• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:43
CEST 09:43
KST 16:43
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202533RSL Season 1 - Final Week8[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams3Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams ASL20 Preliminary Maps BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL
Tourneys
[CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 567 users

Welcome to the S-Class - Page 9

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 7 8 9 10 11 13 Next All
dmfg
Profile Joined May 2008
United Kingdom591 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 01:16:46
October 11 2009 01:15 GMT
#161
On October 11 2009 09:13 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I could go right on and call Leta a hero for whatever subjective reasons might satisfy me and it would be pointless to argue because it's an opinion based on a relative/subjective term. It's like arguing over the definition of respect when really you're just throwing your differing perspectives at eachother with no result but mutual frustration.


I'd like to start off by saying that this was a really good article - however, I (and I suspect many others) wasn't really able to enjoy it properly simply because I feel aggrieved at the stance you've taken with Jaedong.

I mean topics such as the heroes of Broodwar or the faces of pro-gaming aren't abstract concepts earned with statistics, nor empty titles bestowed by agencies like KeSPA, nor even a reward for revolutionising a metagame. They're earned by players by winning over the hearts of their fans (or leaving their marks in anti-fans) - which might well be achieved by one of the mentioned means, of course.

Without doing any detailed research, I'm gonna assert that there is a significant number of people who do look up to Jaedong as a hero of Broodwar, and who think of his face when asked "who embodies Starcraft?", and that the significant amount of backlach to a very good article suggests this is probably valid.

So in that sense, I don't understand why you've gone to such lengths to exclude Jaedong. I don't know if it's because the fanbase belief in him just isn't as strong as I think he is, or if you have simply decided to write on your own opinions instead of the common consensus. I guess that doesn't really matter - I just think it's a shame that some of us haven't been able to enjoy your article to its fullest because of such a small thing (and surely one you must have anticipated when writing it!).
MuR)Ernu
Profile Joined September 2008
Finland768 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 01:21:42
October 11 2009 01:20 GMT
#162
jaedong bisu and flash collectively form the supamechatribonjwa which is the all 3 races, all 3 of the best players of the world put together. It makes supamechaBonJwA dominate everything

it is covered up because if this gets out....
its purposefully covered by sending all the players in different teams and stuff
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
October 11 2009 01:27 GMT
#163
FlaJaeSu?
Jaedong
ccou
Profile Joined December 2008
United States681 Posts
October 11 2009 02:09 GMT
#164
FlaBiDong

Cmon guys, there are better ways to argue your point than calling DoctorHelvetica retarded or dumb.
Wake up Mr. B!
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 11 2009 02:19 GMT
#165
No one called me retarded. People disagree pretty strongly and that's ok.
RIP Aaliyah
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 02:30:44
October 11 2009 02:28 GMT
#166
Zergbong is a true hero of our age and it's all completely subjective so therefore you just have to deal with it.

The point is, making a big scaling argument that has no purpose other than to get people to read an understand it is to appeal to the sensibility of the community. If every single person started writing 5 page essays on obviously controversial, and sometimes downright silly opinions the entire forum would just be a massive power rank thread.
Remember Violet.
ShaperofDreams
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada2492 Posts
October 11 2009 02:30 GMT
#167
Woot this thread is so sick, I think I'll re-read it later because of the epicness of all my favorite players. I hope this season won't be another Zerg one, even though The Dong is my favourite player.
Bitches don't know about my overlord. FUCK OFF ALDARIS I HAVE ENOUGH PYLONS. My Balls are as smooth as Eggs.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 11 2009 02:30 GMT
#168
On October 11 2009 11:28 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Zergbong is a true hero of our age and it's all completely subjective so therefore you just have to deal with it.


How can you justify saying zergbong is a hero unless you also include Gosl[Flying]. Gosl[Flying] has just as much personality. please prove yourself.
RIP Aaliyah
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 11 2009 02:31 GMT
#169
On October 11 2009 11:28 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Zergbong is a true hero of our age and it's all completely subjective so therefore you just have to deal with it.

The point is, making a big scaling argument that has no purpose other than to get people to read an understand it is to appeal to the sensibility of the community. If every single person started writing 5 page essays on obviously controversial, and sometimes downright silly opinions the entire forum would just be a massive power rank thread.


The problem is people are reading this and then focusing on the fact that I don't consider Jaedong a hero when that is such a small part of the article as a whole. The article is not a big scaling argument that Jaedong isn't a hero.

If he's a hero to you then power to you. He's not a hero to me.
RIP Aaliyah
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 02:39:10
October 11 2009 02:37 GMT
#170
On October 11 2009 11:31 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2009 11:28 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Zergbong is a true hero of our age and it's all completely subjective so therefore you just have to deal with it.

The point is, making a big scaling argument that has no purpose other than to get people to read an understand it is to appeal to the sensibility of the community. If every single person started writing 5 page essays on obviously controversial, and sometimes downright silly opinions the entire forum would just be a massive power rank thread.


The problem is people are reading this and then focusing on the fact that I don't consider Jaedong a hero when that is such a small part of the article as a whole. The article is not a big scaling argument that Jaedong isn't a hero.

If he's a hero to you then power to you. He's not a hero to me.


Yes, so you posted a big ass article that's highly controversial of an opinion that you HAD to know beforehand would be massively disliked. What was the point of the article? Trying to be Only Until Midnight but with a hint of Bisu cherish and Jaedong distaste?

I'm not even sure I get why you separate them. Bisu has more personality? That's not a tangible thing and even if it were you could argue the hell out of it. The entire article is fluff for fluff's sake with controversy for controversy's sake. Your criticism of Jaedong for why he isn't in your little pantheon is that he isn't the right kind of person? The entire thing is ridiculous.

I don't get the point of this. You put it in the broodwar section so you obviously wanted it to be indicative of the pro scene, otherwise a pure opinion piece with no bearing would've been put in Blogs.
Remember Violet.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 02:43:10
October 11 2009 02:42 GMT
#171
On October 11 2009 11:37 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2009 11:31 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On October 11 2009 11:28 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Zergbong is a true hero of our age and it's all completely subjective so therefore you just have to deal with it.

The point is, making a big scaling argument that has no purpose other than to get people to read an understand it is to appeal to the sensibility of the community. If every single person started writing 5 page essays on obviously controversial, and sometimes downright silly opinions the entire forum would just be a massive power rank thread.


The problem is people are reading this and then focusing on the fact that I don't consider Jaedong a hero when that is such a small part of the article as a whole. The article is not a big scaling argument that Jaedong isn't a hero.

If he's a hero to you then power to you. He's not a hero to me.


Yes, so you posted a big ass article that's highly controversial of an opinion that you HAD to know beforehand would be massively disliked. What was the point of the article? Trying to be Only Until Midnight but with a hint of Bisu cherish and Jaedong distaste?

I'm not even sure I get why you separate them. Bisu has more personality? That's not a tangible thing and even if it were you could argue the hell out of it. The entire article is fluff for fluff's sake with controversy for controversy's sake. Your criticism of Jaedong for why he isn't in your little pantheon is that he isn't the right kind of person? The entire thing is ridiculous.

I don't get the point of this. You put it in the broodwar section so you obviously wanted it to be indicative of the pro scene, otherwise a pure opinion piece with no bearing would've been put in Blogs.


I'm sorry you don't like my article.

I have no distaste for Jaedong and I hate Bisu more than any other progamer. I want him to retire now and never ever be seen again.
RIP Aaliyah
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 02:51:39
October 11 2009 02:46 GMT
#172
Thanks for responding to my criticisms, you've completely answered all of my questions on the purpose and intent of this article.

I don't care if you don't think Jaedong's a hero or whatever, I care about you posting some big fancy article in the broodwar section like it was the next TLFE when the whole thing is a fluff piece about Bonjwas and how Bisu > Jaedong, with some stuff about...Tasteless at the end? It's entitled "Welcome to the S-Class" so you think you're going to hear all about the top players of today, and the newcomers who are edging in on the Big 3, but then we get a long winded diatribe about how great Boxer/nada/oov were, some Bisu flattery, a small putdown on Jaedong, some stuff about Fantasy and then Tasteless.

The picture in the OP has Effort in it but he barely gets recognized, the title is misleading because you don't even begin to talk about the likes of Calm who seems like the perfect character for the title. Flash gets little blurbs in other people's articles, etc etc. It's disjointed praise fluff.
Remember Violet.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 11 2009 02:49 GMT
#173
On October 11 2009 11:46 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Thanks for responding to my criticisms, you've completely answered all of my questions on the purpose and intent of this article.


I've described the purpose and intent of this article before and in two disclaimers. I don't feel like regurgitating points I've already made at every critic.

If it's not to your satisfaction I'm sorry I can't justify my writing to your standards. read other articles.
RIP Aaliyah
Probe.
Profile Joined May 2009
United States877 Posts
October 11 2009 03:05 GMT
#174
TwoToneTerran, you need to find a GPS so you can navigate your head out of jaedongs ass. The article was opinionated and a good read. Yes there wasn't much purpose to it but so what? Why does it concern you so bad about what he wrote or didn't write about jaedong? Just let it go man.
meow
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
October 11 2009 03:10 GMT
#175
On October 11 2009 12:05 Probe. wrote:
TwoToneTerran, you need to find a GPS so you can navigate your head out of jaedongs ass. The article was opinionated and a good read. Yes there wasn't much purpose to it but so what? Why does it concern you so bad about what he wrote or didn't write about jaedong? Just let it go man.


Please rerain from insulting other members in my thread.
RIP Aaliyah
Yamoth
Profile Joined February 2009
United States315 Posts
October 11 2009 03:14 GMT
#176
Wow, the Jaedong fanboys really come out in trove and tear you to shred over this article. I think your biggest problem is the term you use. I don't think the term charisma was the right choice. I think the word you are trying to use here is "impact" or "revolutionary (yea, I went there)". If I read this correctly, the biggest point you are trying to make is that while you like Jaedong can't really be considered a hero not so much as he doesn't have the charisma, the skill, or mechanic. The reason you would pick Bisu over Jaedong was because Jaedong didn't bring the zerg out of the dark age like what Bisu did. Jaedong can't be considered a hero because in his time zerg don't need saving nor did he reign over his throne as the undisputed absolute best of this time. I mean if you mention any of the so called hero named by Helvetica, most sc fans can immediately recall exactly what is it that make them famous. I can't for the life of me recall any game played by Jaedong that would mark a major turning point in starcraft.

So until he can without a shadow of a doubt be consider a favorite in a BoX again the likes of Biso and Flash or drastically change the meta game of starcraft. He can't be considered a "Hero" by the Doc standard.
Jonvvv
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Norway1530 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 06:22:08
October 11 2009 03:19 GMT
#177


Btw, great article!
Liquipedia
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-11 03:51:28
October 11 2009 03:46 GMT
#178
On October 11 2009 12:05 Probe. wrote:
TwoToneTerran, you need to find a GPS so you can navigate your head out of jaedongs ass. The article was opinionated and a good read. Yes there wasn't much purpose to it but so what? Why does it concern you so bad about what he wrote or didn't write about jaedong? Just let it go man.


I don't give one damn about what he thinks about Jaedong. I found the article misleading via the title, cliche via the content, disjointed via the topics, his criteria skewed via his comparisons, and that it'd be better found in Blogs instead of the Broodwar section.

Get your head out of his ass if you don't think he's worthy of critique.

On October 11 2009 12:14 Yamoth wrote:
Wow, the Jaedong fanboys really come out in trove and tear you to shred over this article. I think your biggest problem is the term you use. I don't think the term charisma was the right choice. I think the word you are trying to use here is "impact" or "revolutionary (yea, I went there)". If I read this correctly, the biggest point you are trying to make is that while you like Jaedong can't really be considered a hero not so much as he doesn't have the charisma, the skill, or mechanic. The reason you would pick Bisu over Jaedong was because Jaedong didn't bring the zerg out of the dark age like what Bisu did. Jaedong can't be considered a hero because in his time zerg don't need saving nor did he reign over his throne as the undisputed absolute best of this time. I mean if you mention any of the so called hero named by Helvetica, most sc fans can immediately recall exactly what is it that make them famous. I can't for the life of me recall any game played by Jaedong that would mark a major turning point in starcraft.

So until he can without a shadow of a doubt be consider a favorite in a BoX again the likes of Biso and Flash or drastically change the meta game of starcraft. He can't be considered a "Hero" by the Doc standard.


If this were the case, Flash would be a Hero for revolutionizing TvP, bringing Terrans out of their worst position in history (He was the single shining beacon of terran during Taek Bang), etc etc. He specifically called his criteria an 'it' factor. I don't disagree, but I don't think it's article worthy.
Remember Violet.
Armathai
Profile Joined October 2007
1023 Posts
October 11 2009 03:47 GMT
#179
DoctorHelvetica, your article was a great read and sparked some interesting and opionated arguments which were a fun read as well.
My favorite paragraph from the comments was definitely:
On October 11 2009 04:26 QibingZero wrote:
Fantasy remains extremely overhyped, largely due to his status as SKT's terran and Boxer/oov successor. He's not the best terran in the world - Flash is. I don't even think that's an argument. Also, I don't really see fantasy as cocky. I see him as a young player influenced heavily by his teachers (and who wouldn't be considering who they are) who is incredibly unreliable when games don't go as planned.

Not only do I agree with Qibing here, but I would seriously say that even Leta has shown better overall performance and more evolving gameplay (think tvz) than Fantasy.


Looking for ArcticCerebrate formerly from @USEast
deL
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Australia5540 Posts
October 11 2009 03:52 GMT
#180
Really great article enjoyed every word of it and I can relate with your story at the end, as I am sure many can.
Gaming videos for fun ~ http://www.youtube.com/user/WijLopenLos
Prev 1 7 8 9 10 11 13 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 17m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech78
StarCraft: Brood War
Nal_rA 4785
Hyuk 4080
Zeus 1366
ToSsGirL 252
Leta 95
Backho 81
Sacsri 55
ajuk12(nOOB) 23
NaDa 22
Britney 0
Dota 2
ODPixel230
XcaliburYe166
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K925
Other Games
summit1g6011
ceh9473
SortOf32
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1168
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH446
• Sammyuel 37
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota253
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
2h 17m
ByuN vs Zoun
SHIN vs TriGGeR
Cyan vs ShoWTimE
Rogue vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs Solar
Reynor vs Maru
herO vs Cure
Serral vs Classic
Esports World Cup
1d 2h
Esports World Cup
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Online Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.