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I began to type this just as a reply to the post, but I would rather blog it so more people actually read this rather than just looking at the length and omitting it altogether.
I am not trying to start some sort of heated sc2/bw debate, I just would rather more people read this because I put a good amount of time into typing it and it's something that has been on my mind for a while now.
Anyway here we go
On December 31 2010 18:12 evanthebouncy! wrote:
yeah i expect sc2 to grow out of style and die, smothering out bw in the process. so they'll ruin both games.
but that's to pessimistic.
In bw cheeses are actually creative and fun because the risk is so high. Do you love Boxer? Do you love when he cheeses? Of course you do!
But do you like Foxer when he cheeses?? HELL NO!! Cuz it's the SAME BULLSHIT over and over.
Boxer cheese/micro is phenominal, it's something you CANNOT do and you jizz your pants watching it. Foxer? Same o' bull over and over, which is just retarded.
Sadly enough, because SC2 players haven't seen BW, they think Foxer cheeses are new and innovative and amazing.
What keeps SC2 going in my opinion...is the fans who support it competitively who did NOT play BW. This huge fanbase is growing and growing, creating a group of elitist SC2 players who believe that SC2 is the first (and best) competitive game out there. This is mainly fueled by HuskyStarcraft and HD, along with GSL and all the tournaments putting money into a game that is very new.
What happens when you try to break down a huge army of ignorant people? They get defensive. This has created the arguments of which game is better. Anybody who says SC2 is better than BW clearly has not played BW and is ignorant.
If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc..
I distinctly remember a statement Husky made in their HDH Tournament. At the beginning of a match, he stated:
"SC2...the greatest competitive RTS game ever created"
Now keep in mind, this was said roughly 3-4 months after SC2 beta was even released! It's hype! that's all SC2 really is, just a big load of hype. Husky himself KNEW at that time, the complexity of BW was greater than SC2. This is simply logical because SC2 is a brand new frigging video game while BW was out and developed for 11 years! You cannot say at that time, SC2 is better than BW, it would not make sense for somebody to say that who played competitive BW!
Also, why would people go to a game that has a regular of roughly 500-600 people on their competitive ladder when SC2 has...I don't even what to know. What is the purpose of getting good at a game that is hardly supported by media, as well as being near god-damn impossible to be deemed as "good"? There is NO motivation to go to BW for new SC2 players. They want attention, they want instant gratification of "being good" (achieveable by these leagues made by blizzard), they want to beat their friends and be good at a game. That's simply it.
This huge fanbase (husky has like 350k subscribers? nevake had like a peak of 10k) is now dominant EVEN IN TL! TEAMLIQUID.NET...the EPITOME of foreigner BW...is now dominated by SC2 players.
How the hell are people going to convert to BW when even the most hardcore BW site out there is overrun by these SC2 players? I'll tell you, there is NEAR NO reason to convert. This is why SC2 is even still alive today. The game is a good rts, but it doesn't even come CLOSE to BW. Will it? Never, I can never see that happening. Blizzard has already indicated that they are doing shit their own way whether we like it or not. Bye bye high-ground advantage which allows in-depth strategies, bye bye attack move, Blizzard couldn't care less. To them, SC2 is making so much effing money it's not even funny. GSL and HD and Husky support this by pumping in more and more and more people into competitive SC2 by the god damn day.
Eventually though, people will get bored of this game like every game hyped up by media. This is already prevalent in blogs like this...the game is BORING. Even some SC2 players are losing interest (more blogs proving this). Only then in my opinion, when SC2 starts to die off, people may want that rush of RTS again and may find BW to replace it. However I see this as a long process that is just barely starting to intiate.
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Posting about a game's death 6 or so months after its release is a bit premature isn't it?
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You've probably heard this argument before, but SC2 is a brand new game, as you say, so how can you expect it to be just as good now as a 12 year old perfectly polished game like BW?
I don't think SC2 is nearly as good as BW right now, but to say it never will be is stupid and shortsighted.
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I wouldn't see it as a bad thing though. I agree that BW is much more complex than SC2 when you compare the two at the moment, but I really have to hand it to everyone who helped the competitive SC scene grow in general - even the incoming SC2 casuals whom you describe in your post.
For what SC2 is, it's still fun and the competitive seen is booming which is what any eSports fan ever wanted. It's a tradeoff, and I think we were all spoiled with how BW is, but compared to how everyone perceives the game, I overall am very happy the way things turned out.
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My friend and I (13 Years old) are going BACK to BW. I'm like playing Mysc, Sc2, and BW now.
edit: i wonder how many young people (15 under?) are playing BW.
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what's worrisome is that with all the money blizzard makes from sc2's hype, they likely wouldn't two shits about sc2 not being as good of a game competitively as brood war is. i also wonder if all the people who flock to sc2 and the husky channel aren't just people hoping to watch the videos and gain insight on how to get better so that they can have some of the hyped up fame and glory of sc2
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I don't think professionals are going to go back to BW even if they don't like SC2. As you mentioned there is not as much money or media coverage for BW as there is in SC2. That's just fact and that's just the way it is. BW being out for 11 years has been clear cut and standardized and is extremely hard to be good at. SC2 controls are a lot easier; MBS, automine, infinite control group, which makes APM less part of the skill factor allowing the gap from C+ and A rank BW players to narrow dramatically.
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So what I'm gathering from this post is:
1. Sc2 is bad
2. BW is amazing
3. Anyone who disagrees is ignorant
yet
I am not trying to start some sort of heated sc2/bw debate
Seriously, thats all the content I could discern. Am I missing something?
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If I was casting a tic-tac-toe tournament you can bet I'd say it's the deepest game ever. There's nothing wrong with hype and it improves the viewer's experience. As many others, I got into starcraft watching the gomtv tournaments casted by Tasteless. For me, Memory and Anytime were stars, people like DarkElf or pepe excellent players not scrubs that could barely make it into Proleague and BBS was the epitome of strategy.
Many people are just plain not interested in BW and telling them that BW is better than SC2 just minimizes their experience. It's not that Husky is brainwashing these people into ignoring BW. Most of them never cared in the first place. Those who do, will check it out and make up their minds. That is if they aren't put off by the elitst attitude of BW fans first.
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You telling me SC2 is boring doesn't make it boring.
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If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc..
Kespa contracts.
How bout them TL folk, you know, those guys that ran the premier foreigner sc site? They will never transition because bw is so much better! ...... wait what?
Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about.
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On December 31 2010 18:47 shindigs wrote:
For what SC2 is, it's still fun and the competitive seen is booming which is what any eSports fan ever wanted. It's a tradeoff, and I think we were all spoiled with how BW is, but compared to how everyone perceives the game, I overall am very happy the way things turned out.
It depends on whether you're a fan of Broodwar or a fan of eSports because very recently the two stopped being synonymous. Personally, there's no doubt in my mind that Broodwar is the greatest game ever made; there's a reason why every other esport failed miserably (compared to broodwar) and bw succeeded. It makes me bitter to see sc2 cash in on the enormous goodwill our masterpiece of a game has built for ten solitary years and even worse slowly wring the life out of it in the process. It's not fair that this inferior game gets to come out in an age were gaming, especially online gaming is much more prevalent and with an enormous fan base built on pure hype; that it gets to be huge.
But there's no denying sc2 is huge. It's got everything going it for it: a foundation from broodwar, huge player base, fun addicting game play and the support of Blizzard (for whatever that's worth). As an eSport I have little doubt it's already reached more people outside of Korea than Broodwar ever has, I have even less doubt that it will continue to grow and I know with certainty that it isn't going to die anytime soon. It still has ten years of expansions to nudge it along if it never gets going on its own and for some people that's awesome and exhilarating. It's a huge step forward for eSports, everyone knows it; the stronger sc2 gets the stronger and more legitmate eSports becomes as an industry.
I didn't realize it until recently, but I don't give a shit about eSports. I don't love gaming, its an enjoyable hobby but I don't care if its a sport. I love Broodwar... just Broodwar.
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On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:Show nested quote +If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Kespa contracts. How bout them TL folk, you know, those guys that ran the premier foreigner sc site? They will never transition because bw is so much better! ...... wait what? Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about.
Teamliquid WAS a BW site, for many years. Please don't tell me TL originated because of the SC2 team lol...
On December 31 2010 19:34 sob3k wrote:So what I'm gathering from this post is: 1. Sc2 is bad 2. BW is amazing 3. Anyone who disagrees is ignorant yet Seriously, thats all the content I could discern. Am I missing something?
I am not trying to start an argument at all, these are just my opinions. You don't have to reply if you don't like, but if you do then just realize that you are initiating the argument and please don't blame me for it that's all.
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On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:Show nested quote +If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Kespa contracts. How bout them TL folk, you know, those guys that ran the premier foreigner sc site? They will never transition because bw is so much better! ...... wait what? Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about.
Oh you mean that professional team bearing the name of a community born of bw?
The one from teamliquid.net which is the premier foreign bw site?
Tread carefully friend, you're starting to poke at bee hive.
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That part about elitist SC2 players and blogs like this one signalling end of SC2 made me chuckle. Seriously this is a sadly outdated and terribly opinionated post belonging to a time a few months ago.
I didnt get that horror about Teamliquid.net being overrun by SC2 fans either, teamliquid is what Nazgul and Meat wants it to be, now it is Starcraft both bw and SC2, tomorrow it might be WC4 (as they have already stated).
If anything Starcraft 2 is beneficial to Broodwar (maybe less so in Korea, but for now lets stick to foreign scene) as some of new visitors of the site might notice Broodwar section, games streamed from Korea and terrific job our coverage teams are doing and take up BW mantle along Sc2.
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On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:Show nested quote +If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about.
This makes me ill
On December 31 2010 19:48 Jakalo wrote:
If anything Starcraft 2 is beneficial to Broodwar (maybe less so in Korea, but for now lets stick to foreign scene) as some of new visitors of the site might notice Broodwar section, games streamed from Korea and terrific job our coverage teams are doing and take up BW mantle along Sc2.
Would make sense in theory but this is actually crap.
1. Almost every strong foreigner has switched to sc2.
2. The entire broodwar player base tried sc2, not everyone came back.
3. Broodwar is hard, really hard and skill level is very high. Sc2 is easy to get into, the ladder matches you with fellow scrubs and the game is easier; it's not a hard choice for a newbie.
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Sc2 won't die, it will just be like CoD or WoW, mediocre but with a huge community.
( edit: Okay it is already better than WoW or CoD, i mean mediocre compared to bw  )
People just don't seem to understand that quality and popularity aren't always related.
Best movies =/= biggest gross revenue and best games =/= biggest player pool.
Anyway who cares ? Just play bw if you like it.
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On December 31 2010 19:44 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Kespa contracts. How bout them TL folk, you know, those guys that ran the premier foreigner sc site? They will never transition because bw is so much better! ...... wait what? Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about. Teamliquid WAS a BW site, for many years. Please don't tell me TL originated because of the SC2 team lol...
TL was a BW site because TL was a BW team. TL.net originated because of TL. That team is now an SC2 team. So yes, the site originated because of what is now an SC2 team.
On December 31 2010 19:46 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
Oh you mean that professional team bearing the name of a community born of bw?
The one from teamliquid.net which is the premier foreign bw site?
Tread carefully friend, you're starting to poke at bee hive.
Me tread carefully? Learn your history. Whatever you think Teamliquid.net is, you are wrong. It is not primarily a BW community. It is primarily clan forums. TL.net is not like fomos or xplay. It is not FOR BW or SC2 community. It is first and foremost a website for the clan. If a community built around it, then there is a community there. That does not however, mean that the team is born out of the community, or that the community made the team famous.
User was warned for this post
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I currently play both SC:BW/2 but I only watch professional bw and I don't really much care about what game is going to die first unless any of SPL/OSL/MSL would stop.
Whatever happens, I will never forget the fact that BW became SK's national sport for a decade.
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On December 31 2010 19:41 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 18:47 shindigs wrote:
For what SC2 is, it's still fun and the competitive seen is booming which is what any eSports fan ever wanted. It's a tradeoff, and I think we were all spoiled with how BW is, but compared to how everyone perceives the game, I overall am very happy the way things turned out. It depends on whether you're a fan of Broodwar or a fan of eSports because very recently the two stopped being synonymous. Personally, there's no doubt in my mind that Broodwar is the greatest game ever made; there's a reason why every other esport failed miserably (compared to broodwar) and bw succeeded. It makes me bitter to see sc2 cash in on the enormous goodwill our masterpiece of a game has built for ten solitary years and even worse slowly wring the life out of it in the process. It's not fair that this inferior game gets to come out in an age were gaming, especially online gaming is much more prevalent and with an enormous fan base built on pure hype; that it gets to be huge. But there's no denying sc2 is huge. It's got everything going it for it: a foundation from broodwar, huge player base, fun addicting game play and the support of Blizzard (for whatever that's worth). As an eSport I have little doubt it's already reached more people outside of Korea than Broodwar ever has, I have even less doubt that it will continue to grow and I know with certainty that it isn't going to die anytime soon. It still has ten years of expansions to nudge it along if it never gets going on its own and for some people that's awesome and exhilarating. It's a huge step forward for eSports, everyone knows it; the stronger sc2 gets the stronger and more legitmate eSports becomes as an industry. I didn't realize it until recently, but I don't give a shit about eSports. I don't love gaming, its an enjoyable hobby but I don't care if its a sport. I love Broodwar... just Broodwar.
Wow, Good point!!! never thought about this way.... and now i'm conflicted
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EPT
