On October 11 2009 04:39 disciple wrote: Bisu is a novelty, thats why till this point his role seem more important to the scene than Jaedong's. Because of KTY, protoss actually start winning. First Toss to make it to 3 finals in a row, first toss to become #1 in KeSPa, first toss to win WCG... Skills shouldnt came into comparison. The only reason I see way Bisu has a hero status, and Jaedong doesnt is because Bisu stands out so much more when you put him to all other progamers who played protoss
Agreed. Although by "other progamers who played protoss" you mean most other than Nal_rA and Reach right? They were pretty influential with macro and strategy.
Reach and rA were great, but I agree with disciple in that Bisu is the protoss hero. I remember when Reach was the only toss in the OSL and the zealot bombs, and when rA was the only toss who PvZ'd decently with his Sair/Reaver. But Bisu came, he saw, and he dismantled the best player in the world 3-0. I didn't see too much into the victory at the time since I was still hoping for a Mantoss comeback but in retrospect, he really did shock the BW world.
Before I start, I must say that out of the three kings of this era: Jaedong, Bisu, and Flash. I like Jaedong the most and Bisu the least; nevertheless, Jaedong does not have the influence that Bisu has. He is also not a clear favorite over Bisu in head-to-head.
You guys were discussing charisma and heroism based on statistics before, so I dug up a couple of things. The first is from the recent All-Star Poll
Bisu flipped an entire match up. From the poll, he's the all time champion of protoss.
In terms of skill, there's no question when Bisu and Jaedong met during GOM, the last game could have went either way. Both players reported that they felt robbed from a deciding match. Bisu and Jaedong are nearly 50/50 (7-6) in matchs over lifetime. It's a coin-flip.
Many of you have mentioned how Jaedong can be seen as hero due to his brilliant game against Iris or his games against fantasy. The thing is, EVERYONE shows great games from time to time. Jaedong's games never changed a match up. Not like Bisu v Savior. Heck, a small tangent: there's always talk about how Fantasy is not innovative beyond his best laid plans and that he cannot even be called a challenger to the top 3, but take a look at game #5 on MBC's top 100 proleague games: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=50875¤tpage=302
fantasy realized his worsening situation and switch from SK to mass tanks while keeping up harrassment. He adapted and prevailed... against none other than Jaedong.
The bottomline is that Jaedong is dominant, but not more than Bisu. While Flash hasn't been making splashes in OSL/MSL lately, he's still as strong of a player as Jaedong or Bisu. None of the three have an aura of invincibility. As for losing to Calm, fantasy, Stork, EffOrt? Not surprising.
Jaedong brought a lot of change to ZvZ by reintroducing overgas builds when Raid Assult 2 was brought back. In ZvP he's the first person to have really brought out the modern mutahydra ideas in his games against Bisu on Colosseum and Othello, and he brought back 2hatch muta builds prominently enough for them not to be completely map dependent, gimmicky builds. .
He seriously has done quite a bit. Saying that Jaedong hasn't changed any of the three matchups is just complete ignorance.
It is true that Jaedong first rose to prominence being a super strong, mechanical, standard player, particularly during the LeeSsang era, but he has been innovating, and he has brought changes to Zerg. It just doesn't really seem like Jaedong didn't change anything for a lot of people because a lot of the changes he brought were either subtle, like a lot of his ZvZ innovations, or revivals of old things that were considered to be obsolete and showing that they are still viable.
ZvZ has changed so much ever since Jaedong has taken control of the matchup that it's ridiculous.
Talking about magnitude here. I haven't really seen a lot of mutahydra or queen/defiler or 2 control group mutas. Safe to say Fantasy had greater influence than Jaedong because of mech. Xellos/Goodfriend changed TvT, Midas put out modern TvP ideas, none of them are bonjwas.
On October 11 2009 06:29 ccou wrote: Not like Bisu v Savior.
Talking about magnitude here. I haven't really seen a lot of mutahydra or queen/defiler or 2 control group mutas. Safe to say Fantasy had greater influence than Jaedong because of mech. Xellos/Goodfriend changed TvT, Midas put out modern TvP ideas, none of them are bonjwas.
huh? mutahydra was very popular for a time, and the concept of sniping templars with mutalisks have become very solidified and you see Zergs doing it far more than they ever have before. Build trends in ZvP have changed lately though. 2 control mutas is just something that can happen; I have no idea why you even brought that out. 2hatch muta does not equal 2 groups of mutas.
And why did you bring out the bonjwa question as well? What does that have to do with anything of me saying that you're a fool if you think Jaedong wasn't involved in changing all three of the Zerg matchups. You also didn't include magnitude in your previous post. You just simply said that Jaedong didn't change any matchup. Which is hilariously wrong.
What changes did Fantasy make that were more significant than Jaedong? Okay, Fantasy refined his style of mech although Flash had started the revival of mech builds before him, and Upmagic developed a different style of mech. The really unique thing that Fantasy brought was his TvZ bachanic builds. Even besides all that, the mech builds that most people use isn't the Fantasy style mech but the Upmagic style mech. For TvP he introduced a more harassment focused style that was different from the style that Flash standardized, but Flash's style is still far more solid and prevalent in the scene.
A quick look at TLPD says this: Savior won 6 titles (4 gold 2 silver) over a period of ~2 years and 10 months counting from the start of the first league to the final of the last one. Jaedong won 6 titles (5 golds 1 silver) over a period of 2 years and 11 months using the same method of counting. And Jaedongs pro leage record >>> Saviors. People around here tend to overestimate Savior imo, yea there is no doubt that he was awe inspiring and great. But don't forget that until the very last 3 months of his reign he lost in the OSL offline qualifiers to the scrubs of that time over and over again. If fantasy hypothetical ability to beat jaedong in a bo5 (not that he ever has) disqualifies jaedong from bonjwa why doesn't saviors inability to consistently win vs scrubs disqualify him? I realize that people love nostalgia, but it's a pity when it prevents them from admiring the great brood war players right under their noses. During flash's quick surge to dominance he was about as likely to win any given game as iloveoov was during his, yet people would still cry that "macro has made everyone equally skilled nowadays".
Here, I must quote this old and gay fictional wizard who originated from the mind of a middle aged British woman:
"For I see now that what I have done, and not done, with regard to you, bears all the hallmarks of the failings of age. Youth cannot know how age thinks and feels. But old men are guilty if they forget what it was to be young...and I seem to have forgotten lately. But you still must know to respect those with experience Harry, or else imma Petrificus Totalus you and rape ya up the ass, you hear?"
with that said I now come to say that bisu is the best player ever and that every single one of the players before him would've never matched up to him and were nowhere as revolutionary whilst all the newer players aren't as and will never ever forever be as amazingingly influential and heroic as him bisu ftw yep
People please stop comparing records when comparing Jaedong to Savior
If Jaedong lost a BO5 to Bisu/Flash/Fantasy/Effort/Calm tomorrow would you be surprised? Yes. But would you be STUNNED? No.
Here is the difference - and please try to understand that if you weren't there to see it, you just can't quite fully appreciate the magnitude of it:
Once upon a time people would have bet their lives on a Savior Starleague BoX, especially if it was not ZvZ. Before Bisu I think Savior went something like 26-1 in BoX series, with the only loss being a ZvZ BO5 in the MSL finals. I'm not sure what his non ZvZ BoX record was but it must have been something like 20-0?
On December 21 2012 07:49 darktreb wrote: People please stop comparing records when comparing Jaedong to Savior
If Jaedong lost a BO5 to Bisu/Flash/Fantasy/Effort/Calm tomorrow would you be surprised? Yes. But would you be STUNNED? No.
Here is the difference - and please try to understand that if you weren't there to see it, you just can't quite fully appreciate the magnitude of it:
Once upon a time people would have bet their lives on a Savior Starleague BoX, especially if it was not ZvZ. Before Bisu I think Savior went something like 26-1 in BoX series, with the only loss being a ZvZ BO5 in the MSL finals. I'm not sure what his non ZvZ BoX record was but it must have been something like 20-0?
[B]On October 11 2009 01:06 Triple7 wrote: WOW. And I thought Jaedong's ZvZ was good...
dude he went up to 27-0.
nice read; I would also disagree about Jaedong "lacking personality" - his stare is, really, reminiscent of the CJ face. I guess his "cold" personality could be extended to "robotic"; maybe that's what the OP interprets it as? And jd's made lots of subtle changes to the game, but nothing "obvious/major."
I feel like OP picked fantasy purely because he's the latest guy to come up with a "totally" new build that becomes mainstream. and he's pretty good.
On October 11 2009 07:49 darktreb wrote: People please stop comparing records when comparing Jaedong to Savior
If Jaedong lost a BO5 to Bisu/Flash/Fantasy/Effort/Calm tomorrow would you be surprised? Yes. But would you be STUNNED? No.
Here is the difference - and please try to understand that if you weren't there to see it, you just can't quite fully appreciate the magnitude of it:
Once upon a time people would have bet their lives on a Savior Starleague BoX, especially if it was not ZvZ. Before Bisu I think Savior went something like 26-1 in BoX series, with the only loss being a ZvZ BO5 in the MSL finals. I'm not sure what his non ZvZ BoX record was but it must have been something like 20-0?
I'm sorry, but if you're going to first claim statistics aren't relevant, and then proceed use them, you should at the very least check if they're correct first. A bit of digging in the TLPD would find that he lost plenty more than 0 non ZvZ BoX.
On October 11 2009 07:49 darktreb wrote: People please stop comparing records when comparing Jaedong to Savior
If Jaedong lost a BO5 to Bisu/Flash/Fantasy/Effort/Calm tomorrow would you be surprised? Yes. But would you be STUNNED? No.
Here is the difference - and please try to understand that if you weren't there to see it, you just can't quite fully appreciate the magnitude of it:
Once upon a time people would have bet their lives on a Savior Starleague BoX, especially if it was not ZvZ. Before Bisu I think Savior went something like 26-1 in BoX series, with the only loss being a ZvZ BO5 in the MSL finals. I'm not sure what his non ZvZ BoX record was but it must have been something like 20-0?
Jaedong will always be my Bonjwa. I dont see how anyone with that many titles, insane winning record, low loss streaks and disgusting win streaks can not be considered one.
I dont know all the technicalities and mumbo-jumbo of it all, but damn he's good.
As for the write up, i loved it. Thank you for all the time you put into this, I agreed with just about all of it.
You're sighting this as evidence of charisma? Have you not thought about this at all?
Maybe the fact that voters were aware that a team gets to send a rep of their choice regardless of vote count. I mean, in reality, there is a pretty low chance of Oz sending Jaedong right?
Maybe the fact that there are much more consistent and favorite zerg players than protoss? BeSt came in third for god's sake...
If anyone could be defined as bonjwa it would be him; however his lack of personality and the competition that faces him has kept him from the hero status that even a less dominant player such as Bisu held. Jaedong hasn't done too much to revolutionize zerg beyond sAviOr's innovations besides perfecting what the maestro had laid out for him. Bisu is known as the revolutionist and while he may never have the statistics of Jaedong; his charm, game changing play, and legendary status propel him onto that hero echelon that Jaedong stands so near to. Yet, he is still not what we would call a bonjwa. Where are we without a Bonjwa's dominance or a Hero's charm?
Saying Jaedong has no charm or personality is somewhat demeaning. He may not be as iconic as boxer (who is?) but I think he has quite a personality and just as much charm. Now when I say personality I think you can feel lee jae dong's presence yet you can't feel the presence of someone like fantasy (who imo is A class at best) that stare and the focus/determination you can literally feel it. It's not about innovating the match ups, you could possibly say that he's innovated the whole game with his ludicrous apm (if you can't match my mechanics you can't win is a shift in the meta-game to me)
As for charm, the only thing I ever saw boxer do that was as charming as this was the sound alike video he did for his fans.
as for personality the only pro gamer that REALLY has it anymore is FBH and I absolutely hate FBH but he shows he's actually a person (WITH HUMOR) and not just a macro bot that only cares about the respect of his peers.
Final thought: Is this article suggesting that Nick "Tasteless" Plott is the current bonjwa of starcraft?????if so I approve.
EPT
