On January 03 2009 06:32 zer0das wrote:
I'm wearing my what hat.
I'm wearing my what hat.
Knowing how these types of threads always turn up, you should bust out your tinfoil hat as well.
THE FREEMASONS ARE COMING!
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PanN
United States2828 Posts
On January 03 2009 06:32 zer0das wrote: I'm wearing my what hat. Knowing how these types of threads always turn up, you should bust out your tinfoil hat as well. THE FREEMASONS ARE COMING! | ||
skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
On January 03 2009 05:16 MoRe_mInErAls wrote: 1. So the uncertainty of astrology contributes to its authenticity? 2. What is an example of this 100% evidence? 1. That's pretty twisty turny mate. If you are even being slightly serious, then no...you just combined a concept I presented (that astrology shows only one factor of a personality) with the word authenticity. I never said the former led to the latter. 2. All of my friends and family conform almost entirely with their star signs is my personal evidence. | ||
Insane Lane
United States397 Posts
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Lemonwalrus
United States5465 Posts
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
On January 03 2009 06:23 PanN wrote: Show nested quote + On January 03 2009 06:10 fight_or_flight wrote: On January 03 2009 06:05 Frits wrote: You want me to name the 100000000000000000000 fields that didn't became scientific fields? Are you kidding me here? By your argument it's a million times more likely to be bullshit than valid. There's a reason we use evidence. I think many fields are still waiting to become scientific (such as psychic/telepathy....such as the global consciousness project). Besides, doesn't it bother anyone that horoscopes basically have some base of truth to them for anyone that reads them? It completely depends on how you choose to interpret them, there's a reason it's so vague: to give the illusion of validity. Agree with you here. You are so fucking unbelievable its sad. "Most of the mystical fields later became scientific fields. Alchemy became chemistry, astrology because astronomy, medicine men became doctors, etc." These comparisons are hilarious. How so? Do you think the Mayans were using newtons laws to predict eclipses? Do you think a chemist invented gunpowder by calculating the formula? Do you wonder why modern day medical researchers go into jungles and try to extract the active ingredients of roots that people in asia have been using for thousands of years? Why does the word chemistry come from the egyptian word meaning earth? Go to wikipedia and read about the origins and history of the words "medicine", "chemistry", and "astronomy". On January 03 2009 06:35 Lemonwalrus wrote: Alchemy didn't become chemistry because we stopped looking for evidence and just believed what people said, it became chemistry because we looked deeper, asked more questions, and discovered what was true and what wasn't. So saying we shouldn't challenge something new and different is counter to the way science works. It needs to be challenged, and live up to those challenges, in order to be taken seriously. Astrology has been around for a long fucking time without a shred of actual evidence to support it. I'm not saying don't challenge it (I said use critical thinking actually), I'm saying don't dismiss it because it hasn't be published in Nature. | ||
HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
On January 03 2009 05:29 Frits wrote: There is clear evidence for heritability and environmentality regarding to personality, how exactly is astrological sign of influence and where can I find the proof for this. And with proof I mean empirical data that has been tested and shown significant differences between different signs and correlations between identical astrological signs. Well I never found research regarding heritability and environmentality, I never needed to. It was obvious to me, and so is astrology. There ain't no empirical data in credited tests...and the reason for that is that it's impossible to test. The other two personality affectors have their effects just as early as astrological personality affectors. This isn't a concept I want to thrust on people, because it's not the sort of thing that has a concrete academic study behind it, I mean clearly it doesn't. On January 03 2009 05:29 Frits wrote: And what do you have to say about Dawkins' comments regarding astrology; I really enjoy Richard Dawkins' wisdom...really. I've watched almost every video on his website, and read two of his books. I personally think that Dawkins, like a lot of people, just misses the point of what astrology is. He also conflates the hocus pocus horoscopes with simple astrological profiling. He considers it all to be nuts. And I really appreciate his opinion but just think he doesn't approach it in the right way for understanding astrology. It annoys me that he lumps religion in with astrology. | ||
Frits
11782 Posts
On January 03 2009 06:33 skyglow1 wrote: To me, thinking that the heavenly bodies have some sort of influence on humans is incredibly self-centered, as if we're important enough that stars/sun/moon/planets get involved in our lives. I don't think it's self-centered, on the contrary, you're basically admitting that the heavenly bodies have some kind of incredible power over us and take a huge part in the shaping of our personality. In that aspect it's not even that far fetched, (sun)light after all has a the effect of lightening our mood. The idea that the energy of the stars can influence us is not that rediculous, gravity influences us doesn't it? What's rediculous is the arrangement of the stars of having an influence on the shaping of personality, there's nothing about it that makes sense. | ||
PanN
United States2828 Posts
On January 03 2009 06:35 fight_or_flight wrote: Show nested quote + On January 03 2009 06:23 PanN wrote: On January 03 2009 06:10 fight_or_flight wrote: On January 03 2009 06:05 Frits wrote: You want me to name the 100000000000000000000 fields that didn't became scientific fields? Are you kidding me here? By your argument it's a million times more likely to be bullshit than valid. There's a reason we use evidence. I think many fields are still waiting to become scientific (such as psychic/telepathy....such as the global consciousness project). Besides, doesn't it bother anyone that horoscopes basically have some base of truth to them for anyone that reads them? It completely depends on how you choose to interpret them, there's a reason it's so vague: to give the illusion of validity. Agree with you here. You are so fucking unbelievable its sad. "Most of the mystical fields later became scientific fields. Alchemy became chemistry, astrology because astronomy, medicine men became doctors, etc." These comparisons are hilarious. How so? Do you think the Mayans were using newtons laws to predict eclipses? Do you think a chemist invented gunpowder by calculating the formula? Do you wonder why modern day medical researchers go into jungles and try to extract the active ingredients of roots that people in asia have been using for thousands of years? Why does the word chemistry come from the egyptian word meaning earth? Go to wikipedia and read about the origins and history of the words "medicine", "chemistry", and "astronomy". Don't try to argue with me after you compared astrology and astronomy. | ||
DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On January 03 2009 05:10 HamerD wrote: Eighthly: Something I find really irritating is that people aren't willing to accept the murkiness of astrology. Because it does not give a person's full personality (as it's different because of genes and circumstance) it can never really give a clean cut, on-demand, perfect analysis of someone. People are very unwilling to be open-minded about things like this. They think that because it cannot be put into one sentence, it is an automatically invalid concept. You get a lot of hostility when explaining like this to most pig-headed people. It's invalid scientifically. Because it's murky it's fairly simple to project what you want into it, recalling only experiences where you exhibited behaviors supported by your "sign". Much like prophecy, religion, and other non-scientific ways of explaining the world and the behavior of people, it is intentionally vague. Really I could take any sign and attribute it to my personality. | ||
fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
On January 03 2009 06:43 PanN wrote: Show nested quote + On January 03 2009 06:35 fight_or_flight wrote: On January 03 2009 06:23 PanN wrote: On January 03 2009 06:10 fight_or_flight wrote: On January 03 2009 06:05 Frits wrote: You want me to name the 100000000000000000000 fields that didn't became scientific fields? Are you kidding me here? By your argument it's a million times more likely to be bullshit than valid. There's a reason we use evidence. I think many fields are still waiting to become scientific (such as psychic/telepathy....such as the global consciousness project). Besides, doesn't it bother anyone that horoscopes basically have some base of truth to them for anyone that reads them? It completely depends on how you choose to interpret them, there's a reason it's so vague: to give the illusion of validity. Agree with you here. You are so fucking unbelievable its sad. "Most of the mystical fields later became scientific fields. Alchemy became chemistry, astrology because astronomy, medicine men became doctors, etc." These comparisons are hilarious. How so? Do you think the Mayans were using newtons laws to predict eclipses? Do you think a chemist invented gunpowder by calculating the formula? Do you wonder why modern day medical researchers go into jungles and try to extract the active ingredients of roots that people in asia have been using for thousands of years? Why does the word chemistry come from the egyptian word meaning earth? Go to wikipedia and read about the origins and history of the words "medicine", "chemistry", and "astronomy". Don't try to argue with me after you compared astrology and astronomy. I said they have the same origins. Looking up the definition for astrology even lists astronomy as an (obsolete) synonym. You seem to be thinking I'm comparing modern astronomy with modern astrology, which I'm not, I'm simply saying that fringe areas can and do develop into respected sciences. (implying they should not simply be dismissed) | ||
HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
On January 03 2009 05:40 Lucktar wrote: If enough bullshit is written about your sign, you'll find some that sounds like it applies to you. That doesn't make any of it real or rational. It's annoying to have to say it, but you'll have to take my word for it that astrology will give you some nice times when it's either on or off, yes or no. Half a dozen star signs have a proclusion to have a large group of friends, and t'other half want a small amount. There is a complete different...colour...to taurus as there is to pisces. Annoying though. I accept your cynicism, but maybe have a look at some star sign explanations and look at the differences. | ||
PanN
United States2828 Posts
On January 03 2009 06:47 fight_or_flight wrote: Show nested quote + On January 03 2009 06:43 PanN wrote: On January 03 2009 06:35 fight_or_flight wrote: On January 03 2009 06:23 PanN wrote: On January 03 2009 06:10 fight_or_flight wrote: On January 03 2009 06:05 Frits wrote: You want me to name the 100000000000000000000 fields that didn't became scientific fields? Are you kidding me here? By your argument it's a million times more likely to be bullshit than valid. There's a reason we use evidence. I think many fields are still waiting to become scientific (such as psychic/telepathy....such as the global consciousness project). Besides, doesn't it bother anyone that horoscopes basically have some base of truth to them for anyone that reads them? It completely depends on how you choose to interpret them, there's a reason it's so vague: to give the illusion of validity. Agree with you here. You are so fucking unbelievable its sad. "Most of the mystical fields later became scientific fields. Alchemy became chemistry, astrology because astronomy, medicine men became doctors, etc." These comparisons are hilarious. How so? Do you think the Mayans were using newtons laws to predict eclipses? Do you think a chemist invented gunpowder by calculating the formula? Do you wonder why modern day medical researchers go into jungles and try to extract the active ingredients of roots that people in asia have been using for thousands of years? Why does the word chemistry come from the egyptian word meaning earth? Go to wikipedia and read about the origins and history of the words "medicine", "chemistry", and "astronomy". Don't try to argue with me after you compared astrology and astronomy. I said they have the same origins. Looking up the definition for astrology even lists astronomy as an (obsolete) synonym. You seem to be thinking I'm comparing modern astronomy with modern astrology, which I'm not, I'm simply saying that fringe areas can and do develop into respected sciences. (implying they should not simply be dismissed) No, there are no "fringe areas" between the two, no. | ||
HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
On January 03 2009 06:42 Frits wrote: Show nested quote + On January 03 2009 06:33 skyglow1 wrote: To me, thinking that the heavenly bodies have some sort of influence on humans is incredibly self-centered, as if we're important enough that stars/sun/moon/planets get involved in our lives. I don't think it's self-centered, on the contrary, you're basically admitting that the heavenly bodies have some kind of incredible power over us and take a huge part in the shaping of our personality. In that aspect it's not even that far fetched, (sun)light after all has a the effect of lightening our mood. The idea that the energy of the stars can influence us is not that rediculous, gravity influences us doesn't it? What's rediculous is the arrangement of the stars of having an influence on the shaping of personality, there's nothing about it that makes sense. Actually can I just put paid to this specific fallacy right now. I don't believe any of that crap. I don't believe the arrangement of the stars affects anything. For me, and for the ancient Chinese and Mayans all the way up through all (comparatively) credible astrology; it's about patterns that are repeated in nature. It's saying, 'these patterns exist everywhere, from the molecular level through to the societal level through to the atmospheric level and through to the arrangement of the stars in space. It's saying that the random locations of the planets and all the matter spewed out by the big bang are all just manifestations of a pattern repeated in all existence. The concept of astrology is proven from the evidence you can find for yourself rather than the science, because if there is any science, it's a very far out concept (very closely related to chaos). | ||
Frits
11782 Posts
On January 03 2009 06:40 HamerD wrote: Show nested quote + On January 03 2009 05:29 Frits wrote: The personality is a combination of genes, circumstance and astrological sign. There is clear evidence for heritability and environmentality regarding to personality, how exactly is astrological sign of influence and where can I find the proof for this. And with proof I mean empirical data that has been tested and shown significant differences between different signs and correlations between identical astrological signs. Well I never found research regarding heritability and environmentality, I never needed to. It was obvious to me, and so is astrology. There ain't no empirical data in credited tests...and the reason for that is that it's impossible to test. The other two personality affectors have their effects just as early as astrological personality affectors. This isn't a concept I want to thrust on people, because it's not the sort of thing that has a concrete academic study behind it, I mean clearly it doesn't. Show nested quote + On January 03 2009 05:29 Frits wrote: And what do you have to say about Dawkins' comments regarding astrology; I really enjoy Richard Dawkins' wisdom...really. I've watched almost every video on his website, and read two of his books. I personally think that Dawkins, like a lot of people, just misses the point of what astrology is. He also conflates the hocus pocus horoscopes with simple astrological profiling. He considers it all to be nuts. And I really appreciate his opinion but just think he doesn't approach it in the right way for understanding astrology. It annoys me that he lumps religion in with astrology. You're not exactly helping with trying to get people to understand it. So far all your points are incredibly vague and based on absolutely nothing. You say you have 100% evidence (evidence is the tool you use to prove something) and then you say that it's impossible to test. If it's impossible to verify how can you know it is valid? Without verification all that remains is logical reasoning and I wouldn't say that astrologers are on the winning side here when you consider that astrologers are a) unsatisfied with the implications of real science b) people who are sick, uneducated or lonely | ||
HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
On January 03 2009 06:45 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Show nested quote + On January 03 2009 05:10 HamerD wrote: Eighthly: Something I find really irritating is that people aren't willing to accept the murkiness of astrology. Because it does not give a person's full personality (as it's different because of genes and circumstance) it can never really give a clean cut, on-demand, perfect analysis of someone. People are very unwilling to be open-minded about things like this. They think that because it cannot be put into one sentence, it is an automatically invalid concept. You get a lot of hostility when explaining like this to most pig-headed people. It's invalid scientifically. Because it's murky it's fairly simple to project what you want into it, recalling only experiences where you exhibited behaviors supported by your "sign". Much like prophecy, religion, and other non-scientific ways of explaining the world and the behavior of people, it is intentionally vague. Really I could take any sign and attribute it to my personality. You could definitely take half a dozen. The zodiac splits in half then splits into quarters (fire, water, wind, earth), then into 12's. It's annoying again, to say it, but like with the other guy; once you have any experience of astrology you'll realise you really cannot project yourself into some star signs. At least from any credible source of astrology information. | ||
zer0das
United States8519 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On January 03 2009 06:51 HamerD wrote: Show nested quote + On January 03 2009 06:42 Frits wrote: On January 03 2009 06:33 skyglow1 wrote: To me, thinking that the heavenly bodies have some sort of influence on humans is incredibly self-centered, as if we're important enough that stars/sun/moon/planets get involved in our lives. I don't think it's self-centered, on the contrary, you're basically admitting that the heavenly bodies have some kind of incredible power over us and take a huge part in the shaping of our personality. In that aspect it's not even that far fetched, (sun)light after all has a the effect of lightening our mood. The idea that the energy of the stars can influence us is not that rediculous, gravity influences us doesn't it? What's rediculous is the arrangement of the stars of having an influence on the shaping of personality, there's nothing about it that makes sense. Actually can I just put paid to this specific fallacy right now. I don't believe any of that crap. I don't believe the arrangement of the stars affects anything. For me, and for the ancient Chinese and Mayans all the way up through all (comparatively) credible astrology; it's about patterns that are repeated in nature. It's saying, 'these patterns exist everywhere, from the molecular level through to the societal level through to the atmospheric level and through to the arrangement of the stars in space. It's saying that the random locations of the planets and all the matter spewed out by the big bang are all just manifestations of a pattern repeated in all existence. The concept of astrology is proven from the evidence you can find for yourself rather than the science, because if there is any science, it's a very far out concept (very closely related to chaos). Nothing can be proven by anecdotal evidence. If you're trying to prove something without science, than you're not proving anything. | ||
PanN
United States2828 Posts
On January 03 2009 06:53 HamerD wrote: Show nested quote + On January 03 2009 06:45 DoctorHelvetica wrote: On January 03 2009 05:10 HamerD wrote: Eighthly: Something I find really irritating is that people aren't willing to accept the murkiness of astrology. Because it does not give a person's full personality (as it's different because of genes and circumstance) it can never really give a clean cut, on-demand, perfect analysis of someone. People are very unwilling to be open-minded about things like this. They think that because it cannot be put into one sentence, it is an automatically invalid concept. You get a lot of hostility when explaining like this to most pig-headed people. It's invalid scientifically. Because it's murky it's fairly simple to project what you want into it, recalling only experiences where you exhibited behaviors supported by your "sign". Much like prophecy, religion, and other non-scientific ways of explaining the world and the behavior of people, it is intentionally vague. Really I could take any sign and attribute it to my personality. You could definitely take half a dozen. The zodiac splits in half then splits into quarters (fire, water, wind, earth), then into 12's. It's annoying again, to say it, but like with the other guy; once you have any experience of astrology you'll realise you really cannot project yourself into some star signs. At least from any credible source of astrology information. So, what you're saying, the more you read your cold-written signs, the more comfortable you'll become with one. Cold reading. | ||
skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On January 03 2009 06:42 Frits wrote: Show nested quote + On January 03 2009 06:33 skyglow1 wrote: To me, thinking that the heavenly bodies have some sort of influence on humans is incredibly self-centered, as if we're important enough that stars/sun/moon/planets get involved in our lives. I don't think it's self-centered, on the contrary, you're basically admitting that the heavenly bodies have some kind of incredible power over us and take a huge part in the shaping of our personality. In that aspect it's not even that far fetched, (sun)light after all has a the effect of lightening our mood. The idea that the energy of the stars can influence us is not that rediculous, gravity influences us doesn't it? What's rediculous is the arrangement of the stars of having an influence on the shaping of personality, there's nothing about it that makes sense. How am I admitting that? Btw I don't believe in any of that sort of stuff. I'm just pointing out how self centered it seems to me. Yup it's entirely possible that our sun has some sort influence, but I highly doubt it is in the way of affecting personalities and such. The claim seems to be that the month you were born in has an influence on your behaviour in later years (correct me if I'm wrong), and I can't even begin to think up of a possible mechanism for how this would work using varying sunlight from the sun. If anything, living on different lattitudes would have a much greater importance than the month in which you were born in regards to sunlight. If we consider gravity, then the moon should be of much more importance than the sun and stars. You'd still be hard pressed to think up of a way taht gravity can affect personality, considering how minute the variations are. Yeah the arrangement of stars influencing our lives is just outright nonsense to me. I think the problem I have with astrology is that it doesn't usually attempt to explain why these supposedly observe phenomena happen. In normal sciences there's the need to take the step and try to come up with a hypothesis, rather than just being happy with the observation. | ||
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