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On January 03 2009 10:11 Lucktar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2009 09:48 HamerD wrote:On January 03 2009 09:38 Lucktar wrote:
The thing is, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you can explain away data that doesn't fit your model by stating "you don't know yourself' or 'you are repressed,' of course it's going to seem plausible. If your belief system allows you to dismiss anything that challenges those beliefs, then it's unassailable, but hardly rational. Look it's hard to argue this with people. There's no real point IN arguing. Either you can see that astrology makes sense to your personality and relations or it's just a bunch of gobble de gook. Like I say there's like a maximum of 10% incorrect about all the sun signs of my family...either that's me being insanely, irrationally whimsical and fantastical, or correct. As far as I am concerned, the latter is proven by the fact that it's useful in dealing with relationships and myself! You should read some probability theory. The fact that your family fits their sun signs is more or less irrelevant. If you have a set of non-contradictory conditions, some one will meet them all. The question is whether the proportion of people who meet these conditions is larger than the proportion who don't, and whether the distance is statistically significant. All studies that have examined these theories have concluded that there is no significant correlation whatsoever. Believe in astrology if you want to, but please don't pretend that it's rational, because it isn't.
THANK YOU.
Look hammer, I even asked my gf, roomate, and brother, individually to come to the pc to show them something.
I even told them I believe in astrology before hand, and thought that it was so interesting because it matched me so closely.
Each individual just looked at me with disbelief, almost feeling bad, and said something along the lines of "sorry, it doesn't match me...".
They laughed hard when I explained what I did.
It's all lies.
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On January 03 2009 10:11 Lucktar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2009 09:48 HamerD wrote:On January 03 2009 09:38 Lucktar wrote:
The thing is, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you can explain away data that doesn't fit your model by stating "you don't know yourself' or 'you are repressed,' of course it's going to seem plausible. If your belief system allows you to dismiss anything that challenges those beliefs, then it's unassailable, but hardly rational. Look it's hard to argue this with people. There's no real point IN arguing. Either you can see that astrology makes sense to your personality and relations or it's just a bunch of gobble de gook. Like I say there's like a maximum of 10% incorrect about all the sun signs of my family...either that's me being insanely, irrationally whimsical and fantastical, or correct. As far as I am concerned, the latter is proven by the fact that it's useful in dealing with relationships and myself! I have examined these theories have concluded that there is no significant correlation whatsoever. Believe in astrology if you want to, but please don't pretend that it's rational, because it isn't.
Fair enough. For me and everyone I am involved with it is rational, obviously. But yes maybe I am the one in a million for whom it just happens to be the fact that everyone even remotely connected to me exhibits traits very similar to their signs. Thanks for at least looking  . But it is rational for me. I have evidence, I have theory, I have belief. You don't have evidence, you don't have belief. Both rational.
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On January 03 2009 10:10 Frits wrote:
HamerD my birthday is august 6 can you please do an astrology reading. Im curious what you'll predict.
Leo means you are naturally a leader, creative and broad-minded. Also it means that, because you are a lion who keeps his pride in strict control, bossy, condescending, pompous and occasionally vituperative.
http://www.astrology-online.com/leo.htm
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Mine is January 30th, what does it say?
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Friendly and humanitarian
Honest and loyal
Original and inventive
Independent and intellectual
On the dark side....
Intractable and contrary
Perverse and unpredictable
Unemotional and detached
Good ol' Air signs.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
- instead of arguing with him, try to understand him: astrology is just a manifestation magical thinking and delusional thinking
- it's pretty much hard wired to our brain, it has had its benefits and its risks if not disadvantages
- overall evolution must have assigned it some value because we still carry it with us; I suspect it has something to do with the fact that magical thinking can increase our survival in situations of low survival chance, where we need can take quick action despite overwhelming odds and not fall into hesitation or lack of action because logic or reason finds no solution.
- anyway, just a different perspective; instead of arguing, investigate why we are all still attracted to and still use magical thinking; afterward you will probably laugh at him as much as yourself..
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On January 03 2009 10:19 HamerD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2009 10:10 Frits wrote:
HamerD my birthday is august 6 can you please do an astrology reading. Im curious what you'll predict. Leo means you are naturally a leader, creative and broad-minded. Also it means that, because you are a lion who keeps his pride in strict control, bossy, condescending, pompous and occasionally vituperative. http://www.astrology-online.com/leo.htm
See now the problem with that definition and those traits are that they are so broad that they're even contradicting eachother at parts.
When you read that stuff I notice myself saying "Hey, I do like kids, and I am very open minded." But I don't find myself saying, oh this is all wrong, it just doesn't stick. Even though there are way more things that don't describe me on that page than do.
Other things:
Their faults can be as large in scale as their virtues, and an excessively negative Leonian can be one of the most unpleasant human beings imaginable,
Right so now we have a distinction between positive leonians and negative leonians. The problem here is that we're talking about the opposites of one of the big 5 personality traits. So a leonian is not defined by agreeableness-antagonism. But if you keep going you will come to the conclusion that basically any personality fits the page in some ways. Granted: the somewhat general theme you can find is extraversion, but it is hinted at indirectly and subtly, so that it fits introverts as well. Leadership generally correlates with extraversion for example, but not very strongly, introverts can be leaders as well.
-Marriages might fail: Fact: 40% of american marriages fail.
I could go on and on, there are infinite points of criticism about that description, my point is: Everything applies to everyone, if you had given me another page I would've had the same reaction. The problem with this is that this means that what you consider to be evidence, should logically not be allowed to use as evidence. The means you have of obtaining evidence are biased on remembering only the valid points. Another thing about cold reading: You can fool yourself just as hard as you can fool someone else if you don't look at the big picture; that objectively speaking only a small portion is correct which isn't bigger than it would be by simple chance/guessing. That's what frustrates many people here, to us it is completely obvious that it's simple guesswork, but you don't realize it yourself because your theory makes you feel as if you aren't guessing.
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On January 03 2009 10:54 Physician wrote:- instead of arguing with him, try to understand him: magical thinking - it's pretty much hard wired to our brain, it has had its benefits and its risks if not disadvantages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinkinghttp://skepdic.com/astrolgy.html- overall evolution must have assigned it some value because we still carry it with us; I suspect it has something to do with the fact that magical thinking can increase our survival in situations of low survival chance, where we need can take quick action despite overwhelming odds and no fall into hesitation of inaction because logic or reason finds no solution. anyway, just a different perspective..
its not directly beneficial, just very comforting to our brains. we're naturally hardwired to be inquisitive, we want to understand how things work because prehumans who had that trait were more likely to be the people who figured out fire and the wheel and whatnot. of course when something was complex enough that early humans couldnt figure it out, they were kinda fucked. so they made up stuff about gods and stars and other bullshit to explain it.
so no, its not a good thing. the fact that his idiocy has an explanation does not make it ok.
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I dont think anyone actually took the time to read any of the original post :S Either you did and just completely missed the points made, or you just saw the word "astrology" and decided to join in on the bashing of HamerD which is already excessive and extremely boring to read (only ONE 'm' in the name you guys). You all have to stop reading cosmo girl for your information on astrology unfortunately  I know you all love to look at the man of the month and then check his birthday and do that whole relationship sign connection "astrology" in the back of the magazine but it definitely wont help you with any issue you're having on this subject at the moment.
Like HamerD said, astrology can be broken down to specific individuals who differ drastically based on certain factors...if you go around looking for a random site that happens to have an astrological focus, of course you're going to find broad terms >< They are attempts at categorizing LARGE quantities of people in specific groups:S Thats obvious and understandable since their goal is to give you a general idea. Just pay attention to the original post. Most of the insults made here didn't even apply to anything HamerD stated...he takes a stance thats more psychological and less astrological but uses the term "astrology" and the "signs" applied because it's an easy categorical system based between time periods,cultural specifications, expectations and natural human consistencies etc. I'm sure he doesn't believe that if Jupiter is in the 7th house on thursday that he'll somehow win the lottery in the future if he buys the ticket on that day just because the horoscope in the newspaper said it would happen. Give it a rest guys.
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If HamerD would give us a link to somewhere where his side is explained, maybe we could advance. (If he has already and I missed it, I apologize, and please redirect me to that link.)
Nvmd.-I think he linked something higher up on this page.
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On January 03 2009 12:18 Mischy wrote:I dont think anyone actually took the time to read any of the original post :S Either you did and just completely missed the points made, or you just saw the word "astrology" and decided to join in on the bashing of HamerD which is already excessive and extremely boring to read (only ONE 'm' in the name you guys). You all have to stop reading cosmo girl for your information on astrology unfortunately I know you all love to look at the man of the month and then check his birthday and do that whole relationship sign connection "astrology" in the back of the magazine but it definitely wont help you with any issue you're having on this subject at the moment. Like HamerD said, astrology can be broken down to specific individuals who differ drastically based on certain factors...if you go around looking for a random site that happens to have an astrological focus, of course you're going to find broad terms >< They are attempts at categorizing LARGE quantities of people in specific groups:S Thats obvious and understandable since their goal is to give you a general idea. Just pay attention to the original post. Most of the insults made here didn't even apply to anything HamerD stated...he takes a stance thats more psychological and less astrological but uses the term "astrology" and the "signs" applied because it's an easy categorical system based between time periods,cultural specifications, expectations and natural human consistencies etc. I'm sure he doesn't believe that if Jupiter is in the 7th house on thursday that he'll somehow win the lottery in the future if he buys the ticket on that day just because the horoscope in the newspaper said it would happen. Give it a rest guys.
"hey if we're vague enough they cant really say we're wrong"
shut up
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FWIW i looked at my sign (scorpio) and looked at the dislikes/likes
here they are
* LIKES Truth
* Hidden Causes
* Being involved
* Work That is Meaningful
* Being Persuasive
* DISLIKES Being Given Only Surface data
* Taken Advantage of
* Demeaning Jobs
* Shallow Relationships
* Flattery and Flattering
Now, i'd like to ask whether someone here actually LIKES being taken advantage/having a demeaning job/be in a shallow relationship. On the same token, does anyone NOT like truth/being involved/doing meaningful work
This just reminds me of that website (which I've been trying to locate to prove a point) that asks you a bunch facts about you (gender/birthday/favorite tea/other stuff) and spits out 10 sentences which you rank on a 1-10 scale as to how they apply to you. Then it shows you an average and explains what the deal was.
If anyone knows what that site is, please link it here. The key I remember is that it asked you for what type of tea/coffee you liked, or something similar to that.
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On January 03 2009 12:18 Mischy wrote:I dont think anyone actually took the time to read any of the original post :S Either you did and just completely missed the points made, or you just saw the word "astrology" and decided to join in on the bashing of HamerD which is already excessive and extremely boring to read (only ONE 'm' in the name you guys). You all have to stop reading cosmo girl for your information on astrology unfortunately I know you all love to look at the man of the month and then check his birthday and do that whole relationship sign connection "astrology" in the back of the magazine but it definitely wont help you with any issue you're having on this subject at the moment. Like HamerD said, astrology can be broken down to specific individuals who differ drastically based on certain factors...if you go around looking for a random site that happens to have an astrological focus, of course you're going to find broad terms >< They are attempts at categorizing LARGE quantities of people in specific groups:S Thats obvious and understandable since their goal is to give you a general idea. Just pay attention to the original post. Most of the insults made here didn't even apply to anything HamerD stated...he takes a stance thats more psychological and less astrological but uses the term "astrology" and the "signs" applied because it's an easy categorical system based between time periods,cultural specifications, expectations and natural human consistencies etc. I'm sure he doesn't believe that if Jupiter is in the 7th house on thursday that he'll somehow win the lottery in the future if he buys the ticket on that day just because the horoscope in the newspaper said it would happen. Give it a rest guys.
Please don't call what HamerD does here psychological, it's pretty insulting, and Ive done a pretty good job of sticking to the argument, only 1 ad hominem argument from me in this thread, which was actually supported by a scientifical study.
The thing is, I haven't seen a valid counterargument so far as to:
-how every prediction of personality based on month seems to apply to everyone with no difference in significance)
-What the precise mechanism is that influences the development of character, what occurrence in nature could possibly lead you to believe in these patterns you guys talk about in the first place actually.
Besides, why do you people think you have any clue or insight on personality development? I spend countless hours of serious study on the subject for a serious school and you guys come in and propose some theory without any evidence, that discredits my field of study, what did you expect. It also doesn't help that half of the time when HamerD tries to explain something he sound like a schizo, some of his sentences are completely incomprehensible.
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* LIKES Stability - yup
* Being Attracted - er dunno
* Things Natural - no way
* Time to Ponder - yup
* Comfort and Pleasure - doesn't everyone? o_O
* DISLIKES Disruption - yup
* Being pushed too hard - would think this applies to everyone
* Synthetic or "man made" things - no way
* Being rushed - no
* Being indoors - no way in hell
On January 03 2009 10:19 HamerD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2009 10:10 Frits wrote:
HamerD my birthday is august 6 can you please do an astrology reading. Im curious what you'll predict. Leo means you are naturally a leader, creative and broad-minded. Also it means that, because you are a lion who keeps his pride in strict control, bossy, condescending, pompous and occasionally vituperative. http://www.astrology-online.com/leo.htm
Constellations are someone's attempt at "join the dots" applied to stars, and then trying to fit that to an everyday object or character from mythology. There is absolutely no reason why the stars in leo should represent a lion over any other object. The only reason we agree on the a lion as the image is for convenience, so we can split the sky up into sections and refer to them by their constellation names.
Stars are in constant motion too. If you wait long enough, the positions of stars in the sky will change drastically. What are you going to do then? Still stick to the idea of a lion even though it would be really warped eventually?
Then there's the problem of how on earth the symbol of a lion could possibly influence on someone's personality.
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HamerD, I definitely don't believe in Astrology but I was wondering a few things out of my curiosity.
My birthday is August 20th, making me a Leo, but the cutoff date is August 22. You said that the transitions were like colors in that there are "grades" of Leo. Does that mean that since I am close tot he end of Leo that I might be a little bit like whatever comes after Leo or were you just saying that among the Leos there is variation?
EDIT: BTW, I read up on Leo and there is a lot of stuff that sounds like me, whether that is because it is all designed to sound like everybody or wishful thinking, or some real aspect I don't know. But I am (and have been for a long time) literally obsessed with the color gold representing myself. Its not my favorite color, but it is ME...if that makes any sense.
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So I guess Internet debates don't really convince anybody.. but we all knew that already
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Norway28689 Posts
i have a pretty open mind but I think believing in astrology in todays society is like, retarded
or deliberately ignorant, whichever.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
On January 03 2009 11:08 IdrA wrote: its not directly beneficial, just very comforting to our brains... so no, its not a good thing. the fact that his idiocy has an explanation does not make it ok.
- lol, when I was your age I'd probably voiced a similar opinion, but I these days I ask myself more questions about the validity of my own opinions and beliefs.. I myself may not believe in the slightest the predictions of an astrology reading, but my curiosity might tempt to to find how it was arrived at and my values might deter me me from sanctioning him for his beliefs.
- did you know that without magical thinking learning would not be possible? spend some time with children and even if you do not study child development you can reach this conclusion on your own; without magical thinking many of our discoveries in science would never have happened; without magical thinking poetry and literature will be sooo dull..
- take just one of many examples, that of Sir Issac Newton who studied both astrology and alchemy, to the point that many today suspect that the inspiration for his laws of light and theory of gravity came from his alchemical work...
http://www.alchemylab.com/isaac_newton.htm
http://www.phys.uu.nl/~vgent/astrology/newton.htm
- how is it that he, who has left a contribution to mankind that you or I will never be able to match (unless of course you ever reach #1 keSPA rank, then maybe) who obviously was our intellectual superior in mathematics, physics and sciences does not share your harsh words for that which falls under the realm of magical thinking?
- my point is, that which is idiotic to us, might be so exclusively due to our ignorance.. which is why in this case learning is wiser than arguing.. or as Sir Issac Newton once said to Sir Halley, a contemporary whom he argued often, “Sir Halley, I have studied the matter, you have not!”
- a small essay for you from someone you might frown upon (chosen with this intention): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deepak-chopra/the-nuisance-of-magical-t_b_39887.html
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On January 04 2009 02:55 Physician wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2009 11:08 IdrA wrote: its not directly beneficial, just very comforting to our brains... so no, its not a good thing. the fact that his idiocy has an explanation does not make it ok. - lol, when I was your age I'd probably voiced a similar opinion, but I these days I ask myself more questions about the validity of my own opinions and beliefs.. I myself may not believe in the slightest the predictions of an astrology reading, but my curiosity might tempt to to find how it was arrived at and my values might deter me me from sanctioning him for his beliefs. - did you know that without magical thinking learning would not be possible? spend some time with children and even if you do not study child development you can reach this conclusion on your own; without magical thinking many of our discoveries in science would never have happened; without magical thinking poetry and literature will be sooo dull.. - take just one of many examples, that of Sir Issac Newton who studied both astrology and alchemy, to the point that many today suspect that the inspiration for his laws of light and theory of gravity came from his alchemical work... http://www.alchemylab.com/isaac_newton.htmhttp://www.phys.uu.nl/~vgent/astrology/newton.htm- how is it that he, who has left a contribution to mankind that you or I will never be able to match (unless of course you ever reach #1 keSPA rank, then maybe) who obviously was our intellectual superior in mathematics, physics and sciences does not share your harsh words for that which falls under the realm of magical thinking? - my point is, that which is idiotic to us, might be so exclusively due to our ignorance.. which is why in this case learning is wiser than arguing.. or as Sir Issac Newton once said to Sir Halley, a contemporary whom he argued often, “Sir Halley, I have studied the matter, you have not!” - a small essay for you from someone you might frown upon (chosen with this intention): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deepak-chopra/the-nuisance-of-magical-t_b_39887.html
Yeah the magical thinking makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint, but that's no excuse for believing in bullshit.
When these radical ideas are tested AND FAIL that's a whole different story.
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Sorry but I think it would take a lobotomy to make me believe in this stuff -.-
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EPT
