In the transition to SC2, many of Brood War's iconic units would be transferred over to a new engine and a new game. However, in the case of the carrier, some subtle details ended up getting lost in translation in the transfer process.
In the infographic above, I've outlined three of what I consider were the most important factors for the carrier's usefulness in intense micro situations. These factors combined in important ways to create a synergy effect which allowed skilled players to consistently fire at targets from maximum range (leash range).
There were other differences in addition to those outlined (such as interceptors below a certain hp/shield threshold in BW automatically returning to the carrier to regenerate), but in my view these additional differences don't impact basic control as much as the listed mechanics.
Nony's video All of these mechanics have already been covered by Nony in his 2012 video comparing BW and SC2 carrier mechanics.
Blizzard did patch the carrier in Heart of the Swarm, presumably in response to that video. Though, they ended up adding only one of the functionalities Nony covered in his video. What Blizzard's carrier patch fixed, was that it allowed a player to retarget between living targets in leash range.
I'll link Nony's video here as well for those who prefer to have it explained in a different medium:
Ahli's BW Carrier Mod The point of this article is not to repeat all of this information, but rather to inform and create awareness around an existing and fully functional, fully data driven implementation of all these mechanics. The modder Ahli (teamliquid profile, reddit profile) is behind this mod, and it's based on an earlier trigger based solution by decemberscalm (both were involved in helping out starbow).
Ahli is also involved in other Blizzard games, helping out in the Heroes of the Storm community with his Observer UI. I'd pay extra attention to this guy's feedback in the future Blizz!
Also worth mentioning is that the loiter radius of interceptors was increased. This lets the interceptors roam around farther from the target when firing.
Sick input as always LaLuSh, would be really nice to see this fixed in LotV. I think the chances aren't too bad and the work has basically aready be done by Ahli anyway.
In all seriousness though, brilliant infograph and gifs that display the the information in a clear and concise manner. Brilliantly done. I thank you for this and wish Blizzard would actually look into this.
@david kim: Would appreciate seeing this addressed in an upcoming Community Feedback Update. Knowing Blizzard's thoughts on these Carrier features would be nice.
I'm going to go on a limb and assume that this type of micro isn't viewer friendly enough in Blizz's eyes (it's too "hidden"). [Edit] Or, they think it won't have a big enough impact on gameplay to justify it's inclusion.
On July 09 2015 03:47 LaLuSh wrote: Also worth mentioning is that the loiter radius of interceptors was increased. This lets the interceptors roam around farther from the target when firing.
Love this change, btw. I always thought the SC2 interceptor animation looked "choked" in some way. I imagine it could act as a soft counter balance to the superior control over the interceptors (they're slightly more vulnerable).
I feel like interceptors were alot more durable? Like they were either just more durable, or were completely healed once they docked and relaunched. Perhaps I am wrong? I get the whole leash micro thing, but I always feel like interceptors die a whole lot faster than they used to.
I've been doing carrier builds since WoL(and stuck at plat forever), played much less recently because of my studies but I think I have a few extra things to say about carriers.
First, carriers are extremely upgrade dependent. Interceptors deal 5(+1/upgrade)x2 damage per attack, so each air attack upgrade increases 20% damage, which is crazy! On the other hand that also means that each point of armor reduces damage by 20%, which is also crazy. I believe it's one of the problems(along with build time) preventing an effective late game carrier transition, because when you try to transition into carriers opponent would already have +2 armor at least, and you have to invest in air attack upgrades to make them actually deal meaningful damage.
Another difference between BW and SC2 carrier is how fragile the interceptors are, in particular affected by the meta they exist in. In BW when you go carriers, terrans counter with goliaths, which are primarily used to damage the carriers themselves and zone them away without being able to tear interceptors apart. In SC2 however, when you go carriers people just counter with stim marines which are really good at melting interceptors. Same thing happens against zerg, albeit to a lesser extent because hydralisks have projectile attacks that takes time to travel to their target, which leads overkill on the interceptors and reducing the overall damage. But there are still fungal growths to consider, once rooted the interceptors simply wont do anything.
For the first problem a simple fix would be to change the interceptors attack to 10x1 to make it less upgrade dependent, or maybe reduce a bit if 50% less armor reduction for the target is too much, they are just numbers anyway.
For the second problem I suppose you could increase interceptor HP. Another idea is to increase the radius which the interceptors circle/flyby their targets when attacking. For those of you who dont know, blizzard stealth patched the interceptor flyby radius a long time ago(you can look at some old White-Ra videos to see them in action). I am not 100% sure about this but perhaps increasing the flyby radius would screw with the targeting AI a bit, as interceptors are constantly entering and getting out of range, anti air fire would have to keep switching targets instead of focusing down a single interceptor, which reduces the chances of them being destroyed.
Finally getting graviton catapult significantly increases interceptor launch speed(to almost instantly, still within launch range though), so please for the love of god research it while your first carrier is building! It's power comes from the fact that you get a damage burst on your first volley, which is probably going to kill a couple of units and immediately remove firepower from the enemy.
PS here's a trick of how I deal with the leash range problem(being unable to instantly launch trailing interceptors at a target between launch range and leash range) when you are trying to snipe a high value target. I approach a target(usually a hatch) I want to snipe from the side, launch interceptors at something within my carriers' launch range, then switch onto the target immediately after the interceptors are out. I think Grubby did this in a super epic WCS EU PvP where he launched his interceptors at his own msc(in front of the carriers), after which he switched target to a fleeing archon within leash range and killed it.
On July 09 2015 04:22 Musicus wrote: Sick input as always LaLuSh, would be really nice to see this fixed in LotV. I think the chances aren't too bad and the work has basically aready be done by Ahli anyway.
I have only shown that it is possible with a lot of workarounds in the "current" engine. But when Blizzard would add it, they would add features to the engine to allow it much, much easier and with a better performance.
Technically, my implementation is super hacky but functional, e.g. sometimes Interceptors are outside the carrier, invincible and hidden. That is not something Blizzard would release because they can just alter the engine.
Another aspect that is currently not really doable is the Valkyrie's weapon behavior (missile tracking and impacting on a position with a static offset from a moving unit). I added it to Starbow, but it uses a rather horrible workaround (missiles that shoot missiles that shoot missiles that ...). Blizzard improved some other aspects in LotV, too, where I had to use weird workarounds in HotS. For example, picking up a Tank in Siege Mode: in HotS, you cannot pick up units that have a max movement speed of 0, in LotV Blizzard fixed that and even added it to the game. So, maybe give the Liberator the Valkyrie's shot instead of having the missiles impact on the unit?
On July 09 2015 04:22 Musicus wrote: Sick input as always LaLuSh, would be really nice to see this fixed in LotV. I think the chances aren't too bad and the work has basically aready be done by Ahli anyway.
I have only shown that it is possible with a lot of workarounds in the "current" engine. But when Blizzard would add it, they would add features to the engine to allow it much, much easier and with a better performance.
Technically, my implementation is super hacky but functional, e.g. sometimes Interceptors are outside the carrier, invincible and hidden. That is not something Blizzard would release because they can just alter the engine.
Another aspect that is currently not really doable is the Valkyrie's weapon behavior (missile tracking and impacting on a position with a static offset from a moving unit). I added it to Starbow, but it uses a rather horrible workaround (missiles that shoot missiles that shoot missiles that ...). Blizzard improved some other aspects in LotV, too, where I had to use weird workarounds in HotS. For example, picking up a Tank in Siege Mode: in HotS, you cannot pick up units that have a max movement speed of 0, in LotV Blizzard fixed that and even added it to the game. So, maybe give the Liberator the Valkyrie's shot instead of having the missiles impact on the unit?
Your Starbow Valkyrie shot looks pretty sick though, I saw it .
Id see them saying they dont want to implement it because its hard to explain or read the mechanics. Theres no intuitive or obvious way that you learn the type of control given by the bw carrier. With unleash interceptors you have a blatant obvious way for a lesser player to grasp the mechanics you are trying to get them to use. I think its why air unit micro kind of sucks. It looks cool but how do you explain in game right off the bat how to micro a bw air unit without a tutorial?
The community and blizzard have different concepts of micro when it comes to gameplay. Blizzard sees it as extra actions taken for a unit to perform better or achieve damage. Hit a button that does a thing, use a skill that forces someone to move or split, hit a button that makes your unit work. The community sees micro kind of like achieving maximum effeciency with that unit. Stutter stepping, blinking before a projectile attack hits, or attack gliding with muta. In my opinion anyway.
So for blizzards idea of micro it needs to be clear and obvious. If its not spelled out or intuitive from the mechanics then it needs to be a skill or upgrade that adds "micro" into the game. They don't want a situation where experience with the game itself gives you an advantage. They dont want micro to be something that you see someone else do and not understand.
Im not saying I agree with the idea that you have to show every mechanic or skill during gameplay super easily but thats the path blizzard wants to take in order to get the mythical casual to play the game long term.
On July 09 2015 06:29 KaZeFenrir wrote: Id see them saying they dont want to implement it because its hard to explain or read the mechanics. Theres no intuitive or obvious way that you learn the type of control given by the bw carrier. With unleash interceptors you have a blatant obvious way for a lesser player to grasp the mechanics you are trying to get them to use. I think its why air unit micro kind of sucks. It looks cool but how do you explain in game right off the bat how to micro a bw air unit without a tutorial?
I figured out how the carrier in Brood War works as a six year old.
On July 09 2015 06:29 KaZeFenrir wrote: Id see them saying they dont want to implement it because its hard to explain or read the mechanics. Theres no intuitive or obvious way that you learn the type of control given by the bw carrier. With unleash interceptors you have a blatant obvious way for a lesser player to grasp the mechanics you are trying to get them to use. I think its why air unit micro kind of sucks. It looks cool but how do you explain in game right off the bat how to micro a bw air unit without a tutorial?
I figured out how the carrier in Brood War works as a six year old.
The whole baby sitting philosophy in sc2 is a total joke. Most of us played broodwar as young kids and we understood easily. Dota2 is one of the most counter-intuitive flat out illogical games and look how they're doing!
Hard things don't matter too much for begginers cause they're caught up learning the basics and once they're advanced enough to have to care about the more difficult stuff it won't be confusing to them anymore.
I would even argue that it can make the learning process of a game more rewarding, if there's more things to figure out over a longer period of time you'll feel progress until you know it all, even when your mechanical skill isn't increasing.
On July 09 2015 06:29 KaZeFenrir wrote: Id see them saying they dont want to implement it because its hard to explain or read the mechanics. Theres no intuitive or obvious way that you learn the type of control given by the bw carrier. With unleash interceptors you have a blatant obvious way for a lesser player to grasp the mechanics you are trying to get them to use. I think its why air unit micro kind of sucks. It looks cool but how do you explain in game right off the bat how to micro a bw air unit without a tutorial?
I figured out how the carrier in Brood War works as a six year old.
Well yeah but this is new blizzard not the one from back in the day. Not to be a dick but you read most of their design or community posts and its all about communicatimg to the PLAYER how to use a skill, unit, or ability. Everything needs to be obvious and clear from the outset or at least easily discoverable. Its not bad gameplay design, honestly, as intuitive game design is a great thing when you dont need a tutorial to explain everything. You want the player yo discover new things on their own and feel rewarded by it.
The main problem is that soo much of starcraft is a game based from a different time and thats where its biggest fans come from. They dont want anymore "hidden" mechanics or skills that youre not going to understand if you see someone else do it, or anything youre going to have to google. They want you to figure out strategies, not how to use a unit to its maximum potential, or how a unit did thi or that.
Think about how much effort they put into making starcraft a game people want to WATCH, from the skill to the units to "more exciting gameplay". For the most part the community hates it because they just want a fun game, the game from the 90s they all played or heard about.
But blizzard wants something that is "fun" for casual players to watch and play and easy to get into without a lot of searching on the tl forums. If you want to go farther in the game those are things youll have to do, but for the casual they just want a pick up and play game thats easily understood. Then hopefully those people will stay long enough to do the research to be better at the game or wath tournements.
The big problem I see is that they didnt design it that way from the start. Starcraft 2 has no idea who its for anymore and Blizzard wants it to be more accessible for newbies, which makes the gameplay less engaging for higher tier players. I think this is why there are soo many hard counters and each new release has seen them focus on adding in mostly old units that are revamped while trying to push for those units to be used in specific ways, such as harasment with lotv. Its like a half effort to appease older fans while providing the new gamer obvious tools to do certain things obviously and easily in game.
On July 09 2015 08:45 Uncultured wrote: I thought they made these or similar changes for LotV? Was that just me hoping really, really hard?
They completely changed the carriers functionality in LotV to deploy interceptors in a target area and have them patrol, or at least from what i understand since they are not used in LotV ever still.
On July 09 2015 08:45 Uncultured wrote: I thought they made these or similar changes for LotV? Was that just me hoping really, really hard?
They completely changed the carriers functionality in LotV to deploy interceptors in a target area and have them patrol, or at least from what i understand since they are not used in LotV ever still.
On July 09 2015 06:29 KaZeFenrir wrote: Id see them saying they dont want to implement it because its hard to explain or read the mechanics. Theres no intuitive or obvious way that you learn the type of control given by the bw carrier. With unleash interceptors you have a blatant obvious way for a lesser player to grasp the mechanics you are trying to get them to use. I think its why air unit micro kind of sucks. It looks cool but how do you explain in game right off the bat how to micro a bw air unit without a tutorial?
I figured out how the carrier in Brood War works as a six year old.
Dota2 is one of the most counter-intuitive flat out illogical games and look how they're doing!
That is a great example. DotA 1 and StarCraft 1 were successful in the past, but DotA 2 is being successful right now, proving that even today, babysitting isn't the only way to go.
The gist of the OP is to point out that the SC2 carrier, while closer to the BW version, is not yet fully mimicking the BW carrier?
Players which had mod success with BW asking to get back BW units. Imo that is a drawback of asking the community, many wants players to get what they already know.
The LotV carrier has an option to launch the interceptors in a way the BW carrier doesn't allow. Do we not want to have that?
Great thread and presentation and stuff as usual. I just wanted to add some input about "difficulty of concepts, and units." We all always hear " this is too difficult for beginners to understand" etc.
Why does blizzard not simply make a few training missions dedicated to showing the unit's uses and functions in multiplayer? Similar to MOBA Hero/Champion spot lights, but do official ones for each SC2 commonly used unit/tactic.
Like show stalkers blinking up and down cliffs in tutorials, show SCVS repairing a burning planetary in another...show this leash range...etc. Might make them more adventerous when adding "difficult" things to the game that are easy to learn but hard to master.
On July 09 2015 16:13 avilo wrote: Great thread and presentation and stuff as usual. I just wanted to add some input about "difficulty of concepts, and units." We all always hear " this is too difficult for beginners to understand" etc.
Why does blizzard not simply make a few training missions dedicated to showing the unit's uses and functions in multiplayer? Similar to MOBA Hero/Champion spot lights, but do official ones for each SC2 commonly used unit/tactic.
Like show stalkers blinking up and down cliffs in tutorials, show SCVS repairing a burning planetary in another...show this leash range...etc. Might make them more adventerous when adding "difficult" things to the game that are easy to learn but hard to master.
SC2 has a 3-part introduction for each race, which is mostly about base building and some tech. Do you want to expand that to blink stalkers and any other individual spell, or shouldn't the player jump into the game to experience the actual multiplayer?
If I understand Blizzard's philosophy right, a viewer should be able to follow the battle even though he does not play the game at all. This forbids overly complex mechanics (blinking would be surely not overly complex.)
On July 09 2015 16:13 avilo wrote: Great thread and presentation and stuff as usual. I just wanted to add some input about "difficulty of concepts, and units." We all always hear " this is too difficult for beginners to understand" etc.
Why does blizzard not simply make a few training missions dedicated to showing the unit's uses and functions in multiplayer? Similar to MOBA Hero/Champion spot lights, but do official ones for each SC2 commonly used unit/tactic.
Like show stalkers blinking up and down cliffs in tutorials, show SCVS repairing a burning planetary in another...show this leash range...etc. Might make them more adventerous when adding "difficult" things to the game that are easy to learn but hard to master.
SC2 has a 3-part introduction for each race, which is mostly about base building and some tech. Do you want to expand that to blink stalkers and any other individual spell, or shouldn't the player jump into the game to experience the actual multiplayer?
If I understand Blizzard's philosophy right, a viewer should be able to follow the battle even though he does not play the game at all. This forbids overly complex mechanics (blinking would be surely not overly complex.)
Look at LoL Champ spotlights. They show what every ability/function of the unit is, and then even show tactics/strategies you can pull with those abilities. I'm talking about adding tutorials like that or just info pages, not that hard tbh.
I have doubts this will be implemented for the same reason many other "bw like" things, and even DH economy mod won't be implemented.
from what it seems sc2 in its current state is partly kept around and invested in as an advertisement for Blizzard as a brand and their current and future games.
there at hints of this when it came to other changes like depth of micro, or DH, the units look "buggy" even though it is intended, when it doesn't look neat and sparkly it may look as "bad" design to the average casual player, and hurts their brand there, which is what I believe their reason for not making changes such as these.
i don't think Carrier needs any changes as of now, they are real hard-counter to the mech style of terran, making it pretty much useless in the late game. Further buffs of Carriers or it's AI might destroy any possibilities for terran to go for mech in TvP
This is a great technical blog post. But I think for Blizzard to move on this, they need to have their hands held and shown that it's a viable thing to do in their eyes with their perspectives (as misinformed as they may be).
On July 09 2015 03:30 Heyoka wrote: Petition to have LaLush be a part of the SC2 design team
The thing is he is mostly just saying "this is how it was back in BW, it was better, and this is how it is in SC2, and it is bad".
While that is true most of the time, Blizzard, or rather Browder, has said time and time again that they don't intend to copy BW. "If people want to play BW, go do it. This is not BW" is essentially what Browder said to Kennigit, HotBid etc.
Retargeting during retreat really should be in, if only because intuitively that's how it would work, not like interceptors would have to refuel after 10 seconds of combat. Trailing interceptors look a bit odd and with fungal and parasitic bomb might even hurt protoss more. A buff to interceptor launch speed seems like the cleaner solution for that, if it's needed.
On July 09 2015 06:29 KaZeFenrir wrote: Id see them saying they dont want to implement it because its hard to explain or read the mechanics. Theres no intuitive or obvious way that you learn the type of control given by the bw carrier. With unleash interceptors you have a blatant obvious way for a lesser player to grasp the mechanics you are trying to get them to use. I think its why air unit micro kind of sucks. It looks cool but how do you explain in game right off the bat how to micro a bw air unit without a tutorial?
I figured out how the carrier in Brood War works as a six year old.
Dota2 is one of the most counter-intuitive flat out illogical games and look how they're doing!
That is a great example. DotA 1 and StarCraft 1 were successful in the past, but DotA 2 is being successful right now, proving that even today, babysitting isn't the only way to go.
I played DotA 1 religiously years ago but I have no idea on DotA 2. How is DotA 2 counter-intuitive?
On July 09 2015 03:30 Heyoka wrote: Petition to have LaLush be a part of the SC2 design team
The thing is he is mostly just saying "this is how it was back in BW, it was better, and this is how it is in SC2, and it is bad".
While that is true most of the time, Blizzard, or rather Browder, has said time and time again that they don't intend to copy BW. "If people want to play BW, go do it. This is not BW" is essentially what Browder said to Kennigit, HotBid etc.
yea I still remember watching that video. I think Sen was there too. Ludicrous.
On July 09 2015 06:29 KaZeFenrir wrote: Id see them saying they dont want to implement it because its hard to explain or read the mechanics. Theres no intuitive or obvious way that you learn the type of control given by the bw carrier. With unleash interceptors you have a blatant obvious way for a lesser player to grasp the mechanics you are trying to get them to use. I think its why air unit micro kind of sucks. It looks cool but how do you explain in game right off the bat how to micro a bw air unit without a tutorial?
I figured out how the carrier in Brood War works as a six year old.
The whole baby sitting philosophy in sc2 is a total joke. Most of us played broodwar as young kids and we understood easily. Dota2 is one of the most counter-intuitive flat out illogical games and look how they're doing!
Hard things don't matter too much for begginers cause they're caught up learning the basics and once they're advanced enough to have to care about the more difficult stuff it won't be confusing to them anymore.
I would even argue that it can make the learning process of a game more rewarding, if there's more things to figure out over a longer period of time you'll feel progress until you know it all, even when your mechanical skill isn't increasing.
yea... I blame the Steve Jobs cult for this stupid mindset.
On July 09 2015 06:29 KaZeFenrir wrote: Id see them saying they dont want to implement it because its hard to explain or read the mechanics. Theres no intuitive or obvious way that you learn the type of control given by the bw carrier. With unleash interceptors you have a blatant obvious way for a lesser player to grasp the mechanics you are trying to get them to use. I think its why air unit micro kind of sucks. It looks cool but how do you explain in game right off the bat how to micro a bw air unit without a tutorial?
I figured out how the carrier in Brood War works as a six year old.
Dota2 is one of the most counter-intuitive flat out illogical games and look how they're doing!
That is a great example. DotA 1 and StarCraft 1 were successful in the past, but DotA 2 is being successful right now, proving that even today, babysitting isn't the only way to go.
I played DotA 1 religiously years ago but I have no idea on DotA 2. How is DotA 2 counter-intuitive?
Dota 2 is the same as Dota 1, 99% true. There are some differences due to the engines and still a very few heroes not ported.
I love you Lalush for trying, Really good article. But it's such a drastic change (carrier being usefull!!!!) that it should not be adress before LOTV is more stable. Giving this ability to the carrier which can now be combined with others nice spells could lead to an imba situation (:p ) When the dust is settle and if protoss need a air buff it can be a easy viable option.
Feature News this already, TL. Blizzard, start listening. LaLuSh, awesome work, props to Nony and everyone else involved. This is awesome stuff and exactly what we need to stay healthy and constructive as a community.
Doesn't even have to be this, it just has to be revisited. So that it is actually possible to play well with what they call 'boring attack move units,' cause Blizzard have themselves called the Carrier that and that it would be a problem if Carriers were strong, because it's not a skillful unit. I can see some cool Carrier vs Widow Mine interaction where the Protoss player hits the stop button to try and not send all the Interceptors at once and have the mine shots hit fewer interceptors and stuff like that.
On July 09 2015 04:51 Vansetsu wrote: I feel like interceptors were alot more durable? Like they were either just more durable, or were completely healed once they docked and relaunched. Perhaps I am wrong? I get the whole leash micro thing, but I always feel like interceptors die a whole lot faster than they used to.
Interceptors appear more durable in Brood War because they are usually deployed at a heavy ground mech (tanks/vultures) army that has a low Goliath count. In SC2 there is tons of AA between marines, vikings, thors in the TvP dynamic.
On July 09 2015 04:51 Vansetsu wrote: I feel like interceptors were alot more durable? Like they were either just more durable, or were completely healed once they docked and relaunched. Perhaps I am wrong? I get the whole leash micro thing, but I always feel like interceptors die a whole lot faster than they used to.
Interceptors appear more durable in Brood War because they are usually deployed at a heavy ground mech (tanks/vultures) army that has a low Goliath count. In SC2 there is tons of AA between marines, vikings, thors in the TvP dynamic.
to tackle on to that, the BW mechanics allow for interesting games like this most recent one
On July 09 2015 06:29 KaZeFenrir wrote: Id see them saying they dont want to implement it because its hard to explain or read the mechanics. Theres no intuitive or obvious way that you learn the type of control given by the bw carrier. With unleash interceptors you have a blatant obvious way for a lesser player to grasp the mechanics you are trying to get them to use. I think its why air unit micro kind of sucks. It looks cool but how do you explain in game right off the bat how to micro a bw air unit without a tutorial?
I figured out how the carrier in Brood War works as a six year old.
The whole baby sitting philosophy in sc2 is a total joke. Most of us played broodwar as young kids and we understood easily. Dota2 is one of the most counter-intuitive flat out illogical games and look how they're doing!
Hard things don't matter too much for begginers cause they're caught up learning the basics and once they're advanced enough to have to care about the more difficult stuff it won't be confusing to them anymore.
I would even argue that it can make the learning process of a game more rewarding, if there's more things to figure out over a longer period of time you'll feel progress until you know it all, even when your mechanical skill isn't increasing.
Dota2 and League are indeed quite illogical but for some strange reason League tries to make their stuff sound more reasonable? At least I know the reason they gave for not having denies was because they said it didn't make sense to kill allies to prevent exp and money. And my friends repeated that to me over and over again when they first tried to get me to play... and we all know that doesn't even remotely begin to rationalize the nonsensical things that happen in both League/Dota.
But for them... at least this pretense of sensibility evidently did strike a cord with some people. But in the end... the implementation and mechanics of the game clearly don't need to strictly abide by that. So yes! More complicated stuff is good. Just write some bs about why it makes sense.
On July 09 2015 06:29 KaZeFenrir wrote: Id see them saying they dont want to implement it because its hard to explain or read the mechanics. Theres no intuitive or obvious way that you learn the type of control given by the bw carrier. With unleash interceptors you have a blatant obvious way for a lesser player to grasp the mechanics you are trying to get them to use. I think its why air unit micro kind of sucks. It looks cool but how do you explain in game right off the bat how to micro a bw air unit without a tutorial?
I figured out how the carrier in Brood War works as a six year old.
Dota2 is one of the most counter-intuitive flat out illogical games and look how they're doing!
That is a great example. DotA 1 and StarCraft 1 were successful in the past, but DotA 2 is being successful right now, proving that even today, babysitting isn't the only way to go.
I played DotA 1 religiously years ago but I have no idea on DotA 2. How is DotA 2 counter-intuitive?
I wouldn't go as far as to call it counter intuitive, but as a beginner, you have to spend around 30 minutes learning things like item recipes and secret shops. It's not as easy to pick up and play as LoL. The first times that I played DotA, I was quite lost.
On July 09 2015 04:51 Vansetsu wrote: I feel like interceptors were alot more durable? Like they were either just more durable, or were completely healed once they docked and relaunched. Perhaps I am wrong? I get the whole leash micro thing, but I always feel like interceptors die a whole lot faster than they used to.
Interceptors appear more durable in Brood War because they are usually deployed at a heavy ground mech (tanks/vultures) army that has a low Goliath count. In SC2 there is tons of AA between marines, vikings, thors in the TvP dynamic.
to tackle on to that, the BW mechanics allow for interesting games like this most recent one
On July 09 2015 04:56 uh-oh wrote: I've been doing carrier builds since WoL(and stuck at plat forever), played much less recently because of my studies but I think I have a few extra things to say about carriers.
First, carriers are extremely upgrade dependent. Interceptors deal 5(+1/upgrade)x2 damage per attack, so each air attack upgrade increases 20% damage, which is crazy! On the other hand that also means that each point of armor reduces damage by 20%, which is also crazy. I believe it's one of the problems(along with build time) preventing an effective late game carrier transition, because when you try to transition into carriers opponent would already have +2 armor at least, and you have to invest in air attack upgrades to make them actually deal meaningful damage.
Another difference between BW and SC2 carrier is how fragile the interceptors are, in particular affected by the meta they exist in. In BW when you go carriers, terrans counter with goliaths, which are primarily used to damage the carriers themselves and zone them away without being able to tear interceptors apart. In SC2 however, when you go carriers people just counter with stim marines which are really good at melting interceptors. Same thing happens against zerg, albeit to a lesser extent because hydralisks have projectile attacks that takes time to travel to their target, which leads overkill on the interceptors and reducing the overall damage. But there are still fungal growths to consider, once rooted the interceptors simply wont do anything.
For the first problem a simple fix would be to change the interceptors attack to 10x1 to make it less upgrade dependent, or maybe reduce a bit if 50% less armor reduction for the target is too much, they are just numbers anyway.
For the second problem I suppose you could increase interceptor HP. Another idea is to increase the radius which the interceptors circle/flyby their targets when attacking. For those of you who dont know, blizzard stealth patched the interceptor flyby radius a long time ago(you can look at some old White-Ra videos to see them in action). I am not 100% sure about this but perhaps increasing the flyby radius would screw with the targeting AI a bit, as interceptors are constantly entering and getting out of range, anti air fire would have to keep switching targets instead of focusing down a single interceptor, which reduces the chances of them being destroyed.
Finally getting graviton catapult significantly increases interceptor launch speed(to almost instantly, still within launch range though), so please for the love of god research it while your first carrier is building! It's power comes from the fact that you get a damage burst on your first volley, which is probably going to kill a couple of units and immediately remove firepower from the enemy.
PS here's a trick of how I deal with the leash range problem(being unable to instantly launch trailing interceptors at a target between launch range and leash range) when you are trying to snipe a high value target. I approach a target(usually a hatch) I want to snipe from the side, launch interceptors at something within my carriers' launch range, then switch onto the target immediately after the interceptors are out. I think Grubby did this in a super epic WCS EU PvP where he launched his interceptors at his own msc(in front of the carriers), after which he switched target to a fleeing archon within leash range and killed it.
Thanks for this detailed reply very informative I'll try to translate both this and the post into chinese and post on Neotv's forum, hopefully to get more attention on this.
On July 09 2015 06:29 KaZeFenrir wrote: Id see them saying they dont want to implement it because its hard to explain or read the mechanics. Theres no intuitive or obvious way that you learn the type of control given by the bw carrier. With unleash interceptors you have a blatant obvious way for a lesser player to grasp the mechanics you are trying to get them to use. I think its why air unit micro kind of sucks. It looks cool but how do you explain in game right off the bat how to micro a bw air unit without a tutorial?
I figured out how the carrier in Brood War works as a six year old.
Dota2 is one of the most counter-intuitive flat out illogical games and look how they're doing!
That is a great example. DotA 1 and StarCraft 1 were successful in the past, but DotA 2 is being successful right now, proving that even today, babysitting isn't the only way to go.
I played DotA 1 religiously years ago but I have no idea on DotA 2. How is DotA 2 counter-intuitive?
I wouldn't go as far as to call it counter intuitive, but as a beginner, you have to spend around 30 minutes learning things like item recipes and secret shops. It's not as easy to pick up and play as LoL. The first times that I played DotA, I was quite lost.
There are a million small things to learn even beyond the basics. Like if you overshoot your blink distance with blink dagger, you will only blink 4/5ths of the max range. Also I have to face the direction I'm blinking within a certain degree arc if I want the blink to be instant (super important for heroes like puck).
And every item or spell has some special exception to how it interacts with certain spells or heroes. BKB provides magic immunity, yes? But there's still a list of ultimates that can pierce BKB.
Which orb effects stack and which don't? Which orb/bash effect has the priority if they should conflict? Which auras stack and which don't?
Oh you can purge spells in dota? But why can't I purge these spells?
When I RP with Magnus, I can decide which direction the RP'd targets are gonna end up in by move clicking a split second before the RP. I don't even have to physically turn to be able to do this.
The more you sit and think the more of this stuff you find. If I go through every individual hero in the game, I'm gonna find hundreds of weird interactions and weird special cases. And truth be told most of it has absolutely zero impact on beginner level play or beginner level enjoyment.
Beginners are busy learning the heroes, the spells, the locations of shops, the items. They can play for years and not even notice the fact that dota has a million high level complexities, condradictions and exceptions to exceptions.
Using Dota2 as the example doesn't sound pretty good to me. While units in BW and to lesser extent SC2 had depth to them but they are not really overloaded with complexity in information. Moba games embrace complexity in information in general. The whole items and exception things are the example. BW and SC2 are pretty crisp and clean in information players should know but the complexity lies more in interaction and control. I prefer the game to be crisp and clean with depth. Things like Leash range,engine tweak for units to be more microable,etc are good things because they look simple on the surface but they have layers of depth to them.
On July 12 2015 00:04 SixStrings wrote: How did you make that GIF have such a high frame rate?
It's not really a gif, what you're seeing is an mp4 or webm.
You just have to record/render it in 60fps. When you upload it on gfycat it's going to be in 60fps (unless you link to the gif version, which nobody does really).
But in order to get a non-gif gfycat to display on TL you need embed scripts enabled. I had an admin approve my post to get them to display on TL.
Great blog- very accessible post. I suck at carrier micro, but it is so fun. I really don't understand why they only implemented half of Carrier micro functionality- unless it was another fundamental misunderstanding like the Phoenix and move shot.
I've always wondered how progamers microed their carriers and I tried to emulate it when BW was the thing. I had to make do with shitty explanations like "use patrol when carrier is moving" and "left click when interceptors are attacking a unit" etc. Nobody realized ranges played a major role (or used it in an explanation) in how the interceptors behaved. I myself was grasping in the dark on the test maps and was wondering why my carriers only behaved like I wanted 50% of the time.
SC2 came along and gave us a new perspective on the BW carriers. Too bad Nony's video came out in 2012. If I knew this back then I'd be stomping those terran goliaths and not the other way around.
On July 09 2015 06:29 KaZeFenrir wrote: Id see them saying they dont want to implement it because its hard to explain or read the mechanics. Theres no intuitive or obvious way that you learn the type of control given by the bw carrier. With unleash interceptors you have a blatant obvious way for a lesser player to grasp the mechanics you are trying to get them to use. I think its why air unit micro kind of sucks. It looks cool but how do you explain in game right off the bat how to micro a bw air unit without a tutorial?
I figured out how the carrier in Brood War works as a six year old.
Dota2 is one of the most counter-intuitive flat out illogical games and look how they're doing!
That is a great example. DotA 1 and StarCraft 1 were successful in the past, but DotA 2 is being successful right now, proving that even today, babysitting isn't the only way to go.
I played DotA 1 religiously years ago but I have no idea on DotA 2. How is DotA 2 counter-intuitive?
I wouldn't go as far as to call it counter intuitive, but as a beginner, you have to spend around 30 minutes learning things like item recipes and secret shops. It's not as easy to pick up and play as LoL. The first times that I played DotA, I was quite lost.
There are a million small things to learn even beyond the basics. Like if you overshoot your blink distance with blink dagger, you will only blink 4/5ths of the max range. Also I have to face the direction I'm blinking within a certain degree arc if I want the blink to be instant (super important for heroes like puck).
And every item or spell has some special exception to how it interacts with certain spells or heroes. BKB provides magic immunity, yes? But there's still a list of ultimates that can pierce BKB.
Which orb effects stack and which don't? Which orb/bash effect has the priority if they should conflict? Which auras stack and which don't?
Oh you can purge spells in dota? But why can't I purge these spells?
When I RP with Magnus, I can decide which direction the RP'd targets are gonna end up in by move clicking a split second before the RP. I don't even have to physically turn to be able to do this.
The more you sit and think the more of this stuff you find. If I go through every individual hero in the game, I'm gonna find hundreds of weird interactions and weird special cases. And truth be told most of it has absolutely zero impact on beginner level play or beginner level enjoyment.
Beginners are busy learning the heroes, the spells, the locations of shops, the items. They can play for years and not even notice the fact that dota has a million high level complexities, condradictions and exceptions to exceptions.
That means that the game has a high skill ceiling, which is great.. But a high skill ceiling does not always necessitate a high skill floor. Anyway, DotA does have a higher skill floor than some other games, but it's still popular. If it's fun, it's fun.
I feel some readers here are mistaking the purpose of this blog post.
I think the point is not necessarily that SC2 carrier should be like BW carrier, it is that SC2 carrier lacks depth/potential. BW is only used as a reference of what has been done in the past and could be used/improved next. The very issue is that in its HOTS state, the Carrier is basically a a-move unit where what a pro does with it is not much different from what a lower league player would do with it. There is no trick, no advantage gained to manage it.
On July 09 2015 06:29 KaZeFenrir wrote: Id see them saying they dont want to implement it because its hard to explain or read the mechanics. Theres no intuitive or obvious way that you learn the type of control given by the bw carrier. With unleash interceptors you have a blatant obvious way for a lesser player to grasp the mechanics you are trying to get them to use. I think its why air unit micro kind of sucks. It looks cool but how do you explain in game right off the bat how to micro a bw air unit without a tutorial?
I figured out how the carrier in Brood War works as a six year old.
The whole baby sitting philosophy in sc2 is a total joke. Most of us played broodwar as young kids and we understood easily. Dota2 is one of the most counter-intuitive flat out illogical games and look how they're doing!
Hard things don't matter too much for begginers cause they're caught up learning the basics and once they're advanced enough to have to care about the more difficult stuff it won't be confusing to them anymore.
I would even argue that it can make the learning process of a game more rewarding, if there's more things to figure out over a longer period of time you'll feel progress until you know it all, even when your mechanical skill isn't increasing.
honestly, Blizzard views their fanbase as dumb as rocks; they think that more than 9 deck slots in Hearthstone would be 'too confusing' for players.
I think Blizzard has done a superb job on the LotV Carrier. Mine drags are back, and until players figure out the "real counter" Carriers reign supreme.
Here's a link to one of my favorite Carrier games where I use Deploy to zone Tempests.
Its nice to see this put so plainly and simply. I wasn't aware that Blizzard didn't fix the Carrier fully, I thought the only thing they didn't do was the trailing interceptors (because you have the upgrade to make Carriers launch them faster) and Interceptors healing inside carriers...
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6xCBusY.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fHXBOy1.png)
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