On October 10 2009 22:33 Rice wrote: I know im diving into a shit storm with this one but.... why is saviors cj face every single game every single win the definition of personality but with jaedong its apparently a completely different story and he has no personality? (atleast according to the article)
Uh you probably weren't around when Savior was dominant I guess.
Savior had that vibe about him that he KNEW he was good and he KNEW that people didn't stand a god damn chance against him. He looked arrogant and he looked like he knew no one could beat him... just look at the pictures he took back then compared to what he does now. It's such a big difference. He didn't acquire the "death stare" after being beaten once... Savior is basically the guy that invented the yawn rape.
I was around and this is my point exactly...you think jaedong doesnt "KNOW" hes good? perhaps other people are better when you compare jaedong with the rest of the scene and savior in his prime with the rest of the scene but how this changes their "vibe" is beyond me.. just because fans want to label savior as arrogant and see him as some badass based on reading his facial expressions.
Saying 10 gamers COULD be favorites over jaedong in a bo5 series right now is just ridiculous...youd be dumb to bet on anyone other than jaedong just like youd be dumb to bet on anyone over savior. This doesn't mean that they didn't/don't lose any games.
The fact that jaedongs competition is more fierce, in my opinion, should make him just seem all the more dominant...
I would vote for FantaSy over Jaedong. Really. The gap between Jaedong and his counterparts is so small compared to any of the Bonjwa. That's what makes a bonjwa. not stats.
This makes zero sense. Fantasy over Jaedong for bonjwa? Just stupid.
He's referring to who's the favourite in a Bo5 not who's more Bonjwa-worthy.
On October 10 2009 23:54 Sadistx wrote: Damn, this is the best article I've read on TL ever. If there was one thing I would show to new friends to teach them about progaming - this would be it.
"Welcome to the S-class" is a pleasantly readable, well-written article about the state of professional Starcraft. It contains alot of useful information and insight, cleverly organised to delineate a point about the difference between the present and the past of Starcraft, and to speculate about the future of e-sports. Is that depth?
"Only Until Midnight" is not about Starcraft or even the professional Starcraft scene; it's about emotion and being human. The feelings and experiences described are universal, even for someone who doesn't know what Starcraft is. Professional Starcraft is the subject matter, but the article transcends that, and in doing so, it raises professional Starcraft up with it. That's what I consider depth.
I agree with DoctorHelvetica that "Only Until Midnight" is the best article on TL, and the one I would show to new friends to teach them about progaming.
PS I feel a bit like Kanye West. My excuse is that DoctorHelvetica brought it up first
On October 10 2009 22:33 Rice wrote: I know im diving into a shit storm with this one but.... why is saviors cj face every single game every single win the definition of personality but with jaedong its apparently a completely different story and he has no personality? (atleast according to the article)
Uh you probably weren't around when Savior was dominant I guess.
Savior had that vibe about him that he KNEW he was good and he KNEW that people didn't stand a god damn chance against him. He looked arrogant and he looked like he knew no one could beat him... just look at the pictures he took back then compared to what he does now. It's such a big difference. He didn't acquire the "death stare" after being beaten once... Savior is basically the guy that invented the yawn rape.
I was around and this is my point exactly...you think jaedong doesnt "KNOW" hes good? perhaps other people are better when you compare jaedong with the rest of the scene and savior in his prime with the rest of the scene but how this changes their "vibe" is beyond me.. just because fans want to label savior as arrogant and see him as some badass based on reading his facial expressions.
Saying 10 gamers COULD be favorites over jaedong in a bo5 series right now is just ridiculous...youd be dumb to bet on anyone other than jaedong just like youd be dumb to bet on anyone over savior. This doesn't mean that they didn't/don't lose any games.
The fact that jaedongs competition is more fierce, in my opinion, should make him just seem all the more dominant...
I would vote for FantaSy over Jaedong. Really. The gap between Jaedong and his counterparts is so small compared to any of the Bonjwa. That's what makes a bonjwa. not stats.
This makes zero sense. Fantasy over Jaedong for bonjwa? Just stupid.
He's referring to who's the favourite in a Bo5 not who's more Bonjwa-worthy.
A lot of the newer people don't seem to really understand what it means for a player to have an aura of unbeatability, that feeling that nothing anybody else does will be good enough. When you cross into the territory of the S-class, the sign says: "There be monsters here." But when you cross into the territory of the bonjwas, the sign says: "There be gods here." It's just not something you can appreciate unless you seriously follow progaming through the era of dominance of such a god. All words fail to describe it. Your jaw hangs loose as S-class players break down into tears one-by-one.
When the replay of the MSL game between Savior and Nada got leaked, I think I watched it 60 or 70 times.
Jaedong is today's JulyZerg. Except there's no Oov.
On October 10 2009 21:08 raga4ka wrote: "They were just 2 zergs " blablabla . Back then July would have destroyed Bisu if he was able to get past Gorush . After all July has never lost a Bo5 to a protoss ( althought now he is pretty likely to lose ). July beat Bisu in the OSL qualifier just after Bisu destroyed Savior to win the MSL . Imo Jaedong controling 2 groups of mutas at once is heroic allright , because no one on the planet can do it and that's way it's heroic and what about the Eeee-han timing ? ..... when you mention Nada perfectly cloneing the Yamato it is the same thing .
They were just FUCKING 2 zergs at that time (like bisu and ra considered just 2 tosses for savior at gomtv) because bisu simply buttfucked your bonjwa and he didnt lose any important game in that period (besides 2 cheese lose to flash)
And i think why some people think that bisu is charismatic, because bisu entered the scene with 6-0 msl run, while jaedong entered with a 1-3 loss to rock, and bisu was hope of tosses, jaedong is just best zerg player since 2008, not a hope of a race.
Bisu might not have been the originator of the forge fe into sairs, but he is the one that brought it to the absolute forefront of PvZ and turned it into the standard. I don't know how anyone can try to discredit what Bisu has done.
It was definitely worth the long read. Phenomenal. I loved the compilation of Final Edits too, added some really great content and it was nice to reread them too. We'll have to just see this season if JD can really obtain that seat of dominance or if the scene is just going to be a bunch of switch ups. Thanks for this!
You are really harsh with JD. I really think the whole Batoo OSL final was truely heroic. Coming back from 0-2 to 2-2 and in the last game sensing the vulture jump, surrounding it with 2 ling and 1 drone and killing it with the fucking drone... You just cant say it was not heroic.
Unfortunately, I'm having a hard time viewing this article (and a lot of your comments) as more than problematic. I know you put a lot of work into this, so I'll try to be more constructive and less insulting with this post.
I don't think a lot of your player comparisons are apt. Much of what you write is, in fact, opinion and I respect that. It's just that certain statements don't match up. This is a good example:
On October 11 2009 00:27 alexpnd wrote: were there ever any real rivalries or just contrived grudge matches?
A solid question, with a lot of relevance to your article. Boxer/Yellow is the perfect example of a real rivalry. The two met countless times, and even though Boxer won the big leagues, Yellow was always there to try to take one for himself. Some of the 'rivalries' mentioned in the article were a bit contrived though. Boxer vs Anytime was never really a rivalry - it was just an interesting finals matchup. Garimto and even Nal_ra were more significant protoss rivals of Boxer than Anytime was. Savior and Nada also weren't rivals in much the same fashion. Nada almost always played well vs Savior - even after the OSL loss - he just wasn't in the picture enough afterward to slow down Savior's dominance. For a rivalry to really take foot, the players have to continually meet in significant matches. This is why it now seems like fantasy is a rival of Jaedong, rather than last year when it was obvious that Flash was Jaedong's rival.
I'm not sure how you reconcile writing an expansive article like this with the fact you haven't been following Starcraft progaming for many of the events you describe. The history of the progaming scene is very much there for the viewing, but you can't really make claims about dominance and such when you weren't there to 'feel' it. Looking back on even Savior's dominating presence, someone new to Starcraft who has only seen Jaedong play in no way could appreciate what was going on. Here's an example of what I'm talking about:
On October 10 2009 20:22 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I would not be even slightly surprised is Jaedong lost a Bo5 3-1 or 3-2 to any of the aforementioned players.
I would have shit my pants if BoxeR lost a series to anyone at his peak.
Despite the fact that pretty much everyone would be surprised if Jaedong lost a bo5, it's the second part which I'm referring the most to. Boxer was dominant, but it wasn't too surprising when he lost a series to a protoss player at the time. Boxer's TvP as a whole was an extension of his games with Nal_ra. He always put up a good fight, and made it look interesting by locking down carriers or something, but ended up losing in the end. He was Boxer, and fans expected him to win, but he's never dominated TvP anywhere near in the fashion he did with TvZ.
I find it silly to compare this to Jaedong's current status. Jaedong is strong in all matchups, and has won an OSL finals against each. It's very difficult to argue against that kind of dominance. The bo5s Jaedong has lost since his opening one vs Rock back in the day are one against a teammate (Forgg), and one against Calm during a time in which Jaedong was deep in both starleagues and the proleague playoffs. Most previous 'heroes' did not have to worry about such a demanding schedule. If Jaedong has time to practice, he is the clear favorite in any bo5. Even against Bisu, even against Flash:
On October 10 2009 19:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Also I'm not convinced he's better than FlaSh at his peak. Never forget 2008.
Ah yes, 2008. The year in which Jaedong beat Flash in not one, but two bo5s. Nothing against Flash (as you'll see in a second), but Jaedong was the better player at the time, and still is today.
On October 10 2009 22:21 chongu wrote: AWESOME article!!!! TL for LIEF!!! But seriously.... Fantasy has personality? : 3
and i really liked your percussion analogy and that you concluded the article by looking towards SC2... i'm so hyped
Yes actually he does. He's kind of cocky. Helps being the best terran in the world.
Fantasy remains extremely overhyped, largely due to his status as SKT's terran and Boxer/oov successor. He's not the best terran in the world - Flash is. I don't even think that's an argument. Also, I don't really see fantasy as cocky. I see him as a young player influenced heavily by his teachers (and who wouldn't be considering who they are) who is incredibly unreliable when games don't go as planned.
On October 11 2009 00:25 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I would vote for FantaSy over Jaedong. Really. The gap between Jaedong and his counterparts is so small compared to any of the Bonjwa. That's what makes a bonjwa. not stats.
It has to be said... over time: there is less left in the game to improve upon; there are more players competing; and players are starting at a younger age. All of these things complicate how dominance works. As other posters have mentioned, it's more impressive that Jaedong is able to dominate on a similar level to older gamers due to the current level of competition and how little separates players in terms of raw skill and mechanics.
As for Jaedong as a 'hero', that's very subjective, as you yourself admit:
On October 10 2009 21:50 meegrean wrote: -Jaedong is a hero in my opinion. Why should perfect mechanics be considered different from creative play? As long as you have a special characteristic that gives you dominating results, it should make you a hero. Also, take a look at his Kespa ranking. -Bisu is also kinda a hero too. I only wished he had won an OSL though. -Flash is sickly good, but he can't seem to win more titles so no, he's not a hero.
I guess my definition of hero is strongly influenced by a player's accomplishments.
I'm not defining hero by statistics alone. But it's all relative.
It is relative. Your heroes will be different from someone elses. I personally believe Jaedong is more of a hero than Bisu or fantasy, and you think otherwise. This poster makes a good point:
On October 10 2009 22:00 Loffeman wrote: I think JD is very carismatic in his own way as well. There is something in his focus and his stare that I gotta love.
Jaedong's resolve is what makes him a hero to many of us. Jaedong has admitted in the past that he doesn't think he has the raw skill of many players out there, but that his work ethic and practice make up for it. It's not just that, though. It's his stare. If you watch him when he plays the game, you quickly notice he is the most intense player out there. Unlike many players out there who appear to be browsing or something, you can tell he's playing just by watching him. It's this kind of thing that makes him an icon, in my opinion. His stare has defined the starcraft of the last two years, and threatens to do so for some time to come.
I don't find that a lack of personality, nor do I call it stagnation. I call it the mark of a hero.
Bisu is a novelty, thats why till this point his role seem more important to the scene than Jaedong's. Because of KTY, protoss actually start winning. First Toss to make it to 3 finals in a row, first toss to become #1 in KeSPa, first toss to win WCG... Skills shouldnt came into comparison. The only reason I see way Bisu has a hero status, and Jaedong doesnt is because Bisu stands out so much more when you put him to all other progamers who played protoss
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp144/Zeru/oov.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/riptide/proleague200809/pl_sf_jaedongstare.jpg)
