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So today there was a bunch of snow that came to my city today so there was no school and also no school tomorrow! So I woke up and saw my mom shoveling some snow and decided to help her and she told me to clean the driveway and sidewalk of a good neighbor of ours; she actually pays pretty well to do chores like mowing the lawn. So I go over there and proceed to do what I have to do and when I'm done, I ring the doorbell to tell her she can close her garage, somewhat expecting her to come out the door with some money. I felt bad and said it was fine, but was it? Was I just being polite? (I ended up taking the money, didn't want to argue and besides I needed it). This got me thinking even more over other things I do and acts of kindness; do I do it out of genuine care/love or is there some other reason behind it? Most of the time, its the latter but I was wondering if there is some way you can do something because you want to do it without any reward or incentive. I always seem like I do something because there's a hidden motivation and people don't know, and think I'm genuinely nice or something. Should I just not do it then or do it because it's the right thing to do?
Do you open thet door for girls because its manners or because they happen to be extremely hot? Which one is it, or can your reasoning be both? I used to always try to impress girls but I realized that doing that kind of stuff won't get you tons of girls to like you and get laid. Thinking about this gets me thinking even more about manners in general, acting differently at home and at public, with friends and other parents. Is it right or is there that motivation for others to like you more? Sorry its confusing to read. but it seems to be that everybody lies about their intentions.
 
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there is no such thing as genuine care/love
you either do it for money, or profit or benefits or whatever you want, or you do it for the sole fact that you wanted to feel good about doing something nice.
Simple way of saying it....
Do you open thet door for girls because its manners or because they happen to be extremely hot? Which one is it, or can your reasoning be both?
Answer: neither, i open doors to appear to others that im an awesome guy, or on reflex
but it seems to be that everybody lies about their intentions.
Answer: not always, and not everyone. Also, sometimes their intentions are clear and they don't have to lie. I want to borrow a game.
Dialogue
my friend: shit man bioshock is fucking awesome
me: fuck yeah but i don't have it
my friend: i have it
me: can i borrow it?
my friend: sure
I didn't make up some bullshit story like, my grandpa just died or some shit to make him feel pitty for me and compelled to make me feel better, i just straight up asked him for the game.
Also There is two reasons why he lent me the game, I think
1. hes my friend, he probably felt, why not doesn't really matter to me, here is a chance to be a good human being and help a friend out.
2. some intense complex plan.
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My faith in humanity is now futile. Whose quote is that though?
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il0seonpurpose: HE DIDN'T FALL? FUTILE.
paper: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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In public, I act the way I do because I care what others think of me (because obviously no one wants other people to think negatively of them). And the extent to which I act nicely depends on my habits, morals, and mood.
EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it I think that not wanting others to think badly about me is somewhat of a "bonus". Sometimes it's not wanting others to feel anxious or like "oh crap I'm screwed" if, for example, I don't let them cheat off homework (lol).
Habit: I will always hold the door open for anyone because it's how I've always done it. However, this can also be a moral as it's the nice thing to do and I don't do it for any benefit toward what people think of me.
Moral: In public I will never burp or fart intentionally because I, personally, find it rude and annoying.
Mood: As psychology and experience shows, people will always be somewhat nicer when something good has happened to them. For example, if I got an A on a test I would be happier and be more willing/less grudgingly i.e. give someone a sheet of binder paper (pet peeve I guess but I noticed I judge people who need to borrow paper/pencils to be lazy and careless even though I do it too. I know double standard T___T)
At home it's a little more loose because no matter what family will love you  (that doesn't mean I don't have manners or whatever at home though)
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I just started first year philosophy and first term was all about ethics. Lol if there was one thing I learned from that abstract course, it is that there is no "right" way of doing things, b/c there are a million counter-arguments to any point involving ethics.
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On January 28 2009 16:51 jodogohoo wrote:
]
Answer: neither, i open doors to appear to others that im an awesome guy, or on reflex
but it seems to be that everybody lies about their intentions.
Answer: not always, and not everyone. Also, sometimes their intentions are clear and they don't have to lie. I want to borrow a game.
Dialogue
my friend: shit man bioshock is fucking awesome
me: fuck yeah but i don't have it
my friend: i have it
me: can i borrow it?
my friend: sure
I didn't make up some bullshit story like, my grandpa just died or some shit to make him feel pitty for me and compelled to make me feel better, i just straight up asked him for the game.
Also There is two reasons why he lent me the game, I think
1. hes my friend, he probably felt, why not doesn't really matter to me, here is a chance to be a good human being and help a friend out.
2. some intense complex plan.
[/QUOTE]
Well your example about the game doesn't relate because its not about morals or ethics really.
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On January 28 2009 17:04 il0seonpurpose wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2009 16:51 jodogohoo wrote:
]
Answer: neither, i open doors to appear to others that im an awesome guy, or on reflex Show nested quote +but it seems to be that everybody lies about their intentions.
Answer: not always, and not everyone. Also, sometimes their intentions are clear and they don't have to lie. I want to borrow a game.
Dialogue
my friend: shit man bioshock is fucking awesome
me: fuck yeah but i don't have it
my friend: i have it
me: can i borrow it?
my friend: sure
I didn't make up some bullshit story like, my grandpa just died or some shit to make him feel pitty for me and compelled to make me feel better, i just straight up asked him for the game.
Also There is two reasons why he lent me the game, I think
1. hes my friend, he probably felt, why not doesn't really matter to me, here is a chance to be a good human being and help a friend out.
2. some intense complex plan.
Well your example about the game doesn't relate because its not about morals or ethics really.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but it was the closest thing that happened to me recently, but that doesn't matter, WOOT BIOSHOCK
Habit: I will always hold the door open for anyone because it's how I've always done it. However, this can also be a moral as it's the nice thing to do and I don't do it for any benefit toward what people think of me. haha same man, i just do i cause my parents raised me that way
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On January 28 2009 16:49 il0seonpurpose wrote:
Do you open thet door for girls because its manners or because they happen to be extremely hot? Which one is it, or can your reasoning be both?
There is no impressing girls with your manners. In my opinion can either get you no points or negative points only. There is no reason for people to see you as bad manner whether they are hot or ugly.
I hold the door if I feel like holding the door.
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On January 28 2009 17:22 Fontong wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2009 16:49 il0seonpurpose wrote:
Do you open thet door for girls because its manners or because they happen to be extremely hot? Which one is it, or can your reasoning be both? There is no impressing girls with your manners. In my opinion can either get you no points or negative points only. There is no reason for people to see you as bad manner whether they are hot or ugly. I hold the door if I feel like holding the door.
thats also true
women either expect you to do it or say your sexist for doing it.
unless its part of a master plan or something crazy
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there is ALWAYS a reward, be it a material, emotional, or psychological one,( conscious or subconscious ),
if there wasn't, you wouldn't do anything.
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I suggest reading this post.
Formulation of the Pillars of Morality and Law, [Serious thread is serious][Philosophy]
by TheGhostAgent
http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=190374&st=0
I know it's on the "LOL DOTA forums", but this is actually what i would refer to if I had to make a hard decision, too bad I haven't yet.
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There seems to be a school of thought where doing things for no gain is considered virtuous. Therefore, doing things like opening doors for hot girls or shoveling driveways for neighbors is not virtuous if doing so buys you some extra moments of seeing the hot girl or a few bucks.
Perhaps there is something admirable about performing services with no expected reward, but that does not mean that the existence of such a reward makes your service bad or worthless.
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Cool, I've been thinking about this almost all my life lol. The basic and most important premise is that most of life is about engaging with life and playing the game of life. Most of reality is about playing ball, if you want to get much out of it.
There are a lot of irritatingly base things that people do without realising how base they are, and trying to dress them up as the actions of a higher being; where other species in the animal kingdom have been doing them for millions of years.
As to your basic concept it seems to be dissecting selfishness and selflessness. In my opinion, unless you are insane, you will never do an act without an intended positive outcome. All rational, unencumbered people do what they intend. Whether the outcome benefits anyone else depends on what sort of a person you are.
If you are a 'selfless' person per se, you will probably derive some sort of satisfaction and sense of pride from helping people (but there are endless reasons); and the cost of a small service in exchange for the personal reward of these feelings will always seem like a good proposition. Contrarily, if you are a 'selfish' person, these actions yield you very little enjoyment (but there are endless possible reasons too).
The issue is very complex in morality. Each situation calls for a separate analysis. Depending on the person, their moralities and personal boundaries of altruism can be very flexible; changing from person to person (ie attractive girls being treated differently to fat ones; or personalities they like different to ones they don't).
Essentially, all humans are self-serving, but because not all humans enjoy the same things, you can't all group them together into the same category of self-serving.
More after classes ^^
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On January 28 2009 16:49 il0seonpurpose wrote:
So today there was a bunch of snow that came to my city today so there was no school and also no school tomorrow! So I woke up and saw my mom shoveling some snow and decided to help her and she told me to clean the driveway and sidewalk of a good neighbor of ours; she actually pays pretty well to do chores like mowing the lawn. So I go over there and proceed to do what I have to do and when I'm done, I ring the doorbell to tell her she can close her garage, somewhat expecting her to come out the door with some money. I felt bad and said it was fine, but was it? Was I just being polite? (I ended up taking the money, didn't want to argue and besides I needed it). This got me thinking even more over other things I do and acts of kindness; do I do it out of genuine care/love or is there some other reason behind it? Most of the time, its the latter but I was wondering if there is some way you can do something because you want to do it without any reward or incentive. I always seem like I do something because there's a hidden motivation and people don't know, and think I'm genuinely nice or something. Should I just not do it then or do it because it's the right thing to do?
Do you open thet door for girls because its manners or because they happen to be extremely hot? Which one is it, or can your reasoning be both? I used to always try to impress girls but I realized that doing that kind of stuff won't get you tons of girls to like you and get laid. Thinking about this gets me thinking even more about manners in general, acting differently at home and at public, with friends and other parents. Is it right or is there that motivation for others to like you more? Sorry its confusing to read. but it seems to be that everybody lies about their intentions.
Of course you act differently in certain situations. Society expects you to and your place in it forces you to abide by these rules.
Should you shovel the snow of that nice old lady out of the goodness of your heart? In a perfect world, yes. Actually fuck it in a perfect world we'd have snow shovelling robots but thats a whole nother story. Unfortunately this is not a perfect world and you're a young kid and need some cash too. Oh guess what old lady has a bunch of leftover cash. It's fair for you to receive payment for such a task and honestly knowing that she gave you some $ probably makes that old lady way more happy than she would thinking you just did it out of the 'goodness of your heart.' Your only mistake here was saying that 'it's fine.' You need to relax and be like 'haha wheres my money!!'
Theres always a reason for everything you do. You need to realize that no one cares if they find out you have ulterior motives for your actions as long as they aren't malicious and harmful to other people. Honesty is key.
'thank you for shovelling my snow!'
wrong = 'no problem!'
right = 'YO IM SAVING UP FOR A NEW BIKE HELP PLZ'
'you're just trying to get me drunk aren't you...'
wrong = 'no no no i just like drinking...have some water if you'd like'
right = 'bitch damn right take another fucking shot'
'thank you very much for helping me with my math homework'
wrong = 'oh no problem'
right = 'you owe me hoe'
*holds door open for girl* 'thank you!'
wrong = 'no problem' or 'you're welcome'
right = 'no problem' or 'you're welcome' and stand there motionless staring at her ass as she walks away and hope she notices (ok that ones a bit creeper but LOL)
*calling someone you need a favor from but haven't spoken to in a long time*
wrong = 'oh hey man how you been. oh yeah what you been up to? yeah me too man! just checkin in and sayin hi, oh by the way...'
right = 'hi FUCK MY LIFE I NEED A FAVOR PLZ LOL'
etc.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
Or you could be me, and give such a microscopic shit about everything that you always act like yourself no matter what in every single situation even if it gets you in trouble with your parents or slapped by girls constantly. I think I have a slapping fetish actually.
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I want to kill people when they don't even make an effort to exert any kind of force on a door and a person is right behind them... Mostly when I'm that person. Usually happens with ugly people too... They're like mad at the world for making them a fat pig.
As to the actually topic... I wrote a blog here about it once  I'm not totally of the same opinion now, but it's here.
What I believe now, is that 'selflessness' comes with an apathy toward life. If you don't care about doing things for yourself, but you're not particularly mad at other people, sometimes it just makes sense to be a nice guy (due perhaps to a lifetime of social conditioning). Some people also feel a personal sense of satisfaction when helping other people, which although not selfless, is as close to selfless as makes no difference.
I open doors for people because I'd like to think they'd open the door for me. And indeed, sometimes strangers are when the distance is reasonable. I wouldn't stop opening doors people just because I'd decided "I have all the friends I'll ever need; I have a lover; etc etc" ...Just... common courtesy. Not because I'm nice or anything, but it makes for a more efficient running society if everyone acts just a little considerate. Also makes days go by quicker, and with fewer incidents.
It's hard to really think of a scenario where one is completely selfless but, I suppose if it came down to it... I'd say the idea of romance appeal to me so much, that if I had a significant other and my death were the only way she could be saved, I would do it out of love for her, despite that I'm an atheist. But then, you could turn that around and say it's a personal decision, because if I didn't I'd live in guilt, and dismay of not fulfilling my fantasy, and if I did, I'd die happy feeling like my life had a purpose during those last few moments of consciousness. If anyone does something selfless, it's probably some habitual they do that they don't understand or think about themselves, but that actually does benefit them... Like passing the salt or something... No ones thinking about the consequences... It's just automatic. But if they did refuse, they'd realise people looked at them funny, and stopped doing little things for them. That I think is possible, without being insane. Just ignorant and docile.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
If you are a 'selfless' person per se, you will probably derive some sort of satisfaction and sense of pride from helping people (but there are endless reasons); and the cost of a small service in exchange for the personal reward of these feelings will always seem like a good proposition.
Here's my reason I think for blowing thousands and thousands on people night after night when I really get nothing at all out of it other than their company (which I would have had anyways LOL).
The concept of money is so meaningless to me no matter if I have 10k or 1 million to my name I will blow 5k on people even if I only have 10k. Not because it makes them think I'm 'balling,' but it's some sick joke in my head that they get off on such expensive entertainment meanwhile it's just another bland day in my life. A comedy in my head when they try to thank me and I call them idiots and they get confused. I sit there un-entertained as usual stoic and content but am able to live vicariously through all my friends as they have a great time. I can only feel joy by seeing it in them.
Whether that makes me mega mega mega superficial/selfish or not superficial/selfish at all, I can't quite tell.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
that dota guy is lol
that there is no genuine love seems to be a favorite first epiphany for aspiring moral philosophers, and it is mistaken. it would be easy to deflect the charge by saying that genuine love is a muddy definition, and the common test of intention would allow a genuine love that is self serving in the biological or psychological sense. however, that is not interesting. what is interesting is the rejection of love in this manner, a rejection that is independent of the argument against genuine love and that reflect an egotism held independently from a stance on love. for one can dismiss pure love, even in that ham handed way, while still feeling the dismissal unfortunate. it takes a romantic to pine for love lost, and an egotist to take joy in her ill fate. the judgement on the motives of one's prior actions is retroactive, and colored by one's present feelings. it could just be that love is a momentary, but genuine feeling.
i do not believe a simple logical error of categories like "because i am the one doing the loving, i really love for me and the love is not love lalala" can generate such interest. there has to be something more to the constant moaning of the randish cult.
i open doors for girls not because individual girls are cute, but the general kind is. of course it is a biased decision, since the existence of helpfulness does not preclude the activation of other interests, and decisions are not made for one reason alone.
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Easiest way to find out if you're doing something out of the goodness of your heart is to ask yourself "Would I be doing this if the person I was doing it for would never find out it was me?" If the answer is yes, congratulations, you're a decent human being.
For the most part however, humans are pretty complex creatures. Take your video game example. This has happened to me before, and I've always had a few reasons for lending it to someone. Firstly, because they are a friend, and I want them to enjoy the game. Also, I'd like to know what they think of the game once they've tried it. Will they like the same things as me, or dislike it completely. It can lead to some interesting discussions on the game, and their ideas might help improve my game play. And probably a host of other reasons for lending someone a game.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
Oh if they only knew how selfless I am. The countless numbers of girls I have talked up on any given night and had ready to come back to my place by 2 A.M. But I never did it because I felt obligated to pay and stay till the end to take care of my minions making sure their service is good and don't get bad mannered in any way and get home safely + have best chances w/ girls.
This sacrifice has cost me many beautiful women and instead caused me to have several wake ups 'oh god fuck fuck why did I drink until 7 am again ugh fuck fuck hangover fuck who is this fucking swamp donkey next to me NOOOOOOO I DID IT AGAIN NOOOO FUCK ok fuck it plan b. i'll go play starcraft till she leaves!!!'
Oh the prices I pay, for being the Lord of the Night.
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playing devil's advocate:
Arguably, theres no "doing things out of the goodness of your heart for the sake of being good." Because the act of kindness in itself makes you feel good and is in turn a type of reward. So its possible to say that people only do kind things just to feel good. So bad people are selfish and good people are selfish too, all that matters is the action and not the intentions.
Shoveling snow for your neighbor is a good thing, asking for money is just knowing your self worth. He/she also has the freedom to thank you in other ways rather than paying you. Or perhaps in giving you money they felt good about the act of giving itself. so maybe you did ANOTHER good thing by asking for cash.
On the opposite side of the coin, Hitler's actions could have been self justified by his intentions to "clean the human race." Thats good intentions but bad action. And congrats, his name is now used as an example for the world's most detestable human being. ever.
If you're always guessing at people's bad intentions, the world would look like a very beak place indeed. Look elsewhere at more beautiful things instead, or just stop giving a fuck about what other people are thinking.
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United States22883 Posts
If your goal is to get laid, being an asshole is the better route to go.
Most of the things I do are simply because they should be done, and I'm usually very cognizant of other people. I try to avoid attention and reward for it when possible, but I don't do it to a point where it's too detrimental to my own success; I can usually make both work.
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On January 28 2009 20:16 Chef wrote:
What I believe now, is that 'selflessness' comes with an apathy toward life.
I think what you described after this definition is different to having apathy toward life. Perhaps, an ability to see past your own personal struggles and thoughts. Being apathetic toward life would mean you didn't give a shit if someone were struggling etc.
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Rekrul's first post on this is actually the first post from him that isn't about drinking and girls but the other ones do. However, all of them are good examples of his intentions. The reason why I posted this was because I was reading some bible study questions and it said something like how can you demonstrate pure love, without intentions? The point of this isn't religious really but I guess in reality there is almost no way to do things without a reward, be it some physical or mental type of thing.
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On January 29 2009 02:29 HamerD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2009 20:16 Chef wrote:
What I believe now, is that 'selflessness' comes with an apathy toward life. I think what you described after this definition is different to having apathy toward life. Perhaps, an ability to see past your own personal struggles and thoughts. Being apathetic toward life would mean you didn't give a shit if someone were struggling etc.
Apathy to your own life. As in, one who doesn't care whether he or she lives or dies. Not apathy toward all living things.
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On January 29 2009 03:06 il0seonpurpose wrote:
Rekrul's first post on this is actually the first post from him that isn't about drinking and girls but the other ones do. However, all of them are good examples of his intentions. The reason why I posted this was because I was reading some bible study questions and it said something like how can you demonstrate pure love, without intentions? The point of this isn't religious really but I guess in reality there is almost no way to do things without a reward, be it some physical or mental type of thing.
I would tell the person who asked that question that all religious people (who believe in judgement and an afterlife) have no way of being selfless because everything they do is for their own afterlife. Religions ask a lot of stupid questions. If you want brownie points from whoever asked you the question, that is religious, just tell them something like what Ragnorak said "helping people when no one will know I did" type of thing. Or helping people without asking anything in return. It's an inaccurate answer, but it will make them happy  As soon as helping someone makes you feel good, you can't say it was entirely for them. It was for both of you (and why shouldn't you do things for yourself?).
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
that is too simplistic a view of theistic thought. heaven may be an incidental reward, not the instrumental end of all action. taking the goal of christianity as 'getting into heaven' would be missing out on a whole lot
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One book that addresses this is Kierkegaard's "Works of Love". I found the language to be very dense and headache inducing (maybe because of translation) but he really examines ruthlessly what it means to love others regardless of what they have to offer you. He says its a very difficult thing to do and I agree. Like you I find myself questioning feelings I may initially call "selfless". Like I'll find myself feeling really caring and generous toward some beautiful girl and I think, would I feel the same thing if her exterior were instead some ugly male? The answer is no, and I feel like a lot of the pain in my life is self inflicted because of this highly discriminating attitude.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On January 29 2009 03:06 il0seonpurpose wrote:
Rekrul's first post on this is actually the first post from him that isn't about drinking and girls but the other ones do. However, all of them are good examples of his intentions. The reason why I posted this was because I was reading some bible study questions and it said something like how can you demonstrate pure love, without intentions? The point of this isn't religious really but I guess in reality there is almost no way to do things without a reward, be it some physical or mental type of thing.
what are my intentions
i could talk about other things but thats just no fun LOL
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Rekrul do you share how you are not really having fun in those night clubs in real life with your friends? Cause if i am your friend and I know you are not having fun, rather, simply fulfilling your duty as a friend so that I can have fun as you watching over me, I would rather drag you off somewhere else where both you and me can have fun together. like poker or starcraft for example.
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I used to tell myself that I didn't give a shit about what people thought of me, but I later realized that I wasn't being honest with myself. The only way to remedy the way my life had been running, was to pretty much just be totally blunt with everyone in my life. This stemmed from my detest towards people that act one way around one group of people and totally different around another.
I'll hold a door for pretty much anybody, because that's just what society/my parents taught me was the right thing to do. Something as simple as that doesn't really make me think too much, because I would act no differently if a hot girl was walking through the door then if a fat chick was. What am i gonna do, slam it in her face? Like some other people mentioned here, I think much of what we do as humans is to just maintain... sort of an equilibrium. If you try and convince yourself that you're only holding doors for people for your own personal gain, and you STOP holding doors for the people that you normally would, you'll disrupt that sense of normalcy, which might lead to strange looks, or even more complicated shit that you probably would rather not be involved in anyways.
Also, the fact that most of us HAVE been brought up to show common courtesy to one another, is one of the main reasons why discussions like this will probably never change how you act. To elaborate, if you read this thread and decide to completely alter your lifestyle, all the friendships and relationships that you've built are going to falter because of a change that you're making, of which you aren't even sure of the desired outcome. Thus, most of us continue to hold doors for people, simply because it's what we're used to, and it would be even more difficult to explain to someone why you suddenly started slamming the door in their face. It's almost like... you try and make a change in your life to make yourself more honest, but somehow, that change has a negative affect on all those around you, making you out to be a selfish bastard. Fuck.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On January 29 2009 05:13 rei wrote:
Rekrul do you share how you are not really having fun in those night clubs in real life with your friends? Cause if i am your friend and I know you are not having fun, rather, simply fulfilling your duty as a friend so that I can have fun as you watching over me, I would rather drag you off somewhere else where both you and me can have fun together. like poker or starcraft for example.
lol...........
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actually Rekrul is just being a bro. A really good bro, JUMPING ON THE GRENADE FOR HIS BRO'S. God damn what a hero.
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On January 28 2009 19:19 HamerD wrote:
Cool, I've been thinking about this almost all my life lol. The basic and most important premise is that most of life is about engaging with life and playing the game of life. Most of reality is about playing ball, if you want to get much out of it.
There are a lot of irritatingly base things that people do without realising how base they are, and trying to dress them up as the actions of a higher being; where other species in the animal kingdom have been doing them for millions of years.
As to your basic concept it seems to be dissecting selfishness and selflessness. In my opinion, unless you are insane, you will never do an act without an intended positive outcome. All rational, unencumbered people do what they intend. Whether the outcome benefits anyone else depends on what sort of a person you are.
If you are a 'selfless' person per se, you will probably derive some sort of satisfaction and sense of pride from helping people (but there are endless reasons); and the cost of a small service in exchange for the personal reward of these feelings will always seem like a good proposition. Contrarily, if you are a 'selfish' person, these actions yield you very little enjoyment (but there are endless possible reasons too).
The issue is very complex in morality. Each situation calls for a separate analysis. Depending on the person, their moralities and personal boundaries of altruism can be very flexible; changing from person to person (ie attractive girls being treated differently to fat ones; or personalities they like different to ones they don't).
Essentially, all humans are self-serving, but because not all humans enjoy the same things, you can't all group them together into the same category of self-serving.
More after classes ^^
I like what you said.
But...you seem to be saying it basically depends on how cynical you are, no?
haha.
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EPT
