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On April 22 2018 22:22 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2018 18:49 Shady Sands wrote:On April 22 2018 08:04 Letmelose wrote:On April 22 2018 05:11 Shady Sands wrote:
If you're not showing your data, how are we to believe that you have exhaustively searched through every map on TLPD?
Also your methodology for rebutting 1) above is wrong - you need to show the average, std, and max ELO scores for those maps, by race, to get a sense of whether they were Zerg-favored or not. Can you stop flooding my blogs with posts demanding a table form of the TLPD that far outstrips the original dataset I've been working with in terms of quality? When you're not posting blatantly wrong stuff that exposes your lack of understanding of Brood War, such as singling out Katrina and Katrina SE out of all maps to complain about maps that should have their records aggregated, your entire post history here is about requesting stuff that basically requires me to single handily rewrite the entire data on TLPD into a form that tickles your fancy. Can you stop making blogs that have sweeping assertions in them about various players based on incomplete data? a) you need to prove that you've looked at all the maps and filtered each of them for 2100 and up ELO. e.g. there could be maps where certain players have done well which you have simply omitted from your analysis. b) your method for determining whether a map is favored for a race is not statistically rigorous. c) your method of judging players based on whether maps are favored for a given race is not rigorous enough for you to say shit like this: Flash was a TvT specialist (it was his match-up boasting the highest career win rate), who also able to see success on protoss-favoured maps. He either struggled to truly excel on zerg-favoured maps, or didn't appear much on zerg-friendly maps. d) quit translating from Korean forums and making it look like your own work. your earlier pieces, especially I didn't know you were in charge of the quality control around here, making sure all blogs about Brood War have Excel files backing up all the data mentioned, and making sure no comments involving the player Flash can be made without a full statistical analysis that goes beyond mere TLPD records, unless, of course, it is about his brilliance. It's a blog. These are my thoughts based on my research. Chill out, and try and prove me wrong instead of complaining about my blog's lack of quality (without actually adding any substance to help that lack of quality) or going off on weird tangents that has nothing to do with the subject at hand. These are my personal opinions, and of course most of it heavily influenced, or even paraphrased from wiser and more knowledgeable posters I have encountered up to now. Maybe you can up your game in terms of proving me exactly how and why I'm so wrong about Flash, and I'll spend the rest of my days paraphrasing your words instead of openly mocking it.
I already have proven why you're so wrong about Flash (and many other players).
Also I think I know why you're reluctant to share data - you want to make sure if someone else is going to rebut you, they have to do it in the most painful way possible. How is that fair?
I would love to add my own opinions as well but I don't have the time to build a TLPD scraper bot or manually click through all the screens of TLPD. If you're just generally being unhelpful in getting to the truth how can you expect anything less than hostility from those who disagree with your conclusions?
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On April 23 2018 14:37 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2018 22:22 Letmelose wrote:On April 22 2018 18:49 Shady Sands wrote:On April 22 2018 08:04 Letmelose wrote:On April 22 2018 05:11 Shady Sands wrote:
If you're not showing your data, how are we to believe that you have exhaustively searched through every map on TLPD?
Also your methodology for rebutting 1) above is wrong - you need to show the average, std, and max ELO scores for those maps, by race, to get a sense of whether they were Zerg-favored or not. Can you stop flooding my blogs with posts demanding a table form of the TLPD that far outstrips the original dataset I've been working with in terms of quality? When you're not posting blatantly wrong stuff that exposes your lack of understanding of Brood War, such as singling out Katrina and Katrina SE out of all maps to complain about maps that should have their records aggregated, your entire post history here is about requesting stuff that basically requires me to single handily rewrite the entire data on TLPD into a form that tickles your fancy. Can you stop making blogs that have sweeping assertions in them about various players based on incomplete data? a) you need to prove that you've looked at all the maps and filtered each of them for 2100 and up ELO. e.g. there could be maps where certain players have done well which you have simply omitted from your analysis. b) your method for determining whether a map is favored for a race is not statistically rigorous. c) your method of judging players based on whether maps are favored for a given race is not rigorous enough for you to say shit like this: Flash was a TvT specialist (it was his match-up boasting the highest career win rate), who also able to see success on protoss-favoured maps. He either struggled to truly excel on zerg-favoured maps, or didn't appear much on zerg-friendly maps. d) quit translating from Korean forums and making it look like your own work. your earlier pieces, especially I didn't know you were in charge of the quality control around here, making sure all blogs about Brood War have Excel files backing up all the data mentioned, and making sure no comments involving the player Flash can be made without a full statistical analysis that goes beyond mere TLPD records, unless, of course, it is about his brilliance. It's a blog. These are my thoughts based on my research. Chill out, and try and prove me wrong instead of complaining about my blog's lack of quality (without actually adding any substance to help that lack of quality) or going off on weird tangents that has nothing to do with the subject at hand. These are my personal opinions, and of course most of it heavily influenced, or even paraphrased from wiser and more knowledgeable posters I have encountered up to now. Maybe you can up your game in terms of proving me exactly how and why I'm so wrong about Flash, and I'll spend the rest of my days paraphrasing your words instead of openly mocking it. I already have proven why you're so wrong about Flash (and many other players). Also I think I know why you're reluctant to share data - I'm fairly certain you have a TLPD scraper bot, which would violate Teamliquid ToS, and you don't want the mods to know. Cute.
I'm all for bouncing ideas off people, but this is the kind of quality discussion we had thus far:
"There could be maps where certain players have done well which you have simply omitted from your analysis."
-> Wow. I could have made a mistake. The sheer possibility of my errors proves me wrong.
"You decided to troll some Flash fans with your Ace match losing streak analysis."
-> Did you feel wronged in the past? Better vent it in a totally unrelated discussion, because that just proves me wrong from now, until the end of time.
"I'm fairly certain you have a TLPD scraper bot, which would violate Teamliquid ToS, and you don't want the mods to know."
-> You are as accurate in your assessment of me, as you are informed on the topic of Brood War. I think this is a statement we can both agree on.
Let us suppose that you have proven me wrong with your top notch analysis, like the one where the possibility of a single match-up specialist on performing well on a plethora of maps (even if they these maps doesn't cater towards that specific match-up) renders all of my points moot. Or all of the other hypothetical flaws or even sinister data manipulation that could have taken place, which of course, must mean that such circumstances were actually the case.
Now that your main point of focus is dealt with, can we actually move on the part where you convince me with counter-points involving the topic and hand, perhaps with the kind of quality data and actual tangible evidence that far surpasses the kind of false analysis that comes from my side. Or is imagining that I'm wrong enough for you?
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You do have the time to post. You obviously have the time to vent, and you even have the time to edit your previous posts.
You spend more time trying to break down who I am as a person, rather than trying to counter my points. That's not time well spent. That's just incompetence on your part. Time or some secret access to a hidden treasure of data is not the issue here. You don't even lack passion.
I love a good back-and-forth on the topic of Brood War. You are trying your hardest to make it anything but that, but at the same time lament your lack of time. Perhaps it is useless engagements such as this that's holding you back.
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10387 Posts
I remember the first BW Proleague match I had the pleasure to attend in person, it was KTF vs STX in the 08-09 Proleague, on Flash's birthday.
He lost twice that day, to Calm and Kal .. that was a pretty good day.
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On April 24 2018 14:42 ArvickHero wrote:
I remember the first BW Proleague match I had the pleasure to attend in person, it was KTF vs STX in the 08-09 Proleague, on Flash's birthday.
He lost twice that day, to Calm and Kal .. that was a pretty good day.
That phenomenon would be something I'd personally call a team having a clean best-of-three sweep versus the unfortunate player. It has the effect of being a reverse situation of an all-kill, where a lone player sweeps the enemy team.
It is one of the worst days for any player, since the rest of his team members pulled their weight by winning their matches, and all that player needed to do was win one out of two games he played that day in order to secure his team the victory.
Such occasions always brought uproar in the Korean communities (especially if the player in question was well respected), and if I remember right, this is all of the clean sweeps done versus Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash that happened after 2007 (when Flash made his debut):
Shinhan ProLeague 2007 R1
AirForce ACE sweeps Bisu (BoxeR, and ChRh)
Shinhan ProLeague 2008
OGN Sparkyz sweeps Bisu in the play-offs (cHalRengE, and Luxury)
Shinhan ProLeague 2008/2009
STX SouL sweeps Flash (Calm, and Kal)
SK Telecom T1 sweeps Jaedong in the ProLeague finals (Hyuk, and FanTaSy)
Shinhan ProLeague 2009/2010
CJ Entus sweeps Flash (EffOrt, and SnOw)
SK Telecom T1 sweeps Jaedong (Bisu, and s2)
SK Planet ProLeague S1
SK Telecom T1 sweeps Flash in the ProLeague finals (FanTaSy, and Bisu)
I'm not sure which teams were the most successful in terms of sweeping a particular player, but I think SK Telecom T1 must have been up there. Jaedong once said on stream that it was the most difficult to prepare for SK Telecom T1 because he had to prepare all three match-ups in roughly equal proportions.
I must imagine for Flash, maybe it was a similar situation when preparing for CJ Entus, because they had snipers at the ready from all three races (EffOrt for ZvT, SnOw for PvT, and sKyHigh for TvT).
I don't think Bisu had much struggle versus a team in particular ever since he moved away from MBC Game HERO, but I could be mistaken.
Maybe one day I'll try to see how well certain players fared versus specific teams, and the potential reasons for that apart from the obvious general roster strength of the team as a whole. It certainly is an interesting topic in my opinion.
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So why aren't you releasing your data again? Because none of the reasons you provide are a good reason why you won't.
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On April 25 2018 18:12 Shady Sands wrote:
So why aren't you releasing your data again? Because none of the reasons you provide are a good reason why you won't.
Are you here to discuss Brood War? Or do you find our conversations thoroughly stimulating regardless of topic, because I personally am bored out of my mind trying to get you to talk about Brood War and perhaps even the topic at hand.
If you have nothing of substance to provide, I have no reasons to keep you on board. Discuss Brood War. Provide your own insight on the topic. Think about me and my intentions on your own time, privately, and discretely. I sincerely hope you find the passion to discuss Brood War, or I fear I'll just give up, and find other people to bounce ideas off, because quite frankly, your usefulness is starting to run out really quickly.
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EPT
