• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:40
CEST 15:40
KST 22:40
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On6Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5TL.net Map Contest #21 - Finalists4Team TLMC #5: Vote to Decide Ladder Maps!0[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Mile High15
Community News
5.0.15 Balance Patch Notes (Live version)47$2,500 WardiTV TL Map Contest Tournament 150Stellar Fest: StarCraft II returns to Canada10Weekly Cups (Sept 22-28): MaxPax double, Zerg wins, PTR12BSL Season 217
StarCraft 2
General
5.0.15 Balance Patch Notes (Live version) Stellar Fest: StarCraft II returns to Canada SC2 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes + Sept 22nd update Had to smile :) Weekly Cups (Sept 22-28): MaxPax double, Zerg wins, PTR
Tourneys
Stellar Fest Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $2,500 WardiTV TL Map Contest Tournament 15 LANified! 37: Groundswell, BYOC LAN, Nov 28-30 2025 Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 493 Quick Killers Mutation # 492 Get Out More Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight
Brood War
General
Thoughts on rarely used units ASL20 General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash On JaeDongs ASL Struggles & Perseverance Any rep analyzer that shows resources situation?
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro8 Day 4 [ASL20] Ro8 Day 3 3D!Community Brood War Super Cup №3 BSL Team Wars - Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta I am doing this better than progamers do. Simple Questions, Simple Answers Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy)
Other Games
General Games
Dawn of War IV Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Liquipedia App: Now Covering SC2 and Brood War!
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final
Blogs
Mental Health In Esports: Wo…
TrAiDoS
[AI] Sorry, Chill, My Bad :…
Peanutsc
Try to reverse getting fired …
Garnet
[ASL20] Players bad at pi…
pullarius1
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2245 users

[A]Heartbreak Ridge TvP Side

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
Normal
Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-20 01:21:14
September 19 2009 08:58 GMT
#1
Heartbreak Ridge
[A] is for Article!



[image loading]



Table of Contents

+ Show Spoiler +

Using Crtl+F or Mac + F you can skip ahead instead of painfully scrolling through each section, be sure to include the [brackets].
    [l] Disclaimer
    [II] Why Heartbreak Ridge
    [III] Map Balance
    [IV] Change of View
    [V] Reality Check
    [VI] For Your Viewing Pleasure
    [VII] Back to the Future
    [VIII] KHAN Special
    [IX] The Others
    [X] Conclusion
    [XI] Thanks!



[l] Disclaimer:


+ Show Spoiler +
  • I am a D level Terran player.
  • I'm not claiming to be the expert on this map.
  • This is simply a detailed analysis done by a lower level player after watching and playing many games of this matchup.
  • Any criticism or correction in my analysis/understanding of a decision made by a better player is welcome
  • The game reviews will be biased in favor of well-known Terrans and Protoss'. The little trains that could that get rolled over by well-known players will not be so treated kindly.
  • My goal for this thread is a better understanding for myself and other Terran players on how this matchup should be played out on this map.
    .



[II] Why Heartbreak Ridge?



      I think its about time we all took a nice detailed look into this map, that for many Terrans has been a thorn in their side for vs Protoss. We'll focus on the pro level, which while is not, I understand not something to be copied mindlessly but read to understand why certain decisions were made and if they were, respectively at that time, right or wrong.



[III] Map Balance


      For starters I'll go on to the dreaded subject of map balance, which has with all controversial maps, been a sensitive topic:
[image loading]

       When I first saw this record, after my many frustrations on this map I scoffed and said that's obviously not a large enough sample, unwilling accept to that a map The Great D Terran such as I was having so much difficulty with vs those Iccup Scrubs, was balanced! So after seeing this balanced number I went to ask the winners, on the Terran side, what is their secret to victory on this map. This is what I was faced with:



[IV] Normal View
[image loading]




Monokeros' View
[image loading]

All of the quotes are referring to the Protoss who lost, not to the Terran player



[V] Reality Check




       After my extremely, judgmental overview of players, which, considering the desperate position I was in, very ungrateful. I painfully came to terms with (at last) no matter how much worse these Terrans or Protosses are from the best of their race, they're a lot better than I am going to be anytime soon. Realizing this I sit back and watch starting with my favorite.



Flash - Lee Young Ho - 이영호



[image loading]            [image loading]
      (T)Flash      VS       (P)Jaehoon
+ Show Spoiler +

      Let's first of all take into account that this is during off-season and in my opinion this places both the players not at their best, but either way the difference in their skills is still well known to those who frequently watch Starcraft matches. I won't be going to quite extensive detail on this match I'll stick to observing each players builds, their decision-making and using the word capitalize a lot, I like that word.
      This match plays out at the start with a simple FD by Flash and a 2 gate goon pressure with Jaehoon. After this initial pressure we see Jaehoon is behind, Flash's expo has started up before his with minimal scv losses and only 2 tanks to jaehoons 6 goons and 3 Zealots. At this point Jaehoon is behind but his expo is safe from a push thanks to his the costly pressure.

      Now skipping the details and moving on ahead we reaches what confuses me, after this is Jaehoon opts for 2 base arbiter. He is currently very behind in tech, eco and unit count. So he throws caution to wind against Flash, a clearly better player, and decides to go heavy teach after such a setback. Flash, with his amazing star sense, knowing he's ahead immediately moves out to capitalize on his advantage before Jaehoon's now running expo kicks in. While this I assume was unknown to Flash the expo had already 'kicked in', but in the form of arbiter tech, setting him behind on unit count and sealing the game.


Take 2


      Out of Flash's 3 wins on Heartbreak (and one loss to Bisu), I chose his win vs Pusan instead of the GOM TV match and the associated VOD is currently sealed away within the depths of GOM's video archive.

[image loading]            [image loading]
(T)Flash      VS       (P)Pusan
+ Show Spoiler +

      Not to take away any credit from Pusan, but lets face it he wasn't the shining star he used to be, and during the Summer of 2009 this didn't change. What also must be taken into consideration is the map is still relatively new in June, so all the plays haven't been, fleshed or 'Flashed' out as to say.

Summary

It begins with Flash walling in and choosing siege expand, while Pusan pressures with one gate range, robo followed by a triple expansion. Pusan with his earlier pressure is ahead but fails to notice Flash's Starport in the corner of his main. Flash's harras allows him to take his 3rd and with his superior macromanagement, intelligent base design and Pusan's risky switch to carriers, take base after base until finally Pusan is weakened enough for him to go in for the kill.




[VI] For Your Viewing Pleasure

I enjoyed the game so much that I decided to do a full on battle report, I would be delighted if you partook in it otherwise the aforementioned summary will suffice for this article.

                                                      + Show Spoiler +

       Flash goes for a wall-in opting for a siege expand, with CC after making only two marines as apposed to his future, and I'm assuming better learned self of the future's FD with no wall, but ~6 marines. Pusan begins to pressure with a one gate range followed by robo and expand still all on one gate. With his pressure effective at a minor loss of one Dragoon and Flash being pressured to repair constantly, Pusan pulls back keeping a nice advantage. Flash unable to scout for any tech goes for ebay setting him back even more, then the screen pans down and we are shown the Starport Flash had started in the corner of his base.

[image loading]


      How Flash wins the game immediately becomes to me clear even after he is faced with a significant setback early on, which after watching am glad I reported in more detail then the Jaehoon game (because I respect Pusan as a player more than Jaehoon). Pusan follows up with getting his 3rd after adding only one gateway and 2 goons to his forces. His swiftness to capitalize on his earlier gained advantages in eco and now tech, he attempts to seal his victory with a seemingly safe expansion. Pusan unfortunately does not see the Starport in the corner of the base and simple sees the armory and is expecting a timed upgrade push from Flash after massing up.

[image loading]


      Confident that his eco advantage will allow him to reign supreme he plods on towards the inevitable. The dropship is out and the harrassing begins, first with Pusan's main. His lack of observers at the start of the drop seems to spell doom for Pusan but an obs pops out right when the vultures zip towards the probes, they would not dine tonight and simultaneously are denied by a pylon wall at the 3rd as well. The daamge was done though and Pusan for a short but crucial moment is running one base. Flash knowing now his damage was enough to allow him to expand safely, delaying and effectively decreasing the Pusan's stopping power of his 3rd, as Pusan was busy recovering.

[image loading]


      Currently only on 4gateways Pusan realizing that with the Starport up Flash is now slightly ahead on tech and goes for Stagate followed by the well recognized Arbiter Tribunal. With a few games of goon and vulture, cat & mouse and mine field laying followed by clearing Pusan expands AGAIN to the mineral only at 12 o'clock, after witnessing Flash's 3rd and being unable to deny or even delay it he opts to be one base ahead, typical Protoss. Flash's superiority in upgrades is displayed when Pusan attempts to use a control group of goons to clear a the mine field set up on the ridge adjacent to Flash's now running 3rd. Flash overcomes the group of goons with his vultures and the vultures now run free, and spring upon their prey, the probes transferring to Pusan's 4th. With nothing but a measly cannon to deny the vultures of their meal they reduce the probes numbers to a measly 4-5, a shot of Pusan shows his frustration, another setback, things were starting to look grim.

[image loading]


      Pumping Arbiters from Two Stargate Pusan prepares to finish this before he set back anymore by Flash's harass. While moving out with a group of Zealots and Dragoons along with a trusty Arbiter they move out to threaten Flash's 3rd base. Flash calls Pusan's bluff with a scan of his meager attack force and a dropship of 4 vultures on Pusan's preparations new expansion in the bottom right corner, adjacent to Flash's base, the plan was foiled. Fed up with this constant battle to defend his advantage Pusan moves in to cripple Flash's army and hopefully his 3rd before he suffers anymore damage from the dreaded Dropship and Vultures. Flash's position on the ridge is too strong and Pusan is forced to allow the madness to continue.

[image loading]

      After throwing a few zealots and a pair of goons the expansion is finally secure, when, suddenly Pusan does to me, the unthinkable he makes four Stargates in a row along with a fleet beacon at his 3rd, where did he have the money for all of this was he this far behind in his macro? Or was he betting all-in on his still remaining advantage, whether the risk was necessary or not Pusan pursues with determination his every so slightly fading victory. Flash moves out with his ball of 2-1 tanks, vultures, goliaths, and dreaded EMP-laden Vessels. Pusan sensing weakness goes to strike down this expansion, if he secures that base even his carriers won't save him. Unfortunately, a triple EMP on Pusan's forces sends him fleeing and in his retreat the screen show his Stargate's flickering, not flashing, as Pusan would have none of that.

[image loading]


       Once again Pusan moves out for blood, and this time with Flash's army defending his fledging 4th things were looking good for Pusan, hopes were high as he pressed forward with, images of burning factories and even a possible GG. He is once again set back by a cleverly placed supply depot and barracks the time it would take him to break that with his army would give Flash time to counter his army. He is once again denied revenge, and we see Flash is prepared for the dreaded recall with turrets lining his base. The Stargates flicked ominously, will they pay off? Probes from Pusan's now dry main transfer to his distant 5th. Flash is sitting comfortable on his now confirmed eco advantage, Pusan's only hope left lying in those flickering lights. Suddenly we are sent to Flash's base a recall in the corner of his base farm from factories and trapped by still mining SCVs, with well placed tanks and buildings, Pusan's recall goes to waste.

[image loading]


      All Pusan has left is a measly Dragoon force, a few Zealots fresh from his gateways and his Carriers. After the failed recall Flash smells a weakened prey and goes in for the kill. The massive 2-2 ball moves onward, onward to the carriers, EMPing and reducing all to blue goo and disintegration along the way.

[image loading]


      Flash scans the carriers, scoffs at their numbers and EMPs. A feeble stasis does nothing to slow the onslaught, the carriers poke out to delay the push but even with the ledge's LOS advantage, and his remaining goon force, Pusan is pushed back by reinforcements from Flash's main.

[image loading]


       He races to defend his mineral expo, but he is too late the probes are slaughtered in control groups another stasis appears to delay the inevitable, a blue spec appears in the upper right corner Flash's victory was in plain view. 4 tanks move in a finish off what is left of the probes final safe haven, Pusan's eco is in tatters his forces only his trusty arbiter and carriers. The ominous 3-2 on the tanks upgrades tolls the bells of the end.

[image loading]


[Indent] In a desperate attempt to return the pain of losing his expansions to Flash, Pusan moves out to destroy the mineral only. We witness a mass of goliath and charon-boosted missiles fill the air. A switch to Pusan's sweating face in contrast to Flash, calm and ready to end this charade. Pusan flailing in defiance of this loss scrambling to recover his expo goes to kill off Flash's corner base but is denied by quick repairs and massive goliath forces. Before the end we are given view through the eyes of the defeater and the defeated, the difference in eco is staggering, Flash low on minerals and true to his name Ultimate Weapon, while Pusan floundering for money his minerals trickling in.

[image loading]


      In Pusan's final breath he destroys Flash's CC in the upper right corner.

[image loading]


      Flash not even needing his whole army to fend off this threat splits his forces to end the game and kill of Pusan's expansions.

[image loading]


       As Pusan fights off the never-ending army of Goliaths, Vultures that had spelled his doom from the start finish off his last running expansion, and with no more money for interceptors Pusan types out.

[image loading]




[VII] Back to the Future



       After that, in my humble opinion, thrilling blast from the past and my obvious Flash fanboyism shining through, we return what now TvP on Heartbreak Ridge has been reduced to for Protoss.
2 Base Arbiter


[image loading]
            [image loading]
(T)UpMaGiC      VS       (P)Rock
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
            [image loading]
(T)Justin      VS       (P)Movie
+ Show Spoiler +


Combined Summary:
       I've decided to combine these two into one summary because the play out the same, albiet one longer than the other. I understand that theres four aren't the greatest, and some may argue they are the worst at this matchup. The fact remains that the Terrans recover from an earlier pressure and the Protoss taking his a lead a bit too far goes with a 2 Base Arbiter. The Terran capitalizes on this huge tech switch and pushes the natural and wins the game there, or as with the case of UpMaGic vs Rock the Terran gains a virtually permanent advantage that leads them to victory. Flash vs Jaehoon was also a 2 Base Arbiter game, but Flash get's his own article, and redundant redundancy is quite redundant.
Proxy Gate into Reaver


[image loading]            [image loading]
(T)fantasy      VS       (P)GuemChi
+ Show Spoiler +

Summary
       Guemchi Proxy Gate's fantasy, overextends himself with a cute cannon gets punished horribly, his proxy reaver is scouted thanks to
      (A)He traps his probe, like the champ he is, and has to build the support bay in his main without a robo bay. Which to fantasy's suprise magically appears when he pushes into Guemchi's defenseless main with his attack force.
      (B) Fantasy than using his superiour star sense goes to the obvious location of the proxy robo bay, defends the reaver harrass effortlessly and the game ends.

[image loading]            [image loading]
(T)fOrGG      VS       (P)Much
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/14807_fOrGG_vs_Much/vod

Summary
      Much showing his experience with age doesn't over-extend himself or give away his Proxy Reaver, unfortunately this is to no avail. fOrGG's clever base design and cute/clever Vulture Marine micro, sans mines holds off the proxy Gateway Pressure, leaving Much in the red.
       Capitalizing his triumph fOrGG adds a second factory and moves out making short work of the proxy followed by teasing the crowd with almost discovering the proxy robo. The reaver moves out to cause what would be expected TERRIBLE TERRIBLE damage to an undefended base, but the scarab god has and always will hate Much. After trading worker kills, fOrGG, with his trusty wraith comes out clearly ahead and finishes off our beloved CJ Uncle Toss.



[VIII] KHAN Special



       Yes this section title is a double entendre referring to Special Education and a Menu Special you would see in a restaurant. I think a separate section should be devoted to two of our beloved Dragons and Protosses from Samsung KHAN, Jangbi and Stork.

So I heard you play WoW....

      Whether the rumors were confirmed or just a fun little joke tossed around as an excuse for the current lackaluster play of one of the Golden Mouse possible, OSL Title-Holding, Dinosaur Toss. This game is one that chills me to the core and was one that I laughed my ass off all the way through. Both of the players having their mouths hanging open in their profile picture didn't really help when I was loading the VOD.

[image loading]
            [image loading]
(T)Shine      VS       (P)Stork
+ Show Spoiler +

Summary
      Rather then do a legitimate summary I'd like to post a few pictures focus on part of the VOD, because as they say pictures speak a thousand words. Of course I'll keep on going afterwards just to emphasize on the hilarity of my discover.

+ Show Spoiler [Very Video//Image Heavy] +

[image loading]

Stork shows us some amazing micro...but back on the farm...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVs62UFlxKI&feature=player_embedded#t=11m29s
Shine could have an advantage after that I may or MAY NOT be right

Stork once again showing us some amazing micro in the form of Jangbi-esque storms crushing Shine's push...except for one minor problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVs62UFlxKI&feature=player_embedded#t=19m43s

      So what I learned from that match was, if your PvT training partners are (T)firebathero,(T)Miracle, and (T)FrOzean, and you apparently play WoW, this is the result. Not to forget when Shine went over to KTF before he retired to be a coach he was coached like no other.

Carriers and Jangbi
A deadly combination...for who?

[image loading]            [image loading]
(T)Mind      VS       (P)Jangbi
+ Show Spoiler +


Summary
       Let me tell you a story, I used to play protoss and I loved Jangbi and his storms, torn between love and hate was I when he defeated my Terran heroes with his brilliant psionic displays. So I vowed to be like Jangbi, do what Jangbi does, I soon discovered to my dislike. Jangbi does Carriers. Then Jangbi gets done because of said Carriers. What is the first thing, to my pleasant surprise, I see when I clicked on the link to the VOD?
Warning:
The Following Contains Hate Against Jangbi, Samsung KHAN Fan Viewer Discretion is Advised

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Curse you Jangbi, and the Carrier you rode in on

[image loading]


For once I agree with Youtube Comments, and it looks I am not alone

Oh you still wanted a Summary?
       Well I gritted my teeth and watched the match, the youtube comments you just saw just about summed it up. Jangbi was violated by vulture harass while using Carriers. Of course credit goes to Mind for taking down Jangbi, Carriers or not. Let's finish this up.


[IX] The Others




The following get a special mention for sticking to their guns and doing a typical slow-pushing, Ninja Turtle-Terran™, war of attrition that we un-innovative low level players know, understand, use and love.

[image loading]            [image loading]
(T)Leta      VS       (P)Reach
+ Show Spoiler +

Summary:
[image loading]


That about sums up the whole game Leta's 1 Fact Port is to be feared.

[image loading]            
[image loading]

(T)Light      VS       (P)Daezang
+ Show Spoiler +

Summary:
      Daezang goes for a proxy, it gets stuff although he doesn't tech hard and plays it safe with observers after Light controls the whole game with repetitive harass keeping his probe count super low, not allowing him a chance to recover.

[image loading]            [image loading]
(T)Light      VS       (P)Pure
+ Show Spoiler +

Summary:
       Light once again shows amazing control of the game using harass, taking the lead and sticking with it until the end.
Special Mention
At Least your PvZ is good...oh wait......

[image loading]            [image loading]
(T)Mind      VS       (P)Best

       I devote this section to the little SKT1 Protoss that could, Best who gets Two-Facted into the ground, allowing a 3-1 victory for Wemade over SKT1. His recent appearance with his teams B-Teamers on Proleague Map Tests is made a little clearer.
+ Show Spoiler +

Summary:
Two Factories > Two Gate Range
Especially if you expand directly after you make 4 goons with no robo in sight.



[X] Conclusion



      Now this is the place I'd like to wrap this all up, in for some was obvious before they already read this and have already implemented it into their play. The key to success for the Terran's who want to come ahead of a Protoss who uses pressure to gain a nice advantage in the war of attrition on this map is: (2 Base Arbiter and Proxies aside)
+ Show Spoiler +
Drum Roll:+ Show Spoiler +
Dropships!
[image loading]

      In each and every game, as displayed in this wonderful conglomerate of all the dropships, the Terrans who came out victorious all had implemented them into their play. Now understanding that any kind of harass is risky and a huge investment many may be reluctant to use it. Whether you're clever or not with them using dropships to disrupt the Protoss' economy on this map is key, even if you don't get many probe kills if the dropships if floating around it can easily distract the Protoss, disrupt their game flow, allow you to secure your OWN 3rd and an eco advantage all the while keeping them wary of the skies and the ground whenever they move out.


[XI] Thanks!



       I'd like to thank everyone who takes time to read, or even skim part of this article. Doing my best as a lower-ranked player I decided I'd take a break from the daily ladder grind of Iccup and attempt to contribute to the community.
       I'd also like to thank all the authors of all the FE's for inspiration even if this article, to me, isn't FE quality I'd like to be something worth mention.
       And last but not least ICCUP for changing the MOTW from HBRidge the day I finish writing all this up, touche....
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
Agavond
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
448 Posts
September 19 2009 09:18 GMT
#2
Wow very fun read and insightful. I personally never liked this map because the distance from player to player is enormous so killing those expos is really the only option.
O.oSins Since Op Cal
WastedYouth
Profile Joined March 2006
United States563 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-19 09:27:53
September 19 2009 09:26 GMT
#3
wow this is a pretty through article. I don't have time to read it all but here's my 2 cents on hbr:

If dropships are effective on this map its for the same reason that I struggle on this map against protoss: the 2nd nat is exceedingly hard to defend because of its distance from the nat making it suseptable to drop harassment or recalling.

Early game the 2 player nature of the map similarly to destination makes it ground zero for all kinds of elaborate cheese builds. You really never know what to expect so you have to play extra cautiously.

Putting aside the fact that arbiters or imba-tors as I like to call them give protoss a ridiculous harassment and mass attack advantage on every map, they are especially crucial on hbr because its so inconvienent for terran to maintain expo and main defense let alone maintain any vestige of map control with the potential for a devestating recall at any moment.

Also its very convienent for protoss to litter the map with cannoned proxy expansions that are completely inaccessible to terran partly because of the simplicity of a counter attack due to the map's circular nature

The strange ramps void terran's range advantage without constant scans or floating buildings which is a blessing to protoss.

I frankly hate TvPing on this map but I continue to practice it at the expense of many iccup points with the hopes that I'll learn the ins and outs eventually.
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Skill is what happens when luck becomes habit
drug_vict1m
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
844 Posts
September 19 2009 09:33 GMT
#4
wow, that's a big wall of text you got here.
ill read it later, thanks for the effort tho
One must feel chaos within, to give birth to a dancing star.
538
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Hungary3932 Posts
September 19 2009 11:04 GMT
#5
Huge effort, nicely delivered, rather funny then serious though, for all the bias and lack of understanding:-p
BW fighting!
oxidized
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States324 Posts
September 19 2009 11:32 GMT
#6
Yeah I just played a game that made me realize that timing pushes are very difficult on this map since toss can really delay easily on the ridges. Turtling is also hard because getting a fourth base is hell. That really only leaves dropship/harass play and the map does have several spots for dropping. I'm waiting for someone good to validate this idea though.
Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-19 12:01:57
September 19 2009 12:01 GMT
#7
On September 19 2009 20:32 oxidized wrote:
Yeah I just played a game that made me realize that timing pushes are very difficult on this map since toss can really delay easily on the ridges. Turtling is also hard because getting a fourth base is hell. That really only leaves dropship/harass play and the map does have several spots for dropping. I'm waiting for someone good to validate this idea though.



That's why I used the pro's for reference haha If not them then who else can validate it?
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
September 19 2009 12:34 GMT
#8
Wow amazing article!!
Moved to Brood War and featured
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
September 19 2009 13:45 GMT
#9
On September 19 2009 21:34 Plexa wrote:
Wow amazing article!!
Moved to Brood War and featured


Haha compliments from the article master himself :D Thanks Plexa.
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
LordWeird
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States3411 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-19 14:01:01
September 19 2009 14:00 GMT
#10
Incredible article, very thorough. I'll admit I've only read about 2/3 of it but I will say that I felt I needed to thank you. TvP is my favorite MU and it's really nice to read especially by someone who just switched to T.

Appreciate!
Chains none
Johnranger-123
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United Kingdom341 Posts
September 19 2009 14:26 GMT
#11
This was a good read, gj :D
ghostWriter
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3302 Posts
September 19 2009 15:49 GMT
#12
Very good read.
But I disagree about "a shot of Pusan shows his frustration". Pusan always looks like that.
Sullifam
Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-19 16:56:08
September 19 2009 16:54 GMT
#13
On September 20 2009 00:49 ghostWriter wrote:
Very good read.
But I disagree about "a shot of Pusan shows his frustration". Pusan always looks like that.


Yeah, that was before I had discovered the art of Youtube video --> GIF which I used for the Leta vs Reach game.

On September 19 2009 23:00 LordWeird wrote:
Incredible article, very thorough. I'll admit I've only read about 2/3 of it but I will say that I felt I needed to thank you. TvP is my favorite MU and it's really nice to read especially by someone who just switched to T.

Appreciate!


Since I probably look like it, and theres no way for you to know I didn't 'just' switch to Terran haha, I've been a Terrran user for a many years now I just had a little protoss phase in the middle and now I like more how the Protoss Icon than the Terran's.
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
ghostWriter
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3302 Posts
September 19 2009 23:23 GMT
#14
bump
Sullifam
3 Lions
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States3705 Posts
September 20 2009 00:24 GMT
#15
Really great article!
But I think you got the embed vod for Mind vs Best wrong.
It should be...
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyeMioSY144&feature=player_embedded
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
September 20 2009 01:09 GMT
#16
Good post Mono! My two cents - The conclusion that the key to Terran play on HBR (and most new maps nowadays) is dropships is pretty much a basic fact of TvP now. The real problem with Dropship play is the absolutely retarded positioning of the third base. There's no real way for Terrans to access it at all.

On the flip side, Terrans have an easily defendable third base as well, while any fourth base that the Protoss takes is easily harassed by Terran. I think that it's this feature of Heartbreak that's led to a lot of rather uninspiring games. Since there is no real ability for Protoss to flank or secure a nice front even, it generally comes down to Arbiters and recall to save the day for them on the map.

In my opinion, it's really damn hard for both races on HBR. I think that by the end game though, Terrans generally have it easier, but it can be really easy for Protoss to take an easy lead by setting up just a few cannons to prevent harassment. On the ICcup level, it gets extremely hard for Terrans to do well on this map though because safetoss generally pwns harassment Terran. Any timing push that Terrans do on HBR is kind of silly because Protoss can loop around the Terran army and either counter or trap them. Terran just doesn't have enough forces midgame to stop any Protoss maneuvering.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
September 20 2009 01:23 GMT
#17
On September 20 2009 09:24 3 Lions wrote:
Really great article!
But I think you got the embed vod for Mind vs Best wrong.
It should be...
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyeMioSY144&feature=player_embedded


Fixed, thanks

On September 20 2009 10:09 Mystlord wrote:
Good post Mono! My two cents - The conclusion that the key to Terran play on HBR (and most new maps nowadays) is dropships is pretty much a basic fact of TvP now. The real problem with Dropship play is the absolutely retarded positioning of the third base. There's no real way for Terrans to access it at all.


When you say retarded positioning do you mean attacking the protoss' third or claiming your own? Because dropships save the day for attack, and if youre claiming your own its usually when the Protoss' units are out of position or you got time after a huge advantage in which the toss cant afford to move out to stop you.
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
oo_xerox
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States852 Posts
September 20 2009 09:19 GMT
#18
Holy shit man this is really good stuff indeed, i hope u write more of this...
I could get a more coherent article by gluing a Sharpie to a dog's cook and letting it hump the page.
kOre
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Canada3642 Posts
September 20 2009 09:22 GMT
#19
damn that took me a long time to read, only cus it was amazing i actually read the whole thing nice work and i hope you come up with more for other maps
http://www.starcraftmecca.net - Founder
Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
September 20 2009 11:37 GMT
#20
On September 20 2009 18:22 kOre wrote:
damn that took me a long time to read, only cus it was amazing i actually read the whole thing nice work and i hope you come up with more for other maps

On September 20 2009 18:19 oo_xerox wrote:
Holy shit man this is really good stuff indeed, i hope u write more of this...


Thanks guys I'm thinking of doing others for one of the newer maps, probably a summary of one (maybe two if i have time) after the first round of proleague.
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
CursOr
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States6335 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-20 21:13:41
September 20 2009 21:13 GMT
#21
An actual verifiable, totally useful, and provable conclusion that really... can't be argued with. This is they way to learn from watching pro gammers. This is what TL is about... thanks for all your work this is a REALLY smooth layout.
CJ forever (-_-(-_-(-_-(-_-)-_-)-_-)-_-)
Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
September 20 2009 22:37 GMT
#22
On September 21 2009 06:13 cUrsOr wrote:
An actual verifiable, totally useful, and provable conclusion that really... can't be argued with. This is they way to learn from watching pro gammers. This is what TL is about... thanks for all your work this is a REALLY smooth layout.


Representing TL, the OG Monokeros since 2005
Thanks again for the positive feedback :D
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
Dental Floss
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1015 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-20 23:54:39
September 20 2009 23:51 GMT
#23
does anyone know what changes were made to RoHB between versions .9 and the current 1.1?
Kim Tae Gyun.... never forget Perfectman RIP
Divinek
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada4045 Posts
September 20 2009 23:57 GMT
#24
Dropships do seem like the logical choice based on the layout of the map and the way tosses play it. Nice to see a well thoughout article immensely backing this up. Good stuff
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Oh goodness me, FOX tv where do you get your sight? Can't you keep track, the puck is black. That's why the ice is white.
Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
September 21 2009 01:11 GMT
#25
On September 21 2009 08:51 Dental Floss wrote:
does anyone know what changes were made to RoHB between versions .9 and the current 1.1?


RoHB? Ridge of Heartbreak? im confused

On September 21 2009 08:57 Divinek wrote:
Dropships do seem like the logical choice based on the layout of the map and the way tosses play it. Nice to see a well thoughout article immensely backing this up. Good stuff


The bigger the better, amirite?
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
TheTeamLiquidTiger
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States627 Posts
September 21 2009 01:40 GMT
#26
not bad man
gonna try out what you said XD
SlayerS_BoxeR FTW ///// Long live the Emperor
BookTwo
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1985 Posts
September 21 2009 09:41 GMT
#27
very nice breakdown there. I'd be more than willing to read more of a different map!
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
September 21 2009 12:08 GMT
#28
Bump!
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
September 21 2009 19:52 GMT
#29
On September 21 2009 18:41 BookTwo wrote:
very nice breakdown there. I'd be more than willing to read more of a different map!

look forward to it!
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
Kazius
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Israel1456 Posts
September 21 2009 20:41 GMT
#30
You know what?

... the conclusion is true in about every long distance map not called Destination (add or take away a few). TvP is mech territory, which makes dropships and vultures the only true mobile units that can really inflict some pain when if TMNTurtling fails on a map (damn you late 80s, you ruined both my metaphors and appreciation of wacky hair). Hell, BoxeR got famous because he was the first one to really use dropships while the rest of the Terrans were cannon fodder. You'd think that the lesson would have stuck
Friendship is like peeing yourself. Anyone can see it, but only you get that warm feeling.
iSiN
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1075 Posts
September 22 2009 02:48 GMT
#31
holy sweet jesus!
Monokeros for staff with more articles like these
+ Show Spoiler +
That is after you start to proof read them for typos

if this was a blog 5/5
Grouty @HoN/PCKJ <--<333 || Jaedong Fan Cafe GFX
integral
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3156 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-22 02:56:19
September 22 2009 02:49 GMT
#32
The OP says "... no" to the Mind vs Best game, then goes on to say
Summary:
Two Factories > Two Gate Range
Especially if you expand directly after you make 4 goons with no robo in sight.
But I really feel like that game deserves a more in-depth look. If I remember the game right, mind denied scout while making his initial push look like a FD, leading best to expand -- the right move vs FD. But best's goon contain, which would be good enough to hold vs FD, gets raped when mind brings the tank he was holding back and the one he just produced to join the one up front and moves out. Best's decision to build a nexus undoubtedly cost him the game, but it was mind's doing, not best's mistake.

That's what I remember anyway.

Edit: from the thread
On May 30 2009 13:39 KP_CollectoR wrote:
Just to re-cap, Mind had a 2nd factory but made his push look like an FD. After opening 2 gate, BeSt decided to expand (he was faked out by Mind). Mind then pushed out with 3 tanks + vultures/marines against like only 3 goons, then proceeded to rape all of BeSt's probes. Very very strong execution of 2 fact push.

Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
September 22 2009 07:23 GMT
#33
On September 22 2009 11:49 integral wrote:
The OP says "... no" to the Mind vs Best game, then goes on to say
Show nested quote +
Summary:
Two Factories > Two Gate Range
Especially if you expand directly after you make 4 goons with no robo in sight.
But I really feel like that game deserves a more in-depth look. If I remember the game right, mind denied scout while making his initial push look like a FD, leading best to expand -- the right move vs FD. But best's goon contain, which would be good enough to hold vs FD, gets raped when mind brings the tank he was holding back and the one he just produced to join the one up front and moves out. Best's decision to build a nexus undoubtedly cost him the game, but it was mind's doing, not best's mistake.

That's what I remember anyway.

Edit: from the thread
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2009 13:39 KP_CollectoR wrote:
Just to re-cap, Mind had a 2nd factory but made his push look like an FD. After opening 2 gate, BeSt decided to expand (he was faked out by Mind). Mind then pushed out with 3 tanks + vultures/marines against like only 3 goons, then proceeded to rape all of BeSt's probes. Very very strong execution of 2 fact push.




Yeah I should've given more credit to Mind, but it was just funny because out of all the videos theres this one 8mn game of best losing to Two Fact, and this never happens again. So I felt it deserved special mention due to it being unique.
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
ZooG
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden618 Posts
September 22 2009 07:26 GMT
#34
great read, ty for the effort
"Rain, also a name for a meteorological condition" -Artosis
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
September 22 2009 07:37 GMT
#35
On September 20 2009 10:23 Monokeros wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2009 09:24 3 Lions wrote:
Really great article!
But I think you got the embed vod for Mind vs Best wrong.
It should be...
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyeMioSY144&feature=player_embedded


Fixed, thanks

Show nested quote +
On September 20 2009 10:09 Mystlord wrote:
Good post Mono! My two cents - The conclusion that the key to Terran play on HBR (and most new maps nowadays) is dropships is pretty much a basic fact of TvP now. The real problem with Dropship play is the absolutely retarded positioning of the third base. There's no real way for Terrans to access it at all.


When you say retarded positioning do you mean attacking the protoss' third or claiming your own? Because dropships save the day for attack, and if youre claiming your own its usually when the Protoss' units are out of position or you got time after a huge advantage in which the toss cant afford to move out to stop you.

I forgot about this thread ^_^

I mean attacking the Protoss. Due to the layout of the map, it's extremely hard to get Dropships actually into a good attacking position. Since the third is so close to the Protoss's rally point and since it's really easy for Dropships to get intercepted, they lose their effectiveness compared to maps like Python or God's Garden. I think the best way to use Dropships is periodic Vulture Drops into the main rather than an attack on the third. You might be able to sneak a Dropship along the bottom of the map, but chances are that it will get spotted early by the block that should be set up right in the choke of the third.

I'm not saying that Dropships aren't viable, it's just that they're hard to use on the map.

Now when the Protoss tries to get his fourth, then the fun begins. Dropships become the key unit to dismantling Protoss because you can start abusing Dropship and Vulture maneuverability to start wiping out Probes everywhere.

The only issue is that Protoss generally starts taking the initiative with Arbiters and Recall often on HBR (or they should), so you need to cover your side as well.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
SaftKalasEmil
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden213 Posts
September 23 2009 03:37 GMT
#36
GJ, nice read, keep it up
TeamLiquid CJ Entusman #27 SaftKalasEmil.
Musoeun
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States4324 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-23 03:48:55
September 23 2009 03:40 GMT
#37
On September 22 2009 16:23 Monokeros wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 22 2009 11:49 integral wrote:
The OP says "... no" to the Mind vs Best game, then goes on to say
Summary:
Two Factories > Two Gate Range
Especially if you expand directly after you make 4 goons with no robo in sight.
But I really feel like that game deserves a more in-depth look. If I remember the game right, mind denied scout while making his initial push look like a FD, leading best to expand -- the right move vs FD. But best's goon contain, which would be good enough to hold vs FD, gets raped when mind brings the tank he was holding back and the one he just produced to join the one up front and moves out. Best's decision to build a nexus undoubtedly cost him the game, but it was mind's doing, not best's mistake.

That's what I remember anyway.

Edit: from the thread
On May 30 2009 13:39 KP_CollectoR wrote:
Just to re-cap, Mind had a 2nd factory but made his push look like an FD. After opening 2 gate, BeSt decided to expand (he was faked out by Mind). Mind then pushed out with 3 tanks + vultures/marines against like only 3 goons, then proceeded to rape all of BeSt's probes. Very very strong execution of 2 fact push.




Yeah I should've given more credit to Mind, but it was just funny because out of all the videos theres this one 8mn game of best losing to Two Fact, and this never happens again. So I felt it deserved special mention due to it being unique.


That game really annoyed me - imo it was even until BeSt walked his goons into a mine. And lost one. I don't know whether he wanted to snipe mines a la Jangbi, thought he could kill the tank, or just didn't know they were there, but it was facepalm worthy and sort of defeated any conclusions being drawn from the game. imo.
Don't Shoot the Penguins. | Dance, 성은, dance! | Killer FanKlub | Action sucks. | Storm Terran hwaiting.
Rainbow
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States249 Posts
September 23 2009 04:01 GMT
#38
Amazing write up! I'm really hoping to see more [A] from you.

And although it has been decided that using drop ships on this map is the way to go, how would a terran use them? Mostly for harass, mostly for expanding to third, or even how many should a terran get?
Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
September 23 2009 04:52 GMT
#39
On September 22 2009 16:37 Mystlord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2009 10:23 Monokeros wrote:
On September 20 2009 09:24 3 Lions wrote:
Really great article!
But I think you got the embed vod for Mind vs Best wrong.
It should be...
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyeMioSY144&feature=player_embedded


Fixed, thanks

On September 20 2009 10:09 Mystlord wrote:
Good post Mono! My two cents - The conclusion that the key to Terran play on HBR (and most new maps nowadays) is dropships is pretty much a basic fact of TvP now. The real problem with Dropship play is the absolutely retarded positioning of the third base. There's no real way for Terrans to access it at all.


When you say retarded positioning do you mean attacking the protoss' third or claiming your own? Because dropships save the day for attack, and if youre claiming your own its usually when the Protoss' units are out of position or you got time after a huge advantage in which the toss cant afford to move out to stop you.



Since the third is so close to the Protoss's rally point and since it's really easy for Dropships to get intercepted, they lose their effectiveness compared to maps like Python or God's Garden. I think the best way to use Dropships is periodic Vulture Drops into the main rather than an attack on the third. You might be able to sneak a Dropship along the bottom of the map, but chances are that it will get spotted early by the block that should be set up right in the choke of the third.

You said when attacking, and now you're describing how dropships are supposed to be used in PvT. The key to dropships is the periodic Vulture Drops that set them back eco-wise, as well as causing them to move their army where they don't want.
On September 20 2009 10:09 Mystlord wrote:
I'm not saying that Dropships aren't viable, it's just that they're hard to use on the map.




I'll answer this quote with a quote from my conclusion,
On September 19 2009 17:58 Monokeros wrote:
Now understanding that any kind of harass is risky and a huge investment many may be reluctant to use it. Whether you're clever or not with them using dropships to disrupt the Protoss' economy on this map is key, even if you don't get many probe kills if the dropships if floating around it can easily distract the Protoss, disrupt their game flow, allow you to secure your OWN 3rd and an eco advantage all the while keeping them wary of the skies and the ground whenever they move out.


To me, though this might not be understood when something is risky//huge investment it means that its hard to use in that, it's hard to confidently use them without crippling your own macro/micro. Along with the basic meaning mulitasking's a bitch, but thats TvP for you.

Basically, I'm agreeing with you 100% so....yeah I'm glad you we're seeing eye to eye
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
Inzek
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Chile802 Posts
September 25 2009 03:58 GMT
#40
I think mystlord is only saying that given the position of 3rds in HBR is hard to harass that with dropship (close to rally, close to nat, etc), so best option is just keep harassing main.. until toss try getting his fourth
Stork FAN!!!
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
September 25 2009 04:59 GMT
#41
Basically Inzek said it. I'm just saying that what I see end up happening is that the third is safe for all intents and purposes, but if Toss seals off his main from vulture drops with cannons/goons, then Terran is stuck trying to do a basic timing push or just plain turtling.

I think that the Dropship is a one trick pony on Heartbreak. You can't play fantasy style on that map and hope to win. It's really tricky on HBR :/
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
September 25 2009 07:44 GMT
#42
Really in depth and accurate article. I agree with the fact that dropships are key on this map. But because its so small it's very easy to defend from drop harass once scouted. Just look at the Flash vs Pusan game. Pusan was totally ready for the drop harassment and the game became even after that point. If not for Pusans ridiculous arbiter into carrier tech (hello, you simply don't beat Flash with carriers) he could have won that game vs a clearly superior oponent.

I find the real trouble with the map is that once toss gets 15+ goons, its almost impossible to find any place to harass except for with drops. Mid to lategame drops are also weak since observers will be in every single path you can take to the base. Obviously if he's doing 2 base arb or 3 base arb without obs then drops becomes much stronger.

Watching the games and the game list (in TLPD) makes it fairly clear that this map is Protoss favored over Terran. Mid to late game terran options are extremely few while protoss have an abundance of builds that work.

Noteworthy strenghts I found on this map personally is:

2 factory can be very strong since there are two paths. If he camps one of the ridges you simply stay below it, send the reinforcing vultures in the other path and mine up behind his goons. Then if he still camps that ridge you go the other path with your main army. This way you will have trapped 2-3 goons on the map and while you will have to deal with more goons at his base you will also have alot more vultures.

IF you can get set up outside his natural (behind the wall) it will be almost impossible for him to break you. Early timing pushes (unexpected ones) can win games straight out.
Armathai
Profile Joined October 2007
1023 Posts
October 11 2009 23:30 GMT
#43
Great Article, I'm not a fan of this map either, but hopefully will have a better chance against tossers now
Looking for ArcticCerebrate formerly from @USEast
Amber[LighT]
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States5078 Posts
October 11 2009 23:43 GMT
#44
i was caught at A is for Article

Really great job _VERY_ thorough.
"We have unfinished business, I and he."
Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-13 07:06:18
October 13 2009 07:04 GMT
#45
On September 25 2009 13:59 Mystlord wrote:
Basically Inzek said it. I'm just saying that what I see end up happening is that the third is safe for all intents and purposes, but if Toss seals off his main from vulture drops with cannons/goons, then Terran is stuck trying to do a basic timing push or just plain turtling.

I think that the Dropship is a one trick pony on Heartbreak. You can't play fantasy style on that map and hope to win. It's really tricky on HBR :/



Though I'm a little late in replying, calling it a 'one trick pony' with so much evidence of the power its right in front of you is kind of harsh :S. I mean no ones asking for fantasy style micro, its just if you're playing a protoss and the two of you around even skill odds are it hurts him more to defend it then it does for you to micro it, at least if you don't obsess on it so much that you're hurting yourself. Not to mention if he invests so much in defending the drops by keeping goons at home and adding cannons you're already in a great position to take your expansion. If the toss wants to turtle like you say then theres really no point in you harrassing because he's already unable to move out and deny your expansions. You make it sound so hopeless D:
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Map Test Tournament
11:00
QUALIFIER WardiTV TLMC
Chance vs NicoractLIVE!
ByuN vs MaNa
WardiTV926
IndyStarCraft 171
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 171
ProTech79
UpATreeSC 43
StarCraft: Brood War
Horang2 22753
Sea 3451
Flash 1335
Mini 933
firebathero 588
Soma 413
Hyun 364
Stork 304
Leta 286
EffOrt 275
[ Show more ]
Snow 263
ZerO 262
Larva 237
Light 207
Last 200
sSak 117
Mong 110
ToSsGirL 62
soO 48
Sharp 35
zelot 35
JYJ30
Aegong 24
HiyA 17
Sacsri 15
sorry 15
Movie 14
scan(afreeca) 12
Noble 12
yabsab 9
Terrorterran 4
Dota 2
Gorgc3461
qojqva3031
boxi982336
Dendi1096
XcaliburYe266
Fuzer 128
syndereN64
Counter-Strike
fl0m1284
markeloff102
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King98
Westballz25
Other Games
singsing2582
B2W.Neo860
crisheroes320
XaKoH 171
Happy161
Liquid`VortiX95
ArmadaUGS87
ToD82
NeuroSwarm66
ZerO(Twitch)4
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 13
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV441
• lizZardDota278
League of Legends
• Nemesis2769
Upcoming Events
Online Event
9h 20m
Wardi Open
21h 20m
Online Event
1d 3h
Online Event
1d 21h
[BSL 2025] Weekly
2 days
Safe House 2
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
BSL Team Wars
3 days
Team Bonyth vs Team Dewalt
Dewalt vs kogeT
JDConan vs Tarson
RaNgeD vs DragOn
StRyKeR vs Bonyth
Aeternum vs Hejek
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-09-25
Maestros of the Game
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
Acropolis #4 - TS2
EC S1
ESL Pro League S22
Frag Blocktober 2025
Urban Riga Open #1
FERJEE Rush 2025
Birch Cup 2025
DraculaN #2
LanDaLan #3
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

IPSL Winter 2025-26
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
WardiTV TLMC #15
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.