|
konadora
Singapore66155 Posts
i can't sleep because of this tough lung congestion i have (flu), makes me very uncomfortable 
so here's a random blog that has some of my thoughts that have accumulated over the past few years, especially so in the past one year. and sorry, i'll be ignoring the foreign scene, and will only be looking at BW ESPORTS in korea
in every scene, in every sports, there is a story. BW is no exception. from there start, there have been stories, legends, myths. stuff like "bonjwa", "legend of the fall", "kong line", "starleague curse", "zergs can't win in finals" etc etc. these settings set the mood for more epicness, proven by the popularity of Jangbi's recent games as he rose from near OSL-elimination to the finals. combined with the possibility of the first legend of the fall in 3 years, as well as overcoming his kong-line curse. the OSL has been doing great in this department, with stuff line "grand slam" (jaedong with 1 OSL finals wins against each race), "golden mouse", "ultimate rivalry" and "royal roader". MSL hasn't been really great with this, not developing great storylines - a backdrop for some hyping. since it is most likely that there wouldn't be an MSL anymore, nothing much to say about them. OSL can continue to develop these hypes. so what is the problem? It's Proleague of course. it's really rare to see something similar in PL, stuff like "underdog vs multi-time champion". it's always the top teams duking it out, in particular, KT vs SKT. while i am not complaining about watching more SKT vs KT greatness, it would be nice to see underdogs rise up and create some nice drama. no match-fixing, of course. but how else can we do this? this kinda links to the second problem:
PL schedule/layout. we've all noticed it. at times, even the OGN stadium at yongsan would be uber-packed, at times the MBCGame HERO LOOX center would be filled with practically no one. why the huge deviation? i blame the repetitive schedule and the 6-round format to be the key reasons. we had proleague matches almost every other day, with OSL and MSL games in between. this meant BW almost every single day. with matches typically standard, play-safe on standard maps, it is, sad to say, rather predictable how the games would turn out. pvz will either be a storm shower or some hydra bust, tvz will be bio into late mech into zerg tears, etc etc. you guys know the drills. what needs to be done to PL is revert back to its 3-finals format. one is the round 1 standard finals, round 2 is the winners' league style finals, and last would be the grand finals. with less teams now, there'd be less games (hopefully kespa doesn't turn it into some 7 round format or something), and there'd be greater anticipation to look forward to the games. if the games were more dynamic and diverse, then this may be a slightly different case (hello GSL), but sad truth is, games are and always be safe-and-standard unless you're fantasy or fbh. (one ends up winning more, one ends up losing more, you decide!) Also, remove that pre-playoff winner goes straight to finals bullshit. It totally kills off drama. Urgh.
So, what else needs to be done?
More diverse maps. Island maps. Unorthodox maps. Standard-yet-slightly-deviated maps. Maps like Arkanoid, Longinus II, Troy, Outsider, Triathlon (best map ever btw) and such have all produced some amazing games. Why aren't there maps like these in Proleague? If you look at the most recent maps used in Proleague, they are:
Alternative (screams retarded)
Circuit Breaker (heavily standard, but produces some amazing macro games)
La Mancha (disgusting map)
Neo Aztec (pretty decent)
Neo Beltway (lol no)
New Bloody Ridge (standard 2 player map)
New Empire of the Sun (heavily standard, was better when island had 2 gas)
Icarus (standard, plus muta imba)
Meanwhile, look at some of the recent individual-league exclusive maps:
Pathfinder (loltastic, but produced more decent non-standard games than PL ones)
Gladiator (standard)
Monte Cristo (T imba, but when PvZ, oh boy.)
Dante's Peak SE (this was the shit, awesome macro games)
Triathlon (fuck yeah!)
what PL needs to do is 1) bring back old favourites (bringing back neo requiem under the current m-game (i'm not gonna say the word) was a bad idea, i admit. wrong choice of map, bro) and 2) use some individual league maps (balanced one, not ones that would pull in all mirrors). which means no pathfinder of course. but bring back maps like Fighting Spirit, Triathlon and such. Maybe even push in an island/semi-island map into the map pool. Spice up the games, draw in the crowds who want something different and not 6 hatch 4 base hydraling vs 2/3 base protoss or late game mech ball pwnage every single game. I'm not saying get rid of all standard maps, but mix them up. I feel that the PL maps have gotten so bland that... i admit this but... a lot of times in VODs that doesn't involve S-class players or recommendation, i usually skim my way through. most of the time, i can kinda predict the outcome.
change is needed to retain the old crowds while bringing in new ones. the crowd, fanbase and potential audiences are still out there. just look at the recent Jangbi vs Soo series. or the SKT vs KT finals. people still do want to watch BW. but if we keep this standard bullshit up without any attempt to make changes in order to keep relevant and dynamic, we will start losing the fanbase and their interest.
what is TL's thoughts?
(p.s: sorry about lack of caps or bad flow or grammatical errors, it's late at night lol)
 
|
Great post, largely agree, let me dig up a blurb I wrote in the other forum a week or so ago.
Ok, found it.
Here comes wall of text (but I put my sincere thoughts into it, seriously!):
During regular season SPL matches, the live audience numbers stagger significantly from match to match, as you mentioned. I don't have official numbers or counts or anything, but just from the quick view of the camera in the few audience-capture moments, it's easy to see whether the two teams are popular or not. Not to be biased or anything, but SKT and KT usually draw the largest crowds while Fox and STX tend to draw... nobody.
In this regard, the teams are somewhat at fault, too. Their goal is to win, of course, but more and more so they are generating generic players who practice, play, bow, and exit. "Practice made me play good today" "I was lucky" "Coach helped me calm down and prepare" how many of these have you read in interviews lately? With our dear FBH in Ace and unable to do his thing, we don't have too many radical personalities in SPL that fans would actually bother coming out to watch (or tune into on cable TV, for that matter). Arguably, the "leaders" of this generation (TBLS) aren't really leading the scene - practice, play well, bow, and exit. "I practiced hard, I am happy that I won and I'll practice even harder to win the next match." For WHAT? "Thanks to the fans that came out, I'll try my best to show you better games next time." You know what, how about a kickass ceremony?
Then we move onto why the players are bred the way they are. I briefly mentioned that teams train them so. True, but there's more to the story. We are well-aware of how vicious Korean netizens can be. Slight deviation and minute offense can snowball into career-threatening incidents, and that's why the players pretty much keep quiet. Even today, when I check Fomos for news articles, I scroll down to see a familiar scene - "fans" (deliberate quotations) fighting against each other about stuff absolutely off-topic (for example, SCBW vs. SC2 in a SCBW article, which we are too familiar with right here on TL). If Manifesto revived into a Korean moderator working for Fomos tomorrow, 90% of users would be perma-banned. Anyways, the point is, the fanbase also made contributions to the current downfall.
So, back to playoff format. Yes, I think the current format does not take full advantage of unbalanced team-specific viewership. Having the most popular team play only one game in the entire playoff season is really a terrible, terrible idea.
I'd love to see crazy maps, or even UMS (I'm not kidding, UMS!!) have a part in SPL next season. Island maps, as you suggested, may prompt some crazy all-ins that even Kwanro would shiver in fear watching from home. Having a 4v4 UMS match requiring exquisite micro and multi-tasking would be a fun "break." Well ok, on second thought, UMS might be a terrible idea. But I wouldn't be so against it if it somehow miraculously happens.
Oh, I just thought of another one - FORCE a random vs. random match in every set 3 - even in SWL format. Each team would probably train one or two "random" specialists for the regular rounds. In SWL rounds, coaches may consciously make interesting sniping/anti-sniping choices in preparation for this "random" set. Who doesn't want to regularly see hilarious failures (or brilliant cheeses) in every match?
|
I completely agree with you that the current system's oversaturation with games is a problem. MBC shutting down ought to move things in the right direction and hopefully the (probable) reduction of the number of teams will too.
Maps aren't a problem to me; the quality of the map pool fluctuates and right now we happen to be at a low point. Your ideas about what makes a diverse map pool are results-oriented and subjective, and adding wackier individual league maps is a recipe for tons of mirror matchups.
I agree with the intent of behind your other suggestions if not the particulars (I have my own thoughts about that  )
|
You forgot Outsider on your "awesome" list though
Otherwise I completely agree, those maps were effing awesome
|
yea I feel like SPL maps got a lot more boring over the last season. back in 2008/2009 we had awesome maps like medusa, outsider, blue storm, etc. I really hope next season they really spice it up. I think the problem is that non-standard maps tend to bring in way more mirror MUs for 1 reason or another (truly imba, or just slightly imba and boring lineups from coaches).
for instance central plains was a pretty cool map idea but favored protoss a bit and so 27 out of 34 games were PvPs. I guess it's hard to make a nonstandard map that turns into an outsider and not a battle royal, but they really need to at least try to go for that next season. Sometimes it just takes a few changes to take a pretty imba map and turn into a pretty balanced map (such as medusa to neo medusa).
the maps this season are generally pretty neat variations on the standard 4-player macro map, but none as good as fighting spirit and none unique enough to have games play any differently enough to be too exciting.
and i actually like alternative, wtf >.<
|
On September 17 2011 04:24 Crunchums wrote:I completely agree with you that the current system's oversaturation with games is a problem. MBC shutting down ought to move things in the right direction and hopefully the (probable) reduction of the number of teams will too. Maps aren't a problem to me; the quality of the map pool fluctuates and right now we happen to be at a low point. Your ideas about what makes a diverse map pool are results-oriented and subjective, and adding wackier individual league maps is a recipe for tons of mirror matchups. I agree with the intent of behind your other suggestions if not the particulars (I have my own thoughts about that )
the problem is that with more players on each team (presumably) and less games to be played, a lot of players are NEVER going to see any playtime on TV and might just retire out of frustration/depression. They should at least start recording dream-league games and put them online or something.
They can't make matches Bo9 because that's just too much, but they can't really force teams to rotate rosters too much either. maybe bring back 2v2? but that would probably hurt ratings since not many people like watching 2v2s as much as 1v1s (I know i hate watching 2v2s lol), not to mention that no progamers play 2v2 anymore.
|
On September 17 2011 04:37 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 04:24 Crunchums wrote:I completely agree with you that the current system's oversaturation with games is a problem. MBC shutting down ought to move things in the right direction and hopefully the (probable) reduction of the number of teams will too. Maps aren't a problem to me; the quality of the map pool fluctuates and right now we happen to be at a low point. Your ideas about what makes a diverse map pool are results-oriented and subjective, and adding wackier individual league maps is a recipe for tons of mirror matchups. I agree with the intent of behind your other suggestions if not the particulars (I have my own thoughts about that ) the problem is that with more players on each team (presumably) and less games to be played, a lot of players are NEVER going to see any playtime on TV and might just retire out of frustration/depression. They should at least start recording dream-league games and put them online or something. They can't make matches Bo9 because that's just too much, but they can't really force teams to rotate rosters too much either. maybe bring back 2v2? but that would probably hurt ratings since not many people like watching 2v2s as much as 1v1s (I know i hate watching 2v2s lol), not to mention that no progamers play 2v2 anymore.
Broadcasting dream-league matches seems like a no-brainer to me, and I have no idea why they aren't already doing it.
My suggestion for the PL regular season is that each match should be a Bo3 of Bo7s instead of a Bo1 of Bo7s (spaced out similarly to proleague playoff matches). It would add more buildup to each match and also spread out playtime.
|
The maps thing is silly. Yes, this season is pretty meh but the games haven't been bad *at all* Maps just have too many rigid factors to make sure the game stays balanced to produce a whole list of variables to "spice it up." I'd love to see an island map, or some Triathalon-esque flavored maps but I still want the majority of my games I watch to be basics, skill intensive matches. Cheese is fun and I wish we saw more of it, but I think there's a stigma attache and...well, *try* cheesing someone like FlaSh.
If people are tired of seeing Skt V KT, then I have a huge problem with that. I watch this game for the sport itself, not to see some over the top drama. A lot of times after i read what people "want" for BW and all I can think of is the World Wrestling Federation. Do we want Broodmania XII or something going on? Do we need cheerleaders? I always drew my parallel from BW to chess and so I like my matches more of a somber experience with the effects being flames and lights to awe and inspire. Not some drama or hype storyline.
You bring a good point up about how many games are played. It's definitely over-saturated. It'd be cool to see more shows revolving around E-Sports or BW but without the game. Maybe some player specials, like MTV cribs but with teamhouses. More one on one interviews or round table discussions. Otherwise, there's just too many games but...I also don't live in Korea. If I did, I bet I'd be stoked about how much there is to watch.
As for my thoughts?
I think if KESPA wants to expand like they speak of...they need to get into the 21st century and learn that you can stream anything. ANYTHING. You want to keep it free and use ads for revenue? Cool mang, OPEN IT UP TO THE USA!! Or anywhere for that matter. The point is, make it so foreigners can watch the damn games easily. BUY out moktira lol.
I'd like to see some special events going on from time to time too. It's really cool that they play the fun matches where players offrace or do the timed switches and stuff like that. I enjoy those and I think one warmup before an actual PL match of some kind of 2v2, offrace, etc. Just a no pressure fun match before the real deal goes on.
Also, merchandising. Why in the name of all that is holy can I not somehow buy a team jersey? Or a poster? Or..oh I dunno,9867879567897695 of the things you can buy for ANY OTHER SPORT.
man...i can't wait for this finals
|
On September 17 2011 04:33 Iplaythings wrote:
You forgot Outsider on your "awesome" list though
Otherwise I completely agree, those maps were effing awesome
Oh yes, bring back Outsider!!
|
On September 17 2011 04:53 TheGlassface wrote:
Also, merchandising. Why in the name of all that is holy can I not somehow buy a team jersey? Or a poster? Or..oh I dunno,9867879567897695 of the things you can buy for ANY OTHER SPORT.
SO TRUE. God, I don't understand why it is that the e-Sports industry doesn't sell merchandise. I dunno if it's because the teams are all sponsored by companies who make all of their money from another means and just use their teams as advertising? But the teams could surely support themselves better if they sold some overpriced clothes.
|
Doesn't the whole MBC studio is placed in a ghost shopping mall have something to do with the difference in regular PL viewership?
A strong difference between regular sports and BW is that the sports teams are based on regions. That is to say, there's an inherent allegiance to local teams, whereas BW teams are sponsored by corporations. This contributes to the decline of weaker teams because there isn't an inherent base level of fans. I also feel that the close knit relationship in teams actually hurt the fluidity and business end of things. Coaches are rarely held accountable even though they may not be very good at what they do (I'm looking at you, STX coach). Trading players add to the excitement of changing dynamics.
|
since i don't speak korean, one of my biggest gripes has been the lack of knowledge. i remember opening up the US Chess Championship stream and being not just mind-boggled but excited because of the commentary, the excitement over the strategies being employed.
whenever someone plays standard in BW, i wonder if it's "really" standard. i wonder if there's some thing that we're missing that only a pro could understand that would be game changing.
would also like it if the pros actually elaborated on some of their tactics.
anyway with that said, since it doesn't affect BW in Korea since they understand Korean there...
i feel like it would be cool if certain maps would be used only in specific matchups. a good game for one matchup would be a one sided game in another matchup. i could see this being used in individual leagues, but i dunno about proleague.
also one of the problems with introducing too much crazy shit™ is that it doesn't resemble the developed spirit of the game and it feels unstable, lacking the sharpness that i love about BW. i support a little bit of variation and revision, but too much and it becomes kinda corny. it reminds me of the times when you'd make up your own rules when you played sports in 1st grade. it might bring in a few more people temporarily, but those people are also usually the first to leave the scene anyway.
with a couple of the teams folding i'm hoping we'll see more good games though, as the skill level minimum becomes higher and higher just to compete.
|
konadora
Singapore66155 Posts
i already did put outsider in the list :>
MBCGame's studio was... wow. when i went with ils, i was shocked. the whole mall was basically empty, the only people in the mall were in the MBCGame studio -_-
the point about area thing is interesting, but unlike other sports, it's really hard, and maybe a bit too late, for BW to be area-based. It's definitely possible, but it would require a lot of negotiation and change in logistics and all. but if it does, then it could be the key that is needed to draw more loyal fans.
also, another thing about reduction in teams: now that the lesser teams are disbanded, we may actually see more huge corporate sponsors take up the sponsorship. which means, eventually, all the teams will be sponsored by wealthy, recognised companies. this means more stable teams and no more the days of eNature and Pantech and Curitel lol.
about the maps thing, maybe introduce one or two unorthodox maps out of the seven, the rest can be standard. but man, please bring in some changes to the map pool. not saying maps like BR and central plains should return (i'd love to see them as non-mirror games though), but rather, as mentioned, maps like FS, Outsider, Triathlon etc.
|
United States11390 Posts
On September 17 2011 10:16 konadora wrote:
about the maps thing, maybe introduce one or two unorthodox maps out of the seven, the rest can be standard. but man, please bring in some changes to the map pool. not saying maps like BR and central plains should return (i'd love to see them as non-mirror games though), but rather, as mentioned, maps like FS, Outsider, Triathlon etc.
I'm being selfish here but I'd actually rather not have FS come back. If it does come back then majority will just see it as another reason to keep playing it on fish/icc etc and never bother with learning other maps ie circuit and aztec.
|
I agree with you on most points. I think having two bo7 matches a day for PL was way too much. Sure you can try just following your favourite team, but that makes it hard to really keep up with the scene and is discouraging to viewers. I want something to look forward to, not a daily chore.
I'm hot and cold for what you've said about the maps. I think that at the very least I agree that frequent map rotation and interesting maps are important, but I think opinions on exactly what maps are good is going to vary. That's really just another reason map rotation is important tho, so that whether you have maps you like or don't like, at least you know there will be new ones soon to get excited about.
|
I definitely believe that they should try to limit the amount of BW games; it creates more hype and isn't overwhelming.
|
People say Bo7 allows newer players to get a chance on stage. But that's not the core problem - the core problem is that the overall quality of games is diluted, and a larger time commitment is required for a fan to merely catch their favorite player's games.
For example, let's say you weren't a super-fan of BW, but a fan of Flash. If you want to watch Flash play in PL, you have to commit probably a 3-3.5 hour block of your life to be sure that you'll catch him playing for KT. In a Bo5, that would be 2-2.5 hours, a huge difference when you add it all up. And while the change to unfixed lineups does make matchfixing much more difficult, it also makes it harder for fans to anticipate and plan to watch what could be great matches, or their favorite players (AND it also makes it harder for players to prepare). Actually, with predetermined lineups, fans would pick out particular matchups to watch throughout the week - but perhaps could actually end up watching just as much starcraft by cherrypicking various matchups across various days.
I've been predicting for some time now that it would be Kespa that would kill the golden goose, and maybe it's happening. Remember at the beginning of PL two years ago (I think?) when there were so many interesting proposals in how to change PL? And only the most boring ones were adopted? Just the ones to EXTEND the broadcast time with Bo7 and some other one I don't remember.
One reason my own personal interest has died down is because of the amount of time it requires to follow even just one team, in hopes of catching a few particular players' games. And with Bo7 forcing teams to field weaker players on a regular basis, I also found myself watching a lot more mediocre games I didn't enjoy.
I've noticed that OGN seems to have a lot of nonpaid promotion time between games, promoting their own shows and just random filler, rather than paid ads. If it's not intentional, it's a bad sign.
|
Yeah i agree that the current BW scene is far too saturated. Too many games and even i found myself just switching off unless there was a player/team i wanted to watch. But now that BW is in its off season its like 'damn i want some more BW' but then when PL season rolls around i get bored of it.
I definitely think some fresh maps injected into PL would do alot of favours. Less PL matches a week or maybe even a return to Bo5 format would be better. The first placed team seeded into finals is also one of the stupidest fucking ideas i have ever seen. AT LEAST have the first and second place teams fight in a preliminary final to see who gets seeded into the grand final. Personally i would also like to see a Bo3 Grand Final or maybe a return to Super ACE in the Grand Final as well but maybe that's a bit much.
|
On September 17 2011 05:11 matjlav wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 04:53 TheGlassface wrote:
Also, merchandising. Why in the name of all that is holy can I not somehow buy a team jersey? Or a poster? Or..oh I dunno,9867879567897695 of the things you can buy for ANY OTHER SPORT. SO TRUE. God, I don't understand why it is that the e-Sports industry doesn't sell merchandise. I dunno if it's because the teams are all sponsored by companies who make all of their money from another means and just use their teams as advertising? But the teams could surely support themselves better if they sold some overpriced clothes.
The amount of overpriced clothing I would buy would probably feed Oz for a season at least.
|
for me, I just want a new round of Real Story Progamer.
and about certain maps being a mirror-fest. I think they should implement what they have planned a couple of seasons ago that you cant send the same race consecutively for a map.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
