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On October 18 2009 19:34 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +
I was expecting people to comment on memories of the older players, discuss SC2 and what will happen to BW when it comes out, and talk about the growth/changes in the foreign scene.
BORING. We only do that here once every other day... So you weren't expecting critique? Maybe its just me who feels the "derailing" of your thread was massively exaggerated, which is disconcerting.
Well I was disappointed the entire conversation went toward the Bisu/Jaedong thing which I didn't feel was a large part of the article. Aside from the "good article" posts by the people with like 8 total post account I felt like no one really liked this article.
I'm not ashamed of it like i am of "On Fire" but I'm not going to lie; i take criticism really badly. I work on it though and if I'm going to progress as a writer it needs to be done.
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The basis for ranking someone for the S class is dependent on so many factors that it almost has to be subjective to a person's views. Not only do you have to put into consideration the skill/race status, map balance, and meta game, but pro-league teams status and popularity also jumps in the picture.
Jaedong does well; he is an amazing player. No one can deny that. But in comparison to the past "legends", would ANY pro team ever have thought of giving up Oov, Savior, Nada through contract negotiation. It could very well be the status of the management playing an effect, but remember that no other team had a bid on Jaedong. So how much do you attribute it to management, and how much do attribute to the fact that teams see so many talents that they do not feel the need to invest in a monster like Jaedong. (Boxer doesn't count, he started his own team)
I think the easiest way to base evaluations on is Starleagues. When you add in charisma, talent, and other subjective variables, and discuss the "stardom" of the player, there is sometimes no way to reach agreement. In that light, Jaedong having as many SL's (not including GOM, jus cuz its not sanctioned and some players dont participate, no other reason) as Bisu, would probably put him right next to him. I dont see any reason not to.
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Not saying Bisu > Jaedong
Not saying he isn't in the S-Class
Jaedong is the best player since sAviOr
He is not a hero to me. I do not see him as the face of BroodWar. If you do I will not contest that. He is a hero to many. Not to me. That is all. That is what the article means. Trying to argue against that is idiotic, you cannot make me like Jaedong the same way I like sAviOr.
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On October 18 2009 19:13 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2009 17:10 siv00 wrote:
Jaedong's play in the finals of MSL/OSL was disappointing and he has lost his lethal countenance.
He's going to underperform, slump, drop out of both leagues and cease to be relevant. This feels like troll-bait, but on the off-chance you're serious, I'll give a quick reply: Jaedong was not in the MSL finals. In the semi-finals he was beaten by Calm - either by fluke or by masterful display of smart ZvZ or both. In the OSL finals he destroyed Yarnc, after destroying fantasy in the semifinals. Jaedong's only poor performance "recently" was the PL finals where he went 0-3 against 1) fantasy (closest thing he has to a direct rival atm), 2) his own inexplicable 12-hatch and 3) a "strategic play" from the SKT think-tank that, to quote fantasy, "anyone could have executed". In PL this year, he's only had a chance to play a single game (which he won). In short, what are you talking about? I'll grant that there are now Zergs (Calm, EffOrt) playing much closer to Jaedong's level than at any time previously, but smart money says that - like the Maestro before him - Jaedong's going to have to be knocked off his pedestal and sat on a couple times before he "slumps" for more than, say, two weeks. I don't even like Jaedong, but he is that good. If he doesn't make at least the Ro8 in both leagues, I will be highly, amazingly, and in all other ways, surprised.
Semantics, and it's possible to be disappointed in his play even when he wins as was the case with his set against fantasy. It was much more a case of fantasy choking than of Jaedong playing amazingly.
Also it's not that hard to make the RO8 in the OSL if you're being seeded into the RO16. I do not expect him to make the finals again, at any rate. Although it seems like Jaedong doesn't need his A-game to beat someone like Kal, I wouldn't favor him in a BoX against any S-class player anymore.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
I will talk for myself, i felt strong inappreciation of Jaedongs skill, achievements and position in all time greats legacy, fueled by strong anti-JD comments, like he isn't a favorite over couple of people, like fantasy, and is just nothing special with no "IT". He's easily the most incredible gamer of our era and a true hero with a lot of "IT", that you could strongly feel at his peaks, like at the end of Winners league when he was a god rivalling peaks of bonjwas, nobody else mattered.
I do understand people(fans) who admire JD skill, but like Bisu better, and, consciously or not, want to bring down JD's importance and achievements, i felt this myself when Bisu was dominating and JD was losing a lot. But this suits comments, regular threads better, not huge articles like this with a lot of time and effort put in. This feeling kind of ruined everything for me, since i'm such a fan of JD and he's the greatest sc player of all time for me, instead of relaxing and enjoying the article i feel, like i want to argue with some points.
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On October 18 2009 19:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2009 19:34 keV. wrote:
I was expecting people to comment on memories of the older players, discuss SC2 and what will happen to BW when it comes out, and talk about the growth/changes in the foreign scene.
BORING. We only do that here once every other day... So you weren't expecting critique? Maybe its just me who feels the "derailing" of your thread was massively exaggerated, which is disconcerting. Well I was disappointed the entire conversation went toward the Bisu/Jaedong thing which I didn't feel was a large part of the article. Aside from the "good article" posts by the people with like 8 total post account I felt like no one really liked this article. I'm not ashamed of it like i am of "On Fire" but I'm not going to lie; i take criticism really badly. I work on it though and if I'm going to progress as a writer it needs to be done.
Why are you ashamed of On Fire?
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On October 18 2009 20:13 siv00 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2009 19:13 Musoeun wrote:On October 18 2009 17:10 siv00 wrote:
Jaedong's play in the finals of MSL/OSL was disappointing and he has lost his lethal countenance.
He's going to underperform, slump, drop out of both leagues and cease to be relevant. This feels like troll-bait, but on the off-chance you're serious, I'll give a quick reply: Jaedong was not in the MSL finals. In the semi-finals he was beaten by Calm - either by fluke or by masterful display of smart ZvZ or both. In the OSL finals he destroyed Yarnc, after destroying fantasy in the semifinals. Jaedong's only poor performance "recently" was the PL finals where he went 0-3 against 1) fantasy (closest thing he has to a direct rival atm), 2) his own inexplicable 12-hatch and 3) a "strategic play" from the SKT think-tank that, to quote fantasy, "anyone could have executed". In PL this year, he's only had a chance to play a single game (which he won). In short, what are you talking about? I'll grant that there are now Zergs (Calm, EffOrt) playing much closer to Jaedong's level than at any time previously, but smart money says that - like the Maestro before him - Jaedong's going to have to be knocked off his pedestal and sat on a couple times before he "slumps" for more than, say, two weeks. I don't even like Jaedong, but he is that good. If he doesn't make at least the Ro8 in both leagues, I will be highly, amazingly, and in all other ways, surprised. Semantics, and it's possible to be disappointed in his play even when he wins as was the case with his set against fantasy. It was much more a case of fantasy choking than of Jaedong playing amazingly. Also it's not that hard to make the RO8 in the OSL if you're being seeded into the RO16. I do not expect him to make the finals again, at any rate. Although it seems like Jaedong doesn't need his A-game to beat someone like Kal, I wouldn't favor him in a BoX against any S-class player anymore.
It appears someone is jealous because Bisu got knocked out by Shine in Ro36. 
Jaedong is favourite against anyone right now, except maybe Flash.
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On October 18 2009 20:18 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2009 20:13 siv00 wrote:On October 18 2009 19:13 Musoeun wrote:On October 18 2009 17:10 siv00 wrote:
Jaedong's play in the finals of MSL/OSL was disappointing and he has lost his lethal countenance.
He's going to underperform, slump, drop out of both leagues and cease to be relevant. This feels like troll-bait, but on the off-chance you're serious, I'll give a quick reply: Jaedong was not in the MSL finals. In the semi-finals he was beaten by Calm - either by fluke or by masterful display of smart ZvZ or both. In the OSL finals he destroyed Yarnc, after destroying fantasy in the semifinals. Jaedong's only poor performance "recently" was the PL finals where he went 0-3 against 1) fantasy (closest thing he has to a direct rival atm), 2) his own inexplicable 12-hatch and 3) a "strategic play" from the SKT think-tank that, to quote fantasy, "anyone could have executed". In PL this year, he's only had a chance to play a single game (which he won). In short, what are you talking about? I'll grant that there are now Zergs (Calm, EffOrt) playing much closer to Jaedong's level than at any time previously, but smart money says that - like the Maestro before him - Jaedong's going to have to be knocked off his pedestal and sat on a couple times before he "slumps" for more than, say, two weeks. I don't even like Jaedong, but he is that good. If he doesn't make at least the Ro8 in both leagues, I will be highly, amazingly, and in all other ways, surprised. Semantics, and it's possible to be disappointed in his play even when he wins as was the case with his set against fantasy. It was much more a case of fantasy choking than of Jaedong playing amazingly. Also it's not that hard to make the RO8 in the OSL if you're being seeded into the RO16. I do not expect him to make the finals again, at any rate. Although it seems like Jaedong doesn't need his A-game to beat someone like Kal, I wouldn't favor him in a BoX against any S-class player anymore. It appears someone is jealous because Bisu got knocked out by Shine in Ro36. Jaedong is favourite against anyone right now, except maybe Flash.
I don't really like Bisu, just his mannerisms. This is going to be Flash's season.
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On October 18 2009 20:15 Magic84 wrote:
I will talk for myself, i felt strong inappreciation of Jaedongs skill, achievements and position in all time greats legacy, fueled by strong anti-JD comments, like he isn't a favorite over couple of people, like fantasy, and is just nothing special with no "IT". He's easily the most incredible gamer of our era and a true hero with a lot of "IT", that you could strongly feel at his peaks, like at the end of Winners league when he was a god rivalling peaks of bonjwas, nobody else mattered.
I do understand people(fans) who admire JD skill, but like Bisu better, and, consciously or not, want to bring down JD's importance and achievements, i felt this myself when Bisu was dominating and JD was losing a lot. But this suits comments, regular threads better, not huge articles like this with a lot of time and effort put in. This feeling kind of ruined everything for me, since i'm such a fan of JD and he's the greatest sc player of all time for me, instead of relaxing and enjoying the article i feel, like i want to argue with some points.
Saying I think FantaSy could beat him in a series game is not a strong anti-JD comment.
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Great article! I love how people imediately start ripping it apart because there might not have been enough mention towards their favourite player, or they think they could do it better.
Well maybe you people should try writing an article that clearly took a long time and discussed most of SC's biggest and most remembered playes.
Stop trying to find the little problems in things and just appreciate hard and GOOD work when it comes along.
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On October 19 2009 00:08 FantomX wrote:
Great article! I love how people imediately start ripping it apart because there might not have been enough mention towards their favourite player, or they think they could do it better.
Well maybe you people should try writing an article that clearly took a long time and discussed most of SC's biggest and most remembered playes.
Stop trying to find the little problems in things and just appreciate hard and GOOD work when it comes along.
So people shouldn't be allowed to criticize something unless they can do it better?
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amazing read.
thats about all that needs to be said.
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Just found this article. Great write-up. Maybe due to my bias, I appreciate that you include Bisu so thoroughly in this, even though we all know he is not bonjwa.
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I think that what you wanted the discussion to be based around is highly contrary to what the topic at hand was about: if you write an article discussing the past greats of Broodwar and have certain views about why they are the your heroes of Starcraft, I don't expect anyone to write about what the future of SC2 is going to be about. We're going to challenge your view of "heroes" and your criteria, assess your consistency in choosing your heroes, and debate about why people are or are not on your list.
That is undoubtedly the essence of what your article was about: why certain people were your heroes. I don't know how you expect people to talk about anything else. It arrived at Bisu vs Jaedong because that was the only point where most people can actually have any dissenting opinions. Who is going to question that Boxer was undoubtedly an SC god? That sAviOr absolutely dominated and built the macro zerg? That iloveoov was the one of the best Terrans of his era and brought about a macrorevolution?
If you wanted to write about the future of SC2, progamers, and the foreign community, you should have written about what the current outlook of SC2 by the community/e-Sports scene was, took a various look at what progamers have pledged their allegiance to Broodwar instead of SC2, and what current progamers think about SC2 having played at BlizzCon and whatnot. There are plenty of interviews and vods about such. You could've discussed upcoming prospects for the foreign community in the e-Sports scene, like talking about Ret (I know he hadn't officially reported that he was going to Korea yet, but that's why I said prospects), or any number of potential top foreigners.
But you based your article on the "heroes" of Broodwar, and you must have on some level wanted people to think about your opinions: otherwise, you wouldn't have written this article at all. So, I don't find it strange that people are talking about your picks at all. I'm sure a lot of people believe it's in fact, subjective, but in many ways some of your picks just aren't consistent, even with your own subjective criteria, as with CaSy, who you included because simply Plexa wrote a brilliant article on it. So unless you clearly stated that all of your reasoning comes from whatever player touches your heart, irregardless of anything else, such as stats, revolutionary strategies, dominance, or whatever, there are going to be people criticizing who you picked. You can't just hide behind a shield of "subjectivity" when by all accounts, the people you picked have some semblance of objective reasoning.
Yes, it is a good article in general, although not the greatest. After all, it has so far sparked more than 10 pages of discussion. I didn't enjoy it too much myself; the language was too superfluous. But I think for your intended audience and what you wrote, it was a good article.
EDIT: And I disagree with your own reasoning when you keep saying there was no "point" in writing this article. There clearly is: for you to give your opinion on who you think have been significant figures in the history of Broodwar. Heck, 75% of the article is about the "heroes" themselves and what moments crowned them as heroic. There was a point, whether you want to admit it or not.
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On October 18 2009 20:17 siv00 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2009 19:44 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 18 2009 19:34 keV. wrote:
I was expecting people to comment on memories of the older players, discuss SC2 and what will happen to BW when it comes out, and talk about the growth/changes in the foreign scene.
BORING. We only do that here once every other day... So you weren't expecting critique? Maybe its just me who feels the "derailing" of your thread was massively exaggerated, which is disconcerting. Well I was disappointed the entire conversation went toward the Bisu/Jaedong thing which I didn't feel was a large part of the article. Aside from the "good article" posts by the people with like 8 total post account I felt like no one really liked this article. I'm not ashamed of it like i am of "On Fire" but I'm not going to lie; i take criticism really badly. I work on it though and if I'm going to progress as a writer it needs to be done. Why are you ashamed of On Fire?
It was rushed, poorly written, and I could have done better but had it released anyway.
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Really nice read
I certainly agree that things right now aren't as epic as they were before. but we still have our occasionals peaks of exitement, mainly PL finals, Winners league finals, OSL groups selections (Zergs picks circus) and the whole clash between fantasy and JD in the two last OSLs.
I also have to mention ACE's matchs last season, oversky made ZvZ fun to watch.
also thanks for linking the FE for each players, i missed a couple of those.
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Man this great writeup is turning into a fanboy war >_>
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On October 18 2009 19:03 Letmelose wrote:
Demanding Jaedong to win people over by doing something he is not known for is such a childish ploy. On October 18 2009 19:03 Letmelose wrote:
Jaedong has been doing his thing for years now, and it's up to you to appreciate it or not. Just don't blame it on Jaedong if you can't appreciate him fully. No one expects Jaedong to try to "win people over" nor blames him for other people not acknowledging him. None of the previous bonjwas actively promoted their public image - they focused on their gaming and their success brought along the positive attention.
It is up to the fans and the media to find and spread stuff about these players. Notions of their play styles and personalities.
It is harder now because there are more s-class and a-class players that divide up the popularity and attention. Imagine if Flash and some of the a-class were absent from pro SC. Likely, remaining players would have gotten more coverage (ex. camera time). The current rivalry between Jaedong and Bisu might have been hyped up, so that it became viewed, as great as the rivalry between Boxer and Yellow.
On October 18 2009 19:03 Letmelose wrote:
If Jaedong hasn't won you over by now, it probably means that it just isn't meant to be. Actually, the passing of time can easily sway a person's opinion.
Maybe after a while, people would make better comparisons of today's s-class. They might think that Jaedong was enough above Flash and Bisu, that he deserved a place among the "great" players.
Maybe in a few years, Jaedong will win 2 more OSLs and earn a platinum mouse. That would likely make the argument for his status as a bonjwa, irrefutable.
Also, what if most of the SC community, came to see Jaedong as a bonjwa?
The regular attention (discussions, pictures, greatest replays, etc.) to Jaedong might influence previously unconvinced viewers to think/say, "I was wrong, this guy is the greatest player of all time"
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It's incredibly difficult to catch on to what makes a player truly great, and especially so if you don't have the luxury doing so in retrospect. It took a lot of people forever to figure out that Iloveoov was much more than a monstrous macro machine, and that July's aggressiveness did not necessarily equate to low economy play. Nowadays people simply write Jaedong off as a perfect multitasking beast who simply overpowers fellow gamers through pure mechanics perfected by hours of practice. Of course, as with all generalizations, there's some truth to the statement, but it's quite surprising how many people are willing to downplay his worth as a gamer because he is not "innovative" enough or because he was somehow "furtunate" to play in this era.
Jaedong's style is actually more varied than most of the zerg players out there, and despite that, he is somehow viewed as a one note player because of his unmissable mechanical skill. He has been the representative of the zerg race through the good times and the bad after Savior's downfall, and yet some people think he was lucky with his successes. When people start asking Jaedong to revive the drama Savior produced, or to stop winning in a zerg dominated era (because they are tired of zerg versus zerg), or to start doing innovations that replace his mechanical skill as his most potent weaponry, I start to wonder if they are ready to take him for what he is at all.
It's like dismissing Boxer in his prime for his awesome versus zerg skills, and claiming that his micromanagement were simply abuses unthought of by the designers that compensated for his overall weakness for the game overall. Jaedong has a lot to bring to the table, and if people can only spot his most visible assets, that's their problem, not Jaedong's. That was what I was trying to say. I'm never one to claim that I understand the full scope of Jaedong's magnificence, but I know for sure that NO player in the scene right now can survive such arduous demands by perfecting mechanics alone. Jaedong probably has more depth to him than most gamers out there, yet everyone is happy to conclude with "Jaedong only wins because he clicks faster than others". It's just like the MSL commentators giving up on how Jaedong managed to defeat Bisu on Blue Storm after serenating Bisu praise after praise throughout the game, and concluding the game can only be explained as the inexplicable durability of the zerg race in the late game. It's not missing just because you cannot explain it. There's more to Jaedong than most of us acknowledge, and it's our shortcomings for not getting it fully.
Jaedong already is rewritting records, and while it's a stretch to say that what some of the more extreme followers of him say, it's even more absurd to downplay his legend when it already stands toe to toe with the likes of Savior. "Bonjwa" is such a vague term, and it means so many things to different people. Just because Jaedong does not meet your standards for "bonjwa" for whatever reasons, does not mean that he is not worthy of being compared to the past legends. If
you feel like there's something "missing" that makes him great, perhaps it's up to you to find it (or just let it be), not for him the create. Why must he win a Platinum Mouse for approval from the fans? Denying Jaedong of ANY title he wants if he actually accomplishes such a feat would require serious mental retardation or denial borderlining psychosis.
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O god what a thread.
Going to actually read it thoroughly in a week or so...
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EPT
