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On October 11 2009 09:13 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I could go right on and call Leta a hero for whatever subjective reasons might satisfy me and it would be pointless to argue because it's an opinion based on a relative/subjective term. It's like arguing over the definition of respect when really you're just throwing your differing perspectives at eachother with no result but mutual frustration.
I'd like to start off by saying that this was a really good article - however, I (and I suspect many others) wasn't really able to enjoy it properly simply because I feel aggrieved at the stance you've taken with Jaedong.
I mean topics such as the heroes of Broodwar or the faces of pro-gaming aren't abstract concepts earned with statistics, nor empty titles bestowed by agencies like KeSPA, nor even a reward for revolutionising a metagame. They're earned by players by winning over the hearts of their fans (or leaving their marks in anti-fans) - which might well be achieved by one of the mentioned means, of course.
Without doing any detailed research, I'm gonna assert that there is a significant number of people who do look up to Jaedong as a hero of Broodwar, and who think of his face when asked "who embodies Starcraft?", and that the significant amount of backlach to a very good article suggests this is probably valid.
So in that sense, I don't understand why you've gone to such lengths to exclude Jaedong. I don't know if it's because the fanbase belief in him just isn't as strong as I think he is, or if you have simply decided to write on your own opinions instead of the common consensus. I guess that doesn't really matter - I just think it's a shame that some of us haven't been able to enjoy your article to its fullest because of such a small thing (and surely one you must have anticipated when writing it!).
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jaedong bisu and flash collectively form the supamechatribonjwa which is the all 3 races, all 3 of the best players of the world put together. It makes supamechaBonJwA dominate everything
it is covered up because if this gets out....
its purposefully covered by sending all the players in different teams and stuff
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FlaBiDong
Cmon guys, there are better ways to argue your point than calling DoctorHelvetica retarded or dumb.
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No one called me retarded. People disagree pretty strongly and that's ok.
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Zergbong is a true hero of our age and it's all completely subjective so therefore you just have to deal with it.
The point is, making a big scaling argument that has no purpose other than to get people to read an understand it is to appeal to the sensibility of the community. If every single person started writing 5 page essays on obviously controversial, and sometimes downright silly opinions the entire forum would just be a massive power rank thread.
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Woot this thread is so sick, I think I'll re-read it later because of the epicness of all my favorite players. I hope this season won't be another Zerg one, even though The Dong is my favourite player.
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On October 11 2009 11:28 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Zergbong is a true hero of our age and it's all completely subjective so therefore you just have to deal with it.
How can you justify saying zergbong is a hero unless you also include Gosl[Flying]. Gosl[Flying] has just as much personality. please prove yourself.
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On October 11 2009 11:28 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Zergbong is a true hero of our age and it's all completely subjective so therefore you just have to deal with it.
The point is, making a big scaling argument that has no purpose other than to get people to read an understand it is to appeal to the sensibility of the community. If every single person started writing 5 page essays on obviously controversial, and sometimes downright silly opinions the entire forum would just be a massive power rank thread.
The problem is people are reading this and then focusing on the fact that I don't consider Jaedong a hero when that is such a small part of the article as a whole. The article is not a big scaling argument that Jaedong isn't a hero.
If he's a hero to you then power to you. He's not a hero to me.
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On October 11 2009 11:31 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2009 11:28 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Zergbong is a true hero of our age and it's all completely subjective so therefore you just have to deal with it.
The point is, making a big scaling argument that has no purpose other than to get people to read an understand it is to appeal to the sensibility of the community. If every single person started writing 5 page essays on obviously controversial, and sometimes downright silly opinions the entire forum would just be a massive power rank thread. The problem is people are reading this and then focusing on the fact that I don't consider Jaedong a hero when that is such a small part of the article as a whole. The article is not a big scaling argument that Jaedong isn't a hero. If he's a hero to you then power to you. He's not a hero to me.
Yes, so you posted a big ass article that's highly controversial of an opinion that you HAD to know beforehand would be massively disliked. What was the point of the article? Trying to be Only Until Midnight but with a hint of Bisu cherish and Jaedong distaste?
I'm not even sure I get why you separate them. Bisu has more personality? That's not a tangible thing and even if it were you could argue the hell out of it. The entire article is fluff for fluff's sake with controversy for controversy's sake. Your criticism of Jaedong for why he isn't in your little pantheon is that he isn't the right kind of person? The entire thing is ridiculous.
I don't get the point of this. You put it in the broodwar section so you obviously wanted it to be indicative of the pro scene, otherwise a pure opinion piece with no bearing would've been put in Blogs.
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On October 11 2009 11:37 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2009 11:31 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 11 2009 11:28 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Zergbong is a true hero of our age and it's all completely subjective so therefore you just have to deal with it.
The point is, making a big scaling argument that has no purpose other than to get people to read an understand it is to appeal to the sensibility of the community. If every single person started writing 5 page essays on obviously controversial, and sometimes downright silly opinions the entire forum would just be a massive power rank thread. The problem is people are reading this and then focusing on the fact that I don't consider Jaedong a hero when that is such a small part of the article as a whole. The article is not a big scaling argument that Jaedong isn't a hero. If he's a hero to you then power to you. He's not a hero to me. Yes, so you posted a big ass article that's highly controversial of an opinion that you HAD to know beforehand would be massively disliked. What was the point of the article? Trying to be Only Until Midnight but with a hint of Bisu cherish and Jaedong distaste? I'm not even sure I get why you separate them. Bisu has more personality? That's not a tangible thing and even if it were you could argue the hell out of it. The entire article is fluff for fluff's sake with controversy for controversy's sake. Your criticism of Jaedong for why he isn't in your little pantheon is that he isn't the right kind of person? The entire thing is ridiculous. I don't get the point of this. You put it in the broodwar section so you obviously wanted it to be indicative of the pro scene, otherwise a pure opinion piece with no bearing would've been put in Blogs.
I'm sorry you don't like my article.
I have no distaste for Jaedong and I hate Bisu more than any other progamer. I want him to retire now and never ever be seen again.
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Thanks for responding to my criticisms, you've completely answered all of my questions on the purpose and intent of this article.
I don't care if you don't think Jaedong's a hero or whatever, I care about you posting some big fancy article in the broodwar section like it was the next TLFE when the whole thing is a fluff piece about Bonjwas and how Bisu > Jaedong, with some stuff about...Tasteless at the end? It's entitled "Welcome to the S-Class" so you think you're going to hear all about the top players of today, and the newcomers who are edging in on the Big 3, but then we get a long winded diatribe about how great Boxer/nada/oov were, some Bisu flattery, a small putdown on Jaedong, some stuff about Fantasy and then Tasteless.
The picture in the OP has Effort in it but he barely gets recognized, the title is misleading because you don't even begin to talk about the likes of Calm who seems like the perfect character for the title. Flash gets little blurbs in other people's articles, etc etc. It's disjointed praise fluff.
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On October 11 2009 11:46 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Thanks for responding to my criticisms, you've completely answered all of my questions on the purpose and intent of this article.
I've described the purpose and intent of this article before and in two disclaimers. I don't feel like regurgitating points I've already made at every critic.
If it's not to your satisfaction I'm sorry I can't justify my writing to your standards. read other articles.
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TwoToneTerran, you need to find a GPS so you can navigate your head out of jaedongs ass. The article was opinionated and a good read. Yes there wasn't much purpose to it but so what? Why does it concern you so bad about what he wrote or didn't write about jaedong? Just let it go man.
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On October 11 2009 12:05 Probe. wrote:
TwoToneTerran, you need to find a GPS so you can navigate your head out of jaedongs ass. The article was opinionated and a good read. Yes there wasn't much purpose to it but so what? Why does it concern you so bad about what he wrote or didn't write about jaedong? Just let it go man.
Please rerain from insulting other members in my thread.
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Wow, the Jaedong fanboys really come out in trove and tear you to shred over this article. I think your biggest problem is the term you use. I don't think the term charisma was the right choice. I think the word you are trying to use here is "impact" or "revolutionary (yea, I went there)". If I read this correctly, the biggest point you are trying to make is that while you like Jaedong can't really be considered a hero not so much as he doesn't have the charisma, the skill, or mechanic. The reason you would pick Bisu over Jaedong was because Jaedong didn't bring the zerg out of the dark age like what Bisu did. Jaedong can't be considered a hero because in his time zerg don't need saving nor did he reign over his throne as the undisputed absolute best of this time. I mean if you mention any of the so called hero named by Helvetica, most sc fans can immediately recall exactly what is it that make them famous. I can't for the life of me recall any game played by Jaedong that would mark a major turning point in starcraft.
So until he can without a shadow of a doubt be consider a favorite in a BoX again the likes of Biso and Flash or drastically change the meta game of starcraft. He can't be considered a "Hero" by the Doc standard.
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Norway1530 Posts
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On October 11 2009 12:05 Probe. wrote:
TwoToneTerran, you need to find a GPS so you can navigate your head out of jaedongs ass. The article was opinionated and a good read. Yes there wasn't much purpose to it but so what? Why does it concern you so bad about what he wrote or didn't write about jaedong? Just let it go man.
I don't give one damn about what he thinks about Jaedong. I found the article misleading via the title, cliche via the content, disjointed via the topics, his criteria skewed via his comparisons, and that it'd be better found in Blogs instead of the Broodwar section.
Get your head out of his ass if you don't think he's worthy of critique.
On October 11 2009 12:14 Yamoth wrote:
Wow, the Jaedong fanboys really come out in trove and tear you to shred over this article. I think your biggest problem is the term you use. I don't think the term charisma was the right choice. I think the word you are trying to use here is "impact" or "revolutionary (yea, I went there)". If I read this correctly, the biggest point you are trying to make is that while you like Jaedong can't really be considered a hero not so much as he doesn't have the charisma, the skill, or mechanic. The reason you would pick Bisu over Jaedong was because Jaedong didn't bring the zerg out of the dark age like what Bisu did. Jaedong can't be considered a hero because in his time zerg don't need saving nor did he reign over his throne as the undisputed absolute best of this time. I mean if you mention any of the so called hero named by Helvetica, most sc fans can immediately recall exactly what is it that make them famous. I can't for the life of me recall any game played by Jaedong that would mark a major turning point in starcraft.
So until he can without a shadow of a doubt be consider a favorite in a BoX again the likes of Biso and Flash or drastically change the meta game of starcraft. He can't be considered a "Hero" by the Doc standard.
If this were the case, Flash would be a Hero for revolutionizing TvP, bringing Terrans out of their worst position in history (He was the single shining beacon of terran during Taek Bang), etc etc. He specifically called his criteria an 'it' factor. I don't disagree, but I don't think it's article worthy.
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DoctorHelvetica, your article was a great read and sparked some interesting and opionated arguments which were a fun read as well.
My favorite paragraph from the comments was definitely:
On October 11 2009 04:26 QibingZero wrote:
Fantasy remains extremely overhyped, largely due to his status as SKT's terran and Boxer/oov successor. He's not the best terran in the world - Flash is. I don't even think that's an argument. Also, I don't really see fantasy as cocky. I see him as a young player influenced heavily by his teachers (and who wouldn't be considering who they are) who is incredibly unreliable when games don't go as planned.
Not only do I agree with Qibing here, but I would seriously say that even Leta has shown better overall performance and more evolving gameplay (think tvz) than Fantasy.
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Really great article enjoyed every word of it and I can relate with your story at the end, as I am sure many can.
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EPT
