• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:03
CEST 09:03
KST 16:03
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro4 Preview: On Course12Code S Season 1 - RO8 Preview7[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Progenitors8Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun13[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors16
Community News
Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO8 Results1Weekly Cups (May 4-10): Clem, MaxPax, herO win1Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule !11Weekly Cups (April 27-May 4): Clem takes triple0RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event12
StarCraft 2
General
Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO8 Results MaNa leaves Team Liquid Weekly Cups (May 4-10): Clem, MaxPax, herO win Code S Season 1 - RO8 Preview
Tourneys
2026 GSL Season 2 Qualifiers Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! $5,000 WardiTV Spring Championship 2026 SC2 INu's Battles#16 <BO.9> Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players
External Content
Mutation # 525 Wheel of Misfortune The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 524 Death and Taxes Mutation # 523 Firewall
Brood War
General
Pros React to: TvT Masterclass in FlaSh vs Light vespene.gg — BW replays in browser ASL21 Strategy, Pimpest Plays Discussions Flashes ASL S21 Ro8 Review BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[ASL21] Semifinals B [ASL21] Semifinals A [BSL22] RO8 Bracket Stage + Another TieBreaker Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game PC Games Sales Thread
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread UK Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
streaming software Strange computer issues (software) [G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
How EEG Data Can Predict Gam…
TrAiDoS
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1936 users

[math H] Convergence Test (Calculus level)

Blogs > evanthebouncy!
Post a Reply
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-20 11:41:18
February 20 2009 09:07 GMT
#1
Ah so it converges? I see. Thanks.

So I got a new tutor job(yay) and a student brought to me a question I cannot solve. I'd like to see how someone could do it though.

We want to test for convergence/divergence for

Integrate from 0 to 1 of function f(x)
where
f(x) = 1/[(1-x^4)^(1/3)]

So f(x) approaches infinity at x = 1, what we might want to do is to bound f(x) below with some other g(x), show that g(x) diverges, therefore f(x) also diverges. However I am unable to bound it with something easy enough to tell that it actually diverges...

The intuition is that the integration from 0 to 1 of f(x) diverges, because x^(4/3) < x if x is between 0 and 1, and online definite integrator tells me it diverges as well. But how do we bound it?

Any ideas?



Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
Nytefish
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United Kingdom4282 Posts
February 20 2009 09:42 GMT
#2
Can you compare with 1/[(1-x^4)^(1/4)] and look at a substitution x^2=sin(u)?

I don't think it'll work, but I gotta go so no time to try it out

No I'm never serious.
Cpt Obvious
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Germany3073 Posts
February 20 2009 09:44 GMT
#3
Well, the integral over f(x)=x doesn't diverge though, not even if you integrate from minus infinity to infinity.

What you might want to do is find a function like g(x) = 1/1-x, show that g(x) < f(x) for x between 0 and 1, and then be finished because g(x) obviously diverges. The "<" is important here, you want to find a minorant that diverges, not a majorant that diverges, because that wouldn't prove anything (What matters here is the limes for x->1, which is +infinity. If it were -infinity, you'd still have to find a diverging majorant).

Basically look through all basic fractal functions that diverge at x=1, find one that is always < f(x) in the interval and diverges, be finished.
Nobody ever reads signatures of people like me, do they?
datscilly
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States529 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-20 09:52:08
February 20 2009 09:46 GMT
#4
I think that the integral of (1-x^4)^(-1/3) from 0 to 1 does in fact converge. Using this integrator, http://integrals.wolfram.com/index.jsp , we have
x*Hypergeometric2F1[1/4, 1/3, 5/4, x^4] as the indefinite integral. Then looking up , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergeometric_series , we find that 2F1(a, b; c; 1) converges when c-a-b>0.

I also used the first definite integrator to come up on googling "definite integrator", but it gives the result "NaN", and I'm guessing it's wrong- it's not powerful enough for this integral.
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-20 11:42:16
February 20 2009 09:50 GMT
#5
On February 20 2009 18:46 datscilly wrote:
I think that the integral of (1-x^4)^(-1/3) from 0 to 1 does in fact converge. Using this integrator, http://integrals.wolfram.com/index.jsp , and then looking up , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergeometric_series , we get that 2F1(a, b; c; 1) converges when c-a-b>0.

I also used the first definite integrator to come up on googling "definite integrator", but it gives the result "NaN", and I'm guessing it's wrong- it's not powerful enough for this integral.


The result NaN means it diverges, and I doubt the student needs to know about hypergeometric_series considering she's having problems doing u_substitutions

Take it back. If it actually converges, we must bound it.
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
February 20 2009 09:52 GMT
#6
On February 20 2009 18:44 Cpt Obvious wrote:
Well, the integral over f(x)=x doesn't diverge though, not even if you integrate from minus infinity to infinity.

What you might want to do is find a function like g(x) = 1/1-x, show that g(x) < f(x) for x between 0 and 1, and then be finished because g(x) obviously diverges. The "<" is important here, you want to find a minorant that diverges, not a majorant that diverges, because that wouldn't prove anything (What matters here is the limes for x->1, which is +infinity. If it were -infinity, you'd still have to find a diverging majorant).

Basically look through all basic fractal functions that diverge at x=1, find one that is always < f(x) in the interval and diverges, be finished.


Haha you are the obvious
Give me some actual basic factual functions to try out, don't just say find some because no crap I already know I need to find some. I already stated in my question, I need some basic factual functions, so you got any suggestions? :/
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
datscilly
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States529 Posts
February 20 2009 10:20 GMT
#7
On February 20 2009 18:50 evanthebouncy! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2009 18:46 datscilly wrote:
I think that the integral of (1-x^4)^(-1/3) from 0 to 1 does in fact converge. Using this integrator, http://integrals.wolfram.com/index.jsp , and then looking up , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergeometric_series , we get that 2F1(a, b; c; 1) converges when c-a-b>0.

I also used the first definite integrator to come up on googling "definite integrator", but it gives the result "NaN", and I'm guessing it's wrong- it's not powerful enough for this integral.


The result NaN means it diverges, and I doubt the student needs to know about hypergeometric_series considering she's having problems doing u_substitutions


I know that "NaN" means that it diverges. What I meant was that even though I acknowledge that the online definite integrator says it diverges, it actually converges. If the most powerful math software gives such a result, then it should be seriously considered, and it does say that it converges, with the caveat that the hypergeometric series has been understood correctly.

Both the TI-83 and Mathematica give the same answer: 1.16... for the TI and Gamma(5/4)*Gamma(2/3)/Gamma(11/12) = 1.16... for Mathematica. Is it possible that your student gave you was a challenge question of some sort?
fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-20 10:44:13
February 20 2009 10:31 GMT
#8
On February 20 2009 18:52 evanthebouncy! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 20 2009 18:44 Cpt Obvious wrote:
Well, the integral over f(x)=x doesn't diverge though, not even if you integrate from minus infinity to infinity.

What you might want to do is find a function like g(x) = 1/1-x, show that g(x) < f(x) for x between 0 and 1, and then be finished because g(x) obviously diverges. The "<" is important here, you want to find a minorant that diverges, not a majorant that diverges, because that wouldn't prove anything (What matters here is the limes for x->1, which is +infinity. If it were -infinity, you'd still have to find a diverging majorant).

Basically look through all basic fractal functions that diverge at x=1, find one that is always < f(x) in the interval and diverges, be finished.


Haha you are the obvious
Give me some actual basic factual functions to try out, don't just say find some because no crap I already know I need to find some. I already stated in my question, I need some basic factual functions, so you got any suggestions? :/

you mean fractal i think

yea same as poster below me

[image loading]
Do you really want chat rooms?
Wonders
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Australia753 Posts
February 20 2009 10:33 GMT
#9
Are you sure it diverges? Because I typed this into Mathematica:

Integrate[1/((1 - x^4)^(1/3)), {x, 0, 1}] (this just evaluates the integral),

and got

(Gamma[2/3] Gamma[5/4])/Gamma[11/12].
Kentor *
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5784 Posts
February 20 2009 10:45 GMT
#10
it converges. but how?????
silynxer
Profile Joined April 2006
Germany439 Posts
February 20 2009 11:22 GMT
#11
Kind of lame to start posting again after hiding in a hole for years (out of shame for being banned for extreme stupidity) in a thread like this but if I'm not mistaken I solved the problem and it would have been a waste of time not to post the solution:
Consider the Integral over (1/(1-x^2)^(1/2))=arcsin(x)=PI/2 for x=1 and obviously the convergent majorant you are searching for (due to limitations of notation a not entirely formal correct description but I'm sure you can do the rest yourself).
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
February 20 2009 11:41 GMT
#12
On February 20 2009 20:22 silynxer wrote:
Kind of lame to start posting again after hiding in a hole for years (out of shame for being banned for extreme stupidity) in a thread like this but if I'm not mistaken I solved the problem and it would have been a waste of time not to post the solution:
Consider the Integral over (1/(1-x^2)^(1/2))=arcsin(x)=PI/2 for x=1 and obviously the convergent majorant you are searching for (due to limitations of notation a not entirely formal correct description but I'm sure you can do the rest yourself).


Thanks.
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
mikeymoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada7170 Posts
February 20 2009 17:39 GMT
#13
You got your problem solved, so I'm gonna say gratz on new job!
o_x | Ow. | 1003 ESPORTS dollars | If you have any questions about bans please PM Kennigit
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 57m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 4406
Hyuk 974
Horang2 952
Pusan 147
Mind 90
910 43
Sacsri 23
Bale 12
Icarus 10
EffOrt 10
[ Show more ]
ZergMaN 3
Last 0
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm184
League of Legends
JimRising 644
Counter-Strike
Coldzera 1598
Stewie2K683
m0e_tv350
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King100
Other Games
summit1g9825
WinterStarcraft498
C9.Mang0443
Sick291
ceh9244
monkeys_forever229
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL27973
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 61
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH317
• LUISG 11
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo1085
• Stunt386
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
2h 57m
Classic vs Solar
herO vs SHIN
OSC
5h 57m
Big Brain Bouts
8h 57m
sebesdes vs Iba
Percival vs YoungYakov
Reynor vs GgMaChine
Korean StarCraft League
19h 57m
RSL Revival
1d 2h
Clem vs Rogue
Bunny vs Lambo
IPSL
1d 8h
Dewalt vs nOmaD
Ret vs Cross
BSL
1d 11h
Bonyth vs Doodle
Dewalt vs TerrOr
GSL
2 days
Cure vs herO
SHIN vs Maru
IPSL
2 days
Bonyth vs Napoleon
G5 vs JDConan
BSL
2 days
OyAji vs JDConan
DragOn vs TBD
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
GSL
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
GSL
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-05-13
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
KK 2v2 League Season 1
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
Escore Tournament S2: W7
SCTL 2026 Spring
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
Heroes Pulsing #1
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2

Upcoming

YSL S3
Escore Tournament S2: W8
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
WardiTV Spring 2026
2026 GSL S2
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.