
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
October 10 2009 10:37 GMT
#11
Interesting article. Thanks!
Hello
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 10:43:02
October 10 2009 10:42 GMT
#12
You'd think the best player that ever played the game would be mentioned here.

I don't know how you can be uninspired watching he who apparently must not be named play. Its interesting because I'm pretty sure all these players are inspired by said person.

"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 10:45 GMT
#13
On October 10 2009 19:42 keV. wrote:
You'd think the best player that ever played the game would be mentioned here.

I don't know how you can be uninspired watching he who apparently must not be named play. Its interesting because I'm pretty sure all these players are inspired by said person.



I didn't wanna write about Combat-Ex to avoid drama, sorry.
RIP Aaliyah
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
October 10 2009 10:47 GMT
#14
On October 10 2009 19:45 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 19:42 keV. wrote:
You'd think the best player that ever played the game would be mentioned here.

I don't know how you can be uninspired watching he who apparently must not be named play. Its interesting because I'm pretty sure all these players are inspired by said person.



I didn't wanna write about Combat-Ex to avoid drama, sorry.


Thats cute.

Its a great article, but I cannot see any conceivable reason why you omit Jaedong, just seems completely retarded to me. I think your definition of hero is ridiculously subjective and in no way the standard. It is your article to be fair. Just saying.
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 10:50:35
October 10 2009 10:48 GMT
#15
On October 10 2009 19:47 keV. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 19:45 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 10 2009 19:42 keV. wrote:
You'd think the best player that ever played the game would be mentioned here.

I don't know how you can be uninspired watching he who apparently must not be named play. Its interesting because I'm pretty sure all these players are inspired by said person.



I didn't wanna write about Combat-Ex to avoid drama, sorry.


Thats cute.

Its a great article, but I cannot see any conceivable reason why you omit Jaedong, just seems completely retarded to me. I think your definition of hero is ridiculously subjective and in no way the standard. It is your article to be fair. Just saying.


I wrote about Jaedong a lot, probably more than any player in the entire article. I don't consider him the face of BroodWar or a hero of E-Sports sorry. His games aren't uninspiring and I never insinuated that.

Usually opinions are subjective so I'm fine with that observation.
RIP Aaliyah
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
October 10 2009 10:51 GMT
#16
On October 10 2009 19:48 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 19:47 keV. wrote:
On October 10 2009 19:45 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 10 2009 19:42 keV. wrote:
You'd think the best player that ever played the game would be mentioned here.

I don't know how you can be uninspired watching he who apparently must not be named play. Its interesting because I'm pretty sure all these players are inspired by said person.



I didn't wanna write about Combat-Ex to avoid drama, sorry.


Thats cute.

Its a great article, but I cannot see any conceivable reason why you omit Jaedong, just seems completely retarded to me. I think your definition of hero is ridiculously subjective and in no way the standard. It is your article to be fair. Just saying.


I wrote about Jaedong a lot, probably more than any player in the entire article. I don't consider him the face of BroodWar or a hero of E-Sports sorry.


I was pretty inspired after the Batoo starleague...
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
Fish_Baguettes
Profile Joined March 2008
Australia589 Posts
October 10 2009 10:52 GMT
#17
Finally finished reading all of that, and damn was that a good read! Very inspirational and informative.

Maybe one day in the future there will be a player who is extremely ahead of the pack and sit on the bonjwa throne again, but ever since the fall of (Z)sAviOr it has practically been a warring states period in the korean starcraft pro scene - no one has been able to state a claim of ownage over the title just like your article said =(
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 10:53 GMT
#18
On October 10 2009 19:51 keV. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 19:48 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 10 2009 19:47 keV. wrote:
On October 10 2009 19:45 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 10 2009 19:42 keV. wrote:
You'd think the best player that ever played the game would be mentioned here.

I don't know how you can be uninspired watching he who apparently must not be named play. Its interesting because I'm pretty sure all these players are inspired by said person.



I didn't wanna write about Combat-Ex to avoid drama, sorry.


Thats cute.

Its a great article, but I cannot see any conceivable reason why you omit Jaedong, just seems completely retarded to me. I think your definition of hero is ridiculously subjective and in no way the standard. It is your article to be fair. Just saying.


I wrote about Jaedong a lot, probably more than any player in the entire article. I don't consider him the face of BroodWar or a hero of E-Sports sorry.


I was pretty inspired after the Batoo starleague...


Yep. He is definitely the best player at the moment and is far closer to bonjwa status to anyone since sAviOr lost it.

Seems like you just don't think I gave Jaedong enough credit when I would describe him as the most frightening monster to ever exist. Stats aren't enough. He really isn't a very creative/interesting player or person. I love watching his games though because the level of multi-task and mechanical prowess is jaw dropping.
RIP Aaliyah
John49ers
Profile Joined May 2009
United States237 Posts
October 10 2009 10:53 GMT
#19
Damn that was a good read. I couldn't keep my eyes away from it.
“The beauty of Bill's system was that there was always a place to go with the ball, ... I was the mailman, just delivering people's mail, and there were all kinds of houses to go to.”-Joe Montana
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 10:56:26
October 10 2009 10:54 GMT
#20
On October 10 2009 19:52 Fish_Baguettes wrote:
Finally finished reading all of that, and damn was that a good read! Very inspirational and informative.

Maybe one day in the future there will be a player who is extremely ahead of the pack and sit on the bonjwa throne again, but ever since the fall of (Z)sAviOr it has practically been a warring states period in the korean starcraft pro scene - no one has been able to state a claim of ownage over the title just like your article said =(


If Jaedong doesn't slump this season it will be pretty hard not to call him Bonjwa. The only problem is players like Bisu/Fantasy/Flash/Stork are very close to that level of skill.

Alot of people don't realize just how much better sAviOr was than everyone else at his peak. When there are 3 or more players that can take you on a series and easily be favorites to win you're not a bonjwa.

Just imo Jaedong doesn't have the personality, the creativity, or the "it" factor required. He is a beast on screen but I wouldn't even rank him with the likes of GARIMTO or nal.rA when it comes to heroics.

Also I'm not convinced he's better than FlaSh at his peak. Never forget 2008.
RIP Aaliyah
7mk
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Germany10157 Posts
October 10 2009 10:59 GMT
#21
what? nobody is "easily a favourite to win" vs jaedong

"the dropping of many sponsors within a year, (KTF, OGN, Lecaf, and HanbitSoft)"
? KTF didn't drop, neither did Lecaf. Hwaesung owns Lecaf.
beep boop
Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
October 10 2009 11:03 GMT
#22
On October 10 2009 19:42 keV. wrote:
You'd think the best player that ever played the game would be mentioned here.

I don't know how you can be uninspired watching he who apparently must not be named play. Its interesting because I'm pretty sure all these players are inspired by said person.



Nada was mentioned.

Here's some food for thought on hero/bonjwa subject:

From Boxer to Nada to oov there was virtually an uninterrupted line of someone standing far ahead of the rest. But from oov to Savior there was a pretty long gap, a year to a year and a half depending on how you want to look at it. Currently it's been two and a half years since Savior lost, so this gap is certainly larger (thanks Mind). But all the top players you listed can be compared with Gorush, July, Anytime, Reach, Casy, and Chojja, who all were fighting with everyone else for supremacy in that period. Until Savior emerged, one could have looked at that interregnum the same way.

I liked this article quite a bit. Hope to see more like it
Liquipedia
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 11:03 GMT
#23
On October 10 2009 19:59 7mk wrote:
what? nobody is "easily a favourite to win" vs jaedong

"the dropping of many sponsors within a year, (KTF, OGN, Lecaf, and HanbitSoft)"
? KTF didn't drop, neither did Lecaf. Hwaesung owns Lecaf.


I see no reason why FantaSy, Bisu, Calm, or FlaSh couldn't be expected to beat Jaedong.

also thank you for the correction.
RIP Aaliyah
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
October 10 2009 11:03 GMT
#24
On October 10 2009 19:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 19:52 Fish_Baguettes wrote:
Finally finished reading all of that, and damn was that a good read! Very inspirational and informative.

Maybe one day in the future there will be a player who is extremely ahead of the pack and sit on the bonjwa throne again, but ever since the fall of (Z)sAviOr it has practically been a warring states period in the korean starcraft pro scene - no one has been able to state a claim of ownage over the title just like your article said =(


If Jaedong doesn't slump this season it will be pretty hard not to call him Bonjwa. The only problem is players like Bisu/Fantasy/Flash/Stork are very close to that level of skill.

Alot of people don't realize just how much better sAviOr was than everyone else at his peak. When there are 3 or more players that can take you on a series and easily be favorites to win you're not a bonjwa.

Just imo Jaedong doesn't have the personality, the creativity, or the "it" factor required. He is a beast on screen but I wouldn't even rank him with the likes of GARIMTO or nal.rA when it comes to heroics.

Also I'm not convinced he's better than FlaSh at his peak. Never forget 2008.


There is that "it" again. *sigh* By your own criteria there is no reason why Bisu should be considered a hero and Jaedong should not. If you are talking legends... and I think you would be if Bisu was not involved... I wouldn't have a problem with this at all.
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
BookTwo
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1985 Posts
October 10 2009 11:06 GMT
#25
I just pee'd a little. I do that when I get really, really really excited/happy.

This is just epic, to say the least.
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
October 10 2009 11:06 GMT
#26
On October 10 2009 20:03 Ver wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 19:42 keV. wrote:
You'd think the best player that ever played the game would be mentioned here.

I don't know how you can be uninspired watching he who apparently must not be named play. Its interesting because I'm pretty sure all these players are inspired by said person.



Nada was mentioned.

Here's some food for thought on hero/bonjwa subject:

From Boxer to Nada to oov there was virtually an uninterrupted line of someone standing far ahead of the rest. But from oov to Savior there was a pretty long gap, a year to a year and a half depending on how you want to look at it. Currently it's been two and a half years since Savior lost, so this gap is certainly larger (thanks Mind). But all the top players you listed can be compared with Gorush, July, Anytime, Reach, Casy, and Chojja, who all were fighting with everyone else for supremacy in that period. Until Savior emerged, one could have looked at that interregnum the same way.

I liked this article quite a bit. Hope to see more like it


Do I have to dig up the Nada quote that JD is basically the face of Broodwar pro gaming?
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 11:08:10
October 10 2009 11:06 GMT
#27
Bisu changed the metagame drastically and had a far better stage presence and charisma than Jaedong. I'm not talking about just dominance and i make this point very clearly in my article.

RIP Aaliyah
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 11:08:22
October 10 2009 11:08 GMT
#28
On October 10 2009 20:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Bisu changed the metagame drastically and had a far better stage presence and charisma than Jaedong.


There is nothing special about the Bisu build at all. It's when Bisu does it. How is this any different from Jaedong. Also Bisu = Charisma? any proof of this at all. Find me one interview that deserves an exclamation point.
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 11:09:18
October 10 2009 11:08 GMT
#29
On October 10 2009 20:08 keV. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 20:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Bisu changed the metagame drastically and had a far better stage presence and charisma than Jaedong.


There is nothing special about the Bisu build at all. It's when Bisu does it. How is this any different from Jaedong. Also Bisu = Charisma? any proof of this at all. Find me one interview that deserves and exclamation point.


I can't prove someone is charismatic. I would love to give you objective proof of my opinion but unfortunately i can't.
RIP Aaliyah
Superbia
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Netherlands8889 Posts
October 10 2009 11:11 GMT
#30
On October 10 2009 20:08 keV. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 20:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Bisu changed the metagame drastically and had a far better stage presence and charisma than Jaedong.


There is nothing special about the Bisu build at all. It's when Bisu does it. How is this any different from Jaedong. Also Bisu = Charisma? any proof of this at all. Find me one interview that deserves an exclamation point.


Honestly man, the only thing you are achieving is making it clear that you are an incredibly biased Jaedong fanboy. The article obviously represents the author's opinion mixed in with facts. Stop being so butthurt about someone not sharing your opinion.
Minimal effort.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 11:14:10
October 10 2009 11:12 GMT
#31
On October 10 2009 20:11 Uligor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 20:08 keV. wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Bisu changed the metagame drastically and had a far better stage presence and charisma than Jaedong.


There is nothing special about the Bisu build at all. It's when Bisu does it. How is this any different from Jaedong. Also Bisu = Charisma? any proof of this at all. Find me one interview that deserves an exclamation point.


Honestly man, the only thing you are achieving is making it clear that you are an incredibly biased Jaedong fanboy. The article obviously represents the author's opinion mixed in with facts. Stop being so butthurt about someone not sharing your opinion.


If youre going to argue against someone in my thread please do so in a less inflammatory manner. If this thread degenerates into an angry Bisu vs Jaedong thread I will be very upset.

before I get accused of being a bisu fanboy i would like to remind you all that bisu is my least favorite player and I hate him and everything about him
RIP Aaliyah
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
October 10 2009 11:12 GMT
#32
On October 10 2009 20:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 20:08 keV. wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Bisu changed the metagame drastically and had a far better stage presence and charisma than Jaedong.


There is nothing special about the Bisu build at all. It's when Bisu does it. How is this any different from Jaedong. Also Bisu = Charisma? any proof of this at all. Find me one interview that deserves and exclamation point.


I can't prove someone is charismatic. I would love to give you objective proof of my opinion but unfortunately i can't.


Charisma is a perfectly provable trait... At least by majority vote. I'll give you some reasons why I think Jaedong is heroic.

-Quote by Nada
-Picks for his group in the last MSL
-Comeback after losing the proleague finals for his team

Now you go.
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
October 10 2009 11:14 GMT
#33
On October 10 2009 20:11 Uligor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 20:08 keV. wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Bisu changed the metagame drastically and had a far better stage presence and charisma than Jaedong.


There is nothing special about the Bisu build at all. It's when Bisu does it. How is this any different from Jaedong. Also Bisu = Charisma? any proof of this at all. Find me one interview that deserves an exclamation point.


Honestly man, the only thing you are achieving is making it clear that you are an incredibly biased Jaedong fanboy. The article obviously represents the author's opinion mixed in with facts. Stop being so butthurt about someone not sharing your opinion.


I'm not being 'butthurt' (lol) at all. I'm discussing an article and asking the author to defend his position. Have I degraded the author or Bisu at all in this thread? No. Maybe you should read a little bit before you try and turn this into one of your other kiddie-forum flame wars.
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 11:16:35
October 10 2009 11:15 GMT
#34
On October 10 2009 20:12 keV. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 20:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:08 keV. wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Bisu changed the metagame drastically and had a far better stage presence and charisma than Jaedong.


There is nothing special about the Bisu build at all. It's when Bisu does it. How is this any different from Jaedong. Also Bisu = Charisma? any proof of this at all. Find me one interview that deserves and exclamation point.


I can't prove someone is charismatic. I would love to give you objective proof of my opinion but unfortunately i can't.


Charisma is a perfectly provable trait... At least by majority vote. I'll give you some reasons why I think Jaedong is heroic.

-Quote by Nada
-Picks for his group in the last MSL
-Comeback after losing the proleague finals for his team

Now you go.


No it isn't. I listed reasons why I thought Bisu was heroic in the article and vicariously through plexas article. I'm not going to regurgitate the same points.

You disagree with me and im ok with that.
RIP Aaliyah
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
October 10 2009 11:16 GMT
#35
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow IMBA READ! Give this guy a star and frontpage it asap else imma commit suicide!! (Ya hear me? SUICIDE!!)!
In the woods, there lurks..
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
October 10 2009 11:16 GMT
#36
On October 10 2009 20:03 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 19:59 7mk wrote:
what? nobody is "easily a favourite to win" vs jaedong

"the dropping of many sponsors within a year, (KTF, OGN, Lecaf, and HanbitSoft)"
? KTF didn't drop, neither did Lecaf. Hwaesung owns Lecaf.


I see no reason why FantaSy, Bisu, Calm, or FlaSh couldn't be expected to beat Jaedong.

also thank you for the correction.


because apart from Calm all failed against JD in Bo5s?
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 11:18:48
October 10 2009 11:17 GMT
#37
On October 10 2009 20:16 Iplaythings wrote:
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow IMBA READ! Give this guy a star and frontpage it asap else imma commit suicide!! (Ya hear me? SUICIDE!!)!


The writing staff unanimously agreed this was not worthy of being on the front page. In fact only one of my TLFE's was written with the intent to be a TLFE and it was actually a terrible article.
RIP Aaliyah
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 11:18 GMT
#38
On October 10 2009 20:16 SuperArc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 20:03 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 10 2009 19:59 7mk wrote:
what? nobody is "easily a favourite to win" vs jaedong

"the dropping of many sponsors within a year, (KTF, OGN, Lecaf, and HanbitSoft)"
? KTF didn't drop, neither did Lecaf. Hwaesung owns Lecaf.


I see no reason why FantaSy, Bisu, Calm, or FlaSh couldn't be expected to beat Jaedong.

also thank you for the correction.


because apart from Calm all failed against JD in Bo5s?


And they could just as easily win the next one couldn't they.
RIP Aaliyah
Superbia
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Netherlands8889 Posts
October 10 2009 11:18 GMT
#39
On October 10 2009 20:12 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 20:11 Uligor wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:08 keV. wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Bisu changed the metagame drastically and had a far better stage presence and charisma than Jaedong.


There is nothing special about the Bisu build at all. It's when Bisu does it. How is this any different from Jaedong. Also Bisu = Charisma? any proof of this at all. Find me one interview that deserves an exclamation point.


Honestly man, the only thing you are achieving is making it clear that you are an incredibly biased Jaedong fanboy. The article obviously represents the author's opinion mixed in with facts. Stop being so butthurt about someone not sharing your opinion.


If youre going to argue against someone in my thread please do so in a less inflammatory manner. If this thread degenerates into an angry Bisu vs Jaedong thread I will be very upset.


I'm not planning on arguing, I thought pointing stuff out would maybe make the poster realize it and calm down.
With respect to your intentions, I think it is pretty unfair to direct this at me. I think it is pretty clear that I was in no way heading towards a "Jaedong vs Bisu" or "Bonjwa" discussion.
Minimal effort.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 11:19 GMT
#40
On October 10 2009 20:18 Uligor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 20:12 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:11 Uligor wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:08 keV. wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Bisu changed the metagame drastically and had a far better stage presence and charisma than Jaedong.


There is nothing special about the Bisu build at all. It's when Bisu does it. How is this any different from Jaedong. Also Bisu = Charisma? any proof of this at all. Find me one interview that deserves an exclamation point.


Honestly man, the only thing you are achieving is making it clear that you are an incredibly biased Jaedong fanboy. The article obviously represents the author's opinion mixed in with facts. Stop being so butthurt about someone not sharing your opinion.


If youre going to argue against someone in my thread please do so in a less inflammatory manner. If this thread degenerates into an angry Bisu vs Jaedong thread I will be very upset.


I'm not planning on arguing, I thought pointing stuff out would maybe make the poster realize it and calm down.
With respect to your intentions, I think it is pretty unfair to direct this at me. I think it is pretty clear that I was in no way heading towards a "Jaedong vs Bisu" or "Bonjwa" discussion.


I just don't want flamewars in my thread. These discussions become far too heated and serious and once you start taking personal jabs, it's time to take a break.
RIP Aaliyah
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
October 10 2009 11:20 GMT
#41
On October 10 2009 20:18 Uligor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 20:12 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:11 Uligor wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:08 keV. wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Bisu changed the metagame drastically and had a far better stage presence and charisma than Jaedong.


There is nothing special about the Bisu build at all. It's when Bisu does it. How is this any different from Jaedong. Also Bisu = Charisma? any proof of this at all. Find me one interview that deserves an exclamation point.


Honestly man, the only thing you are achieving is making it clear that you are an incredibly biased Jaedong fanboy. The article obviously represents the author's opinion mixed in with facts. Stop being so butthurt about someone not sharing your opinion.


If youre going to argue against someone in my thread please do so in a less inflammatory manner. If this thread degenerates into an angry Bisu vs Jaedong thread I will be very upset.


I'm not planning on arguing, I thought pointing stuff out would maybe make the poster realize it and calm down.
With respect to your intentions, I think it is pretty unfair to direct this at me. I think it is pretty clear that I was in no way heading towards a "Jaedong vs Bisu" or "Bonjwa" discussion.


Make less inflammatory post when you point stuff out.
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
October 10 2009 11:20 GMT
#42
On October 10 2009 20:18 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 20:16 SuperArc wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:03 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 10 2009 19:59 7mk wrote:
what? nobody is "easily a favourite to win" vs jaedong

"the dropping of many sponsors within a year, (KTF, OGN, Lecaf, and HanbitSoft)"
? KTF didn't drop, neither did Lecaf. Hwaesung owns Lecaf.


I see no reason why FantaSy, Bisu, Calm, or FlaSh couldn't be expected to beat Jaedong.

also thank you for the correction.


because apart from Calm all failed against JD in Bo5s?


And they could just as easily win the next one couldn't they.


Nope, JD proved us often enough how HE is easily the favourite in a Bo5 against anyone.
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
KristianJS
Profile Joined October 2009
2107 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 11:25:19
October 10 2009 11:20 GMT
#43
On October 10 2009 20:08 keV. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 20:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Bisu changed the metagame drastically and had a far better stage presence and charisma than Jaedong.


There is nothing special about the Bisu build at all. It's when Bisu does it. How is this any different from Jaedong. Also Bisu = Charisma? any proof of this at all. Find me one interview that deserves an exclamation point.


As far as I can recall Boxer said in an interview fairly recently that Bisu basically had the charisma to be the new face of Broodwar if he really tried. I think it was in the Boxer-Bisu double interview.

Anyway, is Jaedong a hero or just a really, really good player? I do agree there is a difference. Boxer is the prime example of someone who has the "it" factor in buckets and spades. It's the sense of expectation that when he's playing you might be allowed a glimpse into something truly magical. It's the kind of feeling associated with Federer in tennis and Tiger Woods in golf. Both are ridiculously good at their sport but they in addition have that extra special factor.

I don't know about Jaedong. Often I get the feeling that I'll be able to watch him dominate with impressive ease, but not experience something magical. But who can deny he's one of the greatest current players? I think that what SC really needs, as is pointed out in the article, is a proper rivalry ala Federer-Nadal in tennis. I'd say Jaedong is the Nadal of today, but we need a Federer to compete! Someone who will be a favourite to win against absolutely everyone except Jaedong. That would boost things a lot. Bisu could be that person but he needs some work to do for that. Flash also.

Hopefully one day we'll get a great rivalry again.
You need to be 100% behind someone before you can stab them in the back
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 11:22 GMT
#44
On October 10 2009 20:20 SuperArc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 20:18 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:16 SuperArc wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:03 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 10 2009 19:59 7mk wrote:
what? nobody is "easily a favourite to win" vs jaedong

"the dropping of many sponsors within a year, (KTF, OGN, Lecaf, and HanbitSoft)"
? KTF didn't drop, neither did Lecaf. Hwaesung owns Lecaf.


I see no reason why FantaSy, Bisu, Calm, or FlaSh couldn't be expected to beat Jaedong.

also thank you for the correction.


because apart from Calm all failed against JD in Bo5s?


And they could just as easily win the next one couldn't they.


Nope, JD proved us often enough how HE is easily the favourite in a Bo5 against anyone.


I would not be even slightly surprised is Jaedong lost a Bo5 3-1 or 3-2 to any of the aforementioned players.

I would have shit my pants if BoxeR lost a series to anyone at his peak.
RIP Aaliyah
Spenguin
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Australia3316 Posts
October 10 2009 11:22 GMT
#45
Holy shit my hair is standing on end that was so true and correct down to the letter.

You sir are amazing.
< TeamLiquid CJ Entusman #46 > I came for the Brood War, I stayed for the people.
Iplaythings
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Denmark9110 Posts
October 10 2009 11:24 GMT
#46
On October 10 2009 20:17 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 20:16 Iplaythings wrote:
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow IMBA READ! Give this guy a star and frontpage it asap else imma commit suicide!! (Ya hear me? SUICIDE!!)!


The writing staff unanimously agreed this was not worthy of being on the front page. In fact only one of my TLFE's was written with the intent to be a TLFE and it was actually a terrible article.

I hope that was a joke
In the woods, there lurks..
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 11:34:54
October 10 2009 11:26 GMT
#47
On October 10 2009 20:24 Iplaythings wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 20:17 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:16 Iplaythings wrote:
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow IMBA READ! Give this guy a star and frontpage it asap else imma commit suicide!! (Ya hear me? SUICIDE!!)!


The writing staff unanimously agreed this was not worthy of being on the front page. In fact only one of my TLFE's was written with the intent to be a TLFE and it was actually a terrible article.

I hope that was a joke

No I'm not joking and they were absolutely right in their decision. This is not the type of article that gets posted on the front page. Ultimately there is no real article and it touches on too many topics. That is what I wanted but not what the staff wanted.

When I write more focused and concise works maybe they will be seen on the homepage.
RIP Aaliyah
Superbia
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Netherlands8889 Posts
October 10 2009 11:30 GMT
#48
On October 10 2009 20:20 keV. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 20:18 Uligor wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:12 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:11 Uligor wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:08 keV. wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Bisu changed the metagame drastically and had a far better stage presence and charisma than Jaedong.


There is nothing special about the Bisu build at all. It's when Bisu does it. How is this any different from Jaedong. Also Bisu = Charisma? any proof of this at all. Find me one interview that deserves an exclamation point.


Honestly man, the only thing you are achieving is making it clear that you are an incredibly biased Jaedong fanboy. The article obviously represents the author's opinion mixed in with facts. Stop being so butthurt about someone not sharing your opinion.


If youre going to argue against someone in my thread please do so in a less inflammatory manner. If this thread degenerates into an angry Bisu vs Jaedong thread I will be very upset.


I'm not planning on arguing, I thought pointing stuff out would maybe make the poster realize it and calm down.
With respect to your intentions, I think it is pretty unfair to direct this at me. I think it is pretty clear that I was in no way heading towards a "Jaedong vs Bisu" or "Bonjwa" discussion.


Make less inflammatory post when you point stuff out.


Right, maybe I could've omitted "fanboy" and "butthurt", but aren't these words frequently used on this forum? I also don't really see how these are inflammatory. Regardless, it was not my intention to insult you in any way.
Minimal effort.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 11:32 GMT
#49
On October 10 2009 20:30 Uligor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 20:20 keV. wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:18 Uligor wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:12 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:11 Uligor wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:08 keV. wrote:
On October 10 2009 20:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Bisu changed the metagame drastically and had a far better stage presence and charisma than Jaedong.


There is nothing special about the Bisu build at all. It's when Bisu does it. How is this any different from Jaedong. Also Bisu = Charisma? any proof of this at all. Find me one interview that deserves an exclamation point.


Honestly man, the only thing you are achieving is making it clear that you are an incredibly biased Jaedong fanboy. The article obviously represents the author's opinion mixed in with facts. Stop being so butthurt about someone not sharing your opinion.


If youre going to argue against someone in my thread please do so in a less inflammatory manner. If this thread degenerates into an angry Bisu vs Jaedong thread I will be very upset.


I'm not planning on arguing, I thought pointing stuff out would maybe make the poster realize it and calm down.
With respect to your intentions, I think it is pretty unfair to direct this at me. I think it is pretty clear that I was in no way heading towards a "Jaedong vs Bisu" or "Bonjwa" discussion.


Make less inflammatory post when you point stuff out.


Right, maybe I could've omitted "fanboy" and "butthurt", but aren't these words frequently used on this forum? I also don't really see how these are inflammatory. Regardless, it was not my intention to insult you in any way.


I would really just prefer if we keep any and all personal accusations out of all future discourse. That's what causes "arguments". We want "discussions"
RIP Aaliyah
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 11:35 GMT
#50
On October 10 2009 20:22 Spenguin wrote:
Holy shit my hair is standing on end that was so true and correct down to the letter.

You sir are amazing.


Thank you. That did wonders for my mostly crushed ego.

I hide it well but I actually take criticism very badly.
RIP Aaliyah
Necosarius
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Sweden4042 Posts
October 10 2009 11:43 GMT
#51
Amazing article
imweakless
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
757 Posts
October 10 2009 11:45 GMT
#52
woooo what an epic article! thank you so much!
KMK,Qri,GsD#1, UEE,stork jangbi for life!
san-tokie
Profile Joined May 2007
Korea (South)185 Posts
October 10 2009 11:49 GMT
#53
Definitely one of the better articles I've read.

Just one small nitpick though, if Casy is among the S-class heroes, shouldn't Anytime, Nal_ra and Julyzerg be listed there too, or is that simply because there's no article for them?

Also while you did give JD sufficient acknowledgement, I just want to mention if it weren't for Jaedong, the Flash/Bisu/Jaedong era would already be over. It's ridiculous how fast the turnover rate is for S-class players these days.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 11:51 GMT
#54
On October 10 2009 20:49 san-tokie wrote:
Definitely one of the better articles I've read.

Just one small nitpick though, if Casy is among the S-class heroes, shouldn't Anytime, Nal_ra and Julyzerg be listed there too, or is that simply because there's no article for them?

Also while you did give JD sufficient acknowledgement, I just want to mention if it weren't for Jaedong, the Flash/Bisu/Jaedong era would already be over. It's ridiculous how fast the turnover rate is for S-class players these days.


There is simply no article for them. I would have included all three of those players as well as Reach and GARIMTO.
RIP Aaliyah
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 11:53:39
October 10 2009 11:53 GMT
#55
also if anyone cares here is alfflas cover

this was originally meant to be a TLFE so it would have had a frontpage cover alternate to the articles banner but it wasn't good enough for that and i don't wanna see this go to waste

[image loading]
RIP Aaliyah
Oai
Profile Joined July 2009
United States40 Posts
October 10 2009 12:02 GMT
#56
Excellent read. Just a long one. But enjoyable nonetheless. haha. I don't have anything else to say here other than what's already been said; mainly about the omitting of julyzerg, nalra and the bunch, but you already explained. =)
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 12:04:46
October 10 2009 12:03 GMT
#57
- delete this post
RIP Aaliyah
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 12:04 GMT
#58
Yes, I really wish there was a long article on nal.rA

maybe i'll have to be the one to write it.
RIP Aaliyah
Ota Solgryn
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Denmark2011 Posts
October 10 2009 12:07 GMT
#59
I think JD is a hero for one reason:
The number of times his name is written in this article, while still trying to say he is not a hero.
ihasaKAROT: "Wish people would stop wasting their lives on finding flaws in others"
raga4ka
Profile Joined February 2008
Bulgaria5679 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 12:29:11
October 10 2009 12:08 GMT
#60
"They were just 2 zergs " blablabla . Back then July would have destroyed Bisu if he was able to get past Gorush . After all July has never lost a Bo5 to a protoss ( althought now he is pretty likely to lose ). July beat Bisu in the OSL qualifier just after Bisu destroyed Savior to win the MSL .
Imo Jaedong controling 2 groups of mutas at once is heroic allright , because no one on the planet can do it and that's way it's heroic and what about the Eeee-han timing ? ..... when you mention Nada perfectly cloneing the Yamato it is the same thing .
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
October 10 2009 12:23 GMT
#61
Stork's picture at the top banner confuses me. He hasn't been playing at S-class level ever since his OSL gold, and that's quite a lot of months.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 12:27 GMT
#62
On October 10 2009 21:23 Zato-1 wrote:
Stork's picture at the top banner confuses me. He hasn't been playing at S-class level ever since his OSL gold, and that's quite a lot of months.


He's still an S-Class player and by his recent showings he will be back in top-form. He's a slumping S-Class player not an S-Class Player turned A-B Class like sAviOr is now.
RIP Aaliyah
Marksman
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Malaysia523 Posts
October 10 2009 12:41 GMT
#63
Darn good article...I felt so emo lol.
I live by the LoL
Loffeman
Profile Joined June 2007
Sweden105 Posts
October 10 2009 12:48 GMT
#64
It seems like some people think that the reason JD is big is luck or something. They won't accept that he is a favourite in any b05 and that he's been doing great in every league the last 2 years.
meegrean
Profile Joined May 2008
Thailand7699 Posts
October 10 2009 12:50 GMT
#65
-Jaedong is a hero in my opinion. Why should perfect mechanics be considered different from creative play? As long as you have a special characteristic that gives you dominating results, it should make you a hero. Also, take a look at his Kespa ranking.
-Bisu is also kinda a hero too. I only wished he had won an OSL though.
-Flash is sickly good, but he can't seem to win more titles so no, he's not a hero.

I guess my definition of hero is strongly influenced by a player's accomplishments.
Brood War loyalist
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 12:55 GMT
#66
On October 10 2009 21:50 meegrean wrote:
-Jaedong is a hero in my opinion. Why should perfect mechanics be considered different from creative play? As long as you have a special characteristic that gives you dominating results, it should make you a hero. Also, take a look at his Kespa ranking.
-Bisu is also kinda a hero too. I only wished he had won an OSL though.
-Flash is sickly good, but he can't seem to win more titles so no, he's not a hero.

I guess my definition of hero is strongly influenced by a player's accomplishments.


I'm not defining hero by statistics alone. But it's all relative.

RIP Aaliyah
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
October 10 2009 13:00 GMT
#67
I disagree; Jaedong has everything required to be a true hero.

Jaedong does indeed inspire awe with his games. Read what his fellow progamers say about him in interviews. The thing is, he's doing it by different means that Boxer did. It's just as impressive, nonetheless. And I know that I've jumped out of my seat and yelled in excitement multiple times when watching Jaedong, such as when he won with that 4-pool against Fantasy (fucking genius). Also, microing 2 control groups of mutas at the same time (JD vs Iris) is at least as heroic as cloning yamato cannons. Even more so, IMO.

If we look at pure achievements, Boxer has 2 OSL's. Jaedong has 3 OSL's, 1 MSL and 1 GOM thingy, all aquired in a time where the competition is so much harder and schedules way tougher (he played OSL and MSL semifinals in consecutive days last season!!!!!). Look at how far ahead he is in the Kespa ranking (Jaedong has over 3000 points whereas Bisu has under 2000). No matter how you look at it, JD is a real fucking hero.

Jaedong the hero FTW!
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
Loffeman
Profile Joined June 2007
Sweden105 Posts
October 10 2009 13:00 GMT
#68
I think JD is very carismatic in his own way as well. There is something in his focus and his stare that I gotta love.
KristianJS
Profile Joined October 2009
2107 Posts
October 10 2009 13:13 GMT
#69
If we look at pure achievements, Boxer has 2 OSL's. Jaedong has 3 OSL's, 1 MSL and 1 GOM thingy


Jaedong does have more gold medals than Boxer but it's kinda unfair of you to only list 2 of Boxer's golds while ignoring the other ones. Boxer also won 1 MSL and 2 WCG's for instance...
You need to be 100% behind someone before you can stab them in the back
chongu
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Malaysia2585 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 13:22:56
October 10 2009 13:21 GMT
#70
AWESOME article!!!! TL for LIEF!!! But seriously.... Fantasy has personality? : 3

and i really liked your percussion analogy and that you concluded the article by looking towards SC2... i'm so hyped
SC2 is to BW, what coke is to wine.
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
October 10 2009 13:27 GMT
#71
On October 10 2009 22:13 KristianJS wrote:
Show nested quote +
If we look at pure achievements, Boxer has 2 OSL's. Jaedong has 3 OSL's, 1 MSL and 1 GOM thingy


Jaedong does have more gold medals than Boxer but it's kinda unfair of you to only list 2 of Boxer's golds while ignoring the other ones. Boxer also won 1 MSL and 2 WCG's for instance...

Forgot about Boxer's MSL. But WCG cannot be compared to Starleagues in any way.
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
KristianJS
Profile Joined October 2009
2107 Posts
October 10 2009 13:29 GMT
#72
On October 10 2009 22:27 Holgerius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 22:13 KristianJS wrote:
If we look at pure achievements, Boxer has 2 OSL's. Jaedong has 3 OSL's, 1 MSL and 1 GOM thingy


Jaedong does have more gold medals than Boxer but it's kinda unfair of you to only list 2 of Boxer's golds while ignoring the other ones. Boxer also won 1 MSL and 2 WCG's for instance...

Forgot about Boxer's MSL. But WCG cannot be compared to Starleagues in any way.


True, but I was thinking 2 WCG's = 1 GOM or something :D
You need to be 100% behind someone before you can stab them in the back
meeple
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Canada10211 Posts
October 10 2009 13:30 GMT
#73
Awesome article, thanks so much for all the effort and insight.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 13:31 GMT
#74
On October 10 2009 22:21 chongu wrote:
AWESOME article!!!! TL for LIEF!!! But seriously.... Fantasy has personality? : 3

and i really liked your percussion analogy and that you concluded the article by looking towards SC2... i'm so hyped


Yes actually he does. He's kind of cocky. Helps being the best terran in the world.
RIP Aaliyah
_awake_
Profile Joined August 2007
196 Posts
October 10 2009 13:32 GMT
#75
Every sport needs a hero. Every sport needs a Pele, a Michael Jordon, or a Tiger Woods.

Kim Taek Young was the last true hero and Jaedong might yet be his successor.


small typos aside, great article
Rice
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1332 Posts
October 10 2009 13:33 GMT
#76
I know im diving into a shit storm with this one but.... why is saviors cj face every single game every single win the definition of personality but with jaedong its apparently a completely different story and he has no personality? (atleast according to the article)
Freedom will be defended at the cost of civil liberties.
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
October 10 2009 13:38 GMT
#77
On October 10 2009 22:29 KristianJS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 22:27 Holgerius wrote:
On October 10 2009 22:13 KristianJS wrote:
If we look at pure achievements, Boxer has 2 OSL's. Jaedong has 3 OSL's, 1 MSL and 1 GOM thingy


Jaedong does have more gold medals than Boxer but it's kinda unfair of you to only list 2 of Boxer's golds while ignoring the other ones. Boxer also won 1 MSL and 2 WCG's for instance...

Forgot about Boxer's MSL. But WCG cannot be compared to Starleagues in any way.


True, but I was thinking 2 WCG's = 1 GOM or something :D

Maybe. :D Considering Bisu didn't participate in the GOM thingy (all other great players did though; Stork, Jangbi, Free, Kal, Flash, etc) I can agree that 2 WCG's can be considered equal to that. Point remains though; Jaedong has already accomplished moar, he has charisma, has an influence on the metagame, no weak matchup, etc etc etc. A real fucking hero.
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 13:44 GMT
#78
On October 10 2009 22:33 Rice wrote:
I know im diving into a shit storm with this one but.... why is saviors cj face every single game every single win the definition of personality but with jaedong its apparently a completely different story and he has no personality? (atleast according to the article)


He was dominant in a very different way than Jaedong. He was far scarier than Jaedong is now. He also redefined Zerg which Jaedong has not done.
RIP Aaliyah
GTR
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
51437 Posts
October 10 2009 13:48 GMT
#79
Er, there is no doubt in the world Jaedong was the single Zerg (can make an argument with the Twins and some others) that bought back the aggressive style of Zerg, which sAviOr de-popularized through his management-style of play.
Commentator
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 13:51 GMT
#80
On October 10 2009 22:48 GTR wrote:
Er, there is no doubt in the world Jaedong was the single Zerg (can make an argument with the Twins and some others) that bought back the aggressive style of Zerg, which sAviOr de-popularized through his management-style of play.


He repopularized something, however he does often play a greedy management style.

I suppose I would submit he isn't a very original zerg compared to YellOw/July/sAviOr
RIP Aaliyah
GTR
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
51437 Posts
October 10 2009 14:00 GMT
#81
On October 10 2009 19:59 7mk wrote:
"the dropping of many sponsors within a year, (KTF, OGN, Lecaf, and HanbitSoft)"
? KTF didn't drop, neither did Lecaf. Hwaesung owns Lecaf.


Many misconceptions in that statement anyway.

KTF merged back with its parent company KT due to the financial crisis. Therefore the team had to take up the KT name.
OGN 'sold' their naming rights to the hite company, therefore hite Sparkyz. Even though the name changed, OGN still own and operate the team and hite have pretty much nothing to do with it.
As mentioned, Lecaf was changed to Hwaseung to reflect how the Hwaseung corporation wanted to spread the Hwaseung brand name, rather than Lecaf.
The only true sponsorship change was Hanbit to Woongjin.
Commentator
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 14:04 GMT
#82
I corrected the error. I admit pure ignorance on my part.
RIP Aaliyah
Sharp-eYe
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada642 Posts
October 10 2009 14:16 GMT
#83
even after 7 years the articles are fantastic...
Are you truly so blinded by your vaunted religion, that you can't see the fall ahead of you? - Zeratul III AKA WikidSik ingame (anygame)
Vazze
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden279 Posts
October 10 2009 14:19 GMT
#84
Incredible! What a great read.
Jung Myung Hoon and Doh Jae Wook fan!
pripple
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Finland1714 Posts
October 10 2009 14:37 GMT
#85
man im stunned, excellent article, must've took quite a lot time!
i was also one of those which GOM brought to here and to SC overall.
Jaedong! <> Team MVP <> Mouz.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17247 Posts
October 10 2009 14:50 GMT
#86
Whenever I look at this Storm Zerg picture I feel like falling on my knees in awe.

btw. You should look into the Bisu section, some formatting is broken there.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 14:51 GMT
#87
On October 10 2009 23:50 Manit0u wrote:
Whenever I look at this Storm Zerg picture I feel like falling on my knees in awe.

btw. You should look into the Bisu section, some formatting is broken there.


Unfortunately I can't do anything about that. Some of those threads have images that were taken down from hosting as well as html that doesn't work when I use it.
RIP Aaliyah
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
October 10 2009 14:54 GMT
#88
Damn, this is the best article I've read on TL ever. If there was one thing I would show to new friends to teach them about progaming - this would be it.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 14:56 GMT
#89
On October 10 2009 23:54 Sadistx wrote:
Damn, this is the best article I've read on TL ever. If there was one thing I would show to new friends to teach them about progaming - this would be it.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=61851

imo
RIP Aaliyah
Jayme
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States5866 Posts
October 10 2009 15:00 GMT
#90
On October 10 2009 22:33 Rice wrote:
I know im diving into a shit storm with this one but.... why is saviors cj face every single game every single win the definition of personality but with jaedong its apparently a completely different story and he has no personality? (atleast according to the article)


Uh you probably weren't around when Savior was dominant I guess.

Savior had that vibe about him that he KNEW he was good and he KNEW that people didn't stand a god damn chance against him. He looked arrogant and he looked like he knew no one could beat him... just look at the pictures he took back then compared to what he does now. It's such a big difference. He didn't acquire the "death stare" after being beaten once... Savior is basically the guy that invented the yawn rape.
Python is garbage, number 1 advocate of getting rid of it.
thunk
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States6233 Posts
October 10 2009 15:00 GMT
#91
Great Write up.
Every time Jung Myung Hoon builds a vulture, two probes die. || My post count was a palindrome and I was never posting again.
DarkOptik
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
452 Posts
October 10 2009 15:02 GMT
#92
I'm surprised you listed CaSy as a so-called "hero". If I remember correctly, he was quite the one-hit wonder, winning his OSL simply because it was mostly Zerg infested. He was simply a completely abyssal TvP player, a good TvT player, and an S-Class TvZ player known for his astonishing ability to micro marines...which is, as you mentioned, Boxer had already done three hundred times over. So, he hardly brought anything new to the table, had virtually no staying power, and to be honest, faded away the moment he won his OSL.
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
October 10 2009 15:16 GMT
#93
On October 10 2009 23:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 23:54 Sadistx wrote:
Damn, this is the best article I've read on TL ever. If there was one thing I would show to new friends to teach them about progaming - this would be it.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=61851

imo


It's a lot less depth than this tbh.
Rice
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1332 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 15:24:47
October 10 2009 15:17 GMT
#94
On October 11 2009 00:00 Jayme wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 22:33 Rice wrote:
I know im diving into a shit storm with this one but.... why is saviors cj face every single game every single win the definition of personality but with jaedong its apparently a completely different story and he has no personality? (atleast according to the article)


Uh you probably weren't around when Savior was dominant I guess.

Savior had that vibe about him that he KNEW he was good and he KNEW that people didn't stand a god damn chance against him. He looked arrogant and he looked like he knew no one could beat him... just look at the pictures he took back then compared to what he does now. It's such a big difference. He didn't acquire the "death stare" after being beaten once... Savior is basically the guy that invented the yawn rape.


I was around and this is my point exactly...you think jaedong doesnt "KNOW" hes good? perhaps other people are better when you compare jaedong with the rest of the scene and savior in his prime with the rest of the scene but how this changes their "vibe" is beyond me.. just because fans want to label savior as arrogant and see him as some badass based on reading his facial expressions.

Saying 10 gamers COULD be favorites over jaedong in a bo5 series right now is just ridiculous...youd be dumb to bet on anyone other than jaedong just like youd be dumb to bet on anyone over savior. This doesn't mean that they didn't/don't lose any games.

The fact that jaedongs competition is more fierce, in my opinion, should make him just seem all the more dominant...
Freedom will be defended at the cost of civil liberties.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 15:27:25
October 10 2009 15:25 GMT
#95
On October 11 2009 00:17 Rice wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2009 00:00 Jayme wrote:
On October 10 2009 22:33 Rice wrote:
I know im diving into a shit storm with this one but.... why is saviors cj face every single game every single win the definition of personality but with jaedong its apparently a completely different story and he has no personality? (atleast according to the article)


Uh you probably weren't around when Savior was dominant I guess.

Savior had that vibe about him that he KNEW he was good and he KNEW that people didn't stand a god damn chance against him. He looked arrogant and he looked like he knew no one could beat him... just look at the pictures he took back then compared to what he does now. It's such a big difference. He didn't acquire the "death stare" after being beaten once... Savior is basically the guy that invented the yawn rape.


I was around and this is my point exactly...you think jaedong doesnt "KNOW" hes good? perhaps other people are better when you compare jaedong with the rest of the scene and savior in his prime with the rest of the scene but how this changes their "vibe" is beyond me.. just because fans want to label savior as arrogant and see him as some badass based on reading his facial expressions.

Saying 10 gamers COULD be favorites over jaedong in a bo5 series right now is just ridiculous...youd be dumb to bet on anyone other than jaedong just like youd be dumb to bet on anyone over savior. This doesn't mean that they didn't/don't lose any games.

The fact that jaedongs competition is more fierce, in my opinion, should make him just seem all the more dominant...


I would vote for FantaSy over Jaedong. Really. The gap between Jaedong and his counterparts is so small compared to any of the Bonjwa. That's what makes a bonjwa. not stats.
RIP Aaliyah
Railxp
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Hong Kong1313 Posts
October 10 2009 15:27 GMT
#96
absolutely amazing article. two thumbs up!
~\(。◕‿‿◕。)/~,,,,,,,,>
alexpnd
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada1857 Posts
October 10 2009 15:27 GMT
#97
were there ever any real rivalries or just contrived grudge matches?
www.brainyweb.ca //web stuff!
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 15:28 GMT
#98
On October 11 2009 00:27 alexpnd wrote:
were there ever any real rivalries or just contrived grudge matches?


BoxeR/YellOw would be the classic example.
RIP Aaliyah
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
October 10 2009 15:47 GMT
#99
On October 11 2009 00:25 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2009 00:17 Rice wrote:
On October 11 2009 00:00 Jayme wrote:
On October 10 2009 22:33 Rice wrote:
I know im diving into a shit storm with this one but.... why is saviors cj face every single game every single win the definition of personality but with jaedong its apparently a completely different story and he has no personality? (atleast according to the article)


Uh you probably weren't around when Savior was dominant I guess.

Savior had that vibe about him that he KNEW he was good and he KNEW that people didn't stand a god damn chance against him. He looked arrogant and he looked like he knew no one could beat him... just look at the pictures he took back then compared to what he does now. It's such a big difference. He didn't acquire the "death stare" after being beaten once... Savior is basically the guy that invented the yawn rape.


I was around and this is my point exactly...you think jaedong doesnt "KNOW" hes good? perhaps other people are better when you compare jaedong with the rest of the scene and savior in his prime with the rest of the scene but how this changes their "vibe" is beyond me.. just because fans want to label savior as arrogant and see him as some badass based on reading his facial expressions.

Saying 10 gamers COULD be favorites over jaedong in a bo5 series right now is just ridiculous...youd be dumb to bet on anyone other than jaedong just like youd be dumb to bet on anyone over savior. This doesn't mean that they didn't/don't lose any games.

The fact that jaedongs competition is more fierce, in my opinion, should make him just seem all the more dominant...


I would vote for FantaSy over Jaedong. Really. The gap between Jaedong and his counterparts is so small compared to any of the Bonjwa. That's what makes a bonjwa. not stats.

This makes zero sense. Fantasy over Jaedong for bonjwa? Just stupid.
ModeratorGood content always wins.
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
October 10 2009 15:57 GMT
#100
This was a nice article. Will probably generate a lot of controversy.
Jaedong
KristianJS
Profile Joined October 2009
2107 Posts
October 10 2009 15:59 GMT
#101
On October 11 2009 00:47 motbob wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2009 00:25 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 11 2009 00:17 Rice wrote:
On October 11 2009 00:00 Jayme wrote:
On October 10 2009 22:33 Rice wrote:
I know im diving into a shit storm with this one but.... why is saviors cj face every single game every single win the definition of personality but with jaedong its apparently a completely different story and he has no personality? (atleast according to the article)


Uh you probably weren't around when Savior was dominant I guess.

Savior had that vibe about him that he KNEW he was good and he KNEW that people didn't stand a god damn chance against him. He looked arrogant and he looked like he knew no one could beat him... just look at the pictures he took back then compared to what he does now. It's such a big difference. He didn't acquire the "death stare" after being beaten once... Savior is basically the guy that invented the yawn rape.


I was around and this is my point exactly...you think jaedong doesnt "KNOW" hes good? perhaps other people are better when you compare jaedong with the rest of the scene and savior in his prime with the rest of the scene but how this changes their "vibe" is beyond me.. just because fans want to label savior as arrogant and see him as some badass based on reading his facial expressions.

Saying 10 gamers COULD be favorites over jaedong in a bo5 series right now is just ridiculous...youd be dumb to bet on anyone other than jaedong just like youd be dumb to bet on anyone over savior. This doesn't mean that they didn't/don't lose any games.

The fact that jaedongs competition is more fierce, in my opinion, should make him just seem all the more dominant...


I would vote for FantaSy over Jaedong. Really. The gap between Jaedong and his counterparts is so small compared to any of the Bonjwa. That's what makes a bonjwa. not stats.

This makes zero sense. Fantasy over Jaedong for bonjwa? Just stupid.


He's referring to who's the favourite in a Bo5 not who's more Bonjwa-worthy.
You need to be 100% behind someone before you can stab them in the back
GGQ
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada2653 Posts
October 10 2009 16:04 GMT
#102
On October 11 2009 00:16 Sadistx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 23:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 10 2009 23:54 Sadistx wrote:
Damn, this is the best article I've read on TL ever. If there was one thing I would show to new friends to teach them about progaming - this would be it.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=61851

imo


It's a lot less depth than this tbh.


Depth?

"Welcome to the S-class" is a pleasantly readable, well-written article about the state of professional Starcraft. It contains alot of useful information and insight, cleverly organised to delineate a point about the difference between the present and the past of Starcraft, and to speculate about the future of e-sports. Is that depth?

"Only Until Midnight" is not about Starcraft or even the professional Starcraft scene; it's about emotion and being human. The feelings and experiences described are universal, even for someone who doesn't know what Starcraft is. Professional Starcraft is the subject matter, but the article transcends that, and in doing so, it raises professional Starcraft up with it. That's what I consider depth.

I agree with DoctorHelvetica that "Only Until Midnight" is the best article on TL, and the one I would show to new friends to teach them about progaming.

PS I feel a bit like Kanye West. My excuse is that DoctorHelvetica brought it up first
SHr3DD3r
Profile Joined March 2009
Pakistan2137 Posts
October 10 2009 16:04 GMT
#103
Very amazing.
Hit them hard! Hit them low! - Forever a Bisu Fan!~!
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
October 10 2009 16:06 GMT
#104
On October 11 2009 00:59 KristianJS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2009 00:47 motbob wrote:
On October 11 2009 00:25 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 11 2009 00:17 Rice wrote:
On October 11 2009 00:00 Jayme wrote:
On October 10 2009 22:33 Rice wrote:
I know im diving into a shit storm with this one but.... why is saviors cj face every single game every single win the definition of personality but with jaedong its apparently a completely different story and he has no personality? (atleast according to the article)


Uh you probably weren't around when Savior was dominant I guess.

Savior had that vibe about him that he KNEW he was good and he KNEW that people didn't stand a god damn chance against him. He looked arrogant and he looked like he knew no one could beat him... just look at the pictures he took back then compared to what he does now. It's such a big difference. He didn't acquire the "death stare" after being beaten once... Savior is basically the guy that invented the yawn rape.


I was around and this is my point exactly...you think jaedong doesnt "KNOW" hes good? perhaps other people are better when you compare jaedong with the rest of the scene and savior in his prime with the rest of the scene but how this changes their "vibe" is beyond me.. just because fans want to label savior as arrogant and see him as some badass based on reading his facial expressions.

Saying 10 gamers COULD be favorites over jaedong in a bo5 series right now is just ridiculous...youd be dumb to bet on anyone other than jaedong just like youd be dumb to bet on anyone over savior. This doesn't mean that they didn't/don't lose any games.

The fact that jaedongs competition is more fierce, in my opinion, should make him just seem all the more dominant...


I would vote for FantaSy over Jaedong. Really. The gap between Jaedong and his counterparts is so small compared to any of the Bonjwa. That's what makes a bonjwa. not stats.

This makes zero sense. Fantasy over Jaedong for bonjwa? Just stupid.


He's referring to who's the favourite in a Bo5 not who's more Bonjwa-worthy.

Yeah, we know.
Jaedong
Triple7
Profile Joined April 2009
United States656 Posts
October 10 2009 16:06 GMT
#105
[image loading]

WOW. And I thought Jaedong's ZvZ was good...
지지이이이이이이이이이이이
hyst.eric.al
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States2332 Posts
October 10 2009 16:23 GMT
#106
excellent read.

hahah, but when you open up the hidden articles on the players, it becomes longer than War and Peace. (or that discussion on Nada's Body)
Leta , BeSt, Calm fan forever! 김정우, I am sorry I ever lost faith in you.
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
October 10 2009 16:32 GMT
#107
A lot of the newer people don't seem to really understand what it means for a player to have an aura of unbeatability, that feeling that nothing anybody else does will be good enough. When you cross into the territory of the S-class, the sign says: "There be monsters here." But when you cross into the territory of the bonjwas, the sign says: "There be gods here." It's just not something you can appreciate unless you seriously follow progaming through the era of dominance of such a god. All words fail to describe it. Your jaw hangs loose as S-class players break down into tears one-by-one.

When the replay of the MSL game between Savior and Nada got leaked, I think I watched it 60 or 70 times.

Jaedong is today's JulyZerg. Except there's no Oov.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
October 10 2009 16:43 GMT
#108
Can anyone show me Savior's stats at his peak in screenshot? I would probably have to change my pants afterward.
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
Hyperionnn
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Turkey4968 Posts
October 10 2009 16:58 GMT
#109
On October 10 2009 21:08 raga4ka wrote:
"They were just 2 zergs " blablabla . Back then July would have destroyed Bisu if he was able to get past Gorush . After all July has never lost a Bo5 to a protoss ( althought now he is pretty likely to lose ). July beat Bisu in the OSL qualifier just after Bisu destroyed Savior to win the MSL .
Imo Jaedong controling 2 groups of mutas at once is heroic allright , because no one on the planet can do it and that's way it's heroic and what about the Eeee-han timing ? ..... when you mention Nada perfectly cloneing the Yamato it is the same thing .


They were just FUCKING 2 zergs at that time (like bisu and ra considered just 2 tosses for savior at gomtv) because bisu simply buttfucked your bonjwa and he didnt lose any important game in that period (besides 2 cheese lose to flash)

And i think why some people think that bisu is charismatic, because bisu entered the scene with 6-0 msl run, while jaedong entered with a 1-3 loss to rock, and bisu was hope of tosses, jaedong is just best zerg player since 2008, not a hope of a race.
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
October 10 2009 17:32 GMT
#110
Bisu might not have been the originator of the forge fe into sairs, but he is the one that brought it to the absolute forefront of PvZ and turned it into the standard. I don't know how anyone can try to discredit what Bisu has done.
Nosmo
Profile Joined August 2008
Canada210 Posts
October 10 2009 17:33 GMT
#111
Very nice article. Only one mistake: Thezerg played in Incruit, Not Ever 08.
Killer next Bonjwa//Much is also good//Savior what happened//Fuck yeah, Nal_ra!
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
October 10 2009 18:30 GMT
#112
The reason Bisu is considered charismatic is the same reason he's considered arrogant, statements like "insurance terran".
ryuu_
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States1266 Posts
October 10 2009 18:38 GMT
#113
It was definitely worth the long read. Phenomenal. I loved the compilation of Final Edits too, added some really great content and it was nice to reread them too. We'll have to just see this season if JD can really obtain that seat of dominance or if the scene is just going to be a bunch of switch ups. Thanks for this!
♣ Jaedong. Stork. Bisu. Calm. NaDa. SC2: Sen, MKP, DRG, MMA, Grubby, NonY, Ret, Jinro, TLO, Sheth, HayprO, Zenio,Taeja,Snute, Sea, Rain, MC,Squirtle,Stephano,Parting ,Life, and HEROOOOO <3
MutaDoom
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1163 Posts
October 10 2009 18:55 GMT
#114
Oooh I didn't see this before, this should be a good read.
Weryeery
Profile Joined June 2008
288 Posts
October 10 2009 19:14 GMT
#115
You are really harsh with JD.
I really think the whole Batoo OSL final was truely heroic. Coming back from 0-2 to 2-2 and in the last game sensing the vulture jump, surrounding it with 2 ling and 1 drone and killing it with the fucking drone... You just cant say it was not heroic.
Sabu113
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States11047 Posts
October 10 2009 19:18 GMT
#116
I wonder how different this would be if JD had taken the the other two trophies or Stork had given up WoW.
Biomine is a drunken chick who is on industrial strength amphetamines and would just grab your dick and jerk it as hard and violently as she could while screaming 'OMG FUCK ME', because she saw it in a Sasha Grey video ...-Wombat_Ni
QibingZero
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
2611 Posts
October 10 2009 19:26 GMT
#117
Unfortunately, I'm having a hard time viewing this article (and a lot of your comments) as more than problematic. I know you put a lot of work into this, so I'll try to be more constructive and less insulting with this post.

I don't think a lot of your player comparisons are apt. Much of what you write is, in fact, opinion and I respect that. It's just that certain statements don't match up. This is a good example:

On October 11 2009 00:27 alexpnd wrote:
were there ever any real rivalries or just contrived grudge matches?


A solid question, with a lot of relevance to your article. Boxer/Yellow is the perfect example of a real rivalry. The two met countless times, and even though Boxer won the big leagues, Yellow was always there to try to take one for himself. Some of the 'rivalries' mentioned in the article were a bit contrived though. Boxer vs Anytime was never really a rivalry - it was just an interesting finals matchup. Garimto and even Nal_ra were more significant protoss rivals of Boxer than Anytime was. Savior and Nada also weren't rivals in much the same fashion. Nada almost always played well vs Savior - even after the OSL loss - he just wasn't in the picture enough afterward to slow down Savior's dominance. For a rivalry to really take foot, the players have to continually meet in significant matches. This is why it now seems like fantasy is a rival of Jaedong, rather than last year when it was obvious that Flash was Jaedong's rival.

I'm not sure how you reconcile writing an expansive article like this with the fact you haven't been following Starcraft progaming for many of the events you describe. The history of the progaming scene is very much there for the viewing, but you can't really make claims about dominance and such when you weren't there to 'feel' it. Looking back on even Savior's dominating presence, someone new to Starcraft who has only seen Jaedong play in no way could appreciate what was going on. Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

On October 10 2009 20:22 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I would not be even slightly surprised is Jaedong lost a Bo5 3-1 or 3-2 to any of the aforementioned players.

I would have shit my pants if BoxeR lost a series to anyone at his peak.


Despite the fact that pretty much everyone would be surprised if Jaedong lost a bo5, it's the second part which I'm referring the most to. Boxer was dominant, but it wasn't too surprising when he lost a series to a protoss player at the time. Boxer's TvP as a whole was an extension of his games with Nal_ra. He always put up a good fight, and made it look interesting by locking down carriers or something, but ended up losing in the end. He was Boxer, and fans expected him to win, but he's never dominated TvP anywhere near in the fashion he did with TvZ.

I find it silly to compare this to Jaedong's current status. Jaedong is strong in all matchups, and has won an OSL finals against each. It's very difficult to argue against that kind of dominance. The bo5s Jaedong has lost since his opening one vs Rock back in the day are one against a teammate (Forgg), and one against Calm during a time in which Jaedong was deep in both starleagues and the proleague playoffs. Most previous 'heroes' did not have to worry about such a demanding schedule. If Jaedong has time to practice, he is the clear favorite in any bo5. Even against Bisu, even against Flash:

On October 10 2009 19:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Also I'm not convinced he's better than FlaSh at his peak. Never forget 2008.


Ah yes, 2008. The year in which Jaedong beat Flash in not one, but two bo5s. Nothing against Flash (as you'll see in a second), but Jaedong was the better player at the time, and still is today.

Oh, and against fantasy:

On October 10 2009 22:31 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 22:21 chongu wrote:
AWESOME article!!!! TL for LIEF!!! But seriously.... Fantasy has personality? : 3

and i really liked your percussion analogy and that you concluded the article by looking towards SC2... i'm so hyped


Yes actually he does. He's kind of cocky. Helps being the best terran in the world.


Fantasy remains extremely overhyped, largely due to his status as SKT's terran and Boxer/oov successor. He's not the best terran in the world - Flash is. I don't even think that's an argument. Also, I don't really see fantasy as cocky. I see him as a young player influenced heavily by his teachers (and who wouldn't be considering who they are) who is incredibly unreliable when games don't go as planned.

On October 11 2009 00:25 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I would vote for FantaSy over Jaedong. Really. The gap between Jaedong and his counterparts is so small compared to any of the Bonjwa. That's what makes a bonjwa. not stats.


It has to be said... over time: there is less left in the game to improve upon; there are more players competing; and players are starting at a younger age. All of these things complicate how dominance works. As other posters have mentioned, it's more impressive that Jaedong is able to dominate on a similar level to older gamers due to the current level of competition and how little separates players in terms of raw skill and mechanics.

As for Jaedong as a 'hero', that's very subjective, as you yourself admit:

On October 10 2009 21:55 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2009 21:50 meegrean wrote:
-Jaedong is a hero in my opinion. Why should perfect mechanics be considered different from creative play? As long as you have a special characteristic that gives you dominating results, it should make you a hero. Also, take a look at his Kespa ranking.
-Bisu is also kinda a hero too. I only wished he had won an OSL though.
-Flash is sickly good, but he can't seem to win more titles so no, he's not a hero.

I guess my definition of hero is strongly influenced by a player's accomplishments.


I'm not defining hero by statistics alone. But it's all relative.



It is relative. Your heroes will be different from someone elses. I personally believe Jaedong is more of a hero than Bisu or fantasy, and you think otherwise. This poster makes a good point:

On October 10 2009 22:00 Loffeman wrote:
I think JD is very carismatic in his own way as well. There is something in his focus and his stare that I gotta love.


Jaedong's resolve is what makes him a hero to many of us. Jaedong has admitted in the past that he doesn't think he has the raw skill of many players out there, but that his work ethic and practice make up for it. It's not just that, though. It's his stare. If you watch him when he plays the game, you quickly notice he is the most intense player out there. Unlike many players out there who appear to be browsing or something, you can tell he's playing just by watching him. It's this kind of thing that makes him an icon, in my opinion. His stare has defined the starcraft of the last two years, and threatens to do so for some time to come.

[image loading]

I don't find that a lack of personality, nor do I call it stagnation. I call it the mark of a hero.
Oh, my eSports
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10691 Posts
October 10 2009 19:36 GMT
#118
Jaedongs stare is wtf awesome.

Voting for Fantasy or Flash in a BO5 over Jaedong is, given the facts, just plain stupid. It's not some sort of bias, it's based on results.
disciple
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
9070 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-13 14:40:56
October 10 2009 19:39 GMT
#119
Bisu is a novelty, thats why till this point his role seem more important to the scene than Jaedong's. Because of KTY, protoss actually start winning. First Toss to make it to 3 finals in a row, first toss to become #1 in KeSPa, first toss to win WCG... Skills shouldnt came into comparison. The only reason I see way Bisu has a hero status, and Jaedong doesnt is because Bisu stands out so much more when you put him to all other progamers who played protoss

edit: i love savior
Administrator"I'm a big deal." - ixmike88
DivinO
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States4796 Posts
October 10 2009 19:41 GMT
#120
Amazing write-up!

Thanks DH
LiquipediaBrain in my filth.
Camlito
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Australia4040 Posts
October 10 2009 19:45 GMT
#121
On October 11 2009 04:39 disciple wrote:
Bisu is a novelty, thats why till this point his role seem more important to the scene than Jaedong's. Because of KTY, protoss actually start winning. First Toss to make it to 3 finals in a row, first toss to become #1 in KeSPa, first toss to win WCG... Skills shouldnt came into comparison. The only reason I see way Bisu has a hero status, and Jaedong doesnt is because Bisu stands out so much more when you put him to all other progamers who played protoss



Agreed. Although by "other progamers who played protoss" you mean most other than Nal_rA and Reach right? They were pretty influential with macro and strategy.
sAviOr...
Hyperionnn
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Turkey4968 Posts
October 10 2009 20:33 GMT
#122
they were fucking good and infuential but they werent dominant at all
snarl
Profile Joined July 2004
Canada812 Posts
October 10 2009 20:40 GMT
#123
Reach and rA were great, but I agree with disciple in that Bisu is the protoss hero. I remember when Reach was the only toss in the OSL and the zealot bombs, and when rA was the only toss who PvZ'd decently with his Sair/Reaver. But Bisu came, he saw, and he dismantled the best player in the world 3-0. I didn't see too much into the victory at the time since I was still hoping for a Mantoss comeback but in retrospect, he really did shock the BW world.

That and Bisu makes the fangirls go wild.
ccou
Profile Joined December 2008
United States681 Posts
October 10 2009 21:09 GMT
#124
Before I start, I must say that out of the three kings of this era: (Z)Jaedong, (P)Bisu, and (T)Flash. I like Jaedong the most and Bisu the least; nevertheless, Jaedong does not have the influence that Bisu has. He is also not a clear favorite over Bisu in head-to-head.

You guys were discussing charisma and heroism based on statistics before, so I dug up a couple of things. The first is from the recent All-Star Poll

Terrans

1. (T)BoxeR - 6120 - 17.46%
2. (T)Flash - 5549 - 15.83%
3. (T)fantasy - 4751 - 13.55%
4. (T)NaDa - 2280 - 6.5%
5. (T)Hwasin - 2168 - 6.19%

Zerg

1. (Z)sAviOr - 6522 - 18.61%
2. (Z)YellOw - 6203 - 17.7%
3. (Z)Jaedong - 5756 - 16.42%
4. (Z)EffOrt - 2940 - 8.39%
5. (Z)Hyuk - 2145 - 6.12%

Protoss

1. (P)Bisu - 7796 - 22.24%
2. (P)Stork - 5321 - 15.18%
3. (P)BeSt - 4680 - 13.35%
4. (P)Reach - 3031 - 8.65%
5. (P)Anytime - 1587 - 4.53%


The second is from PoP's Ask for stats! thread:

Pre-Bisu-vs-Savior ZvP: 682-547 (55.49%)
Post-Bisu-vs-Savior ZvP: 300-308 (49.34%)

Revolution much?


Bisu flipped an entire match up. From the poll, he's the all time champion of protoss.

In terms of skill, there's no question when Bisu and Jaedong met during GOM, the last game could have went either way. Both players reported that they felt robbed from a deciding match. Bisu and Jaedong are nearly 50/50 (7-6) in matchs over lifetime. It's a coin-flip.

Many of you have mentioned how Jaedong can be seen as hero due to his brilliant game against Iris or his games against fantasy. The thing is, EVERYONE shows great games from time to time. Jaedong's games never changed a match up. Not like Bisu v Savior. Heck, a small tangent: there's always talk about how Fantasy is not innovative beyond his best laid plans and that he cannot even be called a challenger to the top 3, but take a look at game #5 on MBC's top 100 proleague games: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=50875&currentpage=302

(T)fantasy realized his worsening situation and switch from SK to mass tanks while keeping up harrassment. He adapted and prevailed... against none other than (Z)Jaedong.

The bottomline is that Jaedong is dominant, but not more than Bisu. While Flash hasn't been making splashes in OSL/MSL lately, he's still as strong of a player as Jaedong or Bisu. None of the three have an aura of invincibility. As for losing to (Z)Calm, (T)fantasy, (P)Stork, (Z)EffOrt? Not surprising.
Wake up Mr. B!
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 21:34:24
October 10 2009 21:23 GMT
#125
Jaedong brought a lot of change to ZvZ by reintroducing overgas builds when Raid Assult 2 was brought back. In ZvP he's the first person to have really brought out the modern mutahydra ideas in his games against Bisu on Colosseum and Othello, and he brought back 2hatch muta builds prominently enough for them not to be completely map dependent, gimmicky builds. .

He seriously has done quite a bit. Saying that Jaedong hasn't changed any of the three matchups is just complete ignorance.

It is true that Jaedong first rose to prominence being a super strong, mechanical, standard player, particularly during the LeeSsang era, but he has been innovating, and he has brought changes to Zerg. It just doesn't really seem like Jaedong didn't change anything for a lot of people because a lot of the changes he brought were either subtle, like a lot of his ZvZ innovations, or revivals of old things that were considered to be obsolete and showing that they are still viable.

ZvZ has changed so much ever since Jaedong has taken control of the matchup that it's ridiculous.
ccou
Profile Joined December 2008
United States681 Posts
October 10 2009 21:29 GMT
#126
Not like Bisu v Savior.

Talking about magnitude here. I haven't really seen a lot of mutahydra or queen/defiler or 2 control group mutas. Safe to say Fantasy had greater influence than Jaedong because of mech. Xellos/Goodfriend changed TvT, Midas put out modern TvP ideas, none of them are bonjwas.
Wake up Mr. B!
aG.Admirai
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada55 Posts
October 10 2009 21:30 GMT
#127
I like the banner and pics. Good read too.
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21242 Posts
October 10 2009 21:42 GMT
#128
I think parts of this strayed from your main topic, but they were definitely interesting tangents.

Thanks for the write up! Seems like it could be a Final Edit.
TranslatorBaa!
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 21:45:33
October 10 2009 21:43 GMT
#129
On October 11 2009 06:29 ccou wrote:
Not like Bisu v Savior.

Talking about magnitude here. I haven't really seen a lot of mutahydra or queen/defiler or 2 control group mutas. Safe to say Fantasy had greater influence than Jaedong because of mech. Xellos/Goodfriend changed TvT, Midas put out modern TvP ideas, none of them are bonjwas.

huh? mutahydra was very popular for a time, and the concept of sniping templars with mutalisks have become very solidified and you see Zergs doing it far more than they ever have before. Build trends in ZvP have changed lately though. 2 control mutas is just something that can happen; I have no idea why you even brought that out. 2hatch muta does not equal 2 groups of mutas.

And why did you bring out the bonjwa question as well? What does that have to do with anything of me saying that you're a fool if you think Jaedong wasn't involved in changing all three of the Zerg matchups. You also didn't include magnitude in your previous post. You just simply said that Jaedong didn't change any matchup. Which is hilariously wrong.

What changes did Fantasy make that were more significant than Jaedong? Okay, Fantasy refined his style of mech although Flash had started the revival of mech builds before him, and Upmagic developed a different style of mech. The really unique thing that Fantasy brought was his TvZ bachanic builds. Even besides all that, the mech builds that most people use isn't the Fantasy style mech but the Upmagic style mech. For TvP he introduced a more harassment focused style that was different from the style that Flash standardized, but Flash's style is still far more solid and prevalent in the scene.

KlaCkoN
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Sweden1661 Posts
October 10 2009 21:53 GMT
#130
A quick look at TLPD says this:
Savior won 6 titles (4 gold 2 silver) over a period of ~2 years and 10 months counting from the start of the first league to the final of the last one.
Jaedong won 6 titles (5 golds 1 silver) over a period of 2 years and 11 months using the same method of counting.
And Jaedongs pro leage record >>> Saviors.
People around here tend to overestimate Savior imo, yea there is no doubt that he was awe inspiring and great. But don't forget that until the very last 3 months of his reign he lost in the OSL offline qualifiers to the scrubs of that time over and over again. If fantasy hypothetical ability to beat jaedong in a bo5 (not that he ever has) disqualifies jaedong from bonjwa why doesn't saviors inability to consistently win vs scrubs disqualify him?
I realize that people love nostalgia, but it's a pity when it prevents them from admiring the great brood war players right under their noses. During flash's quick surge to dominance he was about as likely to win any given game as iloveoov was during his, yet people would still cry that "macro has made everyone equally skilled nowadays".
"Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders ... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
blue_arrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
1971 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 22:29:37
October 10 2009 22:28 GMT
#131
Here, I must quote this old and gay fictional wizard who originated from the mind of a middle aged British woman:

"For I see now that what I have done, and not done, with regard to you, bears all the hallmarks of the failings of age. Youth cannot know how age thinks and feels. But old men are guilty if they forget what it was to be young...and I seem to have forgotten lately. But you still must know to respect those with experience Harry, or else imma Petrificus Totalus you and rape ya up the ass, you hear?"

with that said I now come to say that bisu is the best player ever and that every single one of the players before him would've never matched up to him and were nowhere as revolutionary whilst all the newer players aren't as and will never ever forever be as amazingingly influential and heroic as him bisu ftw yep

EDIT: btw thanks for the great article
| MLIA | the weather sucks dick here
darktreb
Profile Joined May 2007
United States3016 Posts
October 10 2009 22:49 GMT
#132
People please stop comparing records when comparing Jaedong to Savior

If Jaedong lost a BO5 to Bisu/Flash/Fantasy/Effort/Calm tomorrow would you be surprised? Yes. But would you be STUNNED? No.

Here is the difference - and please try to understand that if you weren't there to see it, you just can't quite fully appreciate the magnitude of it:

Once upon a time people would have bet their lives on a Savior Starleague BoX, especially if it was not ZvZ. Before Bisu I think Savior went something like 26-1 in BoX series, with the only loss being a ZvZ BO5 in the MSL finals. I'm not sure what his non ZvZ BoX record was but it must have been something like 20-0?
blue_arrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
1971 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 23:01:04
October 10 2009 22:58 GMT
#133
On December 21 2012 07:49 darktreb wrote:
People please stop comparing records when comparing Jaedong to Savior

If Jaedong lost a BO5 to Bisu/Flash/Fantasy/Effort/Calm tomorrow would you be surprised? Yes. But would you be STUNNED? No.

Here is the difference - and please try to understand that if you weren't there to see it, you just can't quite fully appreciate the magnitude of it:

Once upon a time people would have bet their lives on a Savior Starleague BoX, especially if it was not ZvZ. Before Bisu I think Savior went something like 26-1 in BoX series, with the only loss being a ZvZ BO5 in the MSL finals. I'm not sure what his non ZvZ BoX record was but it must have been something like 20-0?



... facepalm
| MLIA | the weather sucks dick here
]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
October 10 2009 23:02 GMT
#134
[B]On October 11 2009 01:06 Triple7 wrote:
WOW. And I thought Jaedong's ZvZ was good...


dude he went up to 27-0.

nice read; I would also disagree about Jaedong "lacking personality" - his stare is, really, reminiscent of the CJ face. I guess his "cold" personality could be extended to "robotic"; maybe that's what the OP interprets it as? And jd's made lots of subtle changes to the game, but nothing "obvious/major."

I feel like OP picked fantasy purely because he's the latest guy to come up with a "totally" new build that becomes mainstream. and he's pretty good.
Writer
ImNotBisu
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada142 Posts
October 10 2009 23:13 GMT
#135
I probably have a better chance of developing a rectal hernia tomorrow morning than Best winning either the MSL or the OSL.
DarkOptik
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
452 Posts
October 10 2009 23:18 GMT
#136
On October 11 2009 07:49 darktreb wrote:
People please stop comparing records when comparing Jaedong to Savior

If Jaedong lost a BO5 to Bisu/Flash/Fantasy/Effort/Calm tomorrow would you be surprised? Yes. But would you be STUNNED? No.

Here is the difference - and please try to understand that if you weren't there to see it, you just can't quite fully appreciate the magnitude of it:

Once upon a time people would have bet their lives on a Savior Starleague BoX, especially if it was not ZvZ. Before Bisu I think Savior went something like 26-1 in BoX series, with the only loss being a ZvZ BO5 in the MSL finals. I'm not sure what his non ZvZ BoX record was but it must have been something like 20-0?


I'm sorry, but if you're going to first claim statistics aren't relevant, and then proceed use them, you should at the very least check if they're correct first. A bit of digging in the TLPD would find that he lost plenty more than 0 non ZvZ BoX.
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 23:26:42
October 10 2009 23:24 GMT
#137
On October 11 2009 07:49 darktreb wrote:
People please stop comparing records when comparing Jaedong to Savior

If Jaedong lost a BO5 to Bisu/Flash/Fantasy/Effort/Calm tomorrow would you be surprised? Yes. But would you be STUNNED? No.

Here is the difference - and please try to understand that if you weren't there to see it, you just can't quite fully appreciate the magnitude of it:

Once upon a time people would have bet their lives on a Savior Starleague BoX, especially if it was not ZvZ. Before Bisu I think Savior went something like 26-1 in BoX series, with the only loss being a ZvZ BO5 in the MSL finals. I'm not sure what his non ZvZ BoX record was but it must have been something like 20-0?


Dominant with a contingency plan eh?
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
Husky
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3362 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 23:34:57
October 10 2009 23:34 GMT
#138
Jaedong will always be my Bonjwa. I dont see how anyone with that many titles, insane winning record, low loss streaks and disgusting win streaks can not be considered one.

I dont know all the technicalities and mumbo-jumbo of it all, but damn he's good.

As for the write up, i loved it. Thank you for all the time you put into this, I agreed with just about all of it.

I would 5/5 if i could.
Commentaries: youtube.com/HuskyStarcraft
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 23:39:32
October 10 2009 23:38 GMT
#139
On October 11 2009 06:09 ccou wrote:

You guys were discussing charisma and heroism based on statistics before, so I dug up a couple of things. The first is from the recent All-Star Poll

Show nested quote +
Terrans

1. (T)BoxeR - 6120 - 17.46%
2. (T)Flash - 5549 - 15.83%
3. (T)fantasy - 4751 - 13.55%
4. (T)NaDa - 2280 - 6.5%
5. (T)Hwasin - 2168 - 6.19%

Zerg

1. (Z)sAviOr - 6522 - 18.61%
2. (Z)YellOw - 6203 - 17.7%
3. (Z)Jaedong - 5756 - 16.42%
4. (Z)EffOrt - 2940 - 8.39%
5. (Z)Hyuk - 2145 - 6.12%

Protoss

1. (P)Bisu - 7796 - 22.24%
2. (P)Stork - 5321 - 15.18%
3. (P)BeSt - 4680 - 13.35%
4. (P)Reach - 3031 - 8.65%
5. (P)Anytime - 1587 - 4.53%




You're sighting this as evidence of charisma? Have you not thought about this at all?

Maybe the fact that voters were aware that a team gets to send a rep of their choice regardless of vote count. I mean, in reality, there is a pretty low chance of Oz sending Jaedong right?

Maybe the fact that there are much more consistent and favorite zerg players than protoss? BeSt came in third for god's sake...
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
iSiN
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1075 Posts
October 10 2009 23:40 GMT
#140
If anyone could be defined as bonjwa it would be him; however his lack of personality and the competition that faces him has kept him from the hero status that even a less dominant player such as Bisu held. Jaedong hasn't done too much to revolutionize zerg beyond sAviOr's innovations besides perfecting what the maestro had laid out for him. Bisu is known as the revolutionist and while he may never have the statistics of Jaedong; his charm, game changing play, and legendary status propel him onto that hero echelon that Jaedong stands so near to. Yet, he is still not what we would call a bonjwa. Where are we without a Bonjwa's dominance or a Hero's charm?


Saying Jaedong has no charm or personality is somewhat demeaning. He may not be as iconic as boxer (who is?) but I think he has quite a personality and just as much charm. Now when I say personality I think you can feel lee jae dong's presence yet you can't feel the presence of someone like fantasy (who imo is A class at best) that stare and the focus/determination you can literally feel it. It's not about innovating the match ups, you could possibly say that he's innovated the whole game with his ludicrous apm (if you can't match my mechanics you can't win is a shift in the meta-game to me)

As for charm, the only thing I ever saw boxer do that was as charming as this was the sound alike video he did for his fans.


as for personality the only pro gamer that REALLY has it anymore is FBH and I absolutely hate FBH but he shows he's actually a person (WITH HUMOR) and not just a macro bot that only cares about the respect of his peers.



Final thought: Is this article suggesting that Nick "Tasteless" Plott is the current bonjwa of starcraft?????if so I approve.
Grouty @HoN/PCKJ <--<333 || Jaedong Fan Cafe GFX
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 23:44 GMT
#141
I would again like to point out that the point of this article was not to objectify heroism or anything. It is purely my opinion and how I see the past, present, and future of the scene. A lot of people feel Jaedong is Bonjwa, Jaedong has a lot of fans here on TL and I also love Jaedong.

Bisu is my least favorite player. I also hate Reach.

I don't want to argue with anyone in this thread about Jaedong because some people will see him as a hero, others won't. However if you really compare the impact he's had on the scene to nal.rA, BoxeR, NaDa, or YellOw, it doesn't stack up.
RIP Aaliyah
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
October 10 2009 23:48 GMT
#142
On October 11 2009 08:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I would again like to point out that the point of this article was not to objectify heroism or anything. It is purely my opinion and how I see the past, present, and future of the scene. A lot of people feel Jaedong is Bonjwa, Jaedong has a lot of fans here on TL and I also love Jaedong.

Bisu is my least favorite player. I also hate Reach.

I don't want to argue with anyone in this thread about Jaedong because some people will see him as a hero, others won't. However if you really compare the impact he's had on the scene to nal.rA, BoxeR, NaDa, or YellOw, it doesn't stack up.


I still think you are missing the argument here. No, JD has not yet had the impact that Boxer, Nada or YellOw have.

If you are going to include Bisu, then you should absolutely include Jaedong. If you don't then, obviously, your article is going to draw controversy.
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 23:49 GMT
#143
On October 11 2009 08:48 keV. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2009 08:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I would again like to point out that the point of this article was not to objectify heroism or anything. It is purely my opinion and how I see the past, present, and future of the scene. A lot of people feel Jaedong is Bonjwa, Jaedong has a lot of fans here on TL and I also love Jaedong.

Bisu is my least favorite player. I also hate Reach.

I don't want to argue with anyone in this thread about Jaedong because some people will see him as a hero, others won't. However if you really compare the impact he's had on the scene to nal.rA, BoxeR, NaDa, or YellOw, it doesn't stack up.


I still think you are missing the argument here. No, JD has not yet had the impact that Boxer, Nada or YellOw have.

If you are going to include Bisu, then you should absolutely include Jaedong. If you don't then, obviously, your article is going to draw controversy.


Like I said, I feel that Jaedong is almost there but not quite. I feel Bisu had that status. I was fully aware and even said to myself "this might upset Jaedong fans". But I'm not going to change my article to satisfy other peoples opinions.
RIP Aaliyah
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
October 10 2009 23:50 GMT
#144
typo over...

a Michael Jordon
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 10 2009 23:51 GMT
#145
On October 11 2009 08:50 SilverSkyLark wrote:
typo over...
Show nested quote +

a Michael Jordon


Thanks. Corrected.
RIP Aaliyah
GeneralStan
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States4789 Posts
October 10 2009 23:54 GMT
#146
Frankly, it feels like you started off with a point you wanted to make, and researched around it.

We're in the midst of Jaedong's dominance. I know this has been stated before, but the Jaedong - Fantasy rivalry is made of the stuff of heroism. Jaedong's shocking turn around in one finals, and bouncing back to thoroughly dismantle Fantasy after his losses in the Proleague grand finals (after the usual courtesy game 1). He caps it off with by slaughtering Yarnc like the lamb he was to take home only the third Golden Mouse ever.

If you're going to call Casy and Bisu heroes. Heck, Jaedong's period of dominance blows Yellow's painful reign of silver mining clear out of the water.

Basically the article is coming off as blind admiration of the past in ignorance of the presence, using some bizarre metric of the past being better to justify some distaste for Jaedong.

What I think you forget the most is how we have the luxury of looking to past players and knowing they didn't lose the important games. During the time, it was just as possible for a relative no name to come from nowhere and knock any of the Bonjwas off their throne.

If Jaedong wins the OSL this year, people are going to look back a few years and see this whole period as one long story of his domination. Even if now, he won the golden mouse. Your excuse of Jaedong lacking some nebulous definition of 'charisma' is lame at best
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-10 23:58:32
October 10 2009 23:57 GMT
#147
Yep. Jaedong is far more dominant than YellOw ever was and is a much better player than anyone. He is the absolute pinnacle of mechanical skill and will almost certainly never be passed in physical prowess.

Your perspective is different and thats fine, although I can't disagree with statistics and obviously Jaedong is a very dominant player.

I am a jaedong fan, he is one of my favorite players ever. I don't dislike him. I'm not using this article as a front for hating Jaedong. He isn't a bonjwa and he isn't to me a hero. The latter point is utterly and massively subjective, i say so in my article, and i say so later.

This is meant to be an entertaining read not a thesis paper about how much Jaedong sucks.
RIP Aaliyah
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
October 11 2009 00:00 GMT
#148
On October 11 2009 08:49 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2009 08:48 keV. wrote:
On October 11 2009 08:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I would again like to point out that the point of this article was not to objectify heroism or anything. It is purely my opinion and how I see the past, present, and future of the scene. A lot of people feel Jaedong is Bonjwa, Jaedong has a lot of fans here on TL and I also love Jaedong.

Bisu is my least favorite player. I also hate Reach.

I don't want to argue with anyone in this thread about Jaedong because some people will see him as a hero, others won't. However if you really compare the impact he's had on the scene to nal.rA, BoxeR, NaDa, or YellOw, it doesn't stack up.


I still think you are missing the argument here. No, JD has not yet had the impact that Boxer, Nada or YellOw have.

If you are going to include Bisu, then you should absolutely include Jaedong. If you don't then, obviously, your article is going to draw controversy.


Like I said, I feel that Jaedong is almost there but not quite. I feel Bisu had that status. I was fully aware and even said to myself "this might upset Jaedong fans". But I'm not going to change my article to satisfy other peoples opinions.


Obviously, its retarded for you to even think that someone wants you to change your article.

That doesn't mean its not in my, or any other reader's, right to ensure that our comments try and strip away the articles "opinion-facts" into just being an opinion. You can say its your opinion all you want, but it doesn't read that way and you know it...
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 00:03:12
October 11 2009 00:01 GMT
#149
On October 11 2009 09:00 keV. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2009 08:49 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 11 2009 08:48 keV. wrote:
On October 11 2009 08:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I would again like to point out that the point of this article was not to objectify heroism or anything. It is purely my opinion and how I see the past, present, and future of the scene. A lot of people feel Jaedong is Bonjwa, Jaedong has a lot of fans here on TL and I also love Jaedong.

Bisu is my least favorite player. I also hate Reach.

I don't want to argue with anyone in this thread about Jaedong because some people will see him as a hero, others won't. However if you really compare the impact he's had on the scene to nal.rA, BoxeR, NaDa, or YellOw, it doesn't stack up.


I still think you are missing the argument here. No, JD has not yet had the impact that Boxer, Nada or YellOw have.

If you are going to include Bisu, then you should absolutely include Jaedong. If you don't then, obviously, your article is going to draw controversy.


Like I said, I feel that Jaedong is almost there but not quite. I feel Bisu had that status. I was fully aware and even said to myself "this might upset Jaedong fans". But I'm not going to change my article to satisfy other peoples opinions.


Obviously, its retarded for you to even think that someone wants you to change your article.

That doesn't mean its not in my, or any other reader's, right to ensure that our comments try and strip away the articles "opinion-facts" into just being an opinion. You can say its your opinion all you want, but it doesn't read that way and you know it...


Do you want me to apologize or something? Any editorial is filled with opinion mixed with facts. If you can't distinguish the opinions I'm sorry. It would be "retarded" to even attempt to "prove" Jaedong isn't a "hero."

It is the readers responsibility to distinguish between what is subjective and objective in the context of the article.
RIP Aaliyah
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 00:07:27
October 11 2009 00:06 GMT
#150
On October 11 2009 09:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2009 09:00 keV. wrote:
On October 11 2009 08:49 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 11 2009 08:48 keV. wrote:
On October 11 2009 08:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I would again like to point out that the point of this article was not to objectify heroism or anything. It is purely my opinion and how I see the past, present, and future of the scene. A lot of people feel Jaedong is Bonjwa, Jaedong has a lot of fans here on TL and I also love Jaedong.

Bisu is my least favorite player. I also hate Reach.

I don't want to argue with anyone in this thread about Jaedong because some people will see him as a hero, others won't. However if you really compare the impact he's had on the scene to nal.rA, BoxeR, NaDa, or YellOw, it doesn't stack up.


I still think you are missing the argument here. No, JD has not yet had the impact that Boxer, Nada or YellOw have.

If you are going to include Bisu, then you should absolutely include Jaedong. If you don't then, obviously, your article is going to draw controversy.


Like I said, I feel that Jaedong is almost there but not quite. I feel Bisu had that status. I was fully aware and even said to myself "this might upset Jaedong fans". But I'm not going to change my article to satisfy other peoples opinions.


Obviously, its retarded for you to even think that someone wants you to change your article.

That doesn't mean its not in my, or any other reader's, right to ensure that our comments try and strip away the articles "opinion-facts" into just being an opinion. You can say its your opinion all you want, but it doesn't read that way and you know it...


Do you want me to apologize or something? Any editorial is filled with opinion mixed with facts. If you can't distinguish the opinions I'm sorry. It would be "retarded" to even attempt to "prove" Jaedong isn't a "hero."

It is the readers responsibility to distinguish between what is subjective and objective in the
context of the article.


Yea, and then post the distinctions here.

(I just said that)
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 00:10:40
October 11 2009 00:08 GMT
#151
On October 11 2009 09:06 keV. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2009 09:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 11 2009 09:00 keV. wrote:
On October 11 2009 08:49 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 11 2009 08:48 keV. wrote:
On October 11 2009 08:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I would again like to point out that the point of this article was not to objectify heroism or anything. It is purely my opinion and how I see the past, present, and future of the scene. A lot of people feel Jaedong is Bonjwa, Jaedong has a lot of fans here on TL and I also love Jaedong.

Bisu is my least favorite player. I also hate Reach.

I don't want to argue with anyone in this thread about Jaedong because some people will see him as a hero, others won't. However if you really compare the impact he's had on the scene to nal.rA, BoxeR, NaDa, or YellOw, it doesn't stack up.


I still think you are missing the argument here. No, JD has not yet had the impact that Boxer, Nada or YellOw have.

If you are going to include Bisu, then you should absolutely include Jaedong. If you don't then, obviously, your article is going to draw controversy.


Like I said, I feel that Jaedong is almost there but not quite. I feel Bisu had that status. I was fully aware and even said to myself "this might upset Jaedong fans". But I'm not going to change my article to satisfy other peoples opinions.


Obviously, its retarded for you to even think that someone wants you to change your article.

That doesn't mean its not in my, or any other reader's, right to ensure that our comments try and strip away the articles "opinion-facts" into just being an opinion. You can say its your opinion all you want, but it doesn't read that way and you know it...


Do you want me to apologize or something? Any editorial is filled with opinion mixed with facts. If you can't distinguish the opinions I'm sorry. It would be "retarded" to even attempt to "prove" Jaedong isn't a "hero."

It is the readers responsibility to distinguish between what is subjective and objective in the
context of the article.


Yea, and then post the distinctions here.

(I just said that)


Well, then you're going to be very disappointed as I refuse to argue my subjective definition of a relative term concerning korean teenagers.

You literally want me to apologize for not including Jaedong in a subjective echelon of progamers and then post objective distinctions as to why Jaedong does not have subjective and unquantifiable characteristics that some other players do?
RIP Aaliyah
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33347 Posts
October 11 2009 00:12 GMT
#152
worth chiming in to say Only Until Midnight is indeed, the best TLFE ever written.
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 11 2009 00:13 GMT
#153
I could go right on and call Leta a hero for whatever subjective reasons might satisfy me and it would be pointless to argue because it's an opinion based on a relative/subjective term. It's like arguing over the definition of respect when really you're just throwing your differing perspectives at eachother with no result but mutual frustration.
RIP Aaliyah
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 00:14:07
October 11 2009 00:13 GMT
#154
On October 11 2009 09:12 Waxangel wrote:
worth chiming in to say Only Until Midnight is indeed, the best TLFE ever written.


Honesttea is the SlayerS_BoxeR of BroodWar writing.

god he's so good

i actually would put The Storm Zerg in that tier.
RIP Aaliyah
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 00:15:53
October 11 2009 00:14 GMT
#155
On October 11 2009 09:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2009 09:06 keV. wrote:
On October 11 2009 09:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 11 2009 09:00 keV. wrote:
On October 11 2009 08:49 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 11 2009 08:48 keV. wrote:
On October 11 2009 08:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I would again like to point out that the point of this article was not to objectify heroism or anything. It is purely my opinion and how I see the past, present, and future of the scene. A lot of people feel Jaedong is Bonjwa, Jaedong has a lot of fans here on TL and I also love Jaedong.

Bisu is my least favorite player. I also hate Reach.

I don't want to argue with anyone in this thread about Jaedong because some people will see him as a hero, others won't. However if you really compare the impact he's had on the scene to nal.rA, BoxeR, NaDa, or YellOw, it doesn't stack up.


I still think you are missing the argument here. No, JD has not yet had the impact that Boxer, Nada or YellOw have.

If you are going to include Bisu, then you should absolutely include Jaedong. If you don't then, obviously, your article is going to draw controversy.


Like I said, I feel that Jaedong is almost there but not quite. I feel Bisu had that status. I was fully aware and even said to myself "this might upset Jaedong fans". But I'm not going to change my article to satisfy other peoples opinions.


Obviously, its retarded for you to even think that someone wants you to change your article.

That doesn't mean its not in my, or any other reader's, right to ensure that our comments try and strip away the articles "opinion-facts" into just being an opinion. You can say its your opinion all you want, but it doesn't read that way and you know it...


Do you want me to apologize or something? Any editorial is filled with opinion mixed with facts. If you can't distinguish the opinions I'm sorry. It would be "retarded" to even attempt to "prove" Jaedong isn't a "hero."

It is the readers responsibility to distinguish between what is subjective and objective in the
context of the article.


Yea, and then post the distinctions here.

(I just said that)


Well, then you're going to be very disappointed as I refuse to argue my subjective definition of a relative term concerning korean teenagers.

You literally want me to apologize for not including Jaedong in a subjective echelon of progamers and then post objective distinctions as to why Jaedong does not have subjective and unquantifiable characteristics that some other players do?



No, you are misreading what I said. In a conversation it would read:

You - "It is the readers responsibility to distinguish between what is subjective and objective in the context of the article."
Me - "Yes and then they can post the distinctions here"

I wasn't answering your dumb sarcastic question.

I'm saying that given the context of the article and the way it was written. It is expected to draw this kind of discussion. You don't have to prove anything, but I can certainly say why I think you are wrong.
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 11 2009 00:15 GMT
#156
I'm sorry for misunderstanding your statement and I have nothing wrong with you discussing anything/disagreeing with me.

So my apologies.
RIP Aaliyah
kOre
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Canada3642 Posts
October 11 2009 00:18 GMT
#157
Very well written article, loved to read it all
http://www.starcraftmecca.net - Founder
GeneralStan
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States4789 Posts
October 11 2009 00:18 GMT
#158
I would criticize your opinion, in fact. If you can think of no reason to hold an opinion, it wouldn't seem to be an opinion worth holding. As far as I know, I haven't heard a good reason why Jaedong isn't a hero when others are

I'm not really sure what I want from you, as obviously asking you to change either your opinion or the article would be absurd.

I guess it just strikes me deep to think of Jaedong's defining moments and have somebody not see them as heroic, when it is as plain as day to me that they fit any definition you could possibly give to the word
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
barbahaba0
Profile Joined January 2009
Israel226 Posts
October 11 2009 00:28 GMT
#159
it was a very nice write up one of the best i've read here
but can't seem to agree on the notion of jaedong not being a hero
hell the article was so well written i was almost convinced than remembered the series between fantasy and jaedong coming from 2-0 to 3-2.... i'm sorry but i cant agree to what u wrote
not here to argue just saying whats on my mind and thanking u for a great write up
game over dude .... game over!!!!
theobsessed1
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States576 Posts
October 11 2009 00:40 GMT
#160
Why isn't this on the front page? O_o

Very nice writeup imo~
정명훈 화이팅!~
dmfg
Profile Joined May 2008
United Kingdom591 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 01:16:46
October 11 2009 01:15 GMT
#161
On October 11 2009 09:13 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I could go right on and call Leta a hero for whatever subjective reasons might satisfy me and it would be pointless to argue because it's an opinion based on a relative/subjective term. It's like arguing over the definition of respect when really you're just throwing your differing perspectives at eachother with no result but mutual frustration.


I'd like to start off by saying that this was a really good article - however, I (and I suspect many others) wasn't really able to enjoy it properly simply because I feel aggrieved at the stance you've taken with Jaedong.

I mean topics such as the heroes of Broodwar or the faces of pro-gaming aren't abstract concepts earned with statistics, nor empty titles bestowed by agencies like KeSPA, nor even a reward for revolutionising a metagame. They're earned by players by winning over the hearts of their fans (or leaving their marks in anti-fans) - which might well be achieved by one of the mentioned means, of course.

Without doing any detailed research, I'm gonna assert that there is a significant number of people who do look up to Jaedong as a hero of Broodwar, and who think of his face when asked "who embodies Starcraft?", and that the significant amount of backlach to a very good article suggests this is probably valid.

So in that sense, I don't understand why you've gone to such lengths to exclude Jaedong. I don't know if it's because the fanbase belief in him just isn't as strong as I think he is, or if you have simply decided to write on your own opinions instead of the common consensus. I guess that doesn't really matter - I just think it's a shame that some of us haven't been able to enjoy your article to its fullest because of such a small thing (and surely one you must have anticipated when writing it!).
MuR)Ernu
Profile Joined September 2008
Finland768 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 01:21:42
October 11 2009 01:20 GMT
#162
jaedong bisu and flash collectively form the supamechatribonjwa which is the all 3 races, all 3 of the best players of the world put together. It makes supamechaBonJwA dominate everything

it is covered up because if this gets out....
its purposefully covered by sending all the players in different teams and stuff
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
October 11 2009 01:27 GMT
#163
FlaJaeSu?
Jaedong
ccou
Profile Joined December 2008
United States681 Posts
October 11 2009 02:09 GMT
#164
FlaBiDong

Cmon guys, there are better ways to argue your point than calling DoctorHelvetica retarded or dumb.
Wake up Mr. B!
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 11 2009 02:19 GMT
#165
No one called me retarded. People disagree pretty strongly and that's ok.
RIP Aaliyah
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 02:30:44
October 11 2009 02:28 GMT
#166
Zergbong is a true hero of our age and it's all completely subjective so therefore you just have to deal with it.

The point is, making a big scaling argument that has no purpose other than to get people to read an understand it is to appeal to the sensibility of the community. If every single person started writing 5 page essays on obviously controversial, and sometimes downright silly opinions the entire forum would just be a massive power rank thread.
Remember Violet.
ShaperofDreams
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada2492 Posts
October 11 2009 02:30 GMT
#167
Woot this thread is so sick, I think I'll re-read it later because of the epicness of all my favorite players. I hope this season won't be another Zerg one, even though The Dong is my favourite player.
Bitches don't know about my overlord. FUCK OFF ALDARIS I HAVE ENOUGH PYLONS. My Balls are as smooth as Eggs.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 11 2009 02:30 GMT
#168
On October 11 2009 11:28 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Zergbong is a true hero of our age and it's all completely subjective so therefore you just have to deal with it.


How can you justify saying zergbong is a hero unless you also include Gosl[Flying]. Gosl[Flying] has just as much personality. please prove yourself.
RIP Aaliyah
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 11 2009 02:31 GMT
#169
On October 11 2009 11:28 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Zergbong is a true hero of our age and it's all completely subjective so therefore you just have to deal with it.

The point is, making a big scaling argument that has no purpose other than to get people to read an understand it is to appeal to the sensibility of the community. If every single person started writing 5 page essays on obviously controversial, and sometimes downright silly opinions the entire forum would just be a massive power rank thread.


The problem is people are reading this and then focusing on the fact that I don't consider Jaedong a hero when that is such a small part of the article as a whole. The article is not a big scaling argument that Jaedong isn't a hero.

If he's a hero to you then power to you. He's not a hero to me.
RIP Aaliyah
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 02:39:10
October 11 2009 02:37 GMT
#170
On October 11 2009 11:31 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2009 11:28 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Zergbong is a true hero of our age and it's all completely subjective so therefore you just have to deal with it.

The point is, making a big scaling argument that has no purpose other than to get people to read an understand it is to appeal to the sensibility of the community. If every single person started writing 5 page essays on obviously controversial, and sometimes downright silly opinions the entire forum would just be a massive power rank thread.


The problem is people are reading this and then focusing on the fact that I don't consider Jaedong a hero when that is such a small part of the article as a whole. The article is not a big scaling argument that Jaedong isn't a hero.

If he's a hero to you then power to you. He's not a hero to me.


Yes, so you posted a big ass article that's highly controversial of an opinion that you HAD to know beforehand would be massively disliked. What was the point of the article? Trying to be Only Until Midnight but with a hint of Bisu cherish and Jaedong distaste?

I'm not even sure I get why you separate them. Bisu has more personality? That's not a tangible thing and even if it were you could argue the hell out of it. The entire article is fluff for fluff's sake with controversy for controversy's sake. Your criticism of Jaedong for why he isn't in your little pantheon is that he isn't the right kind of person? The entire thing is ridiculous.

I don't get the point of this. You put it in the broodwar section so you obviously wanted it to be indicative of the pro scene, otherwise a pure opinion piece with no bearing would've been put in Blogs.
Remember Violet.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 02:43:10
October 11 2009 02:42 GMT
#171
On October 11 2009 11:37 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2009 11:31 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 11 2009 11:28 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Zergbong is a true hero of our age and it's all completely subjective so therefore you just have to deal with it.

The point is, making a big scaling argument that has no purpose other than to get people to read an understand it is to appeal to the sensibility of the community. If every single person started writing 5 page essays on obviously controversial, and sometimes downright silly opinions the entire forum would just be a massive power rank thread.


The problem is people are reading this and then focusing on the fact that I don't consider Jaedong a hero when that is such a small part of the article as a whole. The article is not a big scaling argument that Jaedong isn't a hero.

If he's a hero to you then power to you. He's not a hero to me.


Yes, so you posted a big ass article that's highly controversial of an opinion that you HAD to know beforehand would be massively disliked. What was the point of the article? Trying to be Only Until Midnight but with a hint of Bisu cherish and Jaedong distaste?

I'm not even sure I get why you separate them. Bisu has more personality? That's not a tangible thing and even if it were you could argue the hell out of it. The entire article is fluff for fluff's sake with controversy for controversy's sake. Your criticism of Jaedong for why he isn't in your little pantheon is that he isn't the right kind of person? The entire thing is ridiculous.

I don't get the point of this. You put it in the broodwar section so you obviously wanted it to be indicative of the pro scene, otherwise a pure opinion piece with no bearing would've been put in Blogs.


I'm sorry you don't like my article.

I have no distaste for Jaedong and I hate Bisu more than any other progamer. I want him to retire now and never ever be seen again.
RIP Aaliyah
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 02:51:39
October 11 2009 02:46 GMT
#172
Thanks for responding to my criticisms, you've completely answered all of my questions on the purpose and intent of this article.

I don't care if you don't think Jaedong's a hero or whatever, I care about you posting some big fancy article in the broodwar section like it was the next TLFE when the whole thing is a fluff piece about Bonjwas and how Bisu > Jaedong, with some stuff about...Tasteless at the end? It's entitled "Welcome to the S-Class" so you think you're going to hear all about the top players of today, and the newcomers who are edging in on the Big 3, but then we get a long winded diatribe about how great Boxer/nada/oov were, some Bisu flattery, a small putdown on Jaedong, some stuff about Fantasy and then Tasteless.

The picture in the OP has Effort in it but he barely gets recognized, the title is misleading because you don't even begin to talk about the likes of Calm who seems like the perfect character for the title. Flash gets little blurbs in other people's articles, etc etc. It's disjointed praise fluff.
Remember Violet.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 11 2009 02:49 GMT
#173
On October 11 2009 11:46 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Thanks for responding to my criticisms, you've completely answered all of my questions on the purpose and intent of this article.


I've described the purpose and intent of this article before and in two disclaimers. I don't feel like regurgitating points I've already made at every critic.

If it's not to your satisfaction I'm sorry I can't justify my writing to your standards. read other articles.
RIP Aaliyah
Probe.
Profile Joined May 2009
United States877 Posts
October 11 2009 03:05 GMT
#174
TwoToneTerran, you need to find a GPS so you can navigate your head out of jaedongs ass. The article was opinionated and a good read. Yes there wasn't much purpose to it but so what? Why does it concern you so bad about what he wrote or didn't write about jaedong? Just let it go man.
meow
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 11 2009 03:10 GMT
#175
On October 11 2009 12:05 Probe. wrote:
TwoToneTerran, you need to find a GPS so you can navigate your head out of jaedongs ass. The article was opinionated and a good read. Yes there wasn't much purpose to it but so what? Why does it concern you so bad about what he wrote or didn't write about jaedong? Just let it go man.


Please rerain from insulting other members in my thread.
RIP Aaliyah
Yamoth
Profile Joined February 2009
United States315 Posts
October 11 2009 03:14 GMT
#176
Wow, the Jaedong fanboys really come out in trove and tear you to shred over this article. I think your biggest problem is the term you use. I don't think the term charisma was the right choice. I think the word you are trying to use here is "impact" or "revolutionary (yea, I went there)". If I read this correctly, the biggest point you are trying to make is that while you like Jaedong can't really be considered a hero not so much as he doesn't have the charisma, the skill, or mechanic. The reason you would pick Bisu over Jaedong was because Jaedong didn't bring the zerg out of the dark age like what Bisu did. Jaedong can't be considered a hero because in his time zerg don't need saving nor did he reign over his throne as the undisputed absolute best of this time. I mean if you mention any of the so called hero named by Helvetica, most sc fans can immediately recall exactly what is it that make them famous. I can't for the life of me recall any game played by Jaedong that would mark a major turning point in starcraft.

So until he can without a shadow of a doubt be consider a favorite in a BoX again the likes of Biso and Flash or drastically change the meta game of starcraft. He can't be considered a "Hero" by the Doc standard.
Jonvvv
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Norway1530 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 06:22:08
October 11 2009 03:19 GMT
#177


Btw, great article!
Liquipedia
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 03:51:28
October 11 2009 03:46 GMT
#178
On October 11 2009 12:05 Probe. wrote:
TwoToneTerran, you need to find a GPS so you can navigate your head out of jaedongs ass. The article was opinionated and a good read. Yes there wasn't much purpose to it but so what? Why does it concern you so bad about what he wrote or didn't write about jaedong? Just let it go man.


I don't give one damn about what he thinks about Jaedong. I found the article misleading via the title, cliche via the content, disjointed via the topics, his criteria skewed via his comparisons, and that it'd be better found in Blogs instead of the Broodwar section.

Get your head out of his ass if you don't think he's worthy of critique.

On October 11 2009 12:14 Yamoth wrote:
Wow, the Jaedong fanboys really come out in trove and tear you to shred over this article. I think your biggest problem is the term you use. I don't think the term charisma was the right choice. I think the word you are trying to use here is "impact" or "revolutionary (yea, I went there)". If I read this correctly, the biggest point you are trying to make is that while you like Jaedong can't really be considered a hero not so much as he doesn't have the charisma, the skill, or mechanic. The reason you would pick Bisu over Jaedong was because Jaedong didn't bring the zerg out of the dark age like what Bisu did. Jaedong can't be considered a hero because in his time zerg don't need saving nor did he reign over his throne as the undisputed absolute best of this time. I mean if you mention any of the so called hero named by Helvetica, most sc fans can immediately recall exactly what is it that make them famous. I can't for the life of me recall any game played by Jaedong that would mark a major turning point in starcraft.

So until he can without a shadow of a doubt be consider a favorite in a BoX again the likes of Biso and Flash or drastically change the meta game of starcraft. He can't be considered a "Hero" by the Doc standard.


If this were the case, Flash would be a Hero for revolutionizing TvP, bringing Terrans out of their worst position in history (He was the single shining beacon of terran during Taek Bang), etc etc. He specifically called his criteria an 'it' factor. I don't disagree, but I don't think it's article worthy.
Remember Violet.
Armathai
Profile Joined October 2007
1023 Posts
October 11 2009 03:47 GMT
#179
DoctorHelvetica, your article was a great read and sparked some interesting and opionated arguments which were a fun read as well.
My favorite paragraph from the comments was definitely:
On October 11 2009 04:26 QibingZero wrote:
Fantasy remains extremely overhyped, largely due to his status as SKT's terran and Boxer/oov successor. He's not the best terran in the world - Flash is. I don't even think that's an argument. Also, I don't really see fantasy as cocky. I see him as a young player influenced heavily by his teachers (and who wouldn't be considering who they are) who is incredibly unreliable when games don't go as planned.

Not only do I agree with Qibing here, but I would seriously say that even Leta has shown better overall performance and more evolving gameplay (think tvz) than Fantasy.


Looking for ArcticCerebrate formerly from @USEast
deL
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Australia5540 Posts
October 11 2009 03:52 GMT
#180
Really great article enjoyed every word of it and I can relate with your story at the end, as I am sure many can.
Gaming videos for fun ~ http://www.youtube.com/user/WijLopenLos
ProbeSaturation
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada292 Posts
October 11 2009 03:57 GMT
#181
Bisu is definitely a Broodwar hero.
He saved protoss during their darkest days
And during the recent age of swarm, where all the protoss fell and burned
He stood his ground and instilled a glimmer of hope for his race

Jaedong...meh?
MuffinDude
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States3837 Posts
October 11 2009 04:06 GMT
#182
I honestly think that there are only 4 major players to look out for since like 2007, and they are bisu, flash, jaedong, and stork. They all held the #1 kespa spot for a while and one of the four is usually playing really well at anytime. So if you can call 2007 and back the age of bonjwa/heroes, I think you can call 2007 and onward the age of the four kings.
Zerg can be so abusive sometimes | third member of the "loli is not a crime club" PM konadora to join!
deL
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Australia5540 Posts
October 11 2009 04:09 GMT
#183
On October 11 2009 12:46 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2009 12:05 Probe. wrote:
TwoToneTerran, you need to find a GPS so you can navigate your head out of jaedongs ass. The article was opinionated and a good read. Yes there wasn't much purpose to it but so what? Why does it concern you so bad about what he wrote or didn't write about jaedong? Just let it go man.


I don't give one damn about what he thinks about Jaedong. I found the article misleading via the title, cliche via the content, disjointed via the topics, his criteria skewed via his comparisons, and that it'd be better found in Blogs instead of the Broodwar section.

Get your head out of his ass if you don't think he's worthy of critique.


Uh oh guys get the banstick out the title was a bit misleading and TTT got his hopes up. I think his points about JaeDong are reasonable enough from his criteria and I'd tend to agree with him so far as the three big names nowadays have a different aura compared to the BoxeRs and YellOws of old. You can make similar observations in many sports too, so why is it not valid - we are not here to criticise writing style in a non-constructive manner or relegate an article to blogs just because we don't agree with the format or how something was said.
Gaming videos for fun ~ http://www.youtube.com/user/WijLopenLos
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
October 11 2009 04:11 GMT
#184
I detailed all of those points in the previous post and even if the tone was not to his liking, they were all critically constructive.
Remember Violet.
red.venom
Profile Joined October 2002
United States4651 Posts
October 11 2009 04:20 GMT
#185
Very nice article.

I'll just throw this out there: The era from 00-05 or so had FAR fewer games played, in the last couple years its come to the point where you don't have to wait at all to see the top players do their thing.

I used to seriously ANTICIPATE and look up the new weekly OSL match ups and later MSL when it was having a particularly exciting season. Then watch them either live at 1-5am depending on time of year or download them immediately on saturday morning while I made breakfast. It didn't really always matter what players were up to bat, I remember this Zerg player named MAX from oh, probably the 04-era. I mean he was around for a while but that was when he was in Starleague I think. He wasn't a particularly notable player in the long run but if you watched him come through Challenge league and then hit OSL he was PRETTY hot. He ran through several notables and then i believe had to play Boxer or Nada on this map called Alchemist. It was truly one of the worst maps ever but hella random and fun to watch.. Anyway he won and then I believe still didnt manage to get out of his group or something but shit like that happened ALL the time. The games were VERY exciting. I can't even explain why exactly but you had only a few platforms at a time to watch so it really made the games notable, I think. Imagine if Jaedong just played once every week or two instead of 3 times a week. His play would be much more mystical rather than "oh he does this every time vs Terran."

I like to watch SC still but Im also at times an extremely hardcore player, its way more boring now to me so I can't even imagine what its like for the casual watcher who doesn't even play the game. As the pro scene expanded it felt awesome to be able to watch SC any night of the week and always have a lot of new games but when the old players moved on and KESPA came through homogenizing the map picking process and all their other political stuff, it really just sucked the life out of it and then the glut of games happened. It just needs to go back to being 1-2 singles leagues and a team league. 3 nights a week.
Broom
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
October 11 2009 12:40 GMT
#186
I'm surprised you listed CaSy as a so-called "hero". If I remember correctly, he was quite the one-hit wonder, winning his OSL simply because it was mostly Zerg infested. He was simply a completely abyssal TvP player, a good TvT player, and an S-Class TvZ player known for his astonishing ability to micro marines...which is, as you mentioned, Boxer had already done three hundred times over. So, he hardly brought anything new to the table, had virtually no staying power, and to be honest, faded away the moment he won his OSL.


I would like to see a reply to this post. How is Casy a hero? He was never a dominant player during a longer period of time and he didn't revolutionize the game in any way.
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 18 2009 05:51 GMT
#187
This has really discouraged me from writing in the future. I hope that my possible upcoming appreciative articles of nal.rA and UpMagiC don't turn into DURRRR BISU IS BETTER HOW CAN YOU SAY nal.rA is the best?

Thanks to those who were constructive and respectful with their criticism

RIP Aaliyah
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
October 18 2009 06:08 GMT
#188
Well, you can't say most of the reactions were unexpected. I like to read your articles. They get better.
I doubt anyone will be anything but kind for your two future pieces.
Jaedong
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-18 06:14:48
October 18 2009 06:11 GMT
#189
I'd wager Jaedong has brought more people to zerg, and influenced iccup level play more than any player in the world. That alone makes him a SC "hero" for thousands of people around the world. That's a standard I can agree with and is sufficient to say he IS a hero, even by your own standards.

It's obvious you won't change your article (no reason you should really), but I feel a lot of people are justified in not only their disagreement but counter-arguments.

Edit: Oh, and if you're writing an article about Upmagic i'd love to read it. Just be sure to say NOTHING but positive things ok?
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 18 2009 06:19 GMT
#190
I just really feel that everyone missed the point of the article and I am annoyed that everyone focused on Jaedongs role which was a really minute part of it.

I didn't realize how die-hard the jaedong fans were.
RIP Aaliyah
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
October 18 2009 06:28 GMT
#191
On October 18 2009 15:19 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I just really feel that everyone missed the point of the article and I am annoyed that everyone focused on Jaedongs role which was a really minute part of it.

I didn't realize how die-hard the jaedong fans were.

You don't get that type die-hard fans if you're not a hero.
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 18 2009 06:45 GMT
#192
On October 18 2009 15:28 Holgerius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2009 15:19 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I just really feel that everyone missed the point of the article and I am annoyed that everyone focused on Jaedongs role which was a really minute part of it.

I didn't realize how die-hard the jaedong fans were.

You don't get that type die-hard fans if you're not a hero.


I'm a die hard UpMagiC fan and he's nowhere near that status.
RIP Aaliyah
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
October 18 2009 06:50 GMT
#193
Ridiculously well-done post.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9103 Posts
October 18 2009 06:56 GMT
#194
I was really surprised to see Casy listed with the rest of the "heroes." Admittedly I am not nearly as hard core into the pro scene as much of TL is but I didn't realize he was ever that dominant and hailed as such a pimp.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 18 2009 06:58 GMT
#195
I'm not gonna lie, Casy isn't really a hero I just wanted to call attention to my favorite Plexa blog. Sigh, I'll remove him.
RIP Aaliyah
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
October 18 2009 07:03 GMT
#196
I wish UpMagic would take it to the next level. His build against Luxury really felt like old school starcraft.
domane
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada1606 Posts
October 18 2009 07:08 GMT
#197
On October 18 2009 15:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I'm not gonna lie, Casy isn't really a hero I just wanted to call attention to my favorite Plexa blog. Sigh, I'll remove him.
The following message isn't meant to insult you:

Yeah, I think we all knew that was personal bias. Perfectly understandable.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 18 2009 07:10 GMT
#198
On October 18 2009 16:08 domane wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2009 15:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I'm not gonna lie, Casy isn't really a hero I just wanted to call attention to my favorite Plexa blog. Sigh, I'll remove him.
The following message isn't meant to insult you:

Yeah, I think we all knew that was personal bias. Perfectly understandable.


Yep.
RIP Aaliyah
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
October 18 2009 07:22 GMT
#199
Oh damn, nice article DrH

love reads like these
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
October 18 2009 07:27 GMT
#200
On October 18 2009 15:19 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I just really feel that everyone missed the point of the article and I am annoyed that everyone focused on Jaedongs role which was a really minute part of it.

I didn't realize how die-hard the jaedong fans were.


You essentially listed a bunch of "Greats" of starcraft and said Jaedong didn't qualify. It's hard to see how that wouldn't bring backlash.
Remember Violet.
cascades
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Singapore6122 Posts
October 18 2009 07:28 GMT
#201
I am going to mention upmagic too. If there is one player I want to succeed, it is him.
HS: cascades#1595 || LoL: stoppin
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 18 2009 07:36 GMT
#202
On October 18 2009 16:27 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2009 15:19 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I just really feel that everyone missed the point of the article and I am annoyed that everyone focused on Jaedongs role which was a really minute part of it.

I didn't realize how die-hard the jaedong fans were.


You essentially listed a bunch of "Greats" of starcraft and said Jaedong didn't qualify. It's hard to see how that wouldn't bring backlash.


I said he was great, the closest thing to a bonjwa we will ever have again, and one of my favorite all time players.
RIP Aaliyah
vRoOk
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States1024 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-18 07:38:52
October 18 2009 07:38 GMT
#203
Give DoctorH a break guys..


It was a great article.. that i've read at least 5 times lol
Breaking Bad
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 18 2009 07:41 GMT
#204
I will say it again

I THINK JAEDONG IS THE BEST PLAYER RIGHT NOW, CLOSE TO BONJWA STATUS, AND INCREDIBLY FUN TO WATCH

Also I am not a Bisu fanboy, I am probably the biggest Bisu anti-fan on TL, i hate him i hate him i hate him

he is gorgeous though
RIP Aaliyah
QibingZero
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
2611 Posts
October 18 2009 07:48 GMT
#205
Not even a shameless self-bump was going to de-derail your thread, you know...
Oh, my eSports
vRoOk
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States1024 Posts
October 18 2009 07:48 GMT
#206
On October 18 2009 16:41 DoctorHelvetica wrote:


Also I am not a Bisu fanboy, I am probably the biggest Bisu anti-fan on TL, i hate him i hate him i hate him

he is gorgeous though


isn't he?! Hyuk is pretty baller looking as well haha
Breaking Bad
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 18 2009 07:52 GMT
#207
On October 18 2009 16:48 QibingZero wrote:
Not even a shameless self-bump was going to de-derail your thread, you know...


Why should I feel shame for bumping my own article. It wasn't featured or spotlighted like my other ones so I'll probably bump it regularly, or rewrite it as a TLFE (like my sAviOr piece)
RIP Aaliyah
Simple
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States801 Posts
October 18 2009 08:04 GMT
#208
S-class is such a cool term.

awaiting the next revolution
siv00
Profile Joined September 2009
261 Posts
October 18 2009 08:10 GMT
#209
Jaedong's play in the finals of MSL/OSL was disappointing and he has lost his lethal countenance.

He's going to underperform, slump, drop out of both leagues and cease to be relevant.

You should fix the typographical errors with players' names as it makes the article somewhat distracting to read. (i.e.: Nal_rA's name has an underscore, not a period)
FoBuLouS
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States570 Posts
October 18 2009 08:21 GMT
#210
amazing.
domane
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada1606 Posts
October 18 2009 09:00 GMT
#211
How about this?

Bonjwa = high amount of success + high popularity + marketable

Other than success:

Boxer had exciting, back to back cheese + has a good appearance (could be called handsome)
Yellow had a special relationship with Boxer + was seen as cool (that dyed hair/KTF/popular phase)
Nada started out younger than other pros at his time (young genius impression)
Savior has good looks + gives off that really nice guy impression
Bisu has good looks + could be seen as greatest of 6 dragons + fangirls
oov - it is mentioned in the OP, that some disliked him for beating Boxer + less micro. But his status is acknowledged now (likewise, people who do not "endorse" Jaedong now, might acknowledge his status as a bonjwa in a few years)

I'm not sure about Yellow and oov, but the rest are featured in the media more often than other pro gamers and they know how to present themselves well to the public.

I think if the media focused more heavily on Jaedong's scary-level concentration, he would develop more nicknames and familiarity with the public. That way, Jaedong could be seen as a great and memorable player sooner.
Magic84
Profile Joined October 2008
Russian Federation1381 Posts
October 18 2009 09:18 GMT
#212
Jaedong is that "hero" of our days.

Bisu and Flash are great too. This era is filled with a lot of crazy skilled players, that detracts from the dominance of top players.
LibertyTerran
Profile Joined July 2004
Vietnam711 Posts
October 18 2009 09:40 GMT
#213
I glanced through the article and lost interest after the first couple of paragraphs. What is that the author wanted to say? Players belong to S-class club ("Welcome to the S-class" says the title) or Starcraft heroes (first paragraph)? IMHO, they are two different things and if the authors wanna concentrate on heroes, rivalries and the like, s/he should change the title to something else, rather than the S-class one because it is really confusing.


if it aint broke, dont fix it
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 18 2009 09:52 GMT
#214
There is no focus to the article and that was intentional. Looking for a thesis, argument, or "point" will leave you disappointed. It's just a glance at 3 eras of broodwar through my eyes.

Hence my apprehension to even argue about it.
RIP Aaliyah
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
October 18 2009 10:03 GMT
#215
It's difficult to respond to such an subjective topic, and it should be no surprise that the thread ended up this way really.

It's a spectator sport, and we all get different things from it.

Nada was the scariest thing I ever saw. Nal Ra was the single greatest oddity that has graced the scene. Iloveoov was the most inexplicable player I've witnessed. July gave me more adrenaline rush than any other player so far. Savior in his prime really did look like he had everyone in the palm of his hand.

Those are some of the players that left strong impressions on me. That doesn't mean that others should feel the same way. Those are just my impressions. I can't prove that Nada was "scarier" than Iloveoov because it's just the way I perceive the two players.

For example. Reach, who probably gave more emotional rollercoasters to protoss-followers than any other gamer, never really had the same impact on me. All I saw was an exceptionally gifted protoss gamer with near-borderline retarded decison making skills. Although I didn't miss his nuclear blast-like zealot bombing and fangirl orgasm-inducing psionic storms, his skills didn't translate into strong emotions of any kind for me. It's my loss, because he is such a good gamer to get emotionally attached to.

You can't force people into liking a certain player like Boxer, no matter how politically correct it seems, because it's all subjective. Who are we to judge the status on the plethora of gamers that have graced and left the scene? Everyone has a different criteria for the way they feel about each gamer, and creating a discussion based upon this issue will invariably result in a very emotionally charged arguments on why so-and-so is not as memorable or significant as things may seem.

Demanding Jaedong to win people over by doing something he is not known for is such a childish ploy. If Jaedong hasn't won you over by now, it probably means that it just isn't meant to be. He already has fair share of memorable games such as his Blue Storm match versus Bisu, Loki 2 and Rush Hour matches against Flash, and Sin Chupung Ryeong matches against Fantasy and Iris. He has defied the odds by TWICE reaching the finals when he was the lone representative of his race in the final eight (something no other player since July in Shinhan 2005 OSL if I remember right). Jaedong has been doing his thing for years now, and it's up to you to apprecaite it or not. Just don't blame it on Jaedong if you can't appreciate him fully.
TL+ Member
LibertyTerran
Profile Joined July 2004
Vietnam711 Posts
October 18 2009 10:05 GMT
#216
On October 18 2009 18:52 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
It's just a glance at 3 eras of broodwar through my eyes.

Right there. That could have made a better title. I certainly don't look for anything like a thesis or points form here but if you can't put a title properly for your huge long post, it won't be a good post most definitely.
if it aint broke, dont fix it
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
October 18 2009 10:05 GMT
#217
On October 18 2009 16:48 QibingZero wrote:
Not even a shameless self-bump was going to de-derail your thread, you know...


^

Out of curiosity what was the de-railing point in your thread? Did you expect 20 pages of:

"Best article ever, awesome opinions."

It is an opinion piece clearly, most of the criticism was not that your opinions were wrong, but that your stance was not well defended. That is how you critique an opinion piece. To be honest I don't understand why this thread is getting so much attention and I also do not understand why there are those who are drawing up sympathy for you, particularly with the latest plexa write-up.
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
Musoeun
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States4324 Posts
October 18 2009 10:13 GMT
#218
On October 18 2009 17:10 siv00 wrote:
Jaedong's play in the finals of MSL/OSL was disappointing and he has lost his lethal countenance.

He's going to underperform, slump, drop out of both leagues and cease to be relevant.


This feels like troll-bait, but on the off-chance you're serious, I'll give a quick reply:

Jaedong was not in the MSL finals. In the semi-finals he was beaten by Calm - either by fluke or by masterful display of smart ZvZ or both. In the OSL finals he destroyed Yarnc, after destroying fantasy in the semifinals. Jaedong's only poor performance "recently" was the PL finals where he went 0-3 against 1) fantasy (closest thing he has to a direct rival atm), 2) his own inexplicable 12-hatch and 3) a "strategic play" from the SKT think-tank that, to quote fantasy, "anyone could have executed". In PL this year, he's only had a chance to play a single game (which he won). In short, what are you talking about?

I'll grant that there are now Zergs (Calm, EffOrt) playing much closer to Jaedong's level than at any time previously, but smart money says that - like the Maestro before him - Jaedong's going to have to be knocked off his pedestal and sat on a couple times before he "slumps" for more than, say, two weeks.

I don't even like Jaedong, but he is that good. If he doesn't make at least the Ro8 in both leagues, I will be highly, amazingly, and in all other ways, surprised.
Don't Shoot the Penguins. | Dance, 성은, dance! | Killer FanKlub | Action sucks. | Storm Terran hwaiting.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-18 10:18:12
October 18 2009 10:15 GMT
#219
On October 18 2009 19:05 keV. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2009 16:48 QibingZero wrote:
Not even a shameless self-bump was going to de-derail your thread, you know...


^

Out of curiosity what was the de-railing point in your thread? Did you expect 20 pages of:

"Best article ever, awesome opinions."

It is an opinion piece clearly, most of the criticism was not that your opinions were wrong, but that your stance was not well defended. That is how you critique an opinion piece. To be honest I don't understand why this thread is getting so much attention and I also do not understand why there are those who are drawing up sympathy for you, particularly with the latest plexa write-up.


I was expecting people to comment on memories of the older players, discuss SC2 and what will happen to BW when it comes out, and talk about the growth/changes in the foreign scene.

It got attention, I like to think, because the OP had a lot of effort put into it and was well-written. Since it's not an argument I don't have to defend my stance. I wouldn't have to defend why I like The Doors and don't like Pink Floyd since there is no way to objectify that other than my own relative definition of what "good" music is.
RIP Aaliyah
keV.
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3214 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-18 10:35:41
October 18 2009 10:34 GMT
#220

I was expecting people to comment on memories of the older players, discuss SC2 and what will happen to BW when it comes out, and talk about the growth/changes in the foreign scene.


BORING. We only do that here once every other day...


So you weren't expecting critique? Maybe its just me who feels the "derailing" of your thread was massively exaggerated, which is disconcerting.
"brevity is the soul of wit" - William Shakesman
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 18 2009 10:44 GMT
#221
On October 18 2009 19:34 keV. wrote:
Show nested quote +

I was expecting people to comment on memories of the older players, discuss SC2 and what will happen to BW when it comes out, and talk about the growth/changes in the foreign scene.


BORING. We only do that here once every other day...


So you weren't expecting critique? Maybe its just me who feels the "derailing" of your thread was massively exaggerated, which is disconcerting.


Well I was disappointed the entire conversation went toward the Bisu/Jaedong thing which I didn't feel was a large part of the article. Aside from the "good article" posts by the people with like 8 total post account I felt like no one really liked this article.

I'm not ashamed of it like i am of "On Fire" but I'm not going to lie; i take criticism really badly. I work on it though and if I'm going to progress as a writer it needs to be done.
RIP Aaliyah
Creationism
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
China505 Posts
October 18 2009 11:01 GMT
#222
The basis for ranking someone for the S class is dependent on so many factors that it almost has to be subjective to a person's views. Not only do you have to put into consideration the skill/race status, map balance, and meta game, but pro-league teams status and popularity also jumps in the picture.

Jaedong does well; he is an amazing player. No one can deny that. But in comparison to the past "legends", would ANY pro team ever have thought of giving up Oov, Savior, Nada through contract negotiation. It could very well be the status of the management playing an effect, but remember that no other team had a bid on Jaedong. So how much do you attribute it to management, and how much do attribute to the fact that teams see so many talents that they do not feel the need to invest in a monster like Jaedong. (Boxer doesn't count, he started his own team)

I think the easiest way to base evaluations on is Starleagues. When you add in charisma, talent, and other subjective variables, and discuss the "stardom" of the player, there is sometimes no way to reach agreement. In that light, Jaedong having as many SL's (not including GOM, jus cuz its not sanctioned and some players dont participate, no other reason) as Bisu, would probably put him right next to him. I dont see any reason not to.
The hoi polloi is the plague upon the world.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 18 2009 11:08 GMT
#223
Not saying Bisu > Jaedong

Not saying he isn't in the S-Class

Jaedong is the best player since sAviOr

He is not a hero to me. I do not see him as the face of BroodWar. If you do I will not contest that. He is a hero to many. Not to me. That is all. That is what the article means. Trying to argue against that is idiotic, you cannot make me like Jaedong the same way I like sAviOr.
RIP Aaliyah
siv00
Profile Joined September 2009
261 Posts
October 18 2009 11:13 GMT
#224
On October 18 2009 19:13 Musoeun wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2009 17:10 siv00 wrote:
Jaedong's play in the finals of MSL/OSL was disappointing and he has lost his lethal countenance.

He's going to underperform, slump, drop out of both leagues and cease to be relevant.


This feels like troll-bait, but on the off-chance you're serious, I'll give a quick reply:

Jaedong was not in the MSL finals. In the semi-finals he was beaten by Calm - either by fluke or by masterful display of smart ZvZ or both. In the OSL finals he destroyed Yarnc, after destroying fantasy in the semifinals. Jaedong's only poor performance "recently" was the PL finals where he went 0-3 against 1) fantasy (closest thing he has to a direct rival atm), 2) his own inexplicable 12-hatch and 3) a "strategic play" from the SKT think-tank that, to quote fantasy, "anyone could have executed". In PL this year, he's only had a chance to play a single game (which he won). In short, what are you talking about?

I'll grant that there are now Zergs (Calm, EffOrt) playing much closer to Jaedong's level than at any time previously, but smart money says that - like the Maestro before him - Jaedong's going to have to be knocked off his pedestal and sat on a couple times before he "slumps" for more than, say, two weeks.

I don't even like Jaedong, but he is that good. If he doesn't make at least the Ro8 in both leagues, I will be highly, amazingly, and in all other ways, surprised.


Semantics, and it's possible to be disappointed in his play even when he wins as was the case with his set against fantasy. It was much more a case of fantasy choking than of Jaedong playing amazingly.

Also it's not that hard to make the RO8 in the OSL if you're being seeded into the RO16. I do not expect him to make the finals again, at any rate. Although it seems like Jaedong doesn't need his A-game to beat someone like Kal, I wouldn't favor him in a BoX against any S-class player anymore.
Magic84
Profile Joined October 2008
Russian Federation1381 Posts
October 18 2009 11:15 GMT
#225
I will talk for myself, i felt strong inappreciation of Jaedongs skill, achievements and position in all time greats legacy, fueled by strong anti-JD comments, like he isn't a favorite over couple of people, like fantasy, and is just nothing special with no "IT". He's easily the most incredible gamer of our era and a true hero with a lot of "IT", that you could strongly feel at his peaks, like at the end of Winners league when he was a god rivalling peaks of bonjwas, nobody else mattered.

I do understand people(fans) who admire JD skill, but like Bisu better, and, consciously or not, want to bring down JD's importance and achievements, i felt this myself when Bisu was dominating and JD was losing a lot. But this suits comments, regular threads better, not huge articles like this with a lot of time and effort put in. This feeling kind of ruined everything for me, since i'm such a fan of JD and he's the greatest sc player of all time for me, instead of relaxing and enjoying the article i feel, like i want to argue with some points.
siv00
Profile Joined September 2009
261 Posts
October 18 2009 11:17 GMT
#226
On October 18 2009 19:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2009 19:34 keV. wrote:

I was expecting people to comment on memories of the older players, discuss SC2 and what will happen to BW when it comes out, and talk about the growth/changes in the foreign scene.


BORING. We only do that here once every other day...


So you weren't expecting critique? Maybe its just me who feels the "derailing" of your thread was massively exaggerated, which is disconcerting.


Well I was disappointed the entire conversation went toward the Bisu/Jaedong thing which I didn't feel was a large part of the article. Aside from the "good article" posts by the people with like 8 total post account I felt like no one really liked this article.

I'm not ashamed of it like i am of "On Fire" but I'm not going to lie; i take criticism really badly. I work on it though and if I'm going to progress as a writer it needs to be done.


Why are you ashamed of On Fire?
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
October 18 2009 11:18 GMT
#227
On October 18 2009 20:13 siv00 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2009 19:13 Musoeun wrote:
On October 18 2009 17:10 siv00 wrote:
Jaedong's play in the finals of MSL/OSL was disappointing and he has lost his lethal countenance.

He's going to underperform, slump, drop out of both leagues and cease to be relevant.


This feels like troll-bait, but on the off-chance you're serious, I'll give a quick reply:

Jaedong was not in the MSL finals. In the semi-finals he was beaten by Calm - either by fluke or by masterful display of smart ZvZ or both. In the OSL finals he destroyed Yarnc, after destroying fantasy in the semifinals. Jaedong's only poor performance "recently" was the PL finals where he went 0-3 against 1) fantasy (closest thing he has to a direct rival atm), 2) his own inexplicable 12-hatch and 3) a "strategic play" from the SKT think-tank that, to quote fantasy, "anyone could have executed". In PL this year, he's only had a chance to play a single game (which he won). In short, what are you talking about?

I'll grant that there are now Zergs (Calm, EffOrt) playing much closer to Jaedong's level than at any time previously, but smart money says that - like the Maestro before him - Jaedong's going to have to be knocked off his pedestal and sat on a couple times before he "slumps" for more than, say, two weeks.

I don't even like Jaedong, but he is that good. If he doesn't make at least the Ro8 in both leagues, I will be highly, amazingly, and in all other ways, surprised.


Semantics, and it's possible to be disappointed in his play even when he wins as was the case with his set against fantasy. It was much more a case of fantasy choking than of Jaedong playing amazingly.

Also it's not that hard to make the RO8 in the OSL if you're being seeded into the RO16. I do not expect him to make the finals again, at any rate. Although it seems like Jaedong doesn't need his A-game to beat someone like Kal, I wouldn't favor him in a BoX against any S-class player anymore.

It appears someone is jealous because Bisu got knocked out by Shine in Ro36.

Jaedong is favourite against anyone right now, except maybe Flash.
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
siv00
Profile Joined September 2009
261 Posts
October 18 2009 11:20 GMT
#228
On October 18 2009 20:18 Holgerius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2009 20:13 siv00 wrote:
On October 18 2009 19:13 Musoeun wrote:
On October 18 2009 17:10 siv00 wrote:
Jaedong's play in the finals of MSL/OSL was disappointing and he has lost his lethal countenance.

He's going to underperform, slump, drop out of both leagues and cease to be relevant.


This feels like troll-bait, but on the off-chance you're serious, I'll give a quick reply:

Jaedong was not in the MSL finals. In the semi-finals he was beaten by Calm - either by fluke or by masterful display of smart ZvZ or both. In the OSL finals he destroyed Yarnc, after destroying fantasy in the semifinals. Jaedong's only poor performance "recently" was the PL finals where he went 0-3 against 1) fantasy (closest thing he has to a direct rival atm), 2) his own inexplicable 12-hatch and 3) a "strategic play" from the SKT think-tank that, to quote fantasy, "anyone could have executed". In PL this year, he's only had a chance to play a single game (which he won). In short, what are you talking about?

I'll grant that there are now Zergs (Calm, EffOrt) playing much closer to Jaedong's level than at any time previously, but smart money says that - like the Maestro before him - Jaedong's going to have to be knocked off his pedestal and sat on a couple times before he "slumps" for more than, say, two weeks.

I don't even like Jaedong, but he is that good. If he doesn't make at least the Ro8 in both leagues, I will be highly, amazingly, and in all other ways, surprised.


Semantics, and it's possible to be disappointed in his play even when he wins as was the case with his set against fantasy. It was much more a case of fantasy choking than of Jaedong playing amazingly.

Also it's not that hard to make the RO8 in the OSL if you're being seeded into the RO16. I do not expect him to make the finals again, at any rate. Although it seems like Jaedong doesn't need his A-game to beat someone like Kal, I wouldn't favor him in a BoX against any S-class player anymore.

It appears someone is jealous because Bisu got knocked out by Shine in Ro36.

Jaedong is favourite against anyone right now, except maybe Flash.


I don't really like Bisu, just his mannerisms. This is going to be Flash's season.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 18 2009 11:33 GMT
#229
On October 18 2009 20:15 Magic84 wrote:
I will talk for myself, i felt strong inappreciation of Jaedongs skill, achievements and position in all time greats legacy, fueled by strong anti-JD comments, like he isn't a favorite over couple of people, like fantasy, and is just nothing special with no "IT". He's easily the most incredible gamer of our era and a true hero with a lot of "IT", that you could strongly feel at his peaks, like at the end of Winners league when he was a god rivalling peaks of bonjwas, nobody else mattered.

I do understand people(fans) who admire JD skill, but like Bisu better, and, consciously or not, want to bring down JD's importance and achievements, i felt this myself when Bisu was dominating and JD was losing a lot. But this suits comments, regular threads better, not huge articles like this with a lot of time and effort put in. This feeling kind of ruined everything for me, since i'm such a fan of JD and he's the greatest sc player of all time for me, instead of relaxing and enjoying the article i feel, like i want to argue with some points.


Saying I think FantaSy could beat him in a series game is not a strong anti-JD comment.
RIP Aaliyah
FantomX
Profile Joined December 2008
Canada247 Posts
October 18 2009 15:08 GMT
#230
Great article! I love how people imediately start ripping it apart because there might not have been enough mention towards their favourite player, or they think they could do it better.

Well maybe you people should try writing an article that clearly took a long time and discussed most of SC's biggest and most remembered playes.

Stop trying to find the little problems in things and just appreciate hard and GOOD work when it comes along.
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
October 18 2009 15:19 GMT
#231
On October 19 2009 00:08 FantomX wrote:
Great article! I love how people imediately start ripping it apart because there might not have been enough mention towards their favourite player, or they think they could do it better.

Well maybe you people should try writing an article that clearly took a long time and discussed most of SC's biggest and most remembered playes.

Stop trying to find the little problems in things and just appreciate hard and GOOD work when it comes along.

So people shouldn't be allowed to criticize something unless they can do it better?
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
Mykill
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada3402 Posts
October 18 2009 15:40 GMT
#232
amazing read.
thats about all that needs to be said.
[~~The Impossible Leads To Invention~~] CJ Entusman #52 The problem with internet quotations is that they are hard to verify -Abraham Lincoln c.1863
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
October 18 2009 16:05 GMT
#233
Just found this article. Great write-up. Maybe due to my bias, I appreciate that you include Bisu so thoroughly in this, even though we all know he is not bonjwa.
Peace~
DarkOptik
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
452 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-18 16:33:28
October 18 2009 16:17 GMT
#234
I think that what you wanted the discussion to be based around is highly contrary to what the topic at hand was about: if you write an article discussing the past greats of Broodwar and have certain views about why they are the your heroes of Starcraft, I don't expect anyone to write about what the future of SC2 is going to be about. We're going to challenge your view of "heroes" and your criteria, assess your consistency in choosing your heroes, and debate about why people are or are not on your list.

That is undoubtedly the essence of what your article was about: why certain people were your heroes. I don't know how you expect people to talk about anything else. It arrived at Bisu vs Jaedong because that was the only point where most people can actually have any dissenting opinions. Who is going to question that Boxer was undoubtedly an SC god? That sAviOr absolutely dominated and built the macro zerg? That iloveoov was the one of the best Terrans of his era and brought about a macrorevolution?

If you wanted to write about the future of SC2, progamers, and the foreign community, you should have written about what the current outlook of SC2 by the community/e-Sports scene was, took a various look at what progamers have pledged their allegiance to Broodwar instead of SC2, and what current progamers think about SC2 having played at BlizzCon and whatnot. There are plenty of interviews and vods about such. You could've discussed upcoming prospects for the foreign community in the e-Sports scene, like talking about Ret (I know he hadn't officially reported that he was going to Korea yet, but that's why I said prospects), or any number of potential top foreigners.

But you based your article on the "heroes" of Broodwar, and you must have on some level wanted people to think about your opinions: otherwise, you wouldn't have written this article at all. So, I don't find it strange that people are talking about your picks at all. I'm sure a lot of people believe it's in fact, subjective, but in many ways some of your picks just aren't consistent, even with your own subjective criteria, as with CaSy, who you included because simply Plexa wrote a brilliant article on it. So unless you clearly stated that all of your reasoning comes from whatever player touches your heart, irregardless of anything else, such as stats, revolutionary strategies, dominance, or whatever, there are going to be people criticizing who you picked. You can't just hide behind a shield of "subjectivity" when by all accounts, the people you picked have some semblance of objective reasoning.

Yes, it is a good article in general, although not the greatest. After all, it has so far sparked more than 10 pages of discussion. I didn't enjoy it too much myself; the language was too superfluous. But I think for your intended audience and what you wrote, it was a good article.

EDIT: And I disagree with your own reasoning when you keep saying there was no "point" in writing this article. There clearly is: for you to give your opinion on who you think have been significant figures in the history of Broodwar. Heck, 75% of the article is about the "heroes" themselves and what moments crowned them as heroic. There was a point, whether you want to admit it or not.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 18 2009 20:23 GMT
#235
On October 18 2009 20:17 siv00 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2009 19:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 18 2009 19:34 keV. wrote:

I was expecting people to comment on memories of the older players, discuss SC2 and what will happen to BW when it comes out, and talk about the growth/changes in the foreign scene.


BORING. We only do that here once every other day...


So you weren't expecting critique? Maybe its just me who feels the "derailing" of your thread was massively exaggerated, which is disconcerting.


Well I was disappointed the entire conversation went toward the Bisu/Jaedong thing which I didn't feel was a large part of the article. Aside from the "good article" posts by the people with like 8 total post account I felt like no one really liked this article.

I'm not ashamed of it like i am of "On Fire" but I'm not going to lie; i take criticism really badly. I work on it though and if I'm going to progress as a writer it needs to be done.


Why are you ashamed of On Fire?


It was rushed, poorly written, and I could have done better but had it released anyway.
RIP Aaliyah
SagaZ
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
France3460 Posts
October 18 2009 23:23 GMT
#236
Really nice read
I certainly agree that things right now aren't as epic as they were before. but we still have our occasionals peaks of exitement, mainly PL finals, Winners league finals, OSL groups selections (Zergs picks circus) and the whole clash between fantasy and JD in the two last OSLs.
I also have to mention ACE's matchs last season, oversky made ZvZ fun to watch.
also thanks for linking the FE for each players, i missed a couple of those.
Be nice, buy wards and don't feed double buff.
Mykill
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada3402 Posts
October 18 2009 23:46 GMT
#237
Man this great writeup is turning into a fanboy war >_>
[~~The Impossible Leads To Invention~~] CJ Entusman #52 The problem with internet quotations is that they are hard to verify -Abraham Lincoln c.1863
domane
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada1606 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-19 02:51:43
October 19 2009 02:45 GMT
#238
On October 18 2009 19:03 Letmelose wrote:
Demanding Jaedong to win people over by doing something he is not known for is such a childish ploy.
On October 18 2009 19:03 Letmelose wrote:
Jaedong has been doing his thing for years now, and it's up to you to appreciate it or not. Just don't blame it on Jaedong if you can't appreciate him fully.
No one expects Jaedong to try to "win people over" nor blames him for other people not acknowledging him. None of the previous bonjwas actively promoted their public image - they focused on their gaming and their success brought along the positive attention.

It is up to the fans and the media to find and spread stuff about these players. Notions of their play styles and personalities.

It is harder now because there are more s-class and a-class players that divide up the popularity and attention. Imagine if Flash and some of the a-class were absent from pro SC. Likely, remaining players would have gotten more coverage (ex. camera time). The current rivalry between Jaedong and Bisu might have been hyped up, so that it became viewed, as great as the rivalry between Boxer and Yellow.

On October 18 2009 19:03 Letmelose wrote:
If Jaedong hasn't won you over by now, it probably means that it just isn't meant to be.
Actually, the passing of time can easily sway a person's opinion.

Maybe after a while, people would make better comparisons of today's s-class. They might think that Jaedong was enough above Flash and Bisu, that he deserved a place among the "great" players.

Maybe in a few years, Jaedong will win 2 more OSLs and earn a platinum mouse. That would likely make the argument for his status as a bonjwa, irrefutable.

Also, what if most of the SC community, came to see Jaedong as a bonjwa?

The regular attention (discussions, pictures, greatest replays, etc.) to Jaedong might influence previously unconvinced viewers to think/say, "I was wrong, this guy is the greatest player of all time"
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
October 19 2009 07:42 GMT
#239
It's incredibly difficult to catch on to what makes a player truly great, and especially so if you don't have the luxury doing so in retrospect. It took a lot of people forever to figure out that Iloveoov was much more than a monstrous macro machine, and that July's aggressiveness did not necessarily equate to low economy play. Nowadays people simply write Jaedong off as a perfect multitasking beast who simply overpowers fellow gamers through pure mechanics perfected by hours of practice. Of course, as with all generalizations, there's some truth to the statement, but it's quite surprising how many people are willing to downplay his worth as a gamer because he is not "innovative" enough or because he was somehow "furtunate" to play in this era.

Jaedong's style is actually more varied than most of the zerg players out there, and despite that, he is somehow viewed as a one note player because of his unmissable mechanical skill. He has been the representative of the zerg race through the good times and the bad after Savior's downfall, and yet some people think he was lucky with his successes. When people start asking Jaedong to revive the drama Savior produced, or to stop winning in a zerg dominated era (because they are tired of zerg versus zerg), or to start doing innovations that replace his mechanical skill as his most potent weaponry, I start to wonder if they are ready to take him for what he is at all.

It's like dismissing Boxer in his prime for his awesome versus zerg skills, and claiming that his micromanagement were simply abuses unthought of by the designers that compensated for his overall weakness for the game overall. Jaedong has a lot to bring to the table, and if people can only spot his most visible assets, that's their problem, not Jaedong's. That was what I was trying to say. I'm never one to claim that I understand the full scope of Jaedong's magnificence, but I know for sure that NO player in the scene right now can survive such arduous demands by perfecting mechanics alone. Jaedong probably has more depth to him than most gamers out there, yet everyone is happy to conclude with "Jaedong only wins because he clicks faster than others". It's just like the MSL commentators giving up on how Jaedong managed to defeat Bisu on Blue Storm after serenating Bisu praise after praise throughout the game, and concluding the game can only be explained as the inexplicable durability of the zerg race in the late game. It's not missing just because you cannot explain it. There's more to Jaedong than most of us acknowledge, and it's our shortcomings for not getting it fully.

Jaedong already is rewritting records, and while it's a stretch to say that what some of the more extreme followers of him say, it's even more absurd to downplay his legend when it already stands toe to toe with the likes of Savior. "Bonjwa" is such a vague term, and it means so many things to different people. Just because Jaedong does not meet your standards for "bonjwa" for whatever reasons, does not mean that he is not worthy of being compared to the past legends. If
you feel like there's something "missing" that makes him great, perhaps it's up to you to find it (or just let it be), not for him the create. Why must he win a Platinum Mouse for approval from the fans? Denying Jaedong of ANY title he wants if he actually accomplishes such a feat would require serious mental retardation or denial borderlining psychosis.
TL+ Member
OpticalShot
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada6330 Posts
October 19 2009 08:00 GMT
#240
O god what a thread.
Going to actually read it thoroughly in a week or so...
[TLMS] REBOOT
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
October 19 2009 08:10 GMT
#241
Ahhh Bisu/Jaedong/Flash, the three greatest players to have ever played this game. These three just basically exploded onto the scene and dominated in their own time frames. I just have to wonder if the future generations will produce anyone that comes even close to the skill and talent of these three, much less surpass them.

Unfortunately I can't really see any new/current players that can acheive such a feat :l
Writerptrk
theslayer922
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Canada304 Posts
October 19 2009 08:27 GMT
#242
Put this on final edits!! >.<
In the Donger I Trust
iloveHieu
Profile Joined November 2007
United States1919 Posts
October 19 2009 08:29 GMT
#243
wow sweet read, definitely a lot of insights I'm looking forward to explore!
Xellos <3
Wedge
Profile Joined March 2008
Canada580 Posts
October 19 2009 08:32 GMT
#244
I'm extremely late to the party, but still felt the need to show my appreciation.

Great write-up, good time to be a BW fan again, as everything is starting up again. The last month or so was pretty rough.
Liquid`Nazgul
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
22427 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-19 09:08:28
October 19 2009 09:08 GMT
#245
On October 19 2009 17:10 ArvickHero wrote:
Ahhh Bisu/Jaedong/Flash, the three greatest players to have ever played this game. These three just basically exploded onto the scene and dominated in their own time frames. I just have to wonder if the future generations will produce anyone that comes even close to the skill and talent of these three, much less surpass them.

Unfortunately I can't really see any new/current players that can acheive such a feat :l

The three greatest players to have played the game.. really. The word great in discussions like this does not equal the most skilled in case you didn't realize. Greatest athletes are those who surpassed all their peers and did what was deemed impossible in their own time frame. Non of your three 'greatest' players have done such a thing when comparing them to a few others in history of BW.

They probably won't be surpassed but the reason for this is different, it's because SC is nearing it's high point in terms of skill. If you are top in this era it means with time it will be harder to surpass you. There could be 10 players at Bisu/Jaedong/Flash level a few years from now, will you be calling them the 10 greatest players to have ever played the game?
Administrator
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10691 Posts
October 19 2009 09:33 GMT
#246
Haven't people said that SC/BW is nearing it's peak since like... 5++ years?
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
October 19 2009 09:54 GMT
#247
On October 19 2009 18:08 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2009 17:10 ArvickHero wrote:
Ahhh Bisu/Jaedong/Flash, the three greatest players to have ever played this game. These three just basically exploded onto the scene and dominated in their own time frames. I just have to wonder if the future generations will produce anyone that comes even close to the skill and talent of these three, much less surpass them.

Unfortunately I can't really see any new/current players that can acheive such a feat :l

The three greatest players to have played the game.. really. The word great in discussions like this does not equal the most skilled in case you didn't realize. Greatest athletes are those who surpassed all their peers and did what was deemed impossible in their own time frame. Non of your three 'greatest' players have done such a thing when comparing them to a few others in history of BW.

They probably won't be surpassed but the reason for this is different, it's because SC is nearing it's high point in terms of skill. If you are top in this era it means with time it will be harder to surpass you. There could be 10 players at Bisu/Jaedong/Flash level a few years from now, will you be calling them the 10 greatest players to have ever played the game?

Guess I just have a different definition of "greatest" from you. The giants of the past I consider legendary with their acheivements and pioneering, they were definitely some of the greatest players to play the game. However when I think greatest, I think of how masterfully the game is played, and the current three kings just play the game at an unparalleled skill when playing their finest. They deserve just as much recognition as the old Bonjwas.

I would venture to say that if you put either Boxer/Oov/Nada/Savior in today's setting as a fresh new progamer, they would not be able to dominate the game like they have in their own respective times. In reverse of that, if you put Bisu/Jaedong/Flash back in the past as fresh new progamers, I wouldn't doubt that they would be heralded as Bonjwas years after.
Writerptrk
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
October 19 2009 09:59 GMT
#248
On October 19 2009 18:08 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2009 17:10 ArvickHero wrote:
Ahhh Bisu/Jaedong/Flash, the three greatest players to have ever played this game. These three just basically exploded onto the scene and dominated in their own time frames. I just have to wonder if the future generations will produce anyone that comes even close to the skill and talent of these three, much less surpass them.

Unfortunately I can't really see any new/current players that can acheive such a feat :l

The three greatest players to have played the game.. really. The word great in discussions like this does not equal the most skilled in case you didn't realize. Greatest athletes are those who surpassed all their peers and did what was deemed impossible in their own time frame. Non of your three 'greatest' players have done such a thing when comparing them to a few others in history of BW.

I would say Jaedong is definitely becoming ''great'' in this sense. Winning the Golden Mouse (two OSL's in a row which hasn't been done by anyone since Boxer), an MSL and one GOM thingy in the same era as players such as Bisu, Flash and Stork is a ridiculously impressive feat. He has surpassed all his peers by doing this. He's up there with the greats after the last OSL.
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
Liquid`Nazgul
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
22427 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-19 10:12:30
October 19 2009 10:03 GMT
#249
On October 19 2009 18:54 ArvickHero wrote:
Guess I just have a different definition of "greatest" from you. The giants of the past I consider legendary with their acheivements and pioneering, they were definitely some of the greatest players to play the game. However when I think greatest, I think of how masterfully the game is played, and the current three kings just play the game at an unparalleled skill when playing their finest. They deserve just as much recognition as the old Bonjwas.

I would venture to say that if you put either Boxer/Oov/Nada/Savior in today's setting as a fresh new progamer, they would not be able to dominate the game like they have in their own respective times. In reverse of that, if you put Bisu/Jaedong/Flash back in the past as fresh new progamers, I wouldn't doubt that they would be heralded as Bonjwas years after.

Do you watch football? I guarantee you there's hundreds of players better than Pele, but are they all greater? Tennis same thing there are thousands of players better than Rod Laver and Bjorn Borg on an absolute level.

I would say Jaedong is definitely becoming ''great'' in this sense. Winning the Golden Mouse (two OSL's in a row which hasn't been done by anyone since Boxer), an MSL and one GOM thingy in the same era as players such as Bisu, Flash and Stork is a ridiculously impressive feat. He has surpassed all his peers by doing this. He's up there with the greats after the last OSL.

You're right I might have been exaggerating a bit to prove a point. I do think those guys all have a shot/nearing being amongst the greatest, but time reference is definitely part of this discussion.
Administrator
siv00
Profile Joined September 2009
261 Posts
October 19 2009 10:25 GMT
#250
On October 19 2009 18:54 ArvickHero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2009 18:08 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
On October 19 2009 17:10 ArvickHero wrote:
Ahhh Bisu/Jaedong/Flash, the three greatest players to have ever played this game. These three just basically exploded onto the scene and dominated in their own time frames. I just have to wonder if the future generations will produce anyone that comes even close to the skill and talent of these three, much less surpass them.

Unfortunately I can't really see any new/current players that can acheive such a feat :l

The three greatest players to have played the game.. really. The word great in discussions like this does not equal the most skilled in case you didn't realize. Greatest athletes are those who surpassed all their peers and did what was deemed impossible in their own time frame. Non of your three 'greatest' players have done such a thing when comparing them to a few others in history of BW.

They probably won't be surpassed but the reason for this is different, it's because SC is nearing it's high point in terms of skill. If you are top in this era it means with time it will be harder to surpass you. There could be 10 players at Bisu/Jaedong/Flash level a few years from now, will you be calling them the 10 greatest players to have ever played the game?

Guess I just have a different definition of "greatest" from you. The giants of the past I consider legendary with their acheivements and pioneering, they were definitely some of the greatest players to play the game. However when I think greatest, I think of how masterfully the game is played, and the current three kings just play the game at an unparalleled skill when playing their finest. They deserve just as much recognition as the old Bonjwas.

I would venture to say that if you put either Boxer/Oov/Nada/Savior in today's setting as a fresh new progamer, they would not be able to dominate the game like they have in their own respective times. In reverse of that, if you put Bisu/Jaedong/Flash back in the past as fresh new progamers, I wouldn't doubt that they would be heralded as Bonjwas years after.


No, Bisu/Jaedong/Flash do not deserve as much recognition as NaDa or Boxer. People actually think this?
JohannesH
Profile Joined September 2009
Finland1364 Posts
October 19 2009 10:26 GMT
#251
On October 19 2009 18:33 Velr wrote:
Haven't people said that SC/BW is nearing it's peak since like... 5++ years?

Of course its constantly getting nearer. Doesnt mean that itd be reached.
If you have to ask, you don't know.
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
October 19 2009 10:56 GMT
#252
On October 19 2009 19:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2009 18:54 ArvickHero wrote:
Guess I just have a different definition of "greatest" from you. The giants of the past I consider legendary with their acheivements and pioneering, they were definitely some of the greatest players to play the game. However when I think greatest, I think of how masterfully the game is played, and the current three kings just play the game at an unparalleled skill when playing their finest. They deserve just as much recognition as the old Bonjwas.

I would venture to say that if you put either Boxer/Oov/Nada/Savior in today's setting as a fresh new progamer, they would not be able to dominate the game like they have in their own respective times. In reverse of that, if you put Bisu/Jaedong/Flash back in the past as fresh new progamers, I wouldn't doubt that they would be heralded as Bonjwas years after.

Do you watch football? I guarantee you there's hundreds of players better than Pele, but are they all greater? Tennis same thing there are thousands of players better than Rod Laver and Bjorn Borg on an absolute level.

Show nested quote +
I would say Jaedong is definitely becoming ''great'' in this sense. Winning the Golden Mouse (two OSL's in a row which hasn't been done by anyone since Boxer), an MSL and one GOM thingy in the same era as players such as Bisu, Flash and Stork is a ridiculously impressive feat. He has surpassed all his peers by doing this. He's up there with the greats after the last OSL.

You're right I might have been exaggerating a bit to prove a point. I do think those guys all have a shot/nearing being amongst the greatest, but time reference is definitely part of this discussion.

I definitely see your point; Pele is very good and appropriate example. It just annoys me when people are overly nostalgic, living in the past and don't see the history that is in the making. Federer is reaching the level of greatness that the old legends have, Ronaldo (the real one) will definitely be considered equally awesome as Pele and Maradona when he retires, and Jaedong for example is slowly but surely creeping closer to the Boxer/Nada/Savior/Oov guys.
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
ReiKo
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Croatia1023 Posts
October 19 2009 21:54 GMT
#253
Great article...
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
DaveTesta Events
18:00
Kirktown Ready Room #3
Liquipedia
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
18:00
RO8 Round Robin Group - Day 1
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
LiquipediaDiscussion
CSO Cup
16:00
#82
Liquipedia
FEL
16:00
Polish Championship - Group B
Gerald vs SpiritLIVE!
PAPI vs ArT
IndyStarCraft 377
CranKy Ducklings348
Liquipedia
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
15:55
FSL week 5 - CN vs IC
Freeedom16
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 377
BRAT_OK 84
MindelVK 22
StarCraft: Brood War
firebathero 1628
EffOrt 1023
Mini 853
Larva 416
Stork 371
HiyA 108
Mind 108
soO 90
ToSsGirL 90
Dewaltoss 87
[ Show more ]
Movie 39
Rock 32
Terrorterran 12
Dota 2
qojqva2468
monkeys_forever37
League of Legends
Grubby1642
Dendi811
Counter-Strike
fl0m1751
Stewie2K604
flusha491
Foxcn337
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor779
Other Games
B2W.Neo1302
Fuzer 430
KnowMe403
Lowko313
Hui .148
ToD111
Trikslyr53
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick47169
EGCTV1703
BasetradeTV21
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• kabyraGe 123
• printf 56
• HeavenSC 48
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• 80smullet 16
• Michael_bg 5
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos1501
Counter-Strike
• Nemesis2964
Other Games
• imaqtpie1215
• Shiphtur277
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
15h 56m
RSL Revival
15h 56m
Classic vs Clem
FEL
20h 56m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
23h 56m
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Wardi Open
1d 16h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV European League
2 days
PiGosaur Monday
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Epic.LAN
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Epic.LAN
6 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
HSC XXVII
NC Random Cup

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.