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I've always thought it was silly for people to whine about cheese. It's taking a calculated risk, and it isn't as if it requires no skill to pull off against strong players. It's just another weapon in a player's arsenal and to me it makes things interesting. I guess it's different if it's that player's one and only weapon, but among pros that is never the case.
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On July 15 2018 16:11 Starlightsun wrote:
I've always thought it was silly for people to whine about cheese. It's taking a calculated risk, and it isn't as if it requires no skill to pull off against strong players. It's just another weapon in a player's arsenal and to me it makes things interesting. I guess it's different if it's that player's one and only weapon, but among pros that is never the case.
Whining about cheese is as old as the game itself and it will never go away. Losing to something "dumb" makes lots of people angry, because they think they've lost to an "inferior" style of play. Playing the safe macro style is the more reliable way to win games for the majority of players, but Has or printf show that you can develop your own style while being really good at the game.
Still, fuck 2 rax.
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People who played against cheese builds and lose to it get pissed. But I like cheeses not because that's one way to win games, but it's because you can use it to throw your opponents off. Maybe some players use cheese because they are scared in their opponent's macro. For players who aren't like Has and printf, the have some cheese builds so they can use it for opponents, especially those who have weakness to some cheeses.
In the case of the 2 Protosses, it's their style. It does work for them a lot.
In other words: Cheese IS Important In SC2!
Also, fck Nydus Rushes and Cannons. Those are the two builds I get rekt from time to time but enjoy laughing when I stop these rushes.
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the idea that you can outsmart and outplay a mechanically superior opponent
<3
i think that pro players do realy too much on what is expected instead of creating rifts, has showed just how good he was at "strategy" to get to finals and he indeed is "helping" esports more than some robots out there playing, and he should feel proud of that.
And yes a thread seems like a good idea, why not in sc2 general though?
Edit: + Show Spoiler +On July 16 2018 00:02 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2018 23:40 fluidrone wrote:the idea that you can outsmart and outplay a mechanically superior opponent <3i think that pro players do realy too much on what is expected instead of creating rifts, has showed just how good he was at "strategy" to get to finals and he indeed is "helping" esports more than some robots out there playing, and he should feel proud of that. And yes a thread seems like a good idea, why not in sc2 general though?  Because I'm not allowed to post my own personal youtube videos outside my blog and I'm much better at venting my feelings in an audio rant than taking the time and effort to type it all out.
<3 i feel you man
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On July 15 2018 23:40 fluidrone wrote:<3i think that pro players do realy too much on what is expected instead of creating rifts, has showed just how good he was at "strategy" to get to finals and he indeed is "helping" esports more than some robots out there playing, and he should feel proud of that. And yes a thread seems like a good idea, why not in sc2 general though?
Because I'm not allowed to post my own personal youtube videos outside my blog and I'm much better at venting my feelings in an audio rant than taking the time and effort to type it all out.
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You can say the same thing as in sports: if you don't want to be cheesed, then don't lose to cheese.
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I'm totally with you.
This game should not be ruled in a certain way to be played. Has is one of them who really keep the inspiration and impressiveness of SC2 alive.
Great run by Has btw, I was amazed and entertained. <3
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i think we have to just settle on the fact that there are things about cheese that seem objectively good and things about it that seem objectively bad as well. you've covered the positives, but even as a cheesy player myself i can understand the negatives and i'm willing to explore them
one of the major complaints about many forms of cheese is that the reliability of the strategy depends heavily on whether your opponent fails in his map awareness or makes a minor mistake which wouldn't kill you at 15 minutes but instantly loses you the game at 5 minutes, like not having a zealot or adept on hold position in a wall.
i think you can safely say that starcraft 2 units are in many ways souped up to make them feel fun to play, especially when it comes to speed. most people who aren't hardcore RTS gamers tend to enjoy fast units and explosions more than strategy and balance, so you can understand how blizzard always wants their units to be more eye-catchingly "extreme." but the problem with this, arguably, is that when you make the game fast-paced (which is a repeat theme in SC2 balance) you end up with a game design that puts a heavy burden on players to learn correct early defense. the need to defend against early aggression is what shapes the meta
and of course there's nothing wrong with having to learn defense, but cheese builds aren't hard to execute, and in a super fast-paced game the punishment for not defending an early attack correctly is devastating. another common feature of cheeses is that in many (not all) cases, once the first wave of the cheese hits, if you weren't prepared for it, you're either dead or so far behind that continuing to play feels bad. mass speedlings into the natural in PvZ? probably dead. fortified bunker at your natural hatch in ZvT? probably dead. misclicked your pylon block and let 2 adepts into your main in PvP? probably dead. so imagine you're a novice or middling player who's trying to get better but also just trying to have fun with a game. you read a build order, you executed it correctly, maybe you tried to scout but failed, you aren't supply blocked, and you feel like you're doing well. but your adept wasn't on hold position and now you just lost the game against someone who was throwing spaghetti at the wall hoping it sticks
obviously there will always be points in the game where one player's job is harder than the other player's - the idea of balance is to have many of these scenarios always counterbalancing each other in a way that's interesting and engaging. but no one really enjoys wasting mining time with conservative worker scouts or having to run workers away from some cloaked banshee that's suddenly in your base. in that moment you know that your opponent hasn't really done anything other than hide a building and rely on your poor preparation. it's a "caught with your pants down" moment, and it shouldn't be hard to understand why almost everyone hates it. losing a straight game feels like taking a hard punch, but losing to a cheese just feels like someone yelled "hey!" before the race started
and let's not deny that there are people on ladder who cheese not just because they find it fun but because they enjoy griefing others - the ones who start trash talking while building their bunker or mock you for trying to use micro skills to get out of a cheese you weren't ready for. there are definitely people who take the shitty feeling of being cheesed and use it to their advantage - not even for starcraft wins but just for the sake of making others feel shitty, which is just a nasty thing to have going around the scene
however, like i said, it's a positive/negative thing. the spontaneity and variety you get from cheese being in the game excites people, and putting moral rules on how to play a video game is ultimately pretty silly. i cheese all the time and have done the nastiest cheeses in existence. i've even planetary fortress rushed in LOTV. so i certainly don't blame myself for that, nor do i think cheese should be banned or shamed. but as much as i ultimately agree with the positive view on cheese, i still have respect for the shitty feelings it can cause
the other thing is that it affects the pro scene and ladder very differently, yet ladder players are trying to copy the pro scene. so you have this sort of odd situation where on the pro level you have to be insanely good to cheese a lot and win, which makes it harder to hate on cheese because it doesn't really seem to work that often. but then you get trolls on ladder cheesing you and saying that you're bad for not defending it because it "doesn't work at pro level." well, a lot of shit doesn't work at pro level and people take that shit to GM anyway
On July 17 2018 09:47 coverpunch wrote:
You can say the same thing as in sports: if you don't want to be cheesed, then don't lose to cheese.
what is the usefulness of this statement other than to communicate that you don't care when other people are frustrated?
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Me make pylon and cannon. Have hated cheese forever in SC BW and SC2.
When you win when you cheese do you think: "I outskilled and outplayed my opponent?" Why does cheese exist in some RTS games? If cheese was removed from SC2 would you miss it?
SC2 is not designed to be a sandbox game that allows all styles to be viable, it is intentional that some styles are viable as winning strategies and some are not. Blizzard has the authority to choose what is viable and what is not, see those destructible debris at the bottom of the ramp, they are there for a reason, Bilzzard chose to not allow a cheese strategy to be viable. More decisions like this are needed IMO.
I think Serral illustrated perfectly that he outskilled and outplayed Has. I hope Has can be become a more complete player and not rely on the BS design of P (I main P btw) and sc2 that allows lame, lazy, cheap ways to win.
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EPT
