• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:49
CEST 09:49
KST 16:49
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting3[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent7Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO65.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)71Weekly Cups (Sept 29-Oct 5): MaxPax triples up3PartinG joins SteamerZone, returns to SC2 competition325.0.15 Balance Patch Notes (Live version)119
StarCraft 2
General
Ladder Impersonation (only maybe) 5.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8) The New Patch Killed Mech! TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO
Tourneys
Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Tenacious Turtle Tussle WardiTV Mondays SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers Mutation # 492 Get Out More
Brood War
General
BW caster Sayle ASL20 General Discussion BW General Discussion [ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent BSL Season 21
Tourneys
[ASL20] Semifinal B [ASL20] Semifinal A [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Ro8 Day 4
Strategy
Current Meta BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training Siegecraft - a new perspective TvZ Theorycraft - Improving on State of the Art
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread Dawn of War IV Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640} TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Men's Fashion Thread Sex and weight loss
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Inbreeding: Why Do We Do It…
Peanutsc
From Tilt to Ragequit:The Ps…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 919 users

[Math Puzzle] Day10

Blogs > evanthebouncy!
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
May 12 2009 15:52 GMT
#1
Woot so on to day 10!
Day 9's puzzle was first solved by Shadordrn or aznmathfreak.
+ Show Spoiler [solution] +

You want to try all the velosity, and bomb it at the exact time.
Take these 2 series:
t: {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... } for time
s: {1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -4 ... } for velosity
multiply them by the colum u get
st: {1, -2, 6, -8, 15, -24...}

For those who want a closed form, you can see t as a function of time, and s as a function of time as well.
t = t
s = (-1)^(t-1)ceiling(t/2)


Today's puzzle is this:

You have n spheres of equal size. distributed in some way in space.

A point on a sphere is called "private" if all other spheres cannot see it.
In more precise definition, private means you cannot draw a segment from any point on any other sphere, to that point, without crossing the surface of some spheres.
+ Show Spoiler [example] +

for example, suppose our heads are spheres, and stand face to face to each other. The back of our heads will be private points(no other sphere can see it), while our face will not be private points(since some other sphere can see it).


Your quest:
Find the area of ALL the private points, what is it?
and more importantly: prove that your answer is correct

Extra:
again, put answers in spoilers, and TRY THE PROBLEM yourself, even if you don't have a clue how to approach it, the process of trying it will make it much worthwhile (for you and for me as well, since I make these threads to see people attempting them).

Good luck! hopefully I see a ton of replies.

Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
TimmyMac
Profile Joined December 2008
Canada499 Posts
May 12 2009 16:01 GMT
#2
+ Show Spoiler +
Going to guess that the area of private points equals the area of one of the spheres. Can't prove it though.
Khenra
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Netherlands885 Posts
May 12 2009 16:10 GMT
#3
+ Show Spoiler +
The answer is: the area of all private points is equal to the area of the surface of one sphere. Example:

If you have 2 spheres, half of both spheres is private (this is easy to imagine).

If you have 3 spheres, and align them in a triangle, 1/3 of each sphere is private. If you however put 1 of the spheres directly inbetween the 2 others, one sphere has no private points but the other 2 spheres each have 1/2.

This rule remains true for n spheres, having an average private area of 1/n * (area of surface of 1 sphere) per sphere, totalling n/n = 1 area of surface of a sphere.
This signature is ruining eSports.
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
May 12 2009 16:13 GMT
#4
On May 13 2009 01:10 Khenra wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
The answer is: the area of all private points is equal to the area of the surface of one sphere. Example:

If you have 2 spheres, half of both spheres is private (this is easy to imagine).

If you have 3 spheres, and align them in a triangle, 1/3 of each sphere is private. If you however put 1 of the spheres directly inbetween the 2 others, one sphere has no private points but the other 2 spheres each have 1/2.

This rule remains true for n spheres, having an average private area of 1/n * (area of surface of 1 sphere) per sphere, totalling n/n = 1 area of surface of a sphere.


+ Show Spoiler +

you have yet to prove why you can freely re-align them to different shapes? how come such operation do not change the total amount of private areas?
by your definition i have a better proof, say, i have n spheres, line them up in a role, and it's obvious total private area is 1 sphere, but what gives me the right to freely move the spheres? that's something you'd have to prove
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-12 16:21:43
May 12 2009 16:19 GMT
#5
+ Show Spoiler +
the total area of the private points is equal to the area of one sphere. Not sure how to prove it though

if you have 2 spheres, then you have half of each sphere as a set of private points

if you have three spheres, and you arrange them into a regular shape in space, it's fairly obvious that the total area of the private points is equal to the area of one sphere. You can see that this holds as well as you move around the three spheres, as it holds for everything from a regular triangle to all 3 balls in a row.

if you have four spheres, it holds for a square, as well as any other configuration that you put the four spheres into.

Not sure how you prove this more rigorously, but by inspection, you get the area of the private points = area of one sphere.

+ Show Spoiler +

edit: basically the same answer as Khenra -_-. Not sure if it's right or wrong or anything though, as we both used these hand-waving proofs that basically say: since it worked for this configuration, by thinking about it, this should work for all possible configurations of n spheres. Probably not going to cut it.
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
ninjafetus
Profile Joined December 2008
United States231 Posts
May 12 2009 16:58 GMT
#6
+ Show Spoiler +
Without finishing the problem, I think you could start like this:
Have two non-overlapping spheres. The private points are the surface area of one sphere. If you can show a 3rd sphere, placed anywhere, will have the same private area as it makes public in other spheres, then you've got something to work with.

simple example: place the third sphere colinear with the first two. It will make one hemisphere of one of the first two public, but one hemisphere of itself will be private.
FirstBorn
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
Romania3955 Posts
May 12 2009 17:14 GMT
#7
+ Show Spoiler +
My best guess is that all the private points are equall to the surface of one sphere. You can rearange all n sphere in a row on a horizonal plane and notice half of the shpere that begins the row together with half of the sphere that ends it are private points.

I don't really know a way to prove this though. Although I guess the area of all the private points is constant even if n varies. And if that's the case then the area of private points for n spheres is equal to that of 2 spheres.

I'll just wait for someone really smart to solve this.
SonuvBob: Yes, the majority of TL is college-aged, and thus clearly stupid.
Valkynaz
Profile Joined May 2009
Estonia4 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-12 18:11:24
May 12 2009 17:34 GMT
#8
+ Show Spoiler +
Take a giant shape around all of the spheres and shrink it so, that in the end you have some spherical areas at the corners of the shape and the rest are straight lines between the spheres. The giant shape can only bend around the corners so in the end it won't be hollow from any spot. Now if you start moving on this shape from one point in such a way that if u move in a straight line, in the end you will be back in one spot, then you will have moved along a curved area of exactly 1 circle, since you can only turn while moving along a spherical area. The area of the spherical areas on this shape is together the area of the private points, since no straight line from the other spheres can reach it and every point inside the shape can be seen by at least 1 sphere. If you just remove all of the straight areas from the shape and put the remaining shapes together, you get a sphere, because if you had moved from any of the points on shape so that u get back to where you were before you would have turned along exactly 1 circle and if u remove all of the straight lines, the turning points are all that remain. Also note that in the starting shape, from one of the private areas, it was possible to move straight in any direction in such a way that you would be back to the starting point. Only a sphere has such attributes.

I hope it's not too difficult to understand.
Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States556 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-12 17:37:25
May 12 2009 17:35 GMT
#9
+ Show Spoiler +
Draw any plane in space somewhere far away from the spheres and move the plane in the direction of the spheres so that it remains parallel to its previous positions. The plane will first touch the spheres at some point A on some sphere, and last touch the spheres at some point B on some sphere. Then A and B are the only private points whose tangent planes are parallel to the original plane. Consider all possible directions for starting planes and we are done.
starleague.mit.edu
aznmathfreak
Profile Joined March 2009
United States148 Posts
May 12 2009 17:36 GMT
#10
On May 13 2009 01:58 ninjafetus wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Without finishing the problem, I think you could start like this:
Have two non-overlapping spheres. The private points are the surface area of one sphere. If you can show a 3rd sphere, placed anywhere, will have the same private area as it makes public in other spheres, then you've got something to work with.

simple example: place the third sphere colinear with the first two. It will make one hemisphere of one of the first two public, but one hemisphere of itself will be private.


+ Show Spoiler +
What Ninjafetus suggested is essentially a proof by induction, once you have shown that the private area of 2 sphere is equal to the surface area of one sphere, you go on and assume it to be true for n spheres and then prove that it's true for n+1 spheres. I don't think you can actually do that with words, since the orientations of the spheres have infinite variations, so instead I guess the easiest way would be to show it in a graph, then proving it geometrically.

gondolin
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
France332 Posts
May 12 2009 17:51 GMT
#11
On May 13 2009 02:35 Muirhead wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Draw any plane in space somewhere far away from the spheres and move the plane in the direction of the spheres so that it remains parallel to its previous positions. The plane will first touch the spheres at some point A on some sphere, and last touch the spheres at some point B on some sphere. Then A and B are the only private points whose tangent planes are parallel to the original plane. Consider all possible directions for starting planes and we are done.


Wow! Beautifull!
kg1128
Profile Joined May 2009
United States12 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-12 17:55:00
May 12 2009 17:54 GMT
#12
+ Show Spoiler +
answer=surface area of one sphere
proof- use induction
base case (n=1) area of private points = surface area of 1 sphere since there's no other sphere to 'see' the first sphere

induction: suppose the answer holds true for k spheres. color private points red in this k-sphere world. now add (k+1)th sphere.

since all the spheres are of the same size, given any 2 spheres, the areas of private points for each sphere are exactly the same. (in the same way, areas of non-private points in each sphere are the same too) ---------- (A)

by introducing (k+1)th sphere to the k-sphere world, some of the private points in the k-sphere world might become non-private points. color such points blue, then color the new corresponding private points on the (k+1)th sphere yellow.

by (A), sum of blue = sum of yellow

on the (k+1)th sphere, non-yellow points are private points since we colored all non-private points yellow.

so area of private points in k+1 world
=area of private points in k world - (private points in k but not in (k+1) world) + private points in k+1
=area of one sphere - blue + yellow
=area of one sphere

bisu
Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States556 Posts
May 12 2009 17:58 GMT
#13
kg if the spheres are randomly arranged I don't see why each sphere necessarily has the same total area colored red.
starleague.mit.edu
kg1128
Profile Joined May 2009
United States12 Posts
May 12 2009 18:00 GMT
#14
sum of (area colored red) = surface area of 1 sphere

and this is true by induction hypothesis.
bisu
Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States556 Posts
May 12 2009 18:06 GMT
#15
I guess I'm asking for more detail on why (A) is true
starleague.mit.edu
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-12 18:10:44
May 12 2009 18:09 GMT
#16
+ Show Spoiler +
the way the question is posed, it leads me to believe that there is only 1 possible surface area of all private points. working under this assumption, I can consider the most simple example and just run with it :p

so assume all the spheres are of radius r and exist in the same cylindrical space of radius r somewhere in space. in this scenario, only the 2 end spheres would have any private points, and they would both have exactly half their surface area covered in private points. thus, in this scenario, there would be 4 * r * pi ^ 2 (surface area of a sphere) are worth of private points.

of course, proving that this will be the case for all scenarios is more difficult, but again, the problem's wording really lets us use this as a jumping off point for our thought process. now, of course with that most simple solution, we could have any number of spheres and there would be the same area of private points, which leads to consider some form of induction for proving this. Forgive the informality of this proof:

trying to prove: for any number, n, of spheres of radius, r, in space, there will be exactly 4 * r * pi ^ 2 area of "private" points.

base case: 1 sphere. all points are private as there are no other spheres, so there is 4 * r * pi ^ 2 area of private points

inductive step: if i spheres have 4 * r * pi ^ 2 area of private points, i + 1 spheres also have 4 * r * pi ^ 2 area of private points.

proof: for each area that was private in the i case and not in the i+1 case, there is an equal area on the backside of the i+1th sphere that must now be private. proving this is not entirely trivial, but I don't really have the time to right now (at work :\). it's also necessary to prove the not-quite trivial fact that the rest of the points on the i+1th sphere are not private... I suppose I'll give the proofs of those 2 things some thought, but I know them intuitively to be true...
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
kg1128
Profile Joined May 2009
United States12 Posts
May 12 2009 18:16 GMT
#17
Muirhead, I like your answer.

but to be more complete you have to address these 2 things:

A. plane can touch multiple spheres at the same time
B. let x = radius of the spheres. whether x is 1 or 10 or 10000, same number of planes will hit same number of tangent points, yet the surface area of the sphere is different in each case.

if you can explain why A or B can be ignored, your proof is complete i think.
bisu
gondolin
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
France332 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-12 18:50:54
May 12 2009 18:37 GMT
#18
On May 13 2009 03:16 kg1128 wrote:

A. plane can touch multiple spheres at the same time
B. let x = radius of the spheres. whether x is 1 or 10 or 10000, same number of planes will hit same number of tangent points, yet the surface area of the sphere is different in each case.



+ Show Spoiler +

What he did is to construct a map from the grassmanian Gr(2,3) to the set of private points.
Identify Gr(2,3) with Gr(1,3) = P(R^3)=S^2/+-1.

Now except for a finite number of points, this application is etale and has for differential the homotethy x*Id. Hence the area of the private points is x*Surface(S^2) (since the application is doubly valued).

[Edit: Oops, i meant "except for a *finite union of 1-dimensional subvarieties*, the application is etale blabla"... Thanks Muirhead for the correction, this will teach me to only make drawings in dimension 2...
Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States556 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-12 18:40:02
May 12 2009 18:38 GMT
#19
+ Show Spoiler +
Here's a more formal sketch

I defined a "map" F from the real projective plane to pairs of points on the spheres. The map F is well-defined unless the moving plane's final point of contact or initial point of contact with the spheres is shared by more than one sphere (i.e. your A.). One can see that the set of points in the real projective plane which are messed up in this fashion is a finite union of curves (subsets of projections of great circles on the sphere). Thus, in reality F maps an open, dense subset of the real projective plane onto pairs of points on the spheres. If n is the total number of spheres, there is a natural n-fold covering map G from the n spheres onto a single sphere. One sees that F followed by G is an "inverse" for the canonical projection from the sphere to the projective plane.


EDIT: Gondolin got there first ^^
starleague.mit.edu
kg1128
Profile Joined May 2009
United States12 Posts
May 12 2009 18:49 GMT
#20
nice, both gondolin and muirhead
bisu
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 15h 12m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 118
StarCraft: Brood War
Leta 816
BeSt 436
Shinee 104
PianO 92
ToSsGirL 65
ggaemo 41
Bale 40
Sharp 21
Sacsri 18
Noble 13
League of Legends
JimRising 678
Counter-Strike
olofmeister825
shoxiejesuss533
ScreaM532
Super Smash Bros
Westballz32
Other Games
summit1g7241
ceh9351
C9.Mang0337
Tasteless110
Mew2King33
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL5774
Other Games
gamesdonequick1026
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Light_VIP 19
• LUISG 15
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos1660
• Lourlo837
Other Games
• WagamamaTV47
Upcoming Events
OSC
15h 12m
The PondCast
1d 2h
OSC
1d 4h
Wardi Open
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
Safe House 2
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Safe House 2
4 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS2
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
EC S1
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.