Astrology! Just a few points about it

HamerD

United Kingdom1922 Posts

January 02 2009 20:10 GMT

I thought I'd just quickly give a small overview of a few of things I just want to be able to tell everyone I know, who insults me or makes jibes at me purely because I'm interested in astrology.

Firstly: astrology does not work out people's personalities.

The personality is a combination of genes, circumstance and astrological sign. Different for each person, but I'd say about 25%, 50%, 25% spread respectively.

Secondly: the 'tests' that have been done to 'disprove' astrology thought that astrology was about predicting someone's entire personality. They also were chock full of questions that gave both the upside and the downside of a trait (surreptitiously).

Thirdly: astrology often has sources of hocus pocus and sources of fact. I don't believe you can tell the future for anyone or anything with astrology. Some things I'll accept because I have enough evidence for them, some things I won't- there are charlatans everywhere, but that doesn't make the whole thing hocus pocus

Fourthly: astrology is not anything like religious belief. It means barely ANYTHING to most people who are interested in it, like me. It's not some special subscription service for lame ass cosplay mystics and pseudo druids. It's not useful for much other than understanding SOME personality issues with yourself and with your friends.

I only believe in any astrological concept if I have 100% evidence for it.

Fifthly: carrying on, astrology is often useful for working out where your true leanings are, when they have been covered up by circumstance (or nurture). For example, a middle of the month cancer should be quite naturally loving and caring towards his closest friends and family. However if he is guarded with everyone, and refuses to cry in front of people, and barely ever connects, it's because he will have been either forced to do it or because he has grown to do it. It will be an unhealthy and dissatisfying issue for him all his life until he accepts that he is someone who really wants to open up to his nearest and dearest.

It's therefore useful for helping understand your family members, and most importantly for helping to understand your own problems.

Sixthly: On this forum people might bring up a heated argument between Jibba and I in which I made a fool of myself in several ways, not least because I gloated about how he was obviously one star sign, when he turned out not to. The simple fact of that matter is that you can't know much about someone's star sign from a few interactions with them, and peoples' internet (guarded and often bravado-laden) personalities are a damn sight different from their true ones. That's just to cover anyone using that as a pathetic excuse to disengage with what I've put.

Seventhly: sun signs (the 12 signs of the zodiac) are not clear cut. There aren't just 12 different astrological leanings. It's like colours...they bleed into each other. There's an infinite number...but general themes will stay and that's what's important.

Eighthly: Something I find really irritating is that people aren't willing to accept the murkiness of astrology. Because it does not give a person's full personality (as it's different because of genes and circumstance) it can never really give a clean cut, on-demand, perfect analysis of someone. People are very unwilling to be open-minded about things like this. They think that because it cannot be put into one sentence, it is an automatically invalid concept. You get a lot of hostility when explaining like this to most pig-headed people.

Ninthly: astrology is always an easier concept to grasp for people who analyse...as well as people who like to put everything into a logical box. If you are one of those sorts of people, you will probably have already made assessments on everyone around you, and astrology will either fit or conflict...and you can test the waters so to speak. If you are completely unaware of peoples' personalities around you, and you don't pick up on any patterns of behaviour, you will find it almost impossible to understand how it works.

And finally...tenthly...astrology is a LOT easier to work out with kids than with adults. Especially men between 16-25. They take such control of their outward personality towards people, and they repress so much of their nature, often they will strike a complete discord with their sun sign in several key areas. That doesn't disprove astrology though, it just shows they are repressed as fuck. You see it all the time really, especially in teenagers. Repression is a really big and obvious thing if you just keep your eyes out for it.

I just felt like putting that out there. Now comes the shitstorm indubitably...

ssj114

Afghanistan461 Posts

January 02 2009 20:15 GMT

You are best.

MoRe_mInErAls

Canada1210 Posts

January 02 2009 20:16 GMT

So the uncertainty of astrology contributes to its authenticity?

I only believe in any astrological concept if I have 100% evidence for it.

What is an example of this 100% evidence?

Frits

11782 Posts

January 02 2009 20:29 GMT

The personality is a combination of genes, circumstance and astrological sign.

There is clear evidence for heritability and environmentality regarding to personality, how exactly is astrological sign of influence and where can I find the proof for this. And with proof I mean empirical data that has been tested and shown significant differences between different signs and correlations between identical astrological signs.

Can you do a summary of things that tell something about me, I believe Im a lion.

And what do you have to say about Dawkins' comments regarding astrology;

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7218293233140975017

What bugs me here is that you just made an estimate of heritability and environmentality without any data. What the hell can you possibly base this on? Do you have any idea how heritability is even calculated? It's funny how you mention this because I was JUST studying a chapter in my personality psychology textbook (Larsen-Buss: Personality Psychology: Domains of Knowledge about Human Nature, Third edition. Chapter 6) that's about biological vs environmental factors and Im just dying to find out where you pulled those statistics from. An estimation? Are you kidding me here? You realize that an estimation has 0 scientifical significance right?

FirstBorn

Romania3955 Posts

January 02 2009 20:31 GMT

On January 03 2009 05:16 MoRe_mInErAls wrote:

Show nested quote +

What is an example of this 100% evidence?

Taking an astrological concept and applying it to your personality.

Can't really add anything more than what is already stated by the OP. I myself have found quite an interest point in astrology and even if it's not 100% accurate in all the cases, it's helped me see quite a lot of pattern around me.

Lucktar

United States526 Posts

January 02 2009 20:40 GMT

If enough bullshit is written about your sign, you'll find some that sounds like it applies to you. That doesn't make any of it real or rational.

Lemonwalrus

United States5465 Posts

January 02 2009 20:42 GMT

So the fact that it is right sometimes and wrong sometimes doesn't mean that it is bullshit, it just means that when it is wrong, the people involved are broken in some way?

I think I will stick with real science.

ToT)OjKa(

Korea (South)2437 Posts

January 02 2009 20:43 GMT

IMMA SCORPIO YO ASS

JeeJee

Canada5652 Posts

January 02 2009 20:46 GMT

i can't tell if OP is serious so i'll respond in kind:

"I'm a Sagittarius, which probably tells you way more than you need to know.

Yes, it tells us that you participate in the mass cultural delusion that the sun’s apparent position relative to arbitrarily defined constellations at the time of your birth somehow affects your personality." -tbbt

Frits

11782 Posts

January 02 2009 21:00 GMT

#10

There's not a single study on the validity of astrology in our library because it's generally accepted as bullshit in science. I did find this gem though about the people who believe in astrology:

And it just so happens that you seem to fit one of those descriptions perfectly, OUCH.

NrG.ZaM

United States267 Posts

January 02 2009 21:00 GMT

#11

So, astrology has just as big an impact on me as my genes do, and it isn't all hocus pocus religious mumbo jumbo. There's also 100% evidence for astrological concepts (not stated in post), but it's also very "murky."

Well I'm convinced to believe in astrology, just a quick question though:

How exactly does it all work? What force acts upon me from the heavens, telling me to shed tears in front of others?

fight_or_flight

United States3988 Posts

January 02 2009 21:00 GMT

#12

To everyone saying they need hard, irrefutable evidence of something (astrology) before they believe it are misguided imo. Most of the mystical fields later became scientific fields. Alchemy became chemistry, astrology because astronomy, medicine men became doctors, etc. The point is that just because there is not hard evidence of something or it is not completely understood, doesn't necessarily mean its not true. In fact, there will always more known on the fringes than in modern science because there will always be some things that are true but not proven.

I'm not arguing for what the OP is saying though, I don't really believe what he is saying actually (try to convince me!).

Frits

11782 Posts

January 02 2009 21:05 GMT

#13

On January 03 2009 06:00 fight_or_flight wrote:
To everyone saying they need hard, irrefutable evidence of something (astrology) before they believe it are misguided imo. Most of the mystical fields later became scientific fields. Alchemy became chemistry, astrology because astronomy, medicine men became doctors, etc. The point is that just because there is not hard evidence of something or it is not completely understood, doesn't necessarily mean its not true. In fact, there will always more known on the fringes than in modern science because there will always be some things that are true but not proven.

I'm not arguing for what the OP is saying though, I don't really believe what he is saying actually (try to convince me!).

You want me to name the 100000000000000000000 fields that didn't became scientific fields? Are you kidding me here? By your argument it's a million times more likely to be bullshit than valid. There's a reason we use evidence.

I get your main point, that we're being close minded, this is not the case however, there just doesn't seem to be anything that points toward astrology being more significant than some random environmental factor.

Besides, doesn't it bother anyone that horoscopes basically have some base of truth to them for anyone that reads them? It completely depends on how you choose to interpret them, there's a reason it's so vague: to give the illusion of validity. It's just like cold reading and that stuff, people forget the bullshit and cling to the 1 little accurate point of the reading. Ofcourse astrologists can say that it's slightly different for everyone, but honestly..... if I randomly re-arrange the months of a horoscope will you be able to arrange them correctly again? Fuck no.

fight_or_flight

United States3988 Posts

January 02 2009 21:06 GMT

#14

On January 03 2009 06:00 Frits wrote:
There's not a single study on the validity of astrology in our library because it's generally accepted as bullshit in science. I did find this gem though about the people who believe in astrology:
+ Show Spoiler +

And it just so happens that you seem to fit one of those descriptions perfectly, OUCH.

I think in these circumstances you should not rely on studies to determine what your opinion is. The most important thing to rely in is your own critical thinking and intuition, based on your own personal experiences. Intuition is harnessing your subconscious mind, and it should not be ignored because it is actually more rational than your conscious mind. Of course looking up studies is an important part of critical thinking.

fight_or_flight

United States3988 Posts

January 02 2009 21:10 GMT

#15

On January 03 2009 06:05 Frits wrote:
You want me to name the 100000000000000000000 fields that didn't became scientific fields? Are you kidding me here? By your argument it's a million times more likely to be bullshit than valid. There's a reason we use evidence.

I think many fields are still waiting to become scientific (such as psychic/telepathy....such as the global consciousness project).

Besides, doesn't it bother anyone that horoscopes basically have some base of truth to them for anyone that reads them? It completely depends on how you choose to interpret them, there's a reason it's so vague: to give the illusion of validity.

Agree with you here.

Frits

11782 Posts

January 02 2009 21:11 GMT

#16

On January 03 2009 06:06 fight_or_flight wrote:

Show nested quote +

I already presented plenty of arguments, Im not basing my opinion of astrology on this study. I just thought it was a funny piece that completely discredits HamerD, not astrology.

KwarK

United States42387 Posts

January 02 2009 21:12 GMT

#17

Oh HamerD. When will you learn?

PanN

United States2828 Posts

January 02 2009 21:23 GMT

#18

On January 03 2009 06:10 fight_or_flight wrote:

Show nested quote +

I think many fields are still waiting to become scientific (such as psychic/telepathy....such as the global consciousness project).

Show nested quote +

Agree with you here.

You are so fucking unbelievable its sad.

"Most of the mystical fields later became scientific fields. Alchemy became chemistry, astrology because astronomy, medicine men became doctors, etc."

These comparisons are hilarious.

KwarK

United States42387 Posts

January 02 2009 21:28 GMT

#19

HamerD, I'll see your astrology and raise you Numerology. It's older, vaguer and actually less logical (in as much as an arbitrary system of number reduction effects our lives even less than where the stars appear to be in relation to us).

+ Show Spoiler +

Hi Bjork,

If you'd like to know what's in store for you in 2009, this may
be the most important email you'll read all year.

While numerology is an amazing tool for analyzing character,
abilities, psychological interests and destinies, perhaps its'
most interesting and practical application is analyzing your
life cycles, telling you just what to expect in the year ahead.

Remember, to calculate your Personal Year Number you simply
add the number of your month of birth to the number of your
day of birth, then add the number you get to the numbers of
this year, 2009.

For example, looking at my own chart, I was born on November
20th.

Adding these up, we get

11
20
2009
-----
2040

Adding 2+0+4+0 gives 6, a year indicating progress and
financial advancement, as major career opportunities present
themselves.

It's also a something of a challenging year, but fortunately my
numerology chart tells me exactly how to handle it. For example,
I'll need to pay attention to my responsibilities, and to the needs
of my family and friends.

It's a good year for me to resolve any tensions, and a good year for
love and romance.

When I do a full numerology reading Bjork, I also look at each
individual month throughout the year.

For myself, January 2009 is a "7" Personal Month in a "6" Personal
Year, telling me (amongst many other things) that it's a good time
to enjoy some much needed quiet after last year's hectic pace.

(Note: what most people don't realize is the interactions between
personal months and personal years, so a "7" Personal Month in a
"6" Personal Year is NOT just like a "7" Personal Month in any
other year).

However Bjork, I don't stop at just the Personal Years and
Personal Months ... because next, I'll break it down day-by-day.

For example: today (January 2nd), my chart tells me that it's a good day
for learning, as well as a day to exercise some tact and wisdom.

Tomorrow (January 3rd), will be a day of progress for me, and a day
to focus on money matters.

Anyway, enough about MY chart Bjork... I'm sure you are
more interested in YOUR numbers.

Because it's the start of a new year (indicating a new Personal Year
in your numerology chart), now is a particularly good time for you
to have a complete numerology chart done ... revealing just what's
in store for you in the day, months, and years ahead.

In this chart, you'll get your personal years and months for the
next nine years (in MUCH greater detail that what I've done here),
as well as day-by-day calculations for every day until December 31st,
2010.

If you've never had a full numerology chart before, chances are you'll
look back to today as being a major turning point in your life.

Please see here for full details Bjork:

http://www.123Numerology.com/special/

Yours in Numbers,
Blair
123Numerology.com

zer0das

United States8519 Posts

January 02 2009 21:32 GMT

#20

I'm wearing my what hat.

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