• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:38
CEST 18:38
KST 01:38
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall4HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Flash Announces Retirement From ASL23Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?12FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event16Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster14Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? StarCraft Mass Recall: SC1 campaigns on SC2 thread How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports? Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event HomeStory Cup 27 (June 27-29) WardiTV Mondays SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 $200 Biweekly - StarCraft Evolution League #1
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady
Brood War
General
Flash Announces Retirement From ASL Help: rep cant save Where did Hovz go? [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread [BSL20] ProLeague LB Final - Saturday 20:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Trading/Investing Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
Game Sound vs. Music: The Im…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 564 users

Balance Discussion

Blogs > NonY
Post a Reply
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-22 23:30:26
February 22 2021 21:56 GMT
#1
The StarCraft fandom has long since lost its way with respect to balance discussion. It used to come up in only one of three ways: a losing player venting, intellectuals having productive discussions, or entertainment.

All three still happen but there's a very common fourth one: bitter whining. Not overcome with emotion from having just lost. Not productive. Not entertaining. Just annoying and a total downer.

There's so much of that and not nearly enough people giving those types a hint that they should stop trying to contribute.

You know when a group of people are all standing in a circle having a great conversation and one is too timid to say anything? But then he finally builds up the courage to say something and it falls totally flat? And he can't understand what was so different about what he said that it didn't fit in? It's as if all those poor souls fled to the internet to voice their opinions, where they could all support each other in their ignorance.

But the fact remains: their role is to listen, not to talk. Just because they've found a group of people lacking good enough taste to give their contributions the response they deserve doesn't change that.

****
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
ZiZzy
Profile Joined March 2020
Germany7 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-23 00:11:20
February 22 2021 23:49 GMT
#2
Can fully agree on your take.
Over the years it seems like that a lot of people lost the joking side of saying "freakin' laserz" or Tesagi/GomTvt etc. and when things are getting brought up, they are usally formulated in such a way that you can only read it as bitter whining.

I´ve been wondering sometimes why that process took place and how some platforms have turned into utter cesspools for that kind of behaviour. Obv when things are unchecked it will turn messy but its also the responsibility of the community to figure out which things are good to be held onto and things that need to be turned down.

And my guess was that some combination of the game turning F2P (attracting a swell of newcomers) plus other platforms becoming the mainhubs with a sometimes very different culture of discussing these topics than what took place here years back might have just been enough for things to turn very sour and unenjoyable.
Potentially subjective: there used to be times when high level players were more active in the forums/platforms. And when some random guy claimed insane stuff about balance which he should have posted in the QQ-Thread etc. they were usually shutting down and bringing in their view.

Now you got toxic players in the scene that have influenced others who just might have started getting into SC not so long ago. And as it is, people obviously assimilate and copy certain things and welp now were here


And what can effectively be done? More moderating and a higher participation of people who bring up more balanced and qualified opinions? How can these things be assured?
Torchise
Profile Joined May 2012
Canada245 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-24 02:17:35
February 24 2021 02:06 GMT
#3
I think there are 2 answers to this question.

1) The evolution of social media where people only give short replies and get irrationally angry and toxic about pretty much any topic. Just take a look at about any Twitter threads, there will always be a random user flaming the person for no apparent reason. I think a lack of moderation on these platform lead them to think it was normal and acceptable to say whatever garbage is on their mind and people brought that terrible behavior here from social media.

2) Streamers should be role models for their viewers but some of them behave terribly as well. In BW, Artosis is the most popular foreign streamer and he is really guilty of this. For instance, he will constantly blame his opponent when he loses, telling his viewers that he was the better player but only lost because of the opponent's race or build order. Recently, he even goes as far as saying his opponent is cheating for doing basic stuff. Protoss doing a nexus first build? Cheating! Zerg using dark swarm? CHEATING!!! His opponent never has any skill compared to him, they only win because of luck or abusing imbalanced mechanics. It might just all be hyperbole and a part of his streamer persona meant to entertain but I don't think it is the case because if some viewer calls him out on his childish mindset in the chat, he will get visibly upset and start timing them out or banning them.

Just my 2 cents.
The baylife, it burns!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10126 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-25 07:42:43
February 25 2021 07:42 GMT
#4
BW was an accident. SC2 was a mistake. It's not the whiners' fault.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Uldridge
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belgium4751 Posts
February 25 2021 15:52 GMT
#5
What are (examples of) bitter whiners though?
Are they people that fundamentally see the way the game works so wrongly they can't contribute constructively?
Taxes are for Terrans
Harris1st
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany6880 Posts
February 26 2021 09:41 GMT
#6
On February 26 2021 00:52 Uldridge wrote:
What are (examples of) bitter whiners though?
Are they people that fundamentally see the way the game works so wrongly they can't contribute constructively?


Go into any thread and say: "The Queen is a good designed unit" and see what happens xD
Go Serral! GG EZ for Ence. Flashbang dance FTW
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4329 Posts
February 27 2021 01:30 GMT
#7
Talking about BW imbalances was fun to theory craft maybe but best not to get too worked up.Blizzard said they weren't going to rebalance with the remaster.

Now, with no team working on either BW or SC2 there is little point for that discussion in SC2 either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
LastWish
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
2013 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-27 23:12:18
February 27 2021 23:11 GMT
#8
There is so much overfocus on balance both in games and life itself.

I remember back in the days in Broodwar before Bisu build was popularized, PvZ was not very balanced, but protoss players were still considered as whiners when complaining about balance.
What has changed?
Strategies have evolved and map makers create better maps that produce more balanced outcomes.
Though people still enjoyed playing the game even when it was more difficult..

What is balance and do we really want it?
Don't we enjoy steamrolling opponent after we made all the good choices?
If one faction is played 20% of time and other 80% of time is that considered a balance problem?
Is balance required at noob level?
Do we want game changing balance patches every month?

Perhaps there is very few perfectly balanced games, even chess is not perfectly balanced as the starting player has some sort of advantage, though in general it is considered that draw can be reached by the black player...


- It's all just treason - They bring me down with their lies - Don't know the reason - My life is fire and ice -
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10126 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-02-27 23:43:11
February 27 2021 23:42 GMT
#9
Even if the game was imbalanced in some really significant way, it wouldn't affect casual players because the game is balanced enough such that the three races are all still played - and enjoyed - by the player. Between casual players, the better player wins more often than not, regardless imbalance or race. Unless they are Korean of coures. jk
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
16:00
Warm Up Cup #1
uThermal259
SteadfastSC108
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 471
Harstem 450
uThermal 259
SteadfastSC 108
BRAT_OK 63
trigger 31
MindelVK 18
goblin 10
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 3854
EffOrt 1383
Larva 1220
Stork 386
Mini 313
BeSt 196
Snow 79
Rush 65
Mind 65
Hyun 53
[ Show more ]
Sharp 52
Barracks 51
Shinee 47
Movie 37
PianO 30
Aegong 26
Rock 20
ajuk12(nOOB) 16
Terrorterran 15
scan(afreeca) 14
zelot 11
Hm[arnc] 10
HiyA 9
IntoTheRainbow 8
Dota 2
Gorgc9355
qojqva3402
febbydoto23
League of Legends
singsing2352
Dendi493
Counter-Strike
fl0m1439
Super Smash Bros
amsayoshi72
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor163
Other Games
FrodaN3052
hiko1171
Happy338
Beastyqt328
RotterdaM299
Liquid`VortiX238
crisheroes163
mouzStarbuck162
ArmadaUGS113
Mew2King112
KnowMe62
Trikslyr61
elazer56
QueenE51
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• poizon28 28
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV459
League of Legends
• Jankos1367
• TFBlade1092
Other Games
• Shiphtur263
Upcoming Events
OSC
2h 23m
SHIN vs Bunny
Cham vs MaNa
SKillous vs TBD
PAPI vs Jumy
Gerald vs Moja
ArT vs TBD
Replay Cast
7h 23m
The PondCast
17h 23m
RSL Revival
17h 23m
ByuN vs Classic
Clem vs Cham
WardiTV European League
23h 23m
Replay Cast
1d 7h
RSL Revival
1d 17h
herO vs SHIN
Reynor vs Cure
WardiTV European League
1d 23h
FEL
1d 23h
Korean StarCraft League
2 days
[ Show More ]
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
FEL
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
3 days
BSL: ProLeague
4 days
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-06-28
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.