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On February 14 2010 14:52 Chef wrote:
The biggest issue this map has right now is that it gets very laggy late game. I'm not interested in making the changes, but I think if someone could figure out a way to make units transfer only once it would be okay. Right now units never disappear when they die, but if they disappeared after dying twice (once on the original side, and once on the other side) it would probably fix lag issues and absurd army size issues. Easier said than done though.
For stuff only transfering twice, I think using hero units with stats changed to same as base unit would fix that. Triggers the death of a regular unit to create a "hero" regular unit, but no trigger of death or "hero" version. Only drawkback I see is that there isn't any worker hero, so those wouldn't transfer anymore.
Anyway, tried it today we a few friends for the first time. Quite fun, thanks for the map 
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On February 14 2010 16:44 CynanMachae wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2010 14:52 Chef wrote:
The biggest issue this map has right now is that it gets very laggy late game. I'm not interested in making the changes, but I think if someone could figure out a way to make units transfer only once it would be okay. Right now units never disappear when they die, but if they disappeared after dying twice (once on the original side, and once on the other side) it would probably fix lag issues and absurd army size issues. Easier said than done though.
For stuff only transfering twice, I think using hero units with stats changed to same as base unit would fix that. Triggers the death of a regular unit to create a "hero" regular unit, but no trigger of death or "hero" version. Only drawkback I see is that there isn't any worker hero, so those wouldn't transfer anymore. Anyway, tried it today we a few friends for the first time. Quite fun, thanks for the map
Heroes have all tech researched by default, so it would be a big problem.
I suggest that we transfer minerals for destroyed static defense/buildings so there is more incentive to do so.
Also, it would be nice to get rid of the reset penalty and just use a flying spawner; you can simulate a flying spawner already just by loading that civilian into a shuttle or dropship anyways as BW moves the location in the same way even when the unit is in the transport.
To make units only transfer once, use the death counts for the corresponding heroes (and alan turret/duke turret/jump gate or whatever to keep track of valkyries or workers) to keep track of how many that were transferred. For every transfer, add 1 DC. If DC is not zero, do not transfer and decrement DC by one.
Also, you can comsat for your ally. Which is rather awesome, but imba.
EDIT> Strong build orders for this gametype, regardless of map:
-Protoss forge FE
-Sair/reaver
-4 Gate 2 Archon
-1 Scout rush, force early hydras/turrets/armory and screw up BO; if scout gets killed enemy gets a nigh-useless unit
+1 speedzeal push
-Siege expand
-2 port wraith (do not use if opponent ally is Terran)
-Deep 6
-2 fact vultures with mines
-6 fact timing push
-Any hydralisk build if opponent ally is not Z
-Ultraling if opponent ally is not Z and you can keep your defilers alive
-9pool speed
-3 hatch muta
-Scourge-heavy builds
-Infested terran bombing if holy world ever gets ported
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I can't believe I missed this the first time around. This sounds very cool.
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Does anyone know if a successful scourge/infested Terran attack counts as a "death"? The trigger is only based on death count, so that will determine if scourge always get transferred, or only do so if they're killed before hitting.
I had originally missed the transfer-with-tech version of the map -- not sure if I like that or not. Certainly would make killing defilers/HTs more useful.
--oberon
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What? Transfer with tech is what made this fun. :[
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I was just answering Oberon's question  .
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Oh, my bad I didn't see his post.
I had originally missed the transfer-with-tech version of the map -- not sure if I like that or not. Certainly would make killing defilers/HTs more useful.
I think it can go either way, but it is nice to have siege tanks that unsiege if only for the sake of keeping players from complaining. Overall it's not a bad thing, and it makes the map pretty dynamic.
There are problems with his map that were never fixed (iirc)... because he added colours, he also screwed up unit values (so Academys cost like 200 minerals and crap...).
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On February 15 2010 01:56 Chef wrote:Oh, my bad I didn't see his post. Show nested quote +I had originally missed the transfer-with-tech version of the map -- not sure if I like that or not. Certainly would make killing defilers/HTs more useful. I think it can go either way, but it is nice to have siege tanks that unsiege if only for the sake of keeping players from complaining. Overall it's not a bad thing, and it makes the map pretty dynamic. There are problems with his map that were never fixed (iirc)... because he added colours, he also screwed up unit values (so Academys cost like 200 minerals and crap...).
The only thing I really care about is the triggerlist. So, I'll investigate that.
--oberon
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He uses 'give units to player' and an island in the middle of the map to transfer units I think. So if player 1 lost a marine with stim upgraded, a marine is created for player 1 on that island, then given control to player 3 (player 1's ally's opponent), then moved to the civilian.
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On February 15 2010 02:06 Chef wrote:
He uses 'give units to player' and an island in the middle of the map to transfer units I think. So if player 1 lost a marine with stim upgraded, a marine is created for player 1 on that island, then given control to player 3 (player 1's ally's opponent), then moved to the civilian.
That doesn't actually seem to be the case. Oddly, his triggers for unit giving are the same as yours. Maybe the version in the OP is old?
Anyway, the algorithm you suggest seems reasonable. I may just do that myself. Other things his edit has, that might be useful:
-Prevent creating a nydus on the other map. Yes, your units will blow up if they go through it, but in the current version you can still create the exit.
-Prevent MCing of civilians causing one player to have multiple.
-Some attempt (I think?) to end the game if one player leaves/doesn't exist. I'm not sure if his triggers will work, but this is annoying in the current version -- that if one player leaves, his team doesn't automatically lose.
--oberon
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Canada11607 Posts
Glad to see this picked up again, I was afraid it had fallen by the wayside. Such an epic idea.
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On February 15 2010 02:06 Chef wrote:
He uses 'give units to player' and an island in the middle of the map to transfer units I think. So if player 1 lost a marine with stim upgraded, a marine is created for player 1 on that island, then given control to player 3 (player 1's ally's opponent), then moved to the civilian.
Mmhmm correct
And yeah, some unit values are wrong
Haven't bothered to fix it yet but it's a simple fix
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Calgary26003 Posts
Any chance of making every other unit switch? Or put in a randomizer than chances as the game progresses? Because last time I played there was the issue that units can only be created, never die.
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On February 16 2010 05:42 Chill wrote:
Any chance of making every other unit switch? Or put in a randomizer than chances as the game progresses? Because last time I played there was the issue that units can only be created, never die.
Yeah, in bughouse you start with a chessboard each, and that's it. You can't add more units to the game like in BW. Was this a gameplay issue (game never ends, becomes too crowded, etc.) or an engine issue (engine bogs down)? Or a problem for another reason?
The closest thing I can come up with to a "solution" for this is to have more islands in the no-man's-land, with crystals/eggs/whatever. Every time you get a unit transferred to you, lose a thingy. No more thingies -> no more units. That would put a hard cap on transfers. None too elegant, however. You could get slightly more complex, where every time your opponent gets a transfer you get a crystal back (in effect, one of theirs becomes yours) which would allow transfers forever, but you could never have received more than X units more than your opponent. Not sure that's better.
On February 16 2010 05:26 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 02:06 Chef wrote:
He uses 'give units to player' and an island in the middle of the map to transfer units I think. So if player 1 lost a marine with stim upgraded, a marine is created for player 1 on that island, then given control to player 3 (player 1's ally's opponent), then moved to the civilian. Mmhmm correct And yeah, some unit values are wrong Haven't bothered to fix it yet but it's a simple fix
Do you have the latest version of your edition of the map? The one in this thread doesn't seem to have those triggers.
--oberon
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Canada7170 Posts
On February 15 2010 02:14 oberon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 02:06 Chef wrote:
He uses 'give units to player' and an island in the middle of the map to transfer units I think. So if player 1 lost a marine with stim upgraded, a marine is created for player 1 on that island, then given control to player 3 (player 1's ally's opponent), then moved to the civilian. That doesn't actually seem to be the case. Oddly, his triggers for unit giving are the same as yours. Maybe the version in the OP is old? Anyway, the algorithm you suggest seems reasonable. I may just do that myself. Other things his edit has, that might be useful: -Prevent creating a nydus on the other map. Yes, your units will blow up if they go through it, but in the current version you can still create the exit. -Prevent MCing of civilians causing one player to have multiple. -Some attempt (I think?) to end the game if one player leaves/doesn't exist. I'm not sure if his triggers will work, but this is annoying in the current version -- that if one player leaves, his team doesn't automatically lose. --oberon
Chef emailed me a version of the map that he was "pretty sure" was the most recent one. We never tested the one I uploaded so you could be right about the version being old. =[
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A really, really crude fix on the endgame mass unit problem is simply to not allow a player to receive units of his own race. Those just die. Clearly, this would mean that people at cross positions need to select different races, and random would be a silly thing to choose, so not optimal.
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Switch = RNG.
Have something like 16 offscreen lurker eggs with their own locations, and use 4 randomized switches and 16 condition statements. Each switch combination corresponds to 1 location, and if a lurker egg is there, then transfer the unit. You can kill the eggs as the game progresses to lower the chance of units transferring, with it reaching zero at some point later on (40 minutes?).
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EPT
