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This all started like 20 years ago with a guy who had a great idea to make a TV show about an island where nobody knew what would happen next - not even the writers.
Star Trek is a great idea. It produced 3 amazing TV shows, plus Voyager and Enterprise. That all came from the TOS films. While TNG did have the responsibility of holding its own (it could have just as easily flopped), that chance came because of the movies.
So it's fitting that movies should be what bookend the success of the franchise and cause it to finally die.
Kirk is not a literary character. James Bond came from a book. Anyone can come along and replace the current Bond actor when they get too old. Anyone can play Julius Caesar in a movie.
You cannot reboot something with new actors when the original actors were the characters. If Dalton plays Bond after Moore, that's acting. If someone pretends to be Kirk after Shatner, that's not acting, it's a Halloween costume.
This is not to plant offense or blame on the talented actors in this millennium's Trek (nor indeed on the untalented actors, indistinguishable among this writing and production). But when you see Spock, and Kirk, and McCoy in the reboot trilogy, and get a warm feeling seeing their drama and cute banter, that's merely deja vu. That's triggering the memory of the relationships between the characters played by the actual original actors. It's not its own thing. There is nothing actually new or original, let alone good.
And that's what's sad. People want and deserve something new. They don't want to try and relive something great, when it will invariably fail to live up to the expectations of your memory. (I say invariably, but there's also an outside chance it could be better if it weren't handled by hacks.) Enter JJ Abrams and his company, Bad Reboot Productions.
The problem with Trek is it's no longer wholesome.
Seinfeld said that the success of a sitcom has to include likability. The audience have to at some level think they would want to live in that world.
Do you want to live in Star Trek: Discovery?
It seems like it would be the easiest thing to come up with a simple Next Next Generation series sometime in the period after the Dominion War.
People aren't stupid. They would like something new, but yes, it's risky. But literally anything would have been a better idea than this reboot and prequel, and probably Picard.
-Q movie
-Borg or Vidiian horror movie
-Jupiter Station sitcom starring Barclay and Robert Picardo
-Law and Order: Trek a la Quark/Odo
-Trekpranos a la DS9 Honor Among Thieves, etc.
-Trek medical drama
-Romulan War
-Schindler's List movie of the Bajoran Occupation
Instead we have a prequel. But it takes place in the future compared to the prequel we already had, which was actually good and didn't contain mushroom engines and Apple store bridges. Perhaps this mess is partly the fans' fault for rejecting ENT.
What would you like to see?
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Yeah I think you're right about likability and wholesomeness. There's no longer a sense of wonderment either. "Space, the final frontier" just doesn't have the same ring to it anymore, maybe because of the advance of technology or increasing cynicism. Could also just be rose tinted nostalgia glasses too..
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Northern Ireland23286 Posts
Trek’s appeal (to me) is viewing various ethical problems or practical problems through the prism of science fiction in an aspirational way, with characters who are incredibly smart but have their own foibles and flaws that factor in too and how those conflict. That’s relatively grounded in its own universe.
I guess it’s a rare exception, I tend to dystopian science fiction generally but Star Trek is the exception there.
The latest Trek films don’t do that, but in fairness most actual films in the Trek universe don’t do what the shows do either due to the constraints of making a feature film.
I haven’t seen Discovery yet but I haven’t heard good things either.
I’m actually a relatively late convert too, so it’s not nostalgia talking here. I’d always enjoyed watching the odd episode in my youth but it’s only now at 30 I’m properly watching all of TNG and DS9. They still hold up remarkably well.
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Baffling to me still is how much more star trek the orville was then star trek. They had a government mandated sex change to a baby and no one batted an eye.
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I'm not a hardcore Trekkie (not by a large margin)
I liked the reboot movies with the young actors, I hated the TV show Discovery.
I think the movies are good way to bring the franchise to young people who wouldn't watch 40 year old stuff.
Other than that, you are probably right. The Star Trek universe is big enough for new stories. No reason to use the same characters as in the "old" stuff
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On January 12 2020 20:56 oBlade wrote:
Perhaps this mess is partly the fans' fault for rejecting ENT.
I mean, seriously, Enterprise and Voyager are still way better than anything that's come out since.
To me, Enterprise and Voyager feel closer to TNG than ToS. They're certainly not bad!
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As an outsider, I know exactly how this feels. I consider myself a hardcore Star Wars fan
On January 12 2020 20:56 oBlade wrote:
The problem with Trek is it's no longer wholesome.
This is exactly how I feel about Star Wars, once Disney took over I knew it had became something commercial, not true to the pure essence of the story and the saga. My feeling is that in the last 5-7 years very few exceptional films and shows have been produced. Hopefully the 2020-2030 decade will be better and we will get back on track with true stories, that have something to say, instead of everything being being a click-bait grab your attention every second sensationalistic camera rolling with sound
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On January 13 2020 20:23 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2020 20:56 oBlade wrote:
Perhaps this mess is partly the fans' fault for rejecting ENT.
I mean, seriously, Enterprise and Voyager are still way better than anything that's come out since. To me, Enterprise and Voyager feel closer to TNG than ToS. They're certainly not bad!
I definitely didn't hate ENT as much as a lot of the internet (in fact, the last 2 seasons were pretty good minus the last episode IMO) and Voyager while not DS9 or TNG was somewhere between good and great. Discovery...I watched both seasons but don't think I will watch any more going forward. It just doesn't feel like ST at all. As others have stated I watch the Orville now to get my trek fix.
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Wholesome is the wrong word for StarTrek.
What made me wanna be part of the StarTrek world was how aspirational it was. I started rewatching TNG after 20 years and transhumanism is one of it's core elements.
The reason the Q take interest in mankind is that they see mankind's potential to develop farther than the Q ever could. There is a transdimensional traveler in season 1 that visits the enterprise to experience Wesley Crusher, a human on it's way to a higher form of existence. All this stuff, is so aloof, ballsy and important. It is striving for a higher form of existence.
Discoverie's Core themes were war and morality, prevalent in many other franchises, not too inspiring, absolutely not aspirational.
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Northern Ireland23286 Posts
On January 14 2020 08:06 naughtDE wrote:
Wholesome is the wrong word for StarTrek.
What made me wanna be part of the StarTrek world was how aspirational it was. I started rewatching TNG after 20 years and transhumanism is one of it's core elements.
The reason the Q take interest in mankind is that they see mankind's potential to develop farther than the Q ever could. There is a transdimensional traveler in season 1 that visits the enterprise to experience Wesley Crusher, a human on it's way to a higher form of existence. All this stuff, is so aloof, ballsy and important. It is striving for a higher form of existence.
Discoverie's Core themes were war and morality, prevalent in many other franchises, not too inspiring, absolutely not aspirational.
Probably is the wrong word aye, but I think people use wholesome and aspirational interchangeably re. Trek.
It’s definitely the show I watch when idiots at work are pissing me off, or politics is that little bit too depressing for even my defences of a week.
I guess because it’s a universe where integrity, ethics and an understanding and open mind actually count for rather a lot. Where problem solving and exhaustively exploring peaceful options are where it’s at rather than blowing up bad guys.
So yeah call it wholesome, aspirational or whatever but I agree that specific kind of stuff is what people like about it.
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Sadly, the interviews I saw with Patrick Stewart did not give me hope for his new reboot:
“In a way, the world of ‘Next Generation’ had been too perfect and too protected,” he says. “It was the Enterprise. It was a safe world of respect and communication and care and, sometimes, fun.” In “Picard,” the Federation — a union of planets bonded by shared democratic values — has taken an isolationist turn. The new show, Stewart says, “was me responding to the world of Brexit and Trump and feeling, ‘Why hasn’t the Federation changed? Why hasn’t Starfleet changed?’ Maybe they’re not as reliable and trustworthy as we all thought.”
Real-world parallels are not hard to identify. It is one week before the parliamentary election that will see British prime minister and Brexit hardliner Boris Johnson’s Conservatives win a staggering victory over their Labour rivals. And Stewart is not feeling optimistic about the near future.
“I’m not sure which one of us is in the most trouble,” he says of Britain and the United States. “I think it’s actually the U.K. I think we’re f—ed, completely f—ed.” He points to studies predicting decades-long economic damage inflicted by the country’s looming withdrawal from the European Union. Of the U.S., he says, “There is a time limit to your f—ed state, which is four years away.” He expresses hope that “the United States that has given us the Trump administration” can change, but adds, “He will likely get reelected.”
Variety
I'm pessimistic from that article, but they could still do a good job. The antagonist has to be believable, and the setup can't be hackneyed villains drawing from modern tropes.
I'm hoping for something not already done to death.
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On January 14 2020 08:14 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2020 08:06 naughtDE wrote:
Wholesome is the wrong word for StarTrek.
What made me wanna be part of the StarTrek world was how aspirational it was. I started rewatching TNG after 20 years and transhumanism is one of it's core elements.
The reason the Q take interest in mankind is that they see mankind's potential to develop farther than the Q ever could. There is a transdimensional traveler in season 1 that visits the enterprise to experience Wesley Crusher, a human on it's way to a higher form of existence. All this stuff, is so aloof, ballsy and important. It is striving for a higher form of existence.
Discoverie's Core themes were war and morality, prevalent in many other franchises, not too inspiring, absolutely not aspirational. Probably is the wrong word aye, but I think people use wholesome and aspirational interchangeably re. Trek. It’s definitely the show I watch when idiots at work are pissing me off, or politics is that little bit too depressing for even my defences of a week. I guess because it’s a universe where integrity, ethics and an understanding and open mind actually count for rather a lot. Where problem solving and exhaustively exploring peaceful options are where it’s at rather than blowing up bad guys. So yeah call it wholesome, aspirational or whatever but I agree that specific kind of stuff is what people like about it.
If you think people use wholesome and aspirational interchangeably, I already like you a lot! 
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Northern Ireland23286 Posts
On January 14 2020 15:07 Danglars wrote:Sadly, the interviews I saw with Patrick Stewart did not give me hope for his new reboot: Show nested quote +“In a way, the world of ‘Next Generation’ had been too perfect and too protected,” he says. “It was the Enterprise. It was a safe world of respect and communication and care and, sometimes, fun.” In “Picard,” the Federation — a union of planets bonded by shared democratic values — has taken an isolationist turn. The new show, Stewart says, “was me responding to the world of Brexit and Trump and feeling, ‘Why hasn’t the Federation changed? Why hasn’t Starfleet changed?’ Maybe they’re not as reliable and trustworthy as we all thought.”
Real-world parallels are not hard to identify. It is one week before the parliamentary election that will see British prime minister and Brexit hardliner Boris Johnson’s Conservatives win a staggering victory over their Labour rivals. And Stewart is not feeling optimistic about the near future.
“I’m not sure which one of us is in the most trouble,” he says of Britain and the United States. “I think it’s actually the U.K. I think we’re f—ed, completely f—ed.” He points to studies predicting decades-long economic damage inflicted by the country’s looming withdrawal from the European Union. Of the U.S., he says, “There is a time limit to your f—ed state, which is four years away.” He expresses hope that “the United States that has given us the Trump administration” can change, but adds, “He will likely get reelected.” VarietyI'm pessimistic from that article, but they could still do a good job. The antagonist has to be believable, and the setup can't be hackneyed villains drawing from modern tropes. I'm hoping for something not already done to death.
I’m pretty intrigued, I’m really not sure what to expect which is an increasingly novel feeling. Could be really good, could be utterly terrible and I have zero clue which.
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Leaked plot to the new Picard series:
Jean-Luc Picard awakens from a 20 year Borg-induced coma to find the Federation a xenophobic hellhole. He concocts a plan to use Starfleet to overthrow the duly elected president of the United Federation of Planets, who won the previous election by carrying 304 systems despite only getting 630 billion in the popular vote and now flies around in a solid gold starship built secretly by Section 31 - the NCC 1701-DRUMPF. Will he successfully enlist the help of Mitt Riker to succeed in his coup and convince the Federation to accept Jem-hadar refugees?
Source: https://www.popularmechanics.com/culture/tv/a27496471/star-trek-picard/
Looks interesting.
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I liked ENT way more than VOY. The latter was so incredibly dull.
The Star Trek I like needs good characters, problems with consequences and believable solutions to them. That's why DS9 is by far my favourite ST show overall. TNG had the higher peaks (THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS), but it also was too much "monster of the week" type storytelling. But for its time, it was a great show.
I'm also sick of reboots. Like OP stated, all those new movies feel like mimicry. All I want is a new ST show that takes place after VOY with a unique twist. The possibilities are endless. Yet the studios prefer the easy cash-in, which is understandable but sad. I don't want to see an old Picard (even though I admire Patrick Stewart), TNG ended perfectly. No need to add anything.
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Northern Ireland23286 Posts
On January 18 2020 01:33 virpi wrote:
I liked ENT way more than VOY. The latter was so incredibly dull.
The Star Trek I like needs good characters, problems with consequences and believable solutions to them. That's why DS9 is by far my favourite ST show overall. TNG had the higher peaks (THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS), but it also was too much "monster of the week" type storytelling. But for its time, it was a great show.
I'm also sick of reboots. Like OP stated, all those new movies feel like mimicry. All I want is a new ST show that takes place after VOY with a unique twist. The possibilities are endless. Yet the studios prefer the easy cash-in, which is understandable but sad. I don't want to see an old Picard (even though I admire Patrick Stewart), TNG ended perfectly. No need to add anything.
I‘m even OK with something with no real new angle to it, just more of the same at a TNG/DS9 quality with new characters could be great.
You’d probably have to retread some ideas from the previous shows, it’s difficult to continually come up with new ethical scenarios after hundreds before, but it could still be good and a taste for the new generation of that Star Trek feel.
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EPT
