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On August 12 2009 00:28 ChaseR wrote:Show nested quote +The bullet entered from under the ear and left from the upper side of her skull. There were bits of her hair and skin on the car roof. This made me sick...the horrors of war...for thousands of years, fuck humankind. MGS has been telling the future, today, really how far off in the future are genetically engineered soldiers and war has already been a business for a century ._. "What the fuck are we fighting for" was the question soldiers where asking themselves in Iraq. I can't stand war 
Actually it wasn't. You do know that the volunteer and return rate for multiple tours in Iraq is the highest % in any war America has fought and we have an all-volunteer Armed Services. Stop spewing this mis-informed garbage please. The soldiers know and understand that showing Iraqi's freedom and liberty is what they are there for and thats why so many have willingly re-upped and returned so many times.
Politico's =/= Soldier
Even though I disagree with the premise of the invasion, the main reasons for the soldiers do not reflect those of our politicians.
Glad someone from Norway can shed light on the feelings of American servicemen.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
This whole private military firm scheme is so fucked up on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin
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United States22883 Posts
On August 11 2009 18:46 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2009 15:36 LaLuSh wrote:
Man. The US just seems so fucked up sometimes. Read and watched all of it -- sounded like it was all taken out of a movie.
All this thread needs now is Aegraen defending blackwater. I have nothing against the idea of private security firms. I do however believe all transgressions that break the law should be punished per the law. Lastly, civilians are allowed to have automatic weapons and per the US Constitution is one of our rights to bear arms, and it shall not be infringed upon. Unlike you and others that frequent this site, I don't see Corporations as evil entities.
It's a very, very slippery slope, since we're not always the highest bidders. There also is no direct line of accountability between the bad things they do and having repercussions for them. On the ground level, I think it also sucks that they took millions of dollars worth of training from the US gov't and are parlaying it into another job, although it's understandable since some of those guys earn $700k~/month.
I don't think the company is as "dramatic" as most reports, though. It also gets shady because they're not simply an armed force, they've got departments for construction and many other things, and they probably are venturing into geopolitical affairs. Halliburton is a better case of this, since they've got their own private army as well. I don't think it's a stretch to think they might be using their forces to apply pressure to acquire new contracts in other oil states.
On the other hand, you don't exactly want Blackwater employees in regular society. These are very intelligent people (probably all PhDs), but they've got very specialized training to do what they do. They've gone much deeper into the military realm than most people, which usually leaves them out of place in the civilian realm.
BTW, it's not as if Blackwater is the only private military out there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_military_company
Norway's got one too!
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On August 14 2009 21:04 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2009 18:46 Aegraen wrote:On August 11 2009 15:36 LaLuSh wrote:
Man. The US just seems so fucked up sometimes. Read and watched all of it -- sounded like it was all taken out of a movie.
All this thread needs now is Aegraen defending blackwater. I have nothing against the idea of private security firms. I do however believe all transgressions that break the law should be punished per the law. Lastly, civilians are allowed to have automatic weapons and per the US Constitution is one of our rights to bear arms, and it shall not be infringed upon. Unlike you and others that frequent this site, I don't see Corporations as evil entities. It's a very, very slippery slope, since we're not always the highest bidders. On the ground level, I think it also sucks that they took millions of dollars worth of training from the US gov't and are parlaying it into another job, although it's understandable since some of those guys earn $700k~/month.
What? Took? They served their tours. It's no different than any other branches rating (Infantry, Nuclear Tech, Aviation Survival Tech, etc). You sign up and its understood that you serve your OBLISERV and once you are finished your contract you are free to do as you please.
No one stole anything, nor took anything.
Edit: I fully intend to use my training to obtain a Federal job once I get out of the Service. I took nothing.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 14 2009 21:10 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 21:04 Jibba wrote:On August 11 2009 18:46 Aegraen wrote:On August 11 2009 15:36 LaLuSh wrote:
Man. The US just seems so fucked up sometimes. Read and watched all of it -- sounded like it was all taken out of a movie.
All this thread needs now is Aegraen defending blackwater. I have nothing against the idea of private security firms. I do however believe all transgressions that break the law should be punished per the law. Lastly, civilians are allowed to have automatic weapons and per the US Constitution is one of our rights to bear arms, and it shall not be infringed upon. Unlike you and others that frequent this site, I don't see Corporations as evil entities. It's a very, very slippery slope, since we're not always the highest bidders. On the ground level, I think it also sucks that they took millions of dollars worth of training from the US gov't and are parlaying it into another job, although it's understandable since some of those guys earn $700k~/month. What? Took? They served their tours. It's no different than any other branches rating (Infantry, Nuclear Tech, Aviation Survival Tech, etc). You sign up and its understood that you serve your OBLISERV and once you are finished your contract you are free to do as you please. No one stole anything, nor took anything. Edit: I fully intend to use my training to obtain a Federal job once I get out of the Service. I took nothing.
You have no problem with someone turning down a job for their government to go with the highest bidder instead? And that's the minimum, but these guys are usually on the officer path and then drop. They're exploring territory that hasn't been covered yet, but I guarantee you if the gov't keeps losing men this deep they're going to change protocol.
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United States22883 Posts
Just to give you an idea of the problem, the US gov't gets headaches thinking about Blackwater but know who loves them the most? UAE states. They get the services of a paramilitary (just like Saudi Arabia!) without needing any military infrastructure of their own, they've got plenty of money to spend on it and indiscretions get completely ignored.
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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
From a non-American perspective, it looks pretty much fucked up.
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On August 14 2009 21:18 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 21:10 Aegraen wrote:On August 14 2009 21:04 Jibba wrote:On August 11 2009 18:46 Aegraen wrote:On August 11 2009 15:36 LaLuSh wrote:
Man. The US just seems so fucked up sometimes. Read and watched all of it -- sounded like it was all taken out of a movie.
All this thread needs now is Aegraen defending blackwater. I have nothing against the idea of private security firms. I do however believe all transgressions that break the law should be punished per the law. Lastly, civilians are allowed to have automatic weapons and per the US Constitution is one of our rights to bear arms, and it shall not be infringed upon. Unlike you and others that frequent this site, I don't see Corporations as evil entities. It's a very, very slippery slope, since we're not always the highest bidders. On the ground level, I think it also sucks that they took millions of dollars worth of training from the US gov't and are parlaying it into another job, although it's understandable since some of those guys earn $700k~/month. What? Took? They served their tours. It's no different than any other branches rating (Infantry, Nuclear Tech, Aviation Survival Tech, etc). You sign up and its understood that you serve your OBLISERV and once you are finished your contract you are free to do as you please. No one stole anything, nor took anything. Edit: I fully intend to use my training to obtain a Federal job once I get out of the Service. I took nothing. You have no problem with someone turning down a job for their government to go with the highest bidder instead? And that's the minimum, but these guys are usually on the officer path and then drop. They're exploring territory that hasn't been covered yet, but I guarantee you if the gov't keeps losing men this deep they're going to change protocol.
No, I have no problem with people exercising their free wills. People are allowed to turn down jobs, and this means deciding not to re-up for whatever reason. If the stipulation was that all training received in the Military was outlawed once your OBLISERV comes up, no one would join (Especially Air Force, Navy, and Coast Guard). We repay whatever training costs back when we sign our contracts specifying you must serve X time if you receive X training, obtaining X rate, etc.
You can't just drop from the Military. Your posts in this thread show an astonishing amount of inadequate knowledge coming from you. None of your posts have any accurate truth to them at all. For instance, you seem to think you can just drop from the Military, that the training you receive in the Military isn't repaid by OBLISERV, and that the vast majority of prior servicemen (Or at least a somewhat significant portion) do not return to normal civilian lives and parlay their training in the Military into an associated field in the Civ. Sector.
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On August 14 2009 21:27 Jibba wrote:
Just to give you an idea of the problem, the US gov't gets headaches thinking about Blackwater but know who loves them the most? UAE states. They get the services of a paramilitary (just like Saudi Arabia!) without needing any military infrastructure of their own, they've got plenty of money to spend on it and indiscretions get completely ignored.
Blackwater is a pin-prick and non factor for our Government. They pose no threat whatsoever. In fact, the greatest threat to this country and our Government is our Government. Focus on the big fish, not the little plankton.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 14 2009 21:43 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 21:18 Jibba wrote:On August 14 2009 21:10 Aegraen wrote:On August 14 2009 21:04 Jibba wrote:On August 11 2009 18:46 Aegraen wrote:On August 11 2009 15:36 LaLuSh wrote:
Man. The US just seems so fucked up sometimes. Read and watched all of it -- sounded like it was all taken out of a movie.
All this thread needs now is Aegraen defending blackwater. I have nothing against the idea of private security firms. I do however believe all transgressions that break the law should be punished per the law. Lastly, civilians are allowed to have automatic weapons and per the US Constitution is one of our rights to bear arms, and it shall not be infringed upon. Unlike you and others that frequent this site, I don't see Corporations as evil entities. It's a very, very slippery slope, since we're not always the highest bidders. On the ground level, I think it also sucks that they took millions of dollars worth of training from the US gov't and are parlaying it into another job, although it's understandable since some of those guys earn $700k~/month. What? Took? They served their tours. It's no different than any other branches rating (Infantry, Nuclear Tech, Aviation Survival Tech, etc). You sign up and its understood that you serve your OBLISERV and once you are finished your contract you are free to do as you please. No one stole anything, nor took anything. Edit: I fully intend to use my training to obtain a Federal job once I get out of the Service. I took nothing. You have no problem with someone turning down a job for their government to go with the highest bidder instead? And that's the minimum, but these guys are usually on the officer path and then drop. They're exploring territory that hasn't been covered yet, but I guarantee you if the gov't keeps losing men this deep they're going to change protocol. No, I have no problem with people exercising their free wills. People are allowed to turn down jobs, and this means deciding not to re-up for whatever reason. If the stipulation was that all training received in the Military was outlawed once your OBLISERV comes up, no one would join (Especially Air Force, Navy, and Coast Guard). We repay whatever training costs back when we sign our contracts specifying you must serve X time if you receive X training, obtaining X rate, etc. You can't just drop from the Military. Your posts in this thread show an astonishing amount of inadequate knowledge coming from you. None of your posts have any accurate truth to them at all. For instance, you seem to think you can just drop from the Military, that the training you receive in the Military isn't repaid by OBLISERV, and that the vast majority of prior servicemen (Or at least a somewhat significant portion) do not return to normal civilian lives and parlay their training in the Military into an associated field in the Civ. Sector. I'm telling you it's going to change, because the government wants lifers and their people are leaving after 7-8 years. Your hypocrisy on this issue is astounding. Patriotism is valorous in 99% of your other posts, but in this case you've got no issue with what they're doing (yet you feel compelled to stay within federal ranks, which means you do feel an obligation to do so.) I didn't say they shouldn't be allowed to. I didn't say it's not rational (I said the opposite, in fact.) I said it sucks. Do you wish more people joined private militaries than remained with the US gov't? I'm guessing the answer is no.
To pretend it's a non issue is like pretending Saudi's stake in Citibank is a non-issue. They're both issues, but neither get any coverage. Like any other corporation, they've got lobbyists influencing policy and the ones they affect end up hurting our military.
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On August 15 2009 00:23 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2009 21:43 Aegraen wrote:On August 14 2009 21:18 Jibba wrote:On August 14 2009 21:10 Aegraen wrote:On August 14 2009 21:04 Jibba wrote:On August 11 2009 18:46 Aegraen wrote:On August 11 2009 15:36 LaLuSh wrote:
Man. The US just seems so fucked up sometimes. Read and watched all of it -- sounded like it was all taken out of a movie.
All this thread needs now is Aegraen defending blackwater. I have nothing against the idea of private security firms. I do however believe all transgressions that break the law should be punished per the law. Lastly, civilians are allowed to have automatic weapons and per the US Constitution is one of our rights to bear arms, and it shall not be infringed upon. Unlike you and others that frequent this site, I don't see Corporations as evil entities. It's a very, very slippery slope, since we're not always the highest bidders. On the ground level, I think it also sucks that they took millions of dollars worth of training from the US gov't and are parlaying it into another job, although it's understandable since some of those guys earn $700k~/month. What? Took? They served their tours. It's no different than any other branches rating (Infantry, Nuclear Tech, Aviation Survival Tech, etc). You sign up and its understood that you serve your OBLISERV and once you are finished your contract you are free to do as you please. No one stole anything, nor took anything. Edit: I fully intend to use my training to obtain a Federal job once I get out of the Service. I took nothing. You have no problem with someone turning down a job for their government to go with the highest bidder instead? And that's the minimum, but these guys are usually on the officer path and then drop. They're exploring territory that hasn't been covered yet, but I guarantee you if the gov't keeps losing men this deep they're going to change protocol. No, I have no problem with people exercising their free wills. People are allowed to turn down jobs, and this means deciding not to re-up for whatever reason. If the stipulation was that all training received in the Military was outlawed once your OBLISERV comes up, no one would join (Especially Air Force, Navy, and Coast Guard). We repay whatever training costs back when we sign our contracts specifying you must serve X time if you receive X training, obtaining X rate, etc. You can't just drop from the Military. Your posts in this thread show an astonishing amount of inadequate knowledge coming from you. None of your posts have any accurate truth to them at all. For instance, you seem to think you can just drop from the Military, that the training you receive in the Military isn't repaid by OBLISERV, and that the vast majority of prior servicemen (Or at least a somewhat significant portion) do not return to normal civilian lives and parlay their training in the Military into an associated field in the Civ. Sector. I'm telling you it's going to change, because the government wants lifers and their people are leaving after 7-8 years. Your hypocrisy on this issue is astounding. Patriotism is valorous in 99% of your other posts, but in this case you've got no issue with what they're doing (yet you feel compelled to stay within federal ranks, which means you do feel an obligation to do so.) I didn't say they shouldn't be allowed to. I didn't say it's not rational (I said the opposite, in fact.) I said it sucks. Do you wish more people joined private militaries than remained with the US gov't? I'm guessing the answer is no. To pretend it's a non issue is like pretending Saudi's stake in Citibank is a non-issue. They're both issues, but neither get any coverage. Like any other corporation, they've got lobbyists influencing policy and the ones they affect end up hurting our military.
Insofar as speaking for the stats within the CG there is no problem whatsoever with retainment. I'm pretty sure it is the same for other Branches as well, especially in the current economic climate. You seem to think its unpatriotic to not always re-enlist once your Enlistment is up, and instead decide to join a Private Security Firm. That is not my belief at all. They have served their time and their country, now they are once again free civilians and can do as they please. This is the American way is it not? We don't compel and force our civilians into the Military, nor do we force our current servicemen into 20 year contracts.
As I said before, when these companies break the law, they should be punished per the law, so I'm not sure how you came up with what your spewing, but I suppose if you believe that Blackwater is actually a threat to America then I can see why you are saying the things you are. I'm just curious since you seem so enthralled and enraged by such a comparatively insignificant company, do you show the same convictions and outrage against the CIA because they are more of a threat than any private company to America?
I don't feel compelled to stay within the Federal ranks, it just so happens that the type of job I enjoy is mostly Federal. I do what I do because first and foremost I enjoy my job.
Let me re-iterate Blackwater is not hurting our Military in any shape or form whatsoever. If you are so concerned with the welfare of the Military then perhaps you should raise the ire against Politicians who haven't fixed the VA system in forever, keep reducing funding, and seek to perform societal experiments on the Military where unit cohesion and morale is most important.
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United States22883 Posts
There's no point in arguing with you because your views do not change. My goal is to educate other people on the matter, and simply by the fact that you're so vehemently disagreeing with me, I think they'll begin to understand what I'm getting at.
Thanks for helping me prove my point to those people.
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On August 15 2009 07:12 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2009 00:23 Jibba wrote:On August 14 2009 21:43 Aegraen wrote:On August 14 2009 21:18 Jibba wrote:On August 14 2009 21:10 Aegraen wrote:On August 14 2009 21:04 Jibba wrote:On August 11 2009 18:46 Aegraen wrote:On August 11 2009 15:36 LaLuSh wrote:
Man. The US just seems so fucked up sometimes. Read and watched all of it -- sounded like it was all taken out of a movie.
All this thread needs now is Aegraen defending blackwater. I have nothing against the idea of private security firms. I do however believe all transgressions that break the law should be punished per the law. Lastly, civilians are allowed to have automatic weapons and per the US Constitution is one of our rights to bear arms, and it shall not be infringed upon. Unlike you and others that frequent this site, I don't see Corporations as evil entities. It's a very, very slippery slope, since we're not always the highest bidders. On the ground level, I think it also sucks that they took millions of dollars worth of training from the US gov't and are parlaying it into another job, although it's understandable since some of those guys earn $700k~/month. What? Took? They served their tours. It's no different than any other branches rating (Infantry, Nuclear Tech, Aviation Survival Tech, etc). You sign up and its understood that you serve your OBLISERV and once you are finished your contract you are free to do as you please. No one stole anything, nor took anything. Edit: I fully intend to use my training to obtain a Federal job once I get out of the Service. I took nothing. You have no problem with someone turning down a job for their government to go with the highest bidder instead? And that's the minimum, but these guys are usually on the officer path and then drop. They're exploring territory that hasn't been covered yet, but I guarantee you if the gov't keeps losing men this deep they're going to change protocol. No, I have no problem with people exercising their free wills. People are allowed to turn down jobs, and this means deciding not to re-up for whatever reason. If the stipulation was that all training received in the Military was outlawed once your OBLISERV comes up, no one would join (Especially Air Force, Navy, and Coast Guard). We repay whatever training costs back when we sign our contracts specifying you must serve X time if you receive X training, obtaining X rate, etc. You can't just drop from the Military. Your posts in this thread show an astonishing amount of inadequate knowledge coming from you. None of your posts have any accurate truth to them at all. For instance, you seem to think you can just drop from the Military, that the training you receive in the Military isn't repaid by OBLISERV, and that the vast majority of prior servicemen (Or at least a somewhat significant portion) do not return to normal civilian lives and parlay their training in the Military into an associated field in the Civ. Sector. I'm telling you it's going to change, because the government wants lifers and their people are leaving after 7-8 years. Your hypocrisy on this issue is astounding. Patriotism is valorous in 99% of your other posts, but in this case you've got no issue with what they're doing (yet you feel compelled to stay within federal ranks, which means you do feel an obligation to do so.) I didn't say they shouldn't be allowed to. I didn't say it's not rational (I said the opposite, in fact.) I said it sucks. Do you wish more people joined private militaries than remained with the US gov't? I'm guessing the answer is no. To pretend it's a non issue is like pretending Saudi's stake in Citibank is a non-issue. They're both issues, but neither get any coverage. Like any other corporation, they've got lobbyists influencing policy and the ones they affect end up hurting our military. As I said before, when these companies break the law, they should be punished per the law, so I'm not sure how you came up with what your spewing, but I suppose if you believe that Blackwater is actually a threat to America then I can see why you are saying the things you are. I'm just curious since you seem so enthralled and enraged by such a comparatively insignificant company, do you show the same convictions and outrage against the CIA because they are more of a threat than any private company to America? Let me re-iterate Blackwater is not hurting our Military in any shape or form whatsoever.
I'm not quite sure how you can possibly say that Blackwater is insignificant in any way.
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On August 15 2009 08:12 Jibba wrote:
There's no point in arguing with you because your views do not change. My goal is to educate other people on the matter, and simply by the fact that you're so vehemently disagreeing with me, I think they'll begin to understand what I'm getting at.
Thanks for helping me prove my point to those people.
Eh, no. It's that you seem to be focusing on the little gold fish in the ocean and either purposefully, or unconciously ignoring the shark.
Come back to me when Blackwater starts firing on American soldiers ok?
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United States22883 Posts
What? Did you miss the part where they detained a group of marines in Iraq (I've heard worse stories from soldiers but this one got made public) or that they've been given immunity on many of their mistakes? What law do you suppose they're breaking when they kill the wrong people? Who's supposed to prosecute them? The FBI investigation already found that they violated RoE in that escort case but they were immediately granted "use immunity" by the State Dept. And what about when they operate at the expense of slaves living in the emirates? Dubai's government going to prosecute them when that's exactly what they wanted? Not to mention the blowback effect they're leaving behind in Iraq or the shitty way they treat our soldiers.
"Secretary Rice's attitude is that if there are individuals who broke rules, laws or regulations they must be held to account," McCormack told reporters. "Every action that she has taken during the course of the aftermath of this incident has been consistent with that approach." We've seen this time and time again from left and right and it's bullshit. They scape goat on a few individuals, but it's not just a "few bad eggs." it's a fundamental flaw in organizational approaches that allow these things to take place, and for the life of my I can't understand why you can't see that philosophically, mercenaries are a bad idea. Can you name a historical example where paramilitaries have ever worked out well?
To be honest, even if Blackwater were behaving well now, I don't think it's any different from saying "no matter what, in time collectivism always leads to tyranny." The idea of private militaries is fundamentally dangerous and they will degrade to a horrifying level.
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On August 14 2009 21:04 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2009 18:46 Aegraen wrote:On August 11 2009 15:36 LaLuSh wrote:
Man. The US just seems so fucked up sometimes. Read and watched all of it -- sounded like it was all taken out of a movie.
All this thread needs now is Aegraen defending blackwater. I have nothing against the idea of private security firms. I do however believe all transgressions that break the law should be punished per the law. Lastly, civilians are allowed to have automatic weapons and per the US Constitution is one of our rights to bear arms, and it shall not be infringed upon. Unlike you and others that frequent this site, I don't see Corporations as evil entities. It's a very, very slippery slope, since we're not always the highest bidders. There also is no direct line of accountability between the bad things they do and having repercussions for them. On the ground level, I think it also sucks that they took millions of dollars worth of training from the US gov't and are parlaying it into another job, although it's understandable since some of those guys earn $700k~/month.I don't think the company is as "dramatic" as most reports, though. It also gets shady because they're not simply an armed force, they've got departments for construction and many other things, and they probably are venturing into geopolitical affairs. Halliburton is a better case of this, since they've got their own private army as well. I don't think it's a stretch to think they might be using their forces to apply pressure to acquire new contracts in other oil states. On the other hand, you don't exactly want Blackwater employees in regular society. These are very intelligent people (probably all PhDs), but they've got very specialized training to do what they do. They've gone much deeper into the military realm than most people, which usually leaves them out of place in the civilian realm.BTW, it's not as if Blackwater is the only private military out there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_military_company Norway's got one too!
although it's understandable since some of those guys earn $700k~/month.
considering the total amount of contracts was close to half a billion over a 5 year span, not one employee is worth 700k/month. do the math, its just not profitable. please dont claim hard numbers without sourcing.
It also gets shady because they're not simply an armed force, they've got departments for construction and many other things, and they probably are venturing into geopolitical affairs. Halliburton is a better case of this, since they've got their own private army as well.
I could not find information on Haliburton Security Forces, I believe you are confusing construction contractors with security contractors. Blackwater does not perform construction, only provide security. If you have info saying other wise, please cite.
On the other hand, you don't exactly want Blackwater employees in regular society. These are very intelligent people (probably all PhDs), but they've got very specialized training to do what they do. They've gone much deeper into the military realm than most people, which usually leaves them out of place in the civilian realm.
All PHD's? Doubt it. Sounds like ex-military men who cant make a living back home and thus go private. All somewhat experienced, but I would not say "PHD" level. Pretty big assertion to say that they've gone much deeper into the military realm.
With in a 3 year span, Blackwater contracts increased from 200k to 500MM. How can a company recruit that much new people to fufill contracts in such a short time period? Companies must have settled for lesser trained/experienced people to fill those roles. Therefore, we end up with fucked up situations where blackwater employees murder innocent iraqis due to their inexperience.*
I understand you are trying to educate people, but please make sure you source and dont try to pull things out of your ass.
* Blackwater Liscence revoked in Iraq
http://uspolitics.about.com/b/2007/09/22/blackwater-kills-civilians-iraq-revokes-license.htm
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On August 15 2009 08:35 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2009 07:12 Aegraen wrote:On August 15 2009 00:23 Jibba wrote:On August 14 2009 21:43 Aegraen wrote:On August 14 2009 21:18 Jibba wrote:On August 14 2009 21:10 Aegraen wrote:On August 14 2009 21:04 Jibba wrote:On August 11 2009 18:46 Aegraen wrote:On August 11 2009 15:36 LaLuSh wrote:
Man. The US just seems so fucked up sometimes. Read and watched all of it -- sounded like it was all taken out of a movie.
All this thread needs now is Aegraen defending blackwater. I have nothing against the idea of private security firms. I do however believe all transgressions that break the law should be punished per the law. Lastly, civilians are allowed to have automatic weapons and per the US Constitution is one of our rights to bear arms, and it shall not be infringed upon. Unlike you and others that frequent this site, I don't see Corporations as evil entities. It's a very, very slippery slope, since we're not always the highest bidders. On the ground level, I think it also sucks that they took millions of dollars worth of training from the US gov't and are parlaying it into another job, although it's understandable since some of those guys earn $700k~/month. What? Took? They served their tours. It's no different than any other branches rating (Infantry, Nuclear Tech, Aviation Survival Tech, etc). You sign up and its understood that you serve your OBLISERV and once you are finished your contract you are free to do as you please. No one stole anything, nor took anything. Edit: I fully intend to use my training to obtain a Federal job once I get out of the Service. I took nothing. You have no problem with someone turning down a job for their government to go with the highest bidder instead? And that's the minimum, but these guys are usually on the officer path and then drop. They're exploring territory that hasn't been covered yet, but I guarantee you if the gov't keeps losing men this deep they're going to change protocol. No, I have no problem with people exercising their free wills. People are allowed to turn down jobs, and this means deciding not to re-up for whatever reason. If the stipulation was that all training received in the Military was outlawed once your OBLISERV comes up, no one would join (Especially Air Force, Navy, and Coast Guard). We repay whatever training costs back when we sign our contracts specifying you must serve X time if you receive X training, obtaining X rate, etc. You can't just drop from the Military. Your posts in this thread show an astonishing amount of inadequate knowledge coming from you. None of your posts have any accurate truth to them at all. For instance, you seem to think you can just drop from the Military, that the training you receive in the Military isn't repaid by OBLISERV, and that the vast majority of prior servicemen (Or at least a somewhat significant portion) do not return to normal civilian lives and parlay their training in the Military into an associated field in the Civ. Sector. I'm telling you it's going to change, because the government wants lifers and their people are leaving after 7-8 years. Your hypocrisy on this issue is astounding. Patriotism is valorous in 99% of your other posts, but in this case you've got no issue with what they're doing (yet you feel compelled to stay within federal ranks, which means you do feel an obligation to do so.) I didn't say they shouldn't be allowed to. I didn't say it's not rational (I said the opposite, in fact.) I said it sucks. Do you wish more people joined private militaries than remained with the US gov't? I'm guessing the answer is no. To pretend it's a non issue is like pretending Saudi's stake in Citibank is a non-issue. They're both issues, but neither get any coverage. Like any other corporation, they've got lobbyists influencing policy and the ones they affect end up hurting our military. As I said before, when these companies break the law, they should be punished per the law, so I'm not sure how you came up with what your spewing, but I suppose if you believe that Blackwater is actually a threat to America then I can see why you are saying the things you are. I'm just curious since you seem so enthralled and enraged by such a comparatively insignificant company, do you show the same convictions and outrage against the CIA because they are more of a threat than any private company to America? Let me re-iterate Blackwater is not hurting our Military in any shape or form whatsoever. I'm not quite sure how you can possibly say that Blackwater is insignificant in any way.
The video is interesting and all, but you all are getting played by the creators. There are only 1000 private employees in Iraq. That is not enough to occupy even a small city or section of that city.* This is a politcal issue that has to do with how closely regulated private security contractor companies should be as well as governments awarding contracts to companies with such close ties to political figures. It's a small problem compared to ethnic tensions in iraq, future elections, and pullout of US troops.
*US surge required 150,000 troops. Only then were they successful in stopping militant violence.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2008-07-16-iraq-surge_N.htm
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United States22883 Posts
I got ahead of myself with units when typing those numbers, you're right. The top non-execs can pull around those yearly, not including benefits and everything else. They're not all in service 12 months a year, but some of these guys are pulling around those numbers. The average starting salary is like $10-15k per month so at base you're making about 100k/year as a rookie.
KBR split off from Halliburton 2 years ago, but it's a private military contractor that builds/runs many of our military bases, prisons and some embassies. It's got its own small military detail and it gets contracted out to do training as well. I've also heard KBR does some very shoddy work.
I don't know what Blackwater's new website is (they've been renamed Xe) but if you look at their stuff on web archive, anything called Raven is part of their construction arm. Too bad the website's gone, cause they used to sell sweet apparel and plush dolls.
I'm pretty sure even Aegrean will back me up on their training. They don't hire young kids, they recruit strictly from SF and usually require that you have higher education at a Master's level or beyond. They've since scrapped everything, but their old recruiting page had some ridiculous requirements for training and education. The argument that they're lesser trained, inexperienced or fucked in the head is simply not true. They're excellent soldiers with the best training, but there's an organizational culture that leads to those kinds of mistakes. Calling it a few bad eggs is such a fucking cop out, whether we're talking about Abu Ghraib, My Lai or even Enron.
There's a lot more than 1,000 private employees in Iraq. I don't know what Xe is doing, but there's still operations like Triple Canopy and Falcon which had very close ties to Blackwater, and they're operating in a few other countries. Afghanistan and Pakistan, obviously, but they're being deployed in Somalia as well and I think they're getting set to enter Mexico. It is an issue because they're not just hired by the US government and the lines between these groups is blurry. Before the name change, they lost all their contracts in Iraq yet they were still working there because they were sub-sub contracted by other firms. And they're still mercenaries. Read the Prince if you don't get why it's a problem.
The only role I think they should be fulfilling is the securing/guarding of prime international targets, paid for by multiple countries, such taking control of Pakistan's nuclear bases when the government collapses, so we don't have a ridiculous crisis when India does it instead.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On August 15 2009 16:34 Jibba wrote:
I'm pretty sure even Aegrean will back me up on their training. They don't hire young kids, they recruit strictly from SF and usually require that you have higher education at a Master's level or beyond. They've since scrapped everything, but their old recruiting page had some ridiculous requirements for training and education. The argument that they're lesser trained, inexperienced or fucked in the head is simply not true.
Sorry, but I have great difficulty that believing that a Masters degree is necessary for being part of an army (unless you meant necessary for management or something). How many soldiers are there that complete six years of formal education, before going out there and risking their lives? It just doesn't make any sense to me. I can believe you if you say that it's very important for them to be intelligent, and that they only hire individuals who are proven to be intelligent, but if you limit yourself to only soldiers with a masters degree, you'll cut out such a large employee base that there's no way that you'll get the "top" soldiers.
Also, there are much better ways for them to test if a soldier is intelligent than demanding that he gets a Masters degree. That's like having the requirement for joining a tennis team be that the members needed to have completed a 50 mile marathon. Sure the members that do join are likely to be very fit, but if you want to guarantee fit team members, there are ways to do it that are much less restrictive, and way more relevant, than demanding that they have to have run a marathon.
(btw, I'm not debating the points I'm making here, I'm just saying why I think the masters thing is unlikely. if you have a source regarding it, I'll readily concede though)
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United States22883 Posts
Their site has vanished, so no, I don't. But a lot of the men they take are upper twenties/early thirties, and they're educated in things related to their work. Aegrean can correct me, but I don't think the military schools operate as formal 4 year institutions. I think the time frame is set up to accommodate enlisted men.
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EPT
