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Star Wars got f***** ** *** *** - Page 2
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17536 Posts
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Archeon
3265 Posts
On December 25 2017 07:12 Jerubaal wrote: Can I just point out how simple and better it would have been for them to simply portray the enemy as Empire holdouts rather than a whole new thing (that just happens to use all the same equipment/ships). There's also no depiction of the scope of the First Order? Is this their whole army fleet? Is this their whole army? I assumed that the FO is a leftover of the empire that got hijacked by a Sith from the outer rim (or Plageius, which would make more sense, but is less likely), but I didn't read anything since they killed the EU. As to how large the FO actually is, I have no idea. I was under the impression that the reason only the rebels are fighting them is that they control the majority of the universe (which is why Leia seeks allies in the outer rim) or are at least by far the largest power remaining, but those are only assumptions. And yes, I would have liked to get some politics and background here and there, but I actually enjoyed the basic plot of the prequels and like lots of worldbuilding. Disney played it safe though and went with the OT-way of saying basically nothing about wtf is actually happening in the background. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On December 25 2017 11:34 Archeon wrote: I assumed that the FO is a leftover of the empire that got hijacked by a Sith from the outer rim (or Plageius, which would make more sense, but is less likely), but I didn't read anything since they killed the EU. As to how large the FO actually is, I have no idea. I was under the impression that the reason only the rebels are fighting them is that they control the majority of the universe (which is why Leia seeks allies in the outer rim) or are at least by far the largest power remaining, but those are only assumptions. And yes, I would have liked to get some politics and background here and there, but I actually enjoyed the basic plot of the prequels and like lots of worldbuilding. Disney played it safe though and went with the OT-way of saying basically nothing about wtf is actually happening in the background. The Phantom Menace was actually pretty ambiguous about a lot of things, like how powerful the Trade Federation actually was, and how powerful the Republic was. The only thing that is made clear is that the Trade Federation is way more powerful than Naboo, and is illegally using their private military to bully Naboo. The actual dispute is never touched on, and it is never said what the trade dispute encompassed. The extent to which the Republic can actually punish the Trade Federation is also never really touched on. Obviously, the Trade Federation has little to fear from the Republic militarily, and is more concerned with their business being hampered by sanctions. Additionally, it's also shown that there are certain planets that are not part of the Republic, like Tatooine. The next film focuses primarily on Count Dooku, even though Nute Gunray is actively trying to assassinate Padme, and shows that he is part of a separatist movement. The other leaders are never mentioned by name, and even in Revenge of The Sith, Palpatine says "Wipe out Viceroy Gunray and the others" to Anakin. Who is the leader of the flying bug people? What's his gripe with the Republic? We'll never ever know. Unless we read "the books". I've always thought of the books as ways of explaining away plotholes and loose ends in the movies. "Have a problem? You probably didn't read the books." It's silly. | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
Thus ending any interest in anything other than the books I still haven't finished reading with regards to new Star Wars. I have only read 60 of the 300 or however many novels there are and there is still tones of Star Wars out there for me to discover. I will probably never finish reading them all as it's obviously not the only thing I read. 'I made the mistake of watching the Force awakens and vowed to never watch another (we need a new name because it's just not Star Wars any more) movie. So much has happened and they have created so many loveable characters in the real (legacy books) Star Wars galaxy. This was a process that took decades and came from the minds of some of the best science fiction writers in the world all largely cooperating to make something beautiful. To just turn around and say ‘yeah none of that happened. Here are some special effects and explosions and absolutely no discernible story what’s so ever. This is the real Star Wars’. Frankly makes me want to punch someone. But instead I will just happily read some more novels and smile and say ‘me too’ whenever one of my Chinese kids says he loves Star Wars. edit: discernible not disenable. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
the writers also didn't feel the need to go fully into the disputes for the sake of the audience, they omitted things that weren't central to the story partially for the audience's sake and partially for the sake of brevity. it worked, however, because there was never really a glaring plot hole that demanded explanation, everything presumably happened before the events in episode 1 to set off the trade disputes/precursor to the war. in episode 7, however, we have facts that completely and utterly conflict with episode 6. the galactic empire lost a massive engagement (presumably, there were still a ton of star destroyers so who knows what actually happened) where they lost their 2 defacto commanders and the second deathstar. then episode 7 comes along, jumps ahead a few years, and doesn't really explain who or what the new order is, or where the empire is, or any of these important facts that need to be told for the space opera's drama to make any sense. like the first half of episode 7 all you really see is the FO's one star destroyer and it's like "okay, cool, it's just one ship i guess.." then they suddenly have a MULTISHOT DEATHSTAR that puts the empire to shame. like what?? who are these people, where is the republic... there needs to be some kind of exposition instead of just hand waving.. like if you existed in the star wars universe, you would know "oh right, the empire retreated to the outer rim, the republic is disarming because they're complacent pacifists who forgot the clone/civil wars, and there empire is coming back under the first order." just imagine how much news small scale modern wars drive, then imagine a galactic civil war.. it's literally everything anyone would be talking about because it would impact everything from credit inflation to trade routes to hyperspace lanes. yet as an observer to the universe, we know nothing. that's the job of the writer, they have to creatively weave in the context of the situation without putting us in a 3 hour galactic senate meeting. think about episode 1 on Tatooine. when they're first crash landing on the planet, quigon and the security officer argue about how dangerous the planet is because it's not under the republican dominion, but rather it is under Hutt control (an important clarification for audiences because in episode 4 it's under imperial control, showing that the republic is less expansive). because of this, the party is unlikely to find allies and they have to be careful. furthermore, for some reason republic credits aren't accepted on the planet (and i think they mention that naboo's currency isn't good either), so both the queen's treasury and the jedi treasury is of no use. as a result, they have to go on the adventure to find a way to pay to fix their ship, causing them to run into anakin in a somewhat natural way. compare the whole Tatooine encounter to the casino planet, where we know literally nothing about who the people are, why they do what they do, or what they value (other than money). is it some neutral third party? are they imperial bankers? republic bankers? the code breaker's comment makes it seem like they're neutral, but then why did finn and rose have to be so sneaky? why couldn't they just pay their way, they were there on leia's pocketbook (if it the plan worked), they should have just walked right in.. the whole scene just makes no sense given the world building | ||
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Ethelis
United States2399 Posts
On December 24 2017 06:35 Starlightsun wrote: Disney is even more evil than neo-Blizzard.  No franchise is safe from their rape. In fact they will probably team up for Starcraft: The Movie, featuring the cast: Shia Labouf as Raynor, Scarlett Johansen as Kerrigan, and Kevin Hart as Zeratul. At the end they will put in shout out to Korean e-sports, starring Ken Jeong as Boxer.Ken Jeong as a Larva/FBH type progamer is something I'd oddly be interested in watching. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1716 Posts
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Archeon
3265 Posts
On December 25 2017 14:07 ninazerg wrote: The Phantom Menace was actually pretty ambiguous about a lot of things, like how powerful the Trade Federation actually was, and how powerful the Republic was. The only thing that is made clear is that the Trade Federation is way more powerful than Naboo, and is illegally using their private military to bully Naboo. The actual dispute is never touched on, and it is never said what the trade dispute encompassed. The extent to which the Republic can actually punish the Trade Federation is also never really touched on. Obviously, the Trade Federation has little to fear from the Republic militarily, and is more concerned with their business being hampered by sanctions. Additionally, it's also shown that there are certain planets that are not part of the Republic, like Tatooine. The next film focuses primarily on Count Dooku, even though Nute Gunray is actively trying to assassinate Padme, and shows that he is part of a separatist movement. The other leaders are never mentioned by name, and even in Revenge of The Sith, Palpatine says "Wipe out Viceroy Gunray and the others" to Anakin. Who is the leader of the flying bug people? What's his gripe with the Republic? We'll never ever know. Unless we read "the books". I've always thought of the books as ways of explaining away plotholes and loose ends in the movies. "Have a problem? You probably didn't read the books." It's silly. Yeah not saying the prequels were super explicit, but at least I got who was fighting whom, I understood that there were a huge numbers of planets involved and that they both had standing armies of equal enough size to make the war close. There was a lot dropped on the political system going on, we learned that the Republic doesn't draft, (some?) planets within the republic send senators to participate in a parliament, there's a chancelor who gets voted by the parliament and who acts as the governing body and supreme military leader. The parliament is huge, which makes it reasonable to assume that the member-systems of the republic lie in the dozens or in the hundreds. I've been shown 3 planets in PM, 1 mostly wild planet which is probably agricultural and part of the republic, Corouscant as the beating heart of the republic and Tatooine as a neutral planet controlled by criminals. In CW they introduce a production world that IIRC separates itself as part of a larger mining corporation and allies themselves with a trading corporation and there's a neutral but this time High-tech world that specializes in cloning and will serve as the Republic's main army provider after their main production planets as part of the mining corp probably rebel. In RotS we get to see Corouscant being part of the war (which means that the war is undecided), a mining world of some sort (Charr) and that random planet Grievous is on. We get also shown a lot of planets including Kashyyk when order 66 is executed, showing that the war has spread over a large area. In the OT Bespin and Tatoine are the only inhabited planets that are part of the conflict, Bespin is some kind of mining world and Tatoine is an agricultural planet partly inhabited by tribes that attack normal people on sight. The empire seems to be some fascist dictatorship or absolute monarchy. I learn IIRC that the emperor abolishes a senate, so there was some kind of power grab going on. So I can basically say zero about the actual size of the conflict in the OT. I know the empire can field ~10 star destroyer and a super star destroyer, as well as produce 2 death stars. The rebel fleet consists of ~10-20 larger than fighter ships in RotJ. The empire I assume is superior in space because we get to know that the Empire is winning the space battle in episode 6 and the rebels ditch their base twice when the empire finds them. Which is roughly the amount of information I get from the new series about the conflict going on there. | ||
Falling
Canada11524 Posts
"Holding her is dangerous. If word of this gets out, it could generate sympathy for the Rebellion in the senate." Commander "Leave that to me. Send a distress signal and then inform the senate that all aboard were killed." Vader There's a lot to infer just from that alone. Then we have a conference room that efficiently gives us some sense of the political rivalries, strength assessments, and power shifts. Tagge: "Until this battle station is fully operational we are vulnerable. The Rebel Alliance is too well equipped. They're more dangerous than you realize." Motti: "Dangerous to your starfleet, Commander, not to this battle station!" Tagge: "The Rebellion will continue to gain support in the Imperial Senate as long as..." Tarkin: "The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away. Tagge: "That's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?" Tarkin: "The regional governors now have direct control over the territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station." And so on. Those little scenes flesh out what we need to know about the politics beyond what we've been given in the opening crawl, the battle between Rebels and Vader. But here's the thing, it's also apples and oranges. A New Hope is the first movie in a series. It's the Entry Point. So it needs to give us enough information to understand the action. But it doesn't need to connect to old information. We just need enough for the action to be sensible- everything else is bonus to flesh out the world to make is seem believable. Force Awakens and Last Jedi are not stand alone films, nor are they the first films of a brand new franchise. One of their jobs is to give a sensible connection from the old material to the new- to a give a plausible scenario of what could happen in the intervening years. That's a taller order. You absolutely can jump ahead in time. CS Lewis did it with Prince Caspian. He radically changed the landscape and politics and almost everything about Narnia from his first book. Terry Brooks did it from his original trilogy to his quadrology. What was the center of civilization in the first had become the border town of the later centuries. The warring cities in the south became the powerhouse. The elves disappeared, etc. There's a huge change and for awhile, that remains a mystery. It's part of what draws the reader in- what happened in the intervening years? That's a question inherent in a sequel that jumps ahead in time like that- something that's not true of a story that starts a series. And right now both films are adamantly refusing to deal with the past. The scenario they are projecting makes no sense using Return of the Jedi as a starting point. This would make more sense if Return of the Jedi did not exist, but Darth Vader and the Emperor died of old age. That's the only way a government that blew up two Death Stars and two Sith has absolutely zero support anywhere in the galaxy. Han somehow escaped Boba Fett before getting to Jabba and has bumming around the galaxy. Luke could never face Vader and goes crazy like Yoda. Leia has fought the endless defeat for the last several decades and is ready to curl up and die. A proper projection of Return of the Jedi would give us a proper Civil War with maybe half the galaxy unaligned or broken into their own rival factions. The victories of the Old Trilogy need to mean something. The New Republic control a quarter of the known galaxy, the Empire loyalists another quarter (or more). Coruscant has maybe remained out of reach and so the Republic has never gained legitimacy- or perhaps it's been won and lost multiple times. But these writers and directors are too cautious and played it too safe, and had to give another repeat of the Empire vs Rebels. | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
My only major gripes are a) Kylo Ren is such a weak villain character-wise (and pretty much every New Order character) and that hopelessness->speech about hope->miracle happens cycle repeated like 5 times in the movie lol | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On December 29 2017 02:23 c3rberUs wrote: My only major gripes are a) Kylo Ren is such a weak villain character-wise (and pretty much every New Order character) and that hopelessness->speech about hope->miracle happens cycle repeated like 5 times in the movie lol This is the spark that lights the fire to lead the rebellioN!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13996 Posts
On December 29 2017 02:23 c3rberUs wrote: Just watched this today, and in a few words, I'd describe The Last Jedi as less of a Star Wars film and more of a Star Wars spoof; it was weird but entertaining. With that said, I actually really enjoyed the movie, especially after letting go of my feelings about TFA and beyond. I just knew at some point while watching the film that Star Wars (under Darth Mickey) has taken a new direction (that and the lore is basically screwed) My only major gripes are a) Kylo Ren is such a weak villain character-wise (and pretty much every New Order character) and that hopelessness->speech about hope->miracle happens cycle repeated like 5 times in the movie lol What are you on about? Tarkin aint got shit on Hux | ||
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
I'm not gonna lie now, I absolutely hate with a passion what they did in The Last Jedi, how they butchered the story, the old heroes and spat on all their accomplishments. I'm sad that I feel this way, its wrong to have so much hate in one's heart but at the moment the only thing that will bring me happiness is seeing SW out of Disney and Rian's claws, preferably in a manner which sees Disney suffer severely to the point they never recover. I probably will write my own blog with my opinions on this at some point. | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
tlj had some really silly parts and i took a pissbreak during the casino sequence, but i thought it was pretty enjoyable. anyone who expected the new trilogy to just be han/luke/leia adventures part 2... like what, you want to watch a bunch of 70 year olds try and be believable action heroes? if they didn't recast those 3 there was no way it would have worked and if they had recast them people would lose their shit | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
On December 27 2017 00:15 iFU.pauline wrote: Hope someone manages to learn about gravity and space for star wars 9. this is the series where spaceships have always, explicitly behaved like they're fighting world war 2 naval/air battles. it's just how it is... | ||
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Greg_J
China4409 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1716 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
I feel like Cranstons contrast between the mindset of an artist versus a businessman aligns well with the difference in people's perception of TLJ. It might interest people in this thread. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
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