• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 02:49
CEST 08:49
KST 15:49
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8
Community News
SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup3StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026)64Weekly Cups (Sept 21-27): herO and ByuN double2Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple3BSL Season 2313
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026) How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? Awesome/Confusing SC2 BM SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup [Old] StarCraft 3 Reportedly in Development
Tourneys
Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Grand Finals Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) SC2 INu's Battles#21 [ 3-Days tournament ]
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Bot on ladder JaeDong's ASL S22 Ro. 8 Review Sagi.gg Launcher Released an AI researcher's take on the ladder bot
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro8 Day 4 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro8 Day 3 [ASL22] Ro8 Day 2
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Escaping Into Video Games: G…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8750 users

[math H] Convergence Test (Calculus level)

Blogs > evanthebouncy!
Post a Reply
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12816 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-20 11:41:18
February 20 2009 09:07 GMT
#1
Ah so it converges? I see. Thanks.

So I got a new tutor job(yay) and a student brought to me a question I cannot solve. I'd like to see how someone could do it though.

We want to test for convergence/divergence for

Integrate from 0 to 1 of function f(x)
where
f(x) = 1/[(1-x^4)^(1/3)]

So f(x) approaches infinity at x = 1, what we might want to do is to bound f(x) below with some other g(x), show that g(x) diverges, therefore f(x) also diverges. However I am unable to bound it with something easy enough to tell that it actually diverges...

The intuition is that the integration from 0 to 1 of f(x) diverges, because x^(4/3) < x if x is between 0 and 1, and online definite integrator tells me it diverges as well. But how do we bound it?

Any ideas?



Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
Nytefish
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United Kingdom4282 Posts
February 20 2009 09:42 GMT
#2
Can you compare with 1/[(1-x^4)^(1/4)] and look at a substitution x^2=sin(u)?

I don't think it'll work, but I gotta go so no time to try it out

No I'm never serious.
Cpt Obvious
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Germany3073 Posts
February 20 2009 09:44 GMT
#3
Well, the integral over f(x)=x doesn't diverge though, not even if you integrate from minus infinity to infinity.

What you might want to do is find a function like g(x) = 1/1-x, show that g(x) < f(x) for x between 0 and 1, and then be finished because g(x) obviously diverges. The "<" is important here, you want to find a minorant that diverges, not a majorant that diverges, because that wouldn't prove anything (What matters here is the limes for x->1, which is +infinity. If it were -infinity, you'd still have to find a diverging majorant).

Basically look through all basic fractal functions that diverge at x=1, find one that is always < f(x) in the interval and diverges, be finished.
Nobody ever reads signatures of people like me, do they?
datscilly
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States529 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-20 09:52:08
February 20 2009 09:46 GMT
#4
I think that the integral of (1-x^4)^(-1/3) from 0 to 1 does in fact converge. Using this integrator, http://integrals.wolfram.com/index.jsp , we have
x*Hypergeometric2F1[1/4, 1/3, 5/4, x^4] as the indefinite integral. Then looking up , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergeometric_series , we find that 2F1(a, b; c; 1) converges when c-a-b>0.

I also used the first definite integrator to come up on googling "definite integrator", but it gives the result "NaN", and I'm guessing it's wrong- it's not powerful enough for this integral.
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12816 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-20 11:42:16
February 20 2009 09:50 GMT
#5
On February 20 2009 18:46 datscilly wrote:
I think that the integral of (1-x^4)^(-1/3) from 0 to 1 does in fact converge. Using this integrator, http://integrals.wolfram.com/index.jsp , and then looking up , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergeometric_series , we get that 2F1(a, b; c; 1) converges when c-a-b>0.

I also used the first definite integrator to come up on googling "definite integrator", but it gives the result "NaN", and I'm guessing it's wrong- it's not powerful enough for this integral.


The result NaN means it diverges, and I doubt the student needs to know about hypergeometric_series considering she's having problems doing u_substitutions

Take it back. If it actually converges, we must bound it.
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12816 Posts
February 20 2009 09:52 GMT
#6
On February 20 2009 18:44 Cpt Obvious wrote:
Well, the integral over f(x)=x doesn't diverge though, not even if you integrate from minus infinity to infinity.

What you might want to do is find a function like g(x) = 1/1-x, show that g(x) < f(x) for x between 0 and 1, and then be finished because g(x) obviously diverges. The "<" is important here, you want to find a minorant that diverges, not a majorant that diverges, because that wouldn't prove anything (What matters here is the limes for x->1, which is +infinity. If it were -infinity, you'd still have to find a diverging majorant).

Basically look through all basic fractal functions that diverge at x=1, find one that is always < f(x) in the interval and diverges, be finished.


Haha you are the obvious
Give me some actual basic factual functions to try out, don't just say find some because no crap I already know I need to find some. I already stated in my question, I need some basic factual functions, so you got any suggestions? :/
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
datscilly
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States529 Posts
February 20 2009 10:20 GMT
#7
On February 20 2009 18:50 evanthebouncy! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2009 18:46 datscilly wrote:
I think that the integral of (1-x^4)^(-1/3) from 0 to 1 does in fact converge. Using this integrator, http://integrals.wolfram.com/index.jsp , and then looking up , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergeometric_series , we get that 2F1(a, b; c; 1) converges when c-a-b>0.

I also used the first definite integrator to come up on googling "definite integrator", but it gives the result "NaN", and I'm guessing it's wrong- it's not powerful enough for this integral.


The result NaN means it diverges, and I doubt the student needs to know about hypergeometric_series considering she's having problems doing u_substitutions


I know that "NaN" means that it diverges. What I meant was that even though I acknowledge that the online definite integrator says it diverges, it actually converges. If the most powerful math software gives such a result, then it should be seriously considered, and it does say that it converges, with the caveat that the hypergeometric series has been understood correctly.

Both the TI-83 and Mathematica give the same answer: 1.16... for the TI and Gamma(5/4)*Gamma(2/3)/Gamma(11/12) = 1.16... for Mathematica. Is it possible that your student gave you was a challenge question of some sort?
fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-20 10:44:13
February 20 2009 10:31 GMT
#8
On February 20 2009 18:52 evanthebouncy! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2009 18:44 Cpt Obvious wrote:
Well, the integral over f(x)=x doesn't diverge though, not even if you integrate from minus infinity to infinity.

What you might want to do is find a function like g(x) = 1/1-x, show that g(x) < f(x) for x between 0 and 1, and then be finished because g(x) obviously diverges. The "<" is important here, you want to find a minorant that diverges, not a majorant that diverges, because that wouldn't prove anything (What matters here is the limes for x->1, which is +infinity. If it were -infinity, you'd still have to find a diverging majorant).

Basically look through all basic fractal functions that diverge at x=1, find one that is always < f(x) in the interval and diverges, be finished.


Haha you are the obvious
Give me some actual basic factual functions to try out, don't just say find some because no crap I already know I need to find some. I already stated in my question, I need some basic factual functions, so you got any suggestions? :/

you mean fractal i think

yea same as poster below me

[image loading]
Do you really want chat rooms?
Wonders
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Australia753 Posts
February 20 2009 10:33 GMT
#9
Are you sure it diverges? Because I typed this into Mathematica:

Integrate[1/((1 - x^4)^(1/3)), {x, 0, 1}] (this just evaluates the integral),

and got

(Gamma[2/3] Gamma[5/4])/Gamma[11/12].
Kentor *
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5784 Posts
February 20 2009 10:45 GMT
#10
it converges. but how?????
silynxer
Profile Joined April 2006
Germany439 Posts
February 20 2009 11:22 GMT
#11
Kind of lame to start posting again after hiding in a hole for years (out of shame for being banned for extreme stupidity) in a thread like this but if I'm not mistaken I solved the problem and it would have been a waste of time not to post the solution:
Consider the Integral over (1/(1-x^2)^(1/2))=arcsin(x)=PI/2 for x=1 and obviously the convergent majorant you are searching for (due to limitations of notation a not entirely formal correct description but I'm sure you can do the rest yourself).
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12816 Posts
February 20 2009 11:41 GMT
#12
On February 20 2009 20:22 silynxer wrote:
Kind of lame to start posting again after hiding in a hole for years (out of shame for being banned for extreme stupidity) in a thread like this but if I'm not mistaken I solved the problem and it would have been a waste of time not to post the solution:
Consider the Integral over (1/(1-x^2)^(1/2))=arcsin(x)=PI/2 for x=1 and obviously the convergent majorant you are searching for (due to limitations of notation a not entirely formal correct description but I'm sure you can do the rest yourself).


Thanks.
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
mikeymoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada7170 Posts
February 20 2009 17:39 GMT
#13
You got your problem solved, so I'm gonna say gratz on new job!
o_x | Ow. | 1003 ESPORTS dollars | If you have any questions about bans please PM Kennigit
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 12m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft769
StarCraft: Brood War
Horang2 735
Stork 308
ggaemo 303
Leta 246
PianO 82
Hyuk 33
ZergMaN 30
yabsab 20
Bale 17
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm179
League of Legends
JimRising 372
Reynor61
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King222
Westballz43
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor724
Other Games
summit1g10075
C9.Mang0269
PiGStarcraft164
Sick148
ArmadaUGS55
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick618
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream144
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 16
• Letter147
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2290
League of Legends
• Lourlo1356
• Stunt487
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
3h 12m
Online Event
4h 12m
FEL
9h 12m
AI Arena Tournament
10h 12m
BSL: Ladder Tournament
12h 12m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 3h
INu's Battles
1d 5h
herO vs Classic
Percival vs Rogue
BSL Open Qualifier
1d 12h
BSL Open Qualifier
1d 12h
Replay Cast
1d 17h
[ Show More ]
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Rush vs Light
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Soma vs Soulkey
INu's Battles
3 days
SHIN vs Cure
ByuN vs Zoun
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
The PondCast
5 days
INu's Battles
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-10-02
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Calamity Invitational

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Copium Cup
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Custodian Cup
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.