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YaShock
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Hungary119 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-24 14:40:26
October 21 2012 21:18 GMT
#1
Hello TeamLiquid!
This post is about Blizzard and StarCraft II, about it's problems, and what we can do about it. I'm writing this in Blog, because I'm not sure where else could this belong, also I've got a feeling, that this would be closed very quickly as a thread.
First of all, I would like to begin by introducing myself a bit:
I've been playing BW for 6-7 years. I've always loved that game. At the time, I was playing many games, of many genres. I played a lot of FPS, RPGs, or other non RTS strategy games. But RTS remained my favorite. When WarCraft III came out, I started playing it, but I felt like this was more RPG (becuase of heroes) than it should be, so I stack with BW. At first I played a lot of UMS and fun maps, like Big Game Hunters, but a few years later I started to take it more seriously. I was still in BW e-Sport golden ages, but I was having fun. A lot of fun. Later, I switched to DotA, because of my brother and his friends, and also because BW was getting old. It was around 2007-8. And then StarCraft II came out. After finishing the campaign I decided that will try my best to accomplish whatever I can in this game. I've been practicing as much as I could (not so much, because gaming has always been secondary for me, so it was like 1-2 hours a day on average). Since the first season I've been in Master league, and always quite near to GM. I've never made it to GM, because I didn't play enough.
My first surprise at StarCraft II was that, I achieved Master so easily, even though I was never that good at it. First I thought, it was because of BW experience. But months later, when I was following SC2 progaming, I realized that it wasn't for BW skills. No, it was because this game is too easy. No real micro units are available to us, nor position control like Lurkers, Reavers, Tanks (well despite Tanks, but they have been nerfed to death). Also, I must mention that I play Zerg, because I chose Zerg back in BW days, when I first saw them. I utterly fell in love with that race. On the other hand, in SC2 that race is incredibly boring. You secure 3 bases, macro up for 15 minutes, and then max out and a-move, whether you win or lose depends on one fight. About half year ago, you could actually see a lot of builds, which required some level of micro management and multitasking to pull off. But nowadays, it's just camping for 15 minutes, then proceed to a big maxed fight, where you can't see anything, everything just blows up, and you win or lose. It's became incredibly boring to play and to watch. Now I don't want to play this game at all. No micro is required, no multitasking, any scrub can destroy me who knows how to make 2 base immo sentry push. Whether I hold it or not, won't depend that much on skill. I think everyone knows the problems of SC2, beside, that's not even the purpose of this thread.
Why I'm actually writing this, is because there is a big boom on TL about SC2's future. Every second post is about how fast and why will SC2 fail. Many people have spoken their minds, but Blizzard doesn't really care. Whoever believes that they care, is fooling himself. There are reasons why they don't care. First of all, Blizzard has become enormous capitalistic company which has bought many smaller gaming companies. Blizzard is like Microsoft, and they both are killing the gaming industry. Let's see how:
Microsoft:
X-box 360 came out around 2005. Since then, they have never upgraded their hardware. Never. Not a little bit. Programmers have been optimizing their games as best as they could, but since about 2008, every game has the same graphics. That's because they just can't pull more out of it. It's impossible. That's hardware of year 2003, not 2012, for god's sake. But why does this affect PC games? That's simple. Because the most developers want to make as much money as they can, but due to piracy and amount of people who play on PC, it's quite obvious that they will release games on X-box. But whenever they release on PC and X-box simultaneously, the graphics on both platforms is the same. I guess Microsoft doesn't let smaller companies to release games on X-box without ensuring that PC's version won't have better graphics.
RTS was the genre that has suffered too much. You can't play RTS on consoles, so you can't have money from RTS. If you think about it, SC2 is the only recent RTS game.
And here comes the Blizzard:
I've played every Blizzard game since WarCraft I, and I love every one of those. Blizzard has made only exceptional products till WoW. I've never played WoW, because I'm not into MMO-s, but I've heard that after the original WoW, the next expansions were all trash. I don't know whether it's true or not, but I wouldn't be surprised. The original WoW has made so much money, that it changed the company and it's faith completely. Blizzard is no more a little company which produces games for hardcore gamers and for themselves to be proud of, but instead is a big capitalistic black hole which sucked many small companies, and which is the worst of all, they have no concurrent. No wonder that SC2 and Diablo III was crap. Becuase they don't care. They no longer make games for hardcore players, now they only care about money and make for 13-year old kids, who don't want to spend their time on micro, macro and whatever, they don't even know what that is. The problem is that these kids can switch to new CoD any day, and we can see this happening today. They all switch to other games, for example LoL. This caused chaos and crisis in SC2's world, which we are experiencing today. Every second post on TL is about this crisis. Here I will link few, which are the most popular:
Destiny's post
Slayer's disband
Grubby's post

And my favorite is this one:
StarCraft Crisis
This guy tells my every thought, it's like I'm hearing myself. Definitely check it out, and his video!!

Also there are more reasons why this is happening, more core problems of SC2, for example these:
Shitty UI
No LAN

But the question is: what happens now? Well CatZ and few other progamers want to talk to Blizzard about the game, and how to make it better. That's a good idea, except that Blizzard will NEVER listen to them. They don't care. They really don't. If they didn't implement these simple things in 2 years and came with that piece of shit (HotS), then why would they listen now? They will say, you don't make games, so we don't care. So will 13-year old Blizzard fanboys.

Overall, the SC2 is dead. The older BW/W3 fans either switched to LoL, Dota or stack with SC2 because this is the only RTS game out there. We need another RTS. Fortunately PC platform is reviving. People began to make free-to-play games, like League of Legends, and there is great opportunity to get money for these projects, with the help of kickstarter.com. And it works. It really does work. The thing we need to achieve is to show young and enthusiastic programmers, who want to create good games, that we, the hardcore RTS gamers are still out there. Sure you can tell me to shut up and go play Dota, but no. I like Dota, I like many other game genres, but I can't see myself compete in other genre. RTS is everything for me. When you feel in control of your whole army. When you can outmicro your opponent, to make beautiful moves, which can shock others. When you know that everything you do will have effect on you and your opponent. I love RTS, and I'm sure as hell there are many people out there who love RTS as much as I do. We need RTS which would not repeat the same mistakes as SC2 and learn from best RTS games like BW or W3. There are older threads which describe the core problems of SC2, but nobody has cares until now. Now, when everyone knows, that this won't get any better.
These threads describe these problems very well:
EternalLegacy's first part
Second post
LaLush's post
Abillities which kill micro
And finally, I'd like to see what you guys think about it, and how many people actually want a new, fresh RTS, which could become the real e-Sport RTS game.
Poll: Would you like to see new RTS?

Hell yes (54)
 
72%

No, you're dumb, GTFO (13)
 
17%

Maybe, but SC2 could still be good... (8)
 
11%

75 total votes

Your vote: Would you like to see new RTS?

(Vote): Hell yes
(Vote): No, you're dumb, GTFO
(Vote): Maybe, but SC2 could still be good...


EDIT: Newest thread about sc2s problems here

****
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-21 21:29:48
October 21 2012 21:28 GMT
#2
On October 22 2012 06:18 YaShock wrote:
But the question is: what happens now? Well CatZ and few other progamers want to talk to Blizzard about the game, and how to make it better. That's a good idea, except that Blizzard will NEVER listen to them. They don't care. They really don't. If they didn't implement these simple things in 2 years and came with that piece of shit (HotS), then why would they listen now? They will say, you don't make games, so we don't care. So will 13-year old Blizzard fanboys.

Where the hell have you been the last few months?

The reworking of the Widow Mine was a community idea.
Void Siphon was Grubby's idea.
And more.
YaShock
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Hungary119 Posts
October 21 2012 21:29 GMT
#3
On October 22 2012 06:28 Antylamon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2012 06:18 YaShock wrote:
But the question is: what happens now? Well CatZ and few other progamers want to talk to Blizzard about the game, and how to make it better. That's a good idea, except that Blizzard will NEVER listen to them. They don't care. They really don't. If they didn't implement these simple things in 2 years and came with that piece of shit (HotS), then why would they listen now? They will say, you don't make games, so we don't care. So will 13-year old Blizzard fanboys.

Where the hell have you been the last few months?


What do you mean?
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
October 21 2012 21:31 GMT
#4
Oh, and LAN is not on SC2 because then it could be pirated incredibly easily.

The shitty UI is being reworked as we speak. Linky.
YaShock
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Hungary119 Posts
October 21 2012 21:35 GMT
#5
On October 22 2012 06:31 Antylamon wrote:
Oh, and LAN is not on SC2 because then it could be pirated incredibly easily.

The shitty UI is being reworked as we speak. Linky.


Yep I saw that, but it's still crappy, if isn't worse than it was. It doesn't really give anything we've been asking for, and they just acted impulsively, because they were in panic, and by this they can make people shut up, but they don't really implement any features.
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-21 21:40:27
October 21 2012 21:37 GMT
#6
Impulsively? It took way too little time. IMO they were working on it already.
And on the UI still being shitty, you're a 1%. That's an understatement, too.

And you didn't respond to my edit on my first post here. -.-
YaShock
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Hungary119 Posts
October 21 2012 21:40 GMT
#7
Oh sry didn't see that. Well I don't think that people wanted THAT kind of mine. They imagined a mine like in BW, Vulture's mine, but instead they gave really shitty version. Void Siphon, I don't know about that, maybe.
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
October 21 2012 21:44 GMT
#8
FFS!

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=372085
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6712862598
YaShock
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Hungary119 Posts
October 21 2012 21:50 GMT
#9
Okay you may be right, but still doesn't change the fact that they didn't address units like Collosus, Infestor, Sentry, which clearly destroy micro, and boring units. Ye you can use burrowed Infestor, but give me a break, this isn't as much fun as Reaver drops.
fabiano
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Brazil4644 Posts
October 21 2012 21:54 GMT
#10
Things I personally believe that are roots of SC2 problems and that Blizzard will likely NEVER change:

1. Warp-in
2. "Infinite" units binding to a single control group
3. Macro mechanics
4. Force fields, fungal growth and concussive shells
5. The colossus (I mean, it's been 2 years and this unit is still in the game? Probably will remain there forever)
6. Players can max out way too fast
7. No real high ground advantage (their bullshit excuse is "to avoid randomness in the game")
8. The lead designer has no idea what the hell he is doing, as proven when he thought that by mech play we just meant robot marines
9. Individually microing units during big battles doesn't give any signficant advantage because everything happens way too fast to do so

Could SC2 still be good? Definitely. The programmers did an excellent job, you can customize a lot to make the gameplay as you wish.

Will SC2 be good? Probably not because the lead designer is clearly clueless. Make no mistake, his job is really hard and I doubt I would make things better in his place, but that doesn't mean he is excused.

Would I like to see a new RTS like BW? Oh fucking yeah, but seriously which company will want to take a big risk when it is so much safer to create MMO's and FPS's? Nowadays everything is about making fast money, I would guess only indie companies are making games based solely in passion.

We still can play BW, so let's do it!
"When the geyser died, a probe came out" - SirJolt
YaShock
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Hungary119 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-21 22:03:23
October 21 2012 21:59 GMT
#11
On October 22 2012 06:54 fabiano wrote:
Things I personally believe that are roots of SC2 problems and that Blizzard will likely NEVER change:

1. Warp-in
2. "Infinite" units binding to a single control group
3. Macro mechanics
4. Force fields, fungal growth and concussive shells
5. The colossus (I mean, it's been 2 years and this unit is still in the game? Probably will remain there forever)
6. Players can max out way too fast
7. No real high ground advantage (their bullshit excuse is "to avoid randomness in the game")
8. The lead designer has no idea what the hell he is doing, as proven when he thought that by mech play we just meant robot marines
9. Individually microing units during big battles doesn't give any signficant advantage because everything happens way too fast to do so

Could SC2 still be good? Definitely. The programmers did an excellent job, you can customize a lot to make the gameplay as you wish.

Will SC2 be good? Probably not because the lead designer is clearly clueless. Make no mistake, his job is really hard and I doubt I would make things better in his place, but that doesn't mean he is excused.

Would I like to see a new RTS like BW? Oh fucking yeah, but seriously which company will want to take a big risk when it is so much safer to create MMO's and FPS's? Nowadays everything is about making fast money, I would guess only indie companies are making games based solely in passion.

We still can play BW, so let's do it!


Agreed with every point, but about risk of making new RTS: many people might be skeptic about kickstarter, but I saw it working. There is a chance.
YaShock
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Hungary119 Posts
October 21 2012 22:02 GMT
#12
Take this for example:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity?ref=most-funded
I know it's a well-known company, but come on, 4 million dollars in few weeks? That's insane, and this isn't the most funded.
GnarlyArbitrage
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
575 Posts
October 21 2012 22:09 GMT
#13
Did a ctrl + f for planetary and for annihilation.

If you don't know about Total Annihilation, get it. Five bucks from gog, or free for torrents!
Then, look for Planetary Annihilation.

You should be relieved once you see P.A.. That game is going to be SO SEXY.
YaShock
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Hungary119 Posts
October 21 2012 22:17 GMT
#14
On October 22 2012 07:09 DigiGnar wrote:
Did a ctrl + f for planetary and for annihilation.

If you don't know about Total Annihilation, get it. Five bucks from gog, or free for torrents!
Then, look for Planetary Annihilation.

You should be relieved once you see P.A.. That game is going to be SO SEXY.


Wow I'm checking these out atm, so excited, thank you :D
Endymion
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States3701 Posts
October 21 2012 23:15 GMT
#15
On October 22 2012 07:17 YaShock wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2012 07:09 DigiGnar wrote:
Did a ctrl + f for planetary and for annihilation.

If you don't know about Total Annihilation, get it. Five bucks from gog, or free for torrents!
Then, look for Planetary Annihilation.

You should be relieved once you see P.A.. That game is going to be SO SEXY.


Wow I'm checking these out atm, so excited, thank you :D

don't get your hopes up, they're aiming for "awesome" not for competitive
Have you considered the MMO-Champion forum? You are just as irrational and delusional with the right portion of nostalgic populism. By the way: The old Brood War was absolutely unplayable
AnachronisticAnarchy
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States2957 Posts
October 21 2012 23:20 GMT
#16
I'd rather wait, personally. A good RTS game takes ages to make, especially when you're trying to make it original as well. If we don't start moving in the right direction once HotS comes out, I'll start preparing to jump ship. Then, if LotV doesn't make headway during beta, it's time to leave Blizzard for some hotshot indie company and their new competitive RTS. I find it hard to believe that a company, upon seeing that the only good RTS is dying, will not try to make their own RTS to fill the hole in the market.
"How are you?" "I am fine, because it is not normal to scream in pain."
Tahona
Profile Joined October 2010
United States252 Posts
October 21 2012 23:44 GMT
#17
o.o that eternity game looks like it will be pretty sweet. Even though those games are aiming for "awesome" are they worth the 5$ or whatever they're listed for?
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4347 Posts
October 22 2012 00:12 GMT
#18
If there was a new rts it would have to be 2.5D like brood war.Fully 3D RTS games will never be as good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
Savi[wOk]
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
United States81 Posts
October 22 2012 00:26 GMT
#19
I would definitely love to see a new RTS on the scene. A 2-D game with super nice sleek graphics. Maybe with a different mindset and mechanics would be nice. RTS is great because it requires you to use both your keyboard and mouse at full length, mechanics are everything in RTS but strategy is always number 1.
Lets play starcraft
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-22 00:50:11
October 22 2012 00:49 GMT
#20
The answer is just to go back to Brood War keke.

You can switch to a new game when someone makes a better one, but don't hold your breath cause it's not exactly just around the corner.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
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