• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:20
CEST 22:20
KST 05:20
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL63Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?13FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event22Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster16Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1
StarCraft 2
General
Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? PiG Sty Festival #5: Playoffs Preview + Groups Recap
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays Korean Starcraft League Week 77
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion SC uni coach streams logging into betting site Practice Partners (Official)
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China The Casual Games of the Week Thread CSL Xiamen International Invitational [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 584 users

[Vlog] Has and why Cheese is important to esports!

Blogs > Vindicare605
Post a Reply
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16056 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-14 21:29:50
July 14 2018 21:24 GMT
#1


Has represents everything that is amazing about Starcraft and e-sports in general. Hear me out you guys. Has represents the idea that you can outsmart and outplay a mechanically superior opponent and isn't that something we should be celebrating about e-sports?

Hear me out. One of the reasons e-sports is awesome is because it allows people that otherwise couldn't compete at a high level, to do so.

Starcraft is often compared to chess, and chess is an intellectual competition, but we all know that Starcraft has a dexterity and a speed component to it. Too often we get caught up in how fast a player is, how great their mechanics are, that we forget that strategy and deception can overcome mechanics. That is beautiful and it's worth celebrating and it's one of the things that makes Starcraft truly special.

***
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Starlightsun
Profile Blog Joined June 2016
United States1405 Posts
July 15 2018 07:11 GMT
#2
I've always thought it was silly for people to whine about cheese. It's taking a calculated risk, and it isn't as if it requires no skill to pull off against strong players. It's just another weapon in a player's arsenal and to me it makes things interesting. I guess it's different if it's that player's one and only weapon, but among pros that is never the case.
virpi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Germany3598 Posts
July 15 2018 09:02 GMT
#3
On July 15 2018 16:11 Starlightsun wrote:
I've always thought it was silly for people to whine about cheese. It's taking a calculated risk, and it isn't as if it requires no skill to pull off against strong players. It's just another weapon in a player's arsenal and to me it makes things interesting. I guess it's different if it's that player's one and only weapon, but among pros that is never the case.

Whining about cheese is as old as the game itself and it will never go away. Losing to something "dumb" makes lots of people angry, because they think they've lost to an "inferior" style of play. Playing the safe macro style is the more reliable way to win games for the majority of players, but Has or printf show that you can develop your own style while being really good at the game.

Still, fuck 2 rax.
first we make expand, then we defense it.
Terra1
Profile Joined June 2018
Philippines312 Posts
July 15 2018 09:24 GMT
#4
People who played against cheese builds and lose to it get pissed. But I like cheeses not because that's one way to win games, but it's because you can use it to throw your opponents off. Maybe some players use cheese because they are scared in their opponent's macro. For players who aren't like Has and printf, the have some cheese builds so they can use it for opponents, especially those who have weakness to some cheeses.

In the case of the 2 Protosses, it's their style. It does work for them a lot.

In other words: Cheese IS Important In SC2!

Also, fck Nydus Rushes and Cannons. Those are the two builds I get rekt from time to time but enjoy laughing when I stop these rushes.
fluidrone
Profile Blog Joined January 2015
France1478 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-15 15:12:36
July 15 2018 14:40 GMT
#5
the idea that you can outsmart and outplay a mechanically superior opponent

<3
i think that pro players do realy too much on what is expected instead of creating rifts, has showed just how good he was at "strategy" to get to finals and he indeed is "helping" esports more than some robots out there playing, and he should feel proud of that.
And yes a thread seems like a good idea, why not in sc2 general though?

Edit: + Show Spoiler +

On July 16 2018 00:02 Vindicare605 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 15 2018 23:40 fluidrone wrote:
the idea that you can outsmart and outplay a mechanically superior opponent

<3
i think that pro players do realy too much on what is expected instead of creating rifts, has showed just how good he was at "strategy" to get to finals and he indeed is "helping" esports more than some robots out there playing, and he should feel proud of that.
And yes a thread seems like a good idea, why not in sc2 general though?



Because I'm not allowed to post my own personal youtube videos outside my blog and I'm much better at venting my feelings in an audio rant than taking the time and effort to type it all out.

<3 i feel you man
"not enough rights"
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16056 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-07-15 15:02:53
July 15 2018 15:02 GMT
#6
On July 15 2018 23:40 fluidrone wrote:
Show nested quote +
the idea that you can outsmart and outplay a mechanically superior opponent

<3
i think that pro players do realy too much on what is expected instead of creating rifts, has showed just how good he was at "strategy" to get to finals and he indeed is "helping" esports more than some robots out there playing, and he should feel proud of that.
And yes a thread seems like a good idea, why not in sc2 general though?



Because I'm not allowed to post my own personal youtube videos outside my blog and I'm much better at venting my feelings in an audio rant than taking the time and effort to type it all out.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
July 17 2018 00:47 GMT
#7
You can say the same thing as in sports: if you don't want to be cheesed, then don't lose to cheese.
JDDD
Profile Joined July 2018
4 Posts
July 17 2018 14:59 GMT
#8
I'm totally with you.
This game should not be ruled in a certain way to be played. Has is one of them who really keep the inspiration and impressiveness of SC2 alive.

Great run by Has btw, I was amazed and entertained. <3
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
July 17 2018 17:41 GMT
#9
i think we have to just settle on the fact that there are things about cheese that seem objectively good and things about it that seem objectively bad as well. you've covered the positives, but even as a cheesy player myself i can understand the negatives and i'm willing to explore them

one of the major complaints about many forms of cheese is that the reliability of the strategy depends heavily on whether your opponent fails in his map awareness or makes a minor mistake which wouldn't kill you at 15 minutes but instantly loses you the game at 5 minutes, like not having a zealot or adept on hold position in a wall.

i think you can safely say that starcraft 2 units are in many ways souped up to make them feel fun to play, especially when it comes to speed. most people who aren't hardcore RTS gamers tend to enjoy fast units and explosions more than strategy and balance, so you can understand how blizzard always wants their units to be more eye-catchingly "extreme." but the problem with this, arguably, is that when you make the game fast-paced (which is a repeat theme in SC2 balance) you end up with a game design that puts a heavy burden on players to learn correct early defense. the need to defend against early aggression is what shapes the meta

and of course there's nothing wrong with having to learn defense, but cheese builds aren't hard to execute, and in a super fast-paced game the punishment for not defending an early attack correctly is devastating. another common feature of cheeses is that in many (not all) cases, once the first wave of the cheese hits, if you weren't prepared for it, you're either dead or so far behind that continuing to play feels bad. mass speedlings into the natural in PvZ? probably dead. fortified bunker at your natural hatch in ZvT? probably dead. misclicked your pylon block and let 2 adepts into your main in PvP? probably dead. so imagine you're a novice or middling player who's trying to get better but also just trying to have fun with a game. you read a build order, you executed it correctly, maybe you tried to scout but failed, you aren't supply blocked, and you feel like you're doing well. but your adept wasn't on hold position and now you just lost the game against someone who was throwing spaghetti at the wall hoping it sticks

obviously there will always be points in the game where one player's job is harder than the other player's - the idea of balance is to have many of these scenarios always counterbalancing each other in a way that's interesting and engaging. but no one really enjoys wasting mining time with conservative worker scouts or having to run workers away from some cloaked banshee that's suddenly in your base. in that moment you know that your opponent hasn't really done anything other than hide a building and rely on your poor preparation. it's a "caught with your pants down" moment, and it shouldn't be hard to understand why almost everyone hates it. losing a straight game feels like taking a hard punch, but losing to a cheese just feels like someone yelled "hey!" before the race started

and let's not deny that there are people on ladder who cheese not just because they find it fun but because they enjoy griefing others - the ones who start trash talking while building their bunker or mock you for trying to use micro skills to get out of a cheese you weren't ready for. there are definitely people who take the shitty feeling of being cheesed and use it to their advantage - not even for starcraft wins but just for the sake of making others feel shitty, which is just a nasty thing to have going around the scene

however, like i said, it's a positive/negative thing. the spontaneity and variety you get from cheese being in the game excites people, and putting moral rules on how to play a video game is ultimately pretty silly. i cheese all the time and have done the nastiest cheeses in existence. i've even planetary fortress rushed in LOTV. so i certainly don't blame myself for that, nor do i think cheese should be banned or shamed. but as much as i ultimately agree with the positive view on cheese, i still have respect for the shitty feelings it can cause

the other thing is that it affects the pro scene and ladder very differently, yet ladder players are trying to copy the pro scene. so you have this sort of odd situation where on the pro level you have to be insanely good to cheese a lot and win, which makes it harder to hate on cheese because it doesn't really seem to work that often. but then you get trolls on ladder cheesing you and saying that you're bad for not defending it because it "doesn't work at pro level." well, a lot of shit doesn't work at pro level and people take that shit to GM anyway

On July 17 2018 09:47 coverpunch wrote:
You can say the same thing as in sports: if you don't want to be cheesed, then don't lose to cheese.

what is the usefulness of this statement other than to communicate that you don't care when other people are frustrated?
TL+ Member
AxiomBlurr
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
786 Posts
July 19 2018 13:17 GMT
#10
Me make pylon and cannon. Have hated cheese forever in SC BW and SC2.

When you win when you cheese do you think: "I outskilled and outplayed my opponent?" Why does cheese exist in some RTS games? If cheese was removed from SC2 would you miss it?

SC2 is not designed to be a sandbox game that allows all styles to be viable, it is intentional that some styles are viable as winning strategies and some are not. Blizzard has the authority to choose what is viable and what is not, see those destructible debris at the bottom of the ramp, they are there for a reason, Bilzzard chose to not allow a cheese strategy to be viable. More decisions like this are needed IMO.

I think Serral illustrated perfectly that he outskilled and outplayed Has. I hope Has can be become a more complete player and not rely on the BS design of P (I main P btw) and sc2 that allows lame, lazy, cheap ways to win.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL: ProLeague
18:00
Grand Finals - bo9
Dewalt vs Bonyth
ZZZero.O512
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
BRAT_OK 150
ProTech60
StarCraft: Brood War
Mini 748
ZZZero.O 485
EffOrt 479
Soma 158
Aegong 46
Terrorterran 36
LuMiX 7
League of Legends
Grubby4885
Dendi1851
Counter-Strike
fl0m2102
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King200
Chillindude50
Westballz44
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor788
Liquid`Hasu666
Other Games
FrodaN3326
B2W.Neo1189
Mlord670
mouzStarbuck310
Pyrionflax178
elazer91
Sick61
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick46055
EGCTV1597
StarCraft 2
angryscii 41
Other Games
BasetradeTV34
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HeavenSC 51
• Adnapsc2 38
• musti20045 2
• Kozan
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• 3DClanTV 48
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler168
League of Legends
• masondota2523
Other Games
• imaqtpie2154
• Shiphtur349
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
14h 40m
Replay Cast
1d 3h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 13h
WardiTV European League
1d 19h
MaNa vs sebesdes
Mixu vs Fjant
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs goblin
Gerald vs Babymarine
Krystianer vs YoungYakov
PiGosaur Monday
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
WardiTV European League
2 days
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
Replay Cast
4 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
4 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
5 days
FEL
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
FEL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 2v2 Season 3
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.