With the recent events which have happened in the game industry, I felt the need to express my beliefs about how gender had influenced the creation and treatment of video games, my own experiences in the midst of the "gamer" community and where I stand on these issues.
I believe that the perceived gender of those who play video games has greatly influenced the theme, genre and tone of games, as well as their marketing, visuals and the culture which has been associated with them. I will not go too far into this topic, as I could write a master's thesis worth about it. Instead, I wanted to touch on just one of these points as an example; often in video games, women are portrayed in a light that would generally appeal to those who are sexually interested in women. As a female who started out playing games with first person shooters, the first women I recall seeing in video games were the cocooned women or the strippers in Duke Nukem 3D. While I realize that my exposure to such games may have not been age appropriate, it does not change the fact that one of my very first experiences with women in a video game required my father to explain to my inquisitive eight year old self why "you give the dancing ladies money." I do not believe the "babes" would have been included in the same way while attempting to appeal to a gender neutral audience. This is not necessarily bad, in my opinion, this simply means that this game was meant to appeal to those who view women as sexually appealing. Therefore, the target audience is most likely males.
I do believe that many games are intended to be played by both genders equally, but there has previously been a lack of compelling games developed with women as the intended audience, at least in the US. This led to the development of two sets of games, one which appeals mainly to just men and one which appeals to both genders. While some modern games try to be part of that elusive third category of women targeted games, the lack of such games earlier in the rise of the popularity of gaming has led most of these efforts to be focused on more accessible game platforms, such as Facebook and mobile. These platforms are not always regarded well by those who have been invested longer as consumers of the game industry. In fact, the term "casual" is often used in reference to these games, platforms and even those who are deemed "unfit" to consider themselves "true gamers."
To those outside this strange community, it may seem confusing why the term "casual" would be considered derogatory in regards to what most would consider a casual activity. Gaming is, however, very often considered an enthusiast's activity within the community; PC builds are discussed as fervently as much as some talk about car modifications, varying opinions of game play and opposing faction alliances are debated just as passionately as politics and religion, and the knowledge, experience and time dedicated to be able to wear that "gamer" badge is held as a bragging right. Thus, the influx of games and game players who do not uphold these same values, but are being grouped in the same category as these "hardcore gamers", has caused some of these "gamers" to lash out and protect what they see as their community and their honor. The unfortunate side effects of this are criticism of games which do not fit in their mold, attacks on people who challenge these definitions of "gamers", and protecting the exclusivity of their group with harsh words, threats and challenges to those who try to join.
I have, unfortunately, experienced harassment due to my gender in gaming. I am not sure where this harassment spawns from, but I believe it is likely due to those in the "gamer" group who wish it to remain exclusive. Of course, harassment in online games is fairly common for both genders, but I feel that it is not often understood how extensive such harassment can be. Countless insults have been slung at me due to my gender, I have been accused of using my gender to advance myself in games (sorry, EPGP doesn't work that way), and I've battle doubt after doubt and question after question about whether I am a "real gamer" or just a "gamer girl", as if my gender somehow makes a casual interest in games even more vile.
Without provocation, I have received remarkably explicit messages about sexual acts, often violent ones, which have been disturbing at best. One letter I received in World of Warcraft read "I would totally pull your hair and leave scratches down your back, playing with your clit while im fucking you from behind....oh baby lol." Additionally, due to my expression of my passion for various games through cosplay, my image has been on the receiving end of comments such as "fucking her would be like fucking a bag of antlers" and "that bitch is fucking disgusting."
My worst experiences, however, revolve around a group of guys who played an MMO on the same server as me. When I was chatting freely in one of the channels, I was told to "go back to the kitchen" by one of them. I retorted and an argument broke out between us, with insults being slung both ways, though all of the ones I received were base on my gender, appearance and worth as a female. While such a confrontation seemed relatively minor, it persisted and grew from them harassing me within the game and on the forums to threats of violence. I received phone calls from that left voicemails threatening me with violence and sexual assault. I was stalked online, my old social media accounts targets of their attacks, digging up every bit they could use to harass me or to find out more about where I was living. Then, one day, upon learning a location I would be at for certain, they threatened and assured me that they would show up and harm me.
This experience has not been a brief feud over some snarky quips back and forth in a video game. It has persisted, rising up now and then for the last seven years. I've been harassed for seven years by these people because I stood up against them when they told me to return to the kitchen like a good woman. I have long since stopped playing the game, but I will get the occasional harassing comment on one of my YouTube videos or message on Reddit. And that is what I have experienced for upsetting one small group of people in my years of gaming. Other harassment has been prevalent, but none has been as consistent or as threatening.
I developed methods of handling the abuse, of downplaying it. When people would ask me directly about my gender, I would joke about how "girls don't exist on the internet", a common saying, which provided protection at the cost of continuing to downplay the role of women online. Sometimes I would simply deflect it, by talking about my character directly and playing dumb as to their real questions. And it helped, but at what cost? None of my male friends had to carefully consider how to word their sentences or address questions to avoid harassment. I felt guilty as well, because I felt that, by playing the word games to avoid the harassment, I was helping it persist.
Yet, now, I am a game developer. After helping other game companies, I have steered myself on to the exhilarating path of creating my own game at my own company. It is exciting, but there is a fear that burns in the back of my mind that should not be there. I wonder if the next one I upset so badly will come to my door. I wonder if speaking my mind against the treatment of women by the industry and the community will make me a target for one of those who has sent horrific threats to other women. I wonder if the next one will follow through with their threats, if they will show up at my door or my office or at an event I will attend.
As if fighting the self-doubt and the imposter syndrome that is so prevalent in our industry is not challenging enough with doubts deeply ingrained about my abilities and worth created by the treatment of women in these fields, I also have to fight fear, fear that I may be the next target. No one should have to experience that, regardless of their gender or their profession or what articles they write or hobbies they have or beliefs they hold.
So that is what I stand for, that is why I am writing this. This harassment of gamers, developers and journalists is wrong. I want everyone in my industry to be treated well, because video games are mine just as much as they are anyone else's. If that makes me a "SJW" that has to bear harassment so that others will be able to experience games in a friendlier, healthier community, so be it, but, just so you know, I'm really a social justice druid.
haters gonna hate. You can be targettted for your ethnicity just as easily as you can for your gender, it's just easier to recognize that you are female then what kind of asian country you are from to craft more accurate verbal slurs.
We live in a world where there are winners and losers. Realistically speaking there are always going to be poor people in this world, there will always be disease, and certainly there will be abused children, hungry people, and mistreated people in their respective industries. Some people have no choice in the matter. Sometimes you are born with a chronic disease and you are going to die by the age of 20. Sometimes you have limitations or obstacles to overcome, everyone who has ever made something of themselves has gone through this. The worst thing that can happen to you short of someone actually physically abusing because of your gender in the industry is to give into the negative things people on the internet say about you, because when you do you are acknowledging that they are right, and you become a loser.
I have recently been following this rift between genders in gaming, so I wanted to provide my thoughts on this issue.
I won't get into the whole "journalistic integrity", because I feel that is a different demon that needs to be slain another day.
In the past, gender roles in other settings was clearly defined. Women and men were not seen as equals; men were superior to women in all ways. Males were bigger, stronger, smarter, and in general better at all things. Females were considered a counter-part to men; rarely would a female not be associated with a male. Even the famous quote, "behind every great man is a great women" implies that a women can't be great without a male counterpart.
Slowly, women started pushing to receive more visibility, autonomy, freedom, and rights. From suffrage to careers, women across many nations were standing up and demanding more. It was a slow movement, but one that gave women more choices than ever before.
However, even though they fought hard to get what they want, there was still an imbalance between genders. Women were given every opportunities men received, yet were still perceived as the weaker gender. As I ponder this thought, I realize that perception needs another entity on the other side perceiving things. This entity I refer to are males.
Men have always perceived women to be inferior. When women gained suffrage, it was men that granted them that right. When women wanted better jobs, it was men that offered them the jobs. Of course that perception is not as strong in today's society, and women truly are equals to men in every way, but there are still a small group of men that retain the old ways of thinking.
So some of you reading this may ask "Jett, we already know this. What's your point?"
Well my point is that women are in a constant battle to fight for equality in nearly every setting. Even though they have fought hard in the past to achieve greatness, with no strings attached, they still have to fight hard today. Its a disgusting, ugly, and downright dirty fight. And this battle permeates through everything.
Now that video games have been elevated to mainstream culture, we again see the battle of the sexes arise. Of course, prior to video games of today, the target audience for a large majority of games were males. I say 'of course' because well, men were the first to develop video games. It only stands to reason they would develop games tailored to their interests.
So we have women becoming more prevalent in the gaming industry, and another tug-o-war between the sexes, but this time its different.
First, the men that want to keep women out of gaming are fighting back, and fiercely. They are trying to keep the last vestige of male dominance. They are doing everything in their power to keep video games in the realm of the "old boy's club". They are fighting dirty, and are not afraid to fight dirtier.
Second, women no longer require men to help them fight their battles; we see them standing up on their own. Women have developed the structure and tools necessary to level the playing field. And they are fighting dirty also.
This rift between males and females in video games is an old story, but one that is re-told with a new spin.
Before I end this reply, I would like to bring up a very important aspect to game development. Can we please stop having games associated to a gender. I am tired of seeing games like Cooking Dash associated with a girl, or Grand Theft Auto associated with boys. I hope Rockstar makes a GTA with the main character a girl, and not a hot girl wearing nearly nothing. or Cooking Dash 6 (I chose a random number because I have no idea how many Cooking Dash games have been made) with a male character. Games needs to squash the gender roles that have been ingrained deeply in our culture. Fuck, society needs to squash gender roles that have been ingrained deeply in our culture.
Riku, thank you for sharing your experiences in video games. I truly hope that this nonsense can one day be relegated to forgotten memories, but I don't think society easily forgets buried grudges.
sidenote: I have specifically left out buzzwords such as "misogyny" or "feminism". The issue isn't about males hating females or vice versa. The issue is about how gender roles are still ingrained deeply into societies psyche. We need to realize that gender no longer plays a role in our lives. I hope for the day when men and women can choose any role in life, without being stigmatized.
First, the men that want to keep women out of gaming are fighting back, and fiercely. They are trying to keep the last vestige of male dominance. They are doing everything in their power to keep video games in the realm of the "old boy's club". They are fighting dirty, and are not afraid to fight dirtier.
I think you're getting a wrong idea about the male motivation here,
sure there's some of the "old boy's club" and misogynist's out there, but a large group is just average men that get upset when some SJW jumps in, condemns the game they play is moraly wrong and demand's change when they're more often than not not even involved in said game, and whenever said men complain they're suddenly misogynist's.
that's one good way to get people upset, and partly a contributor why this thing blew up so big.
On October 16 2014 11:57 lichter wrote: the internet scares me
You scare me
is it because i'm a goat in a wizard hat smoking a pipe
And also you can press the BAN USER button freely.
On topic, one's sex doesn't matter for me. Male or female as an opponent, I play for fun, I would even admire a girl that is playing at a high level in this male dominated scene. Like, Scarlet, she is like a breath of fresh air. However if my daughter ever plays games and is threatened by some nerds from Bulgaria, I will be on my way to see that they actually meet my daughter face to face and then say what they would do to her, sexually or whatever. And then off would go some nerdy teeth. Someone threatening my sweet child, be it online or not, that would piss me off to no limit.
On October 16 2014 17:32 FFGenerations wrote: u cud try to remember that like 80% of people on the internet are like 14 year old children to begin with .............
As a former 14 year old child on the internet I am deeply offended
I can't believe you pulled through all that stuff and are still a games developer and are setting up your own company! Good luck in all your future endeavors!
When studying any sort of system like the games industry it is essential to look at it in terms of who holds power in relationships. In the gaming journalist paradigm the people who hold the power are mostly the publishers and their PR teams. They undoubtedly have the largest say in what appears on the frontpage of IGN/Gamespot etc, for better or worse (I don't mean that in the "pay for coverage/scores" sense more of the "they decide which questions get answered/who gets access" sense) The same publishers have a large say in what goes into games as well. It certainly isn't small indie devs/journalists with paetrons who are the holders of power and yet seem to have raised an incredulous amount of ire among certain sectors of the gaming community.
I wanted to dismiss your post at first because females usually don't realize just how obscene, vicious and sadistically creative the everyday abuse that goes on between males in the online environment has been since, like, forever (only in our case it's not called harassment but instead flaming, though there isn't really much difference between being called a slut or a cancerous faggot whose parents deserve to burn in a car crash after having contracted a variety of novel ebola strains), but your story is really frightening.
It's safe to say kids who get extremely vicious on the internet are those who get physically bullied at home or in school and are in general helpless and miserable so it's usually not a big deal or even worthy of pity, but these guys deserve a solid beating at best : /
It's horrifying what the internet can do. I've always thought that the hate was over dramatized, but being stalked for seven years and receiving threats like that... just makes me wonder if these people have any clue of the damage they're causing to other people, and if they cared at all if they did.
Well written, and very brave of you to come out like this especially given the abuse you've already had.
On October 16 2014 15:59 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Well my point is that women are in a constant battle to fight for equality in nearly every setting.
That may be your worldview but I would say citation needed on this and the rest of how you summarized the world according to sex.
On October 16 2014 15:59 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Before I end this reply, I would like to bring up a very important aspect to game development. Can we please stop having games associated to a gender. I am tired of seeing games like Cooking Dash associated with a girl, or Grand Theft Auto associated with boys. I hope Rockstar makes a GTA with the main character a girl, and not a hot girl wearing nearly nothing. or Cooking Dash 6 (I chose a random number because I have no idea how many Cooking Dash games have been made) with a male character. Games needs to squash the gender roles that have been ingrained deeply in our culture. Fuck, society needs to squash gender roles that have been ingrained deeply in our culture.
You know the characters in video games are not real? Like I'm not upset about Zerg rights that there have been no good Zerg characters since Brood War because it has no relationship to the real world. If one demographic or another enjoys a video game what do you care? what's the problem?
On October 16 2014 15:59 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:sidenote: I have specifically left out buzzwords such as "misogyny" or "feminism". The issue isn't about males hating females or vice versa. The issue is about how gender roles are still ingrained deeply into societies psyche. We need to realize that gender no longer plays a role in our lives. I hope for the day when men and women can choose any role in life, without being stigmatized.
You would be satisfied with equality of opportunity?
On October 16 2014 15:59 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: This rift between males and females in video games is an old story, but one that is re-told with a new spin.
according to Rob Pardo its not a simple straightforward analogy. according to Pardo Blizz doesn't get the quantity and quality of candidiates stepping forward to work for them.
based upong my experience in software engineering and software project management. i agree to Mr. Pardo.
were there females in my electrical engineering and software engineering courses? sure there were.
all the loner code warriors were male... a thoroughly voluntary position any one can choose to take. and when the gaming industry began you needed guys like Bob Fitch willing to do just that to get products out the door.
every software project i've worked on that was in trouble and required someone to pull an SC1 Bob Fitch rescue mission. it was a guy that locked himself in a room and only came out for food and water for 6 weeks that saved the project. i've never seen a female step forward to do it despite working with many dozens of female employees. its always a guy. and it is a voluntary position... no one wants to do it...
at the cutting edge of every new segment of the software engineering profession is the loner code warrior. the new entrepreunerial company does not exist without this animal in the employee ecosystem.
this is a reason men dominate the software engineeering aspect of the gaming industry. all important decisions about game design revolve around the core engine driving the game.
its not a simple matter of "men think women are incompetent" and trying to superimpose this template in the area of software engineering is an off base overgeneralized white-wash.
Something that bothers me greatly about this debate is when you look at the demographic of Gamers, they still are massively male, so to not expect a lot more male demographic games over neutral or women is silly, the same way romance novels are massively dominated by women, so the massive majority of romance novels are targeted at women, saying "we need more women in games" at this point feel like a complaint by a salty minority, contrary to what the salty minority wants people believe no one is stopping women from getting out there and making what ever games they like, if you wanna target women only, go for it, but don't expect CoD, WoW or Halo sales, it just wont happen when the audience isn't there, but if what they say is true and the audience can be built, by all means do it, what you shouldn't be doing is telling companies who are making a new game targeting men, to be inclusive and also target women, that is not what they want to do currently with their time and money, nor should they have to, the same way the novelists targeting women with their romance or erotic novels dont have to be inclusive of men, I honestly dont ever see the gaming scene not being dominated by men, again the same way i dont ever see the romance novel market ever really appealing to a large number or men.
As was said in this thread and pointed out by Rob Pardo, companies do not turn down women for jobs in gaming because they are women, in fact many companies have gone out of their way to hire women over men these last couple of years to be "inclusive" but at the end of the day a company is going to want to hire the best people for the job and when you get 100 resumes and 12 are women, 88 are men, that 88 has a higher chance of having that best person for the job, that's just maths.
I truly wish the debate would just go away, but there's a very vocal minority who wont let it and they aren't just targeting games, they're targeting anything they consider to be male dominated, but they could care less to understand why, and that is exactly the reason this vocal minority doesn't understand why people cringe at the mention of what they call themselves... Feminists...
And for those in this thread who like to claim gender shouldn't be a thing this day and age, please take a legit gender biology course, Men and women are very very different and that will never change, we think differently, we interact differently, we love and hate differently, we have brains that communicate and process information in different ways which makes us who we are... and fuck..i like it that way, I would be much less attracted to my girlfriend if she did not have Female thoughts and interests as i am attracted to females... not genderless humans.
On October 16 2014 15:59 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: I have recently been following this rift between genders in gaming, so I wanted to provide my thoughts on this issue.
I won't get into the whole "journalistic integrity", because I feel that is a different demon that needs to be slain another day.
In the past, gender roles in other settings was clearly defined. Women and men were not seen as equals; men were superior to women in all ways. Males were bigger, stronger, smarter, and in general better at all things. Females were considered a counter-part to men; rarely would a female not be associated with a male. Even the famous quote, "behind every great man is a great women" implies that a women can't be great without a male counterpart.
Slowly, women started pushing to receive more visibility, autonomy, freedom, and rights. From suffrage to careers, women across many nations were standing up and demanding more. It was a slow movement, but one that gave women more choices than ever before.
However, even though they fought hard to get what they want, there was still an imbalance between genders. Women were given every opportunities men received, yet were still perceived as the weaker gender. As I ponder this thought, I realize that perception needs another entity on the other side perceiving things. This entity I refer to are males.
Men have always perceived women to be inferior. When women gained suffrage, it was men that granted them that right. When women wanted better jobs, it was men that offered them the jobs. Of course that perception is not as strong in today's society, and women truly are equals to men in every way, but there are still a small group of men that retain the old ways of thinking.
So some of you reading this may ask "Jett, we already know this. What's your point?"
Well my point is that women are in a constant battle to fight for equality in nearly every setting. Even though they have fought hard in the past to achieve greatness, with no strings attached, they still have to fight hard today. Its a disgusting, ugly, and downright dirty fight. And this battle permeates through everything.
Now that video games have been elevated to mainstream culture, we again see the battle of the sexes arise. Of course, prior to video games of today, the target audience for a large majority of games were males. I say 'of course' because well, men were the first to develop video games. It only stands to reason they would develop games tailored to their interests.
So we have women becoming more prevalent in the gaming industry, and another tug-o-war between the sexes, but this time its different.
First, the men that want to keep women out of gaming are fighting back, and fiercely. They are trying to keep the last vestige of male dominance. They are doing everything in their power to keep video games in the realm of the "old boy's club". They are fighting dirty, and are not afraid to fight dirtier.
Second, women no longer require men to help them fight their battles; we see them standing up on their own. Women have developed the structure and tools necessary to level the playing field. And they are fighting dirty also.
This rift between males and females in video games is an old story, but one that is re-told with a new spin.
Before I end this reply, I would like to bring up a very important aspect to game development. Can we please stop having games associated to a gender. I am tired of seeing games like Cooking Dash associated with a girl, or Grand Theft Auto associated with boys. I hope Rockstar makes a GTA with the main character a girl, and not a hot girl wearing nearly nothing. or Cooking Dash 6 (I chose a random number because I have no idea how many Cooking Dash games have been made) with a male character. Games needs to squash the gender roles that have been ingrained deeply in our culture. Fuck, society needs to squash gender roles that have been ingrained deeply in our culture.
Riku, thank you for sharing your experiences in video games. I truly hope that this nonsense can one day be relegated to forgotten memories, but I don't think society easily forgets buried grudges.
sidenote: I have specifically left out buzzwords such as "misogyny" or "feminism". The issue isn't about males hating females or vice versa. The issue is about how gender roles are still ingrained deeply into societies psyche. We need to realize that gender no longer plays a role in our lives. I hope for the day when men and women can choose any role in life, without being stigmatized.
This is the effect that political correctness has on our society, eventually people start believing it as truth. Men and women do not have the same preferences or the same aptitudes. There's plenty of indisputable evidence that you're wrong on "women are truly equals to men in every way", the fact that you would even consider this a rational thing to say just underlines how much political correctness has permeated our culture.
By the way, the video game industry isn't trying to "keep women out of gaming", so you can drop the victim complex. Companies just don't want to deal with people like you who want to turn everything into a war of the sexes, when none exists in reality.
I think the whole debate is stupid and the core concerns are extremely complicated.
And I am finishing an MA in Sociology and I greatly enjoy gender studies.
Its interesting really. Its almost like the false assumption that Gaming is a "male" space is leading to people being stupid on the internet. For some of these people its really just their male masculine space being invaded. Since they don't fulfill the "traditional" masculinity perhaps they feel bad about their male space being invaded and they kinda lash out.
You see similar things associated with calling very "male" guys homosexual for example.
But this is a far too theoretical discussion to have here.
I wish you the best of luck Riku in navigating your profession as a female. Like women in Tech before you (not good atm but better than 30 years ago), women in gaming are going through a difficult time and its only made worse by the internet. Instead of closed doors, you have open anonymous spaces where these things are said.
And I am finishing an MA in Sociology and I greatly enjoy gender studies.
Its interesting really. Its almost like the false assumption that Gaming is a "male" space is leading to people being stupid on the internet. For some of these people its really just their male masculine space being invaded.
Wouldn't that be an intrinsical motivation and as thus not object of sociology?
First, the men that want to keep women out of gaming are fighting back, and fiercely. They are trying to keep the last vestige of male dominance. They are doing everything in their power to keep video games in the realm of the "old boy's club". They are fighting dirty, and are not afraid to fight dirtier.
I think you're getting a wrong idea about the male motivation here,
sure there's some of the "old boy's club" and misogynist's out there, but a large group is just average men that get upset when some SJW jumps in, condemns the game they play is moraly wrong and demand's change when they're more often than not not even involved in said game, and whenever said men complain they're suddenly misogynist's.
that's one good way to get people upset, and partly a contributor why this thing blew up so big.
I understand that, I never stated all men are motivated by misogyny. I stated "the men that want to keep women out of gaming". Not all men.
And I am finishing an MA in Sociology and I greatly enjoy gender studies.
Its interesting really. Its almost like the false assumption that Gaming is a "male" space is leading to people being stupid on the internet. For some of these people its really just their male masculine space being invaded.
Wouldn't that be an intrinsical motivation and as thus not object of sociology?
On October 17 2014 01:01 Silvana wrote: Excellent read, not like the weekly feminist crap article you can find on gaming sites. 5/5
Stay strong Riku!
I don't understand modern feminism either, but you don't have to say it in this blog thread, especially when this is a touchy issue for feminists as well. Whether or not the activists are going to do is irrelevant, putting down feminism in a blog like this is in poor taste.
Yeah my comment was really poor D: I didn't state what I think is crap or simply wrong (imo) in those articles; I should clarify but I'm lazy and not so skilled to put my thoughts into words (not even in Spanish!). So I hope I didn't offend anyone, and if I did... well you are right so I apologize ^.^ Lesson learned Silvana, don't jump into a discussion if you cannot contribute to it.
On October 16 2014 15:59 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Now that video games have been elevated to mainstream culture, we again see the battle of the sexes arise. Of course, prior to video games of today, the target audience for a large majority of games were males. I say 'of course' because well, men were the first to develop video games. It only stands to reason they would develop games tailored to their interests.
While I appreciate your reply, this section really bothered me. Females have been active in the video game industry for a LONG, LONG time. Just take a look at this game designer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Shaw_(video_game_designer) . She was designing games since before a majority of people on this site were born. It's not like women magically popped into gaming in the last decade. Of course, the history of women in computer science has been much, much longer. Grace Hopper is probably one of the most influential computer scientists in history, she invented the first compiler!
If you look back at the history of gaming advertisements, you'll find that generally include both genders, suggesting that the game industry initially believed the market to consist of both. Video games weren't initially just made by boys for boys. They were made by men AND women for both genders.
On October 16 2014 17:11 Meavis wrote:
...a large group is just average men that get upset when some SJW jumps in, condemns the game they play is moraly wrong and demand's change when they're more often than not not even involved in said game, and whenever said men complain they're suddenly misogynist's.
Perhaps I am not reading the right channels, but I rarely see this happen. In fact, the only times I can specifically recall something happening along these lines are women complaining that there are a billion race, etc, choices in one of their favorite games, but no gender choice, especially when gendered interaction aren't a main part of the storyline or gameplay. And, yeah, hey, sometimes it is too troublesome. I didn't complain when I couldn't play Fable 1 as a female, because I understood it would be a massive undertaking, but there have been a ton of games where having a female (or minority or whatever) choice isn't hard to add in.
Now, I'm not condemning those games and, in fact, I believe you'll find few people who outright condemn them for not having more diverse options, but I think that it is a worthwhile thing to bring up. Not all games will have female characters, not all games will have male characters, not all games will have walrus characters. It happens. However, it is important to discuss it when the huge lack of these options across the medium as a whole is leaving a vast number of gamers feeling like it is hard to find characters to relate to.
Maybe they aren't really enough of the consumer base (though many studies say otherwise), but talking about it isn't going to hurt anyone and, hopefully, will bring enlightenment on both sides of the issue.
On October 16 2014 19:47 Klonere wrote: When studying any sort of system like the games industry it is essential to look at it in terms of who holds power in relationships. In the gaming journalist paradigm the people who hold the power are mostly the publishers and their PR teams. They undoubtedly have the largest say in what appears on the frontpage of IGN/Gamespot etc, for better or worse (I don't mean that in the "pay for coverage/scores" sense more of the "they decide which questions get answered/who gets access" sense) The same publishers have a large say in what goes into games as well. It certainly isn't small indie devs/journalists with paetrons who are the holders of power and yet seem to have raised an incredulous amount of ire among certain sectors of the gaming community.
Yep, that's my belief. I didn't want to go into this subject in this blog, because it really is a whole different topic, but a certain movement has connected the two in a way that I find exasperating.
On October 16 2014 20:49 Kickboxer wrote: I wanted to dismiss your post at first because females usually don't realize just how obscene, vicious and sadistically creative the everyday abuse that goes on between males in the online environment has been since, like, forever (only in our case it's not called harassment but instead flaming, though there isn't really much difference between being called a slut or a cancerous faggot whose parents deserve to burn in a car crash after having contracted a variety of novel ebola strains)...
While I appreciate you sympathizing with me, why exactly would you dismiss my post due to my gender? My first game was Wolfenstein at the age of 5 or 6, I was trolling in internet chatrooms back at the turn of the century, and I've been playing online MMOs since I found Tibia could play on my parents' 56k.
Now, if Riku isn't a male or gender neutral screen name, I don't know what is. I HAVE been flamed up and down the internet and, yeah, I understand that's what it is like and used to participate in it myself.
So... why in the world would me being female make me somehow blind or immune to "the everyday abuse that goes on between males in the online environment has been since, like, forever"?
On October 16 2014 21:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote: every software project i've worked on that was in trouble and required someone to pull an SC1 Bob Fitch rescue mission. it was a guy that locked himself in a room and only came out for food and water for 6 weeks that saved the project. i've never seen a female step forward to do it despite working with many dozens of female employees. its always a guy. and it is a voluntary position... no one wants to do it...
at the cutting edge of every new segment of the software engineering profession is the loner code warrior. the new entrepreunerial company does not exist without this animal in the employee ecosystem.
this is a reason men dominate the software engineeering aspect of the gaming industry. all important decisions about game design revolve around the core engine driving the game.
its not a simple matter of "men think women are incompetent" and trying to superimpose this template in the area of software engineering is an off base overgeneralized white-wash.
Wait... what? I mean, I am so freaking lost about what point you are trying to make. Are you claiming that females never work crazy hours and late nights, so that is why they don't "dominate the software engineering aspect of the game industry"?
That is just so massively absurd that I have no clue if you are just trolling or what. Perhaps that is your personal experience, but I've seen my peers, both male and female, be that person to put in those hours and work themselves to the brink of insanity. I really have no clue what you are trying to say, because I can tell you that it is much easier to note that women face way more bullshit in the technology industry from their peers and superiors than males do and it is a large part of why they leave the field.
That is a whole other can of worms, though.
On October 16 2014 22:14 ZodaSoda wrote: Something that bothers me greatly about this debate is when you look at the demographic of Gamers, they still are massively male
That is just not true. Please don't say things that aren't true like they are true, it is aggravating.
On October 16 2014 22:45 iamho wrote: By the way, the video game industry isn't trying to "keep women out of gaming", so you can drop the victim complex. Companies just don't want to deal with people like you who want to turn everything into a war of the sexes, when none exists in reality.
Umm... "you" who? Because you clearly aren't talking about me, as at no point did I ever claim that the video game industry is trying to keep anyone out of gaming. Why would they? More people, more sales, more profit. It is silly to think otherwise.
The only thing I have been a "victim" of is direct harassment and death threats.
Thanks for keep a good discussion going, you all. I really appreciate such thoughtful comments on this, even if I may not agree with all of them! (Truthfully, it's why I haven't ever transitioned to a different site to write my personal musings, the community here is just so good for intelligent discussion and debate)
On October 17 2014 05:02 Riku wrote: While I appreciate your reply, this section really bothered me. Females have been active in the video game industry for a LONG, LONG time. Just take a look at this game designer
who hired Carol Shaw back in 1980? while Ms. Shaw deserves some credit for River Raid, the algorithm behind the map generation process that makes River Raid a great game is not hers. she still deserves credit for finding a really unusual application for it.
having a parent who is a software engineer provides a big advantage to a child who wishes to become a software engineer.
i had no such advantage. in fact, every guy on the floor of my residence came from a house with 2 parents. i was the only kid from a divorce who lived in an apartment. rather than worry about any of that i just buried myself in math and physics... which was hella fun...and here i am a professional engineer ... against all odds.
i went to a co-op school. the last thing i would ever do is mention any of these "environmental factors' while in interviews for co-op jobs. i just shut up. its a great strategy.
everyone has their own advantages and disadvantages as they plot their path through their career. the #1 determining factor is how hard you try to succeed at the given task at hand.
the sons of fathers who were software engineers often become software engineers themselves. and, yet the daughters of moms who were software engineers go on to become ...
in order to get hired as a software engineer in a cutting edge company like Activision you need a pretty high powered education.
the # of children a woman has is inversely proportional with the amount of education she has.
how many children did Carol Shaw have? i'm betting none.
i recommend shutting up and pressing forward. its a great strategy.
On October 17 2014 05:02 Riku wrote: While I appreciate your reply, this section really bothered me. Females have been active in the video game industry for a LONG, LONG time. Just take a look at this game designer
who hired Carol Shaw back in 1980? while Ms. Shaw deserves some credit for River Raid, the algorithm behind the map generation process that makes River Raid a great game is not hers. she still deserves credit for finding a really unusual application for it.
having a parent who is a software engineer provides a big advantage to a child who wishes to become a software engineer.
i had no such advantage. in fact, every guy on the floor of my residence came from a house with 2 parents. i was the only kid from a divorce who lived in an apartment. rather than worry about any of that i just buried myself in math and physics... which was hella fun...and here i am a professional engineer ... against all odds.
i went to a co-op school. the last thing i would ever do is mention any of these "environmental factors' while in interviews for co-op jobs. i just shut up. its a great strategy.
everyone has their own advantages and disadvantages as they plot their path through their career. the #1 determining factor is how hard you try to succeed at the given task at hand.
the sons of fathers who were software engineers often become software engineers themselves. and, yet the daughters of moms who were software engineers go on to become ...
in order to get hired as a software engineer in a cutting edge company like Activision you need a pretty high powered education.
the # of children a woman has is inversely proportional with the amount of education she has.
how many children did Carol Shaw have? i'm betting none.
i recommend shutting up and pressing forward. its a great strategy.
"BE: When you decided to go into engineering, being a woman, did your parents think that was odd in any way?
CS: No, I think they encouraged me. When I was in junior high and high school, I was good at math. I entered a bunch of math contests and won awards. Of course, people would say, "Gee, you're good at math — for a girl." That was kind of annoying. Why shouldn't girls be good at math?"
BE: Did they mention anything about you being a woman as being something different or unusual at the time?
Raymond E Kassar - President and CEO of Atari 1980-1983
CS: Not when I interviewed. It was later. One time when I was working in the lab, Ray Kassar, President of Atari, was touring the labs and he said, "Oh, at last! We have a female game designer. She can do cosmetics color matching and interior decorating cartridges!" Which are two subjects I had absolutely no interest in, so…
BE: Did that bother you, what he said?
CS: Later, the other guys said, "Don't pay any attention to him. Do whatever you want to do." It wasn't like there was discrimination among the other game designers or anything.
BE: Do you think there's something different about you as a woman that made you choose to be a programmer when a lot of women don't?
CS: I guess just not really caring what other people thought about what I did.
BE: What advice would you give to young women or girls who might want to choose a profession in computer science or game design?
CS: If that's something they like doing, they should go ahead and do it. And not let people tell them that they can't do it. The main thing is find something that you like doing and are interested in.
edit: I hope JimmyJ is trying to say that your background doesn't matter for whatever you want to do, you just have to work hard and ignore haters. So as an individual ignore hate, chase dreams.
Except it's poorly worded like a rant. And he has these unnecessary gender stereotypes and "facts" about women.
Raynor suffers from what a lot of the men on this site do..I am sorry to say..and that is MAS. It is such a horrible syndrome, but once you understand the disease, and are able to recognize the symptoms, it can be quite entertaining. Here is a documentary on the subject.
Just remember everyone, denial is a symptom and confirmation that indeed... you too suffer from MAS.
But I think this "Archie Bunker-esk" attitude is out of date! You think women don't lock themselves in rooms and toil away at a problem until its done? You forget that women for decades have held at least 2 full time jobs: Their day jobs and running a household, to include RAYNOR YOUR MOTHER! A single mother is locked in her house with little contact to the outside world programming your brain for the real world.
If you all could step outside of your little boxes and actually see the world thru non prejudice eyes, understand the value of time and sweat equity that goes on unnoticed by BOTH sides, these gender wars would cease to exist.
Oh and most females realize just how obscene men can be to each other, we're no stranger to obscenities with you or among ourselves. All this nonsense needs to stop.
Some of the comments in here are equally sexist as what you describe, just skewed towards the positive end.That's what I dislike about the debate. There's clearly a sexual drive behind the interaction between men and women and it overrides logical behaviour that occurs when the subconscious sexual agenda isn't in motion.
I notice this in my own internet behaviour even though I'm totally aware of it. The fact that someone is a girl DOES matter. I feel I'm more inclined to have an opinion when a female is involved and that it skews more heavily into either a total positive or a total negative reaction. The problem is that people as a whole pretend to be more civilised than they really are, but as is obvious from male/female interaction in gaming communities, men are still evolutionarily programmed to try to stand out and make a lot of fuss when there's girls around (even when that behaviour is useless in an online environment).
I feel the real reason this is such a huge issue is that men have been taught in modern society to minimize this "loud" behaviour, instead investing in looks, knowledge and material possession as ways to impress females. But in reality there's still a loud monkey under the bonnet and it shows when anonimity is involved.
(Women have monkies under the bonnet as well btw, but they're more subtle)
TL:DR
Social evolution can't keep up with the rate of technological advances in communication, we're stuck with outdated subconscious drivers, crashes occur.
I'm fairly certain that this is a societal issue rather than a gaming issue, and is a woman who got disqualified from a cosplay costume for it being too risqué really the right person to (re) start this issue on tl? The way women are portrayed in video games is often sexist, but its no worse than in movies or television or music or any other form of popular entertainment.
On October 17 2014 08:49 Jaaaaasper wrote: I'm fairly certain that this is a societal issue rather than a gaming issue, and is a woman who got disqualified from a cosplay costume for it being too risqué really the right person to (re) start this issue on tl? The way women are portrayed in video games is often sexist, but its no worse than in movies or television or music or any other form of popular entertainment.
Oh, it's definitely a societal issue, but that doesn't mean we can't address it within the medium that we are most familiar with.
Also, I've never been disqualified from any contest in the history of my life, so I'm really not sure what you are talking about.
Regardless, why would my choice of costumes disqualify my opinion on the subject or make me not "the right person"?
On October 17 2014 08:49 Jaaaaasper wrote: I'm fairly certain that this is a societal issue rather than a gaming issue, and is a woman who got disqualified from a cosplay costume for it being too risqué really the right person to (re) start this issue on tl? The way women are portrayed in video games is often sexist, but its no worse than in movies or television or music or any other form of popular entertainment.
Oh, it's definitely a societal issue, but that doesn't mean we can't address it within the medium that we are most familiar with.
Also, I've never been disqualified from any contest in the history of my life, so I'm really not sure what you are talking about.
Regardless, why would my choice of costumes disqualify my opinion on the subject or make me not "the right person"?
Only because of how stupid this thread will probably get. Because I'm pretty sure one of your previous cos play blogs mentioned you getting dc'd because the nidalee cosplay was too risqué
On October 17 2014 08:49 Jaaaaasper wrote: I'm fairly certain that this is a societal issue rather than a gaming issue, and is a woman who got disqualified from a cosplay costume for it being too risqué really the right person to (re) start this issue on tl? The way women are portrayed in video games is often sexist, but its no worse than in movies or television or music or any other form of popular entertainment.
Oh, it's definitely a societal issue, but that doesn't mean we can't address it within the medium that we are most familiar with.
Also, I've never been disqualified from any contest in the history of my life, so I'm really not sure what you are talking about.
Regardless, why would my choice of costumes disqualify my opinion on the subject or make me not "the right person"?
Only because of how stupid this thread will probably get. Because I'm pretty sure one of your previous cos play blogs mentioned you getting dc'd because the nidalee cosplay was too risqué
On October 16 2014 22:14 ZodaSoda wrote: Something that bothers me greatly about this debate is when you look at the demographic of Gamers, they still are massively male
That is just not true. Please don't say things that aren't true like they are true, it is aggravating.
Sorry but that is plain bullshit, the resources used for the links you posted are skewed and place anyone whos ever picked up an iPhone app for 20 minutes as a gamer, and that just isn't so, especially when we are discussing gaming culture with Console and PC games in mind, Men are the dominant audience for the games we are talking about, for you to use facebook games and those skewed statistics is a huge problem as to why people still dont get that companies like Blizzard or EA or Rockstar mainly cater towards Men, as much as you want to believe different, people who play Facebook games or iPhone apps are not gamers hell even if they play a ton of Angry Birds or Candy Crush, they still are not the gamers we are discussing when we are talking about games like Bayonetta or Zelda, they are 2 very disconnected groups, even the game developers are disconnected in these groups, the most Casual game blizzard has made is Hearthstone, and it is still male dominated at its core, it's aggravating when you try to call my mother a gamer based on those links and she will tell you are delusional...
play close attention the first half of what she says...
On October 16 2014 22:14 ZodaSoda wrote: Something that bothers me greatly about this debate is when you look at the demographic of Gamers, they still are massively male
That is just not true. Please don't say things that aren't true like they are true, it is aggravating.
Sorry but that is plain bullshit, the resources used for the links you posted are skewed and place anyone whos ever picked up an iPhone app for 20 minutes as a gamer, and that just isn't so, especially when we are discussing gaming culture with Console and PC games in mind, Men are the dominant audience for the games we are talking about, for you to use facebook games and those skewed statistics is a huge problem as to why people still dont get that companies like Blizzard or EA or Rockstar mainly cater towards Men, as much as you want to believe different, people who play Facebook games or iPhone apps are not gamers hell even if they play a ton of Angry Birds or Candy Crush, they still are not the gamers we are discussing when we are talking about games like Bayonetta or Zelda, they are 2 very disconnected groups, even the game developers are disconnected in these groups, the most Casual game blizzard has made is Hearthstone, and it is still male dominated at its core, it's aggravating when you try to call my mother a gamer based on those links and she will tell you are delusional...
Alright, so you're saying use of the game types that I specifically address in my original post don't qualify as games in your opinion.
That's fine.
Could you please define what qualifies someone as a game player, including what games are "valid" and what what frequency they have to play these games to be considered?
And please reread these two paragraphs from my original post:
On October 16 2014 11:29 Riku wrote: I do believe that many games are intended to be played by both genders equally, but there has previously been a lack of compelling games developed with women as the intended audience, at least in the US. This led to the development of two sets of games, one which appeals mainly to just men and one which appeals to both genders. While some modern games try to be part of that elusive third category of women targeted games, the lack of such games earlier in the rise of the popularity of gaming has led most of these efforts to be focused on more accessible game platforms, such as Facebook and mobile. These platforms are not always regarded well by those who have been invested longer as consumers of the game industry. In fact, the term "casual" is often used in reference to these games, platforms and even those who are deemed "unfit" to consider themselves "true gamers."
To those outside this strange community, it may seem confusing why the term "casual" would be considered derogatory in regards to what most would consider a casual activity. Gaming is, however, very often considered an enthusiast's activity within the community; PC builds are discussed as fervently as much as some talk about car modifications, varying opinions of game play and opposing faction alliances are debated just as passionately as politics and religion, and the knowledge, experience and time dedicated to be able to wear that "gamer" badge is held as a bragging right. Thus, the influx of games and game players who do not uphold these same values, but are being grouped in the same category as these "hardcore gamers", has caused some of these "gamers" to lash out and protect what they see as their community and their honor. The unfortunate side effects of this are criticism of games which do not fit in their mold, attacks on people who challenge these definitions of "gamers", and protecting the exclusivity of their group with harsh words, threats and challenges to those who try to join.
On October 16 2014 22:14 ZodaSoda wrote: Something that bothers me greatly about this debate is when you look at the demographic of Gamers, they still are massively male
That is just not true. Please don't say things that aren't true like they are true, it is aggravating.
Sorry but that is plain bullshit, the resources used for the links you posted are skewed and place anyone whos ever picked up an iPhone app for 20 minutes as a gamer, and that just isn't so, especially when we are discussing gaming culture with Console and PC games in mind, Men are the dominant audience for the games we are talking about, for you to use facebook games and those skewed statistics is a huge problem as to why people still dont get that companies like Blizzard or EA or Rockstar mainly cater towards Men, as much as you want to believe different, people who play Facebook games or iPhone apps are not gamers hell even if they play a ton of Angry Birds or Candy Crush, they still are not the gamers we are discussing when we are talking about games like Bayonetta or Zelda, they are 2 very disconnected groups, even the game developers are disconnected in these groups, the most Casual game blizzard has made is Hearthstone, and it is still male dominated at its core, it's aggravating when you try to call my mother a gamer based on those links and she will tell you are delusional...
Alright, so you're saying use of the game types that I specifically address in my original post don't qualify as games in your opinion.
That's fine.
Could you please define what qualifies someone as a game player, including what games are "valid" and what what frequency they have to play these games to be considered?
And please reread these two paragraphs from my original post:
On October 16 2014 11:29 Riku wrote: I do believe that many games are intended to be played by both genders equally, but there has previously been a lack of compelling games developed with women as the intended audience, at least in the US. This led to the development of two sets of games, one which appeals mainly to just men and one which appeals to both genders. While some modern games try to be part of that elusive third category of women targeted games, the lack of such games earlier in the rise of the popularity of gaming has led most of these efforts to be focused on more accessible game platforms, such as Facebook and mobile. These platforms are not always regarded well by those who have been invested longer as consumers of the game industry. In fact, the term "casual" is often used in reference to these games, platforms and even those who are deemed "unfit" to consider themselves "true gamers."
To those outside this strange community, it may seem confusing why the term "casual" would be considered derogatory in regards to what most would consider a casual activity. Gaming is, however, very often considered an enthusiast's activity within the community; PC builds are discussed as fervently as much as some talk about car modifications, varying opinions of game play and opposing faction alliances are debated just as passionately as politics and religion, and the knowledge, experience and time dedicated to be able to wear that "gamer" badge is held as a bragging right. Thus, the influx of games and game players who do not uphold these same values, but are being grouped in the same category as these "hardcore gamers", has caused some of these "gamers" to lash out and protect what they see as their community and their honor. The unfortunate side effects of this are criticism of games which do not fit in their mold, attacks on people who challenge these definitions of "gamers", and protecting the exclusivity of their group with harsh words, threats and challenges to those who try to join.
It's not a matter of definition, this is where your debate loses validity to people who are traditional gamers, the problem is when you have these people saying the world largest gaming demographic is adult women, and then telling us because the worlds largest gaming demographic is adult women, we have to change the way we make out PC and Console games for these women, who dont own any of these games they want us to change, do you really not see the disconnection here?
On October 16 2014 22:14 ZodaSoda wrote: Something that bothers me greatly about this debate is when you look at the demographic of Gamers, they still are massively male
That is just not true. Please don't say things that aren't true like they are true, it is aggravating.
Sorry but that is plain bullshit, the resources used for the links you posted are skewed and place anyone whos ever picked up an iPhone app for 20 minutes as a gamer, and that just isn't so, especially when we are discussing gaming culture with Console and PC games in mind, Men are the dominant audience for the games we are talking about, for you to use facebook games and those skewed statistics is a huge problem as to why people still dont get that companies like Blizzard or EA or Rockstar mainly cater towards Men, as much as you want to believe different, people who play Facebook games or iPhone apps are not gamers hell even if they play a ton of Angry Birds or Candy Crush, they still are not the gamers we are discussing when we are talking about games like Bayonetta or Zelda, they are 2 very disconnected groups, even the game developers are disconnected in these groups, the most Casual game blizzard has made is Hearthstone, and it is still male dominated at its core, it's aggravating when you try to call my mother a gamer based on those links and she will tell you are delusional...
Alright, so you're saying use of the game types that I specifically address in my original post don't qualify as games in your opinion.
That's fine.
Could you please define what qualifies someone as a game player, including what games are "valid" and what what frequency they have to play these games to be considered?
And please reread these two paragraphs from my original post:
On October 16 2014 11:29 Riku wrote: I do believe that many games are intended to be played by both genders equally, but there has previously been a lack of compelling games developed with women as the intended audience, at least in the US. This led to the development of two sets of games, one which appeals mainly to just men and one which appeals to both genders. While some modern games try to be part of that elusive third category of women targeted games, the lack of such games earlier in the rise of the popularity of gaming has led most of these efforts to be focused on more accessible game platforms, such as Facebook and mobile. These platforms are not always regarded well by those who have been invested longer as consumers of the game industry. In fact, the term "casual" is often used in reference to these games, platforms and even those who are deemed "unfit" to consider themselves "true gamers."
To those outside this strange community, it may seem confusing why the term "casual" would be considered derogatory in regards to what most would consider a casual activity. Gaming is, however, very often considered an enthusiast's activity within the community; PC builds are discussed as fervently as much as some talk about car modifications, varying opinions of game play and opposing faction alliances are debated just as passionately as politics and religion, and the knowledge, experience and time dedicated to be able to wear that "gamer" badge is held as a bragging right. Thus, the influx of games and game players who do not uphold these same values, but are being grouped in the same category as these "hardcore gamers", has caused some of these "gamers" to lash out and protect what they see as their community and their honor. The unfortunate side effects of this are criticism of games which do not fit in their mold, attacks on people who challenge these definitions of "gamers", and protecting the exclusivity of their group with harsh words, threats and challenges to those who try to join.
It's not a matter of definition, this is where your debate loses validity to people who are traditional gamers, the problem is when you have these people saying the world largest gaming demographic is adult women, and then telling us because the worlds largest gaming demographic is adult women, we have to change the way we make out PC and Console games for these women, who dont own any of these games they want us to change, do you really not see the disconnection here?
Pardon? No, I never said anyone had to change the way anyone makes games or that anyone. When did I say that? Could you point out where "my debate" ever says anything along those lines at all?
Needless, it's not to say all women only play mobile games, so your whole they "dont own any of these games" point is absolutely absurd. There is clearly a sizable population of female gamers, from every game from FFXIV to Halo.
Seriously, though, if you want to debate with me, I'd really appreciate you debating things that I have actually said. This whole strawman setup is rather annoying.
On October 16 2014 11:29 Riku wrote: Pardon? No, I never said anyone had to change the way anyone makes games or that anyone. When did I say that? Could you point out where "my debate" ever says anything along those lines at all?
The whole idea of this debate is based around the idea of changing the status quo, women are not discriminated against in the gaming industry, as you have well pointed out yourself there have been women working on games for many years, so its not about that, casual discrimination in online games and communities then? well that happens everywhere even outside of games, so why the discussion on games? unless you think games make people misogynist, i hope not...
On October 16 2014 11:29 Riku wrote: Needless, it's not to say all women only play mobile games, so your whole they "dont own any of these games" point is absolutely absurd. There is clearly a sizable population of female gamers, from every game from FFXIV to Halo.
On October 16 2014 11:29 Riku wrote: Seriously, though, if you want to debate with me, I'd really appreciate you debating things that I have actually said. This whole strawman setup is rather annoying.
Again you miss the point, Sure women play FFXIV to Halo, but are they the main demographic? no, they are not, I watch and enjoy Romantic Comedies with my girlfriend sometimes, but am i their main demographic? nope. That argument is a strawman, you know if you really wanna go there...
my mom really likes Pogo and EA does a nice job of milking every possible dime out of her. unfortunately, her budget for games is about $20/year. but , EA has done a nice job of getting that money out of her.
if u want to make PC games aimed at teh adult female audience then make them. its at this stage where it really helps to be able to do the hermit code warrior thing to get your product finished.
my first game was a baseball stats simulator game where players could call the signals for the pitcher and on offense the 3rd base coach could tell the hitter whether to "take for sure", "hit away" , "hit and run" or "bunt".
the inspiration for my game was the board game "Charlie Brown's AllStars".
i only made about $8,000 off of sales. the fun of making the game was more important than the money i made.
not much to discuss... just starting making games.
On October 17 2014 10:04 ZodaSoda wrote: The whole idea of this debate is based around the idea of changing the status quo, women are not discriminated against in the gaming industry, as you have well pointed out yourself there have been women working on games for many years, so its not about that, casual discrimination in online games and communities then? well that happens everywhere even outside of games, so why the discussion on games? unless you think games make people misogynist, i hope not...
Right, I never said they were discriminated against in the game industry (that's a whole other debate). The only thing I have said is that I've been harassed and threatened more then the norm, most likely, due to my gender.
Games are my life, pretty much literally. My pass times are usually games, my friends are game developers and I work on games for a living. Thus, games and treatment of women in game communities, being a woman myself, is important to me.
Also, I am not really just talking about "casual discrimination", I am talking about death threats and rape threats and people getting emailed photos of their front door. This isn't a "Oh, no, I get picked on more because gamers don't like that I have boobs" (which, in fact, is true online in general: http://pdf.aminer.org/000/161/833/assessing_the_attack_threat_due_to_irc_channels.pdf ), this is a "There is a serious issue right now with absurd levels of harassment and threats in the game community right now."
On October 17 2014 10:04 ZodaSoda wrote: Again you miss the point, Sure women play FFXIV to Halo, but are they the main demographic? no, they are not, I watch and enjoy Romantic Comedies with my girlfriend sometimes, but am i their main demographic? nope. That argument is a strawman, you know if you really wanna go there...
That's not what a strawman argument means.
Also, I never said they were the main demographic.
Seriously, you are trying to debate things I haven't said. I'm not sure how I am supposed to respond, it's not like I can have much of a discussion with you right now. You are kind of being Clint Eastwood talking to the Obama chair.
On October 17 2014 10:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote: my mom really likes Pogo and EA does a nice job of milking every possible dime out of her. unfortunately, her budget for games is about $20/year. but , EA has done a nice job of getting that money out of her.
if u want to make PC games aimed at teh adult female audience then make them. its at this stage where it really helps to be able to do the hermit code warrior thing to get your product finished.
my first game was a baseball stats simulator game where players could call the signals for the pitcher and on offense the 3rd base coach could tell the hitter whether to "take for sure", "hit away" , "hit and run" or "bunt".
the inspiration for my game was the board game "Charlie Brown's AllStars".
i only made about $8,000 off of sales. the fun of making the game was more important than the money i made.
not much to discuss... just starting making games.
as long as you're having fun... who cares
Come on now.. POGO?! Raynor..that is a generational preference not a gender preference..nice try .. POGO ROFLMAO Leave your mom alone..and you need to be paying her POGO bill for her!
On October 16 2014 15:59 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: This rift between males and females in video games is an old story, but one that is re-told with a new spin.
according to Rob Pardo its not a simple straightforward analogy. according to Pardo Blizz doesn't get the quantity and quality of candidiates stepping forward to work for them.
based upong my experience in software engineering and software project management. i agree to Mr. Pardo.
were there females in my electrical engineering and software engineering courses? sure there were.
all the loner code warriors were male... a thoroughly voluntary position any one can choose to take. and when the gaming industry began you needed guys like Bob Fitch willing to do just that to get products out the door.
every software project i've worked on that was in trouble and required someone to pull an SC1 Bob Fitch rescue mission. it was a guy that locked himself in a room and only came out for food and water for 6 weeks that saved the project. i've never seen a female step forward to do it despite working with many dozens of female employees. its always a guy. and it is a voluntary position... no one wants to do it...
at the cutting edge of every new segment of the software engineering profession is the loner code warrior. the new entrepreunerial company does not exist without this animal in the employee ecosystem.
this is a reason men dominate the software engineeering aspect of the gaming industry. all important decisions about game design revolve around the core engine driving the game.
its not a simple matter of "men think women are incompetent" and trying to superimpose this template in the area of software engineering is an off base overgeneralized white-wash.
Doesn't this go back to the fact that women are vastly underrepresented in engineering in general? Culturally there is still a large lag in between how we say the world should be and how it actually is. Girls still are pushed away from STEM fields and you can find plenty of examples of the struggles those who enter these male dominated fields face, even at higher education levels. From my own experience (the forensic sciences) the various stem fields are absolutely dominated by men. Specifically in my own field (Forensic Anthropology) the section is dominated by an older, heavily male demographic that no one really wants to challenge when it comes to change because of the power they have on career advancement. What is encouraging is that the younger generation of Forensic Anthropologists have a very much increased female presence that is actually starting to become the majority (I know under my adviser out of 7 grad students only 1 is male and the ratio was even more skewed at the school I got my MA at). The other STEM fields in the forensic sciences do not even have that and in fact at the annual forensic meetings, those in other sections will basically say to a female "Oh your an anthropologist" because the ratios are so imbalanced except in the Anth section. It is one of the reasons there recently have been efforts to encourage girls to keep interest in the sciences. They just were not encouraged and influenced at a younger age to do so. This "men are the scientists" attitude has actively hampered female interest in the sciences. Its only been relatively recently in the media where you have a fair amount of depictions of women in STEM fields.
I almost wish you'd have made this two separate blogs(I mean you still could). It feels like your first few paragraphs were a setup for your personal story, which is a unique perspective and interesting read on its own, and I'm glad you shared it, especially in the context of your last blog about becoming a developer.
That said, they also make for the basis of a post about that which I believe Zoda is actually posting about, which is one of the reasons I think he responded to 'the debate' as a sort of meta-topic of this thread(and replies to you inside of it), and not your post and points you made in it specifically(thus his lack of directly quoting you at first, and thus why you two are now kind of arguing, even though you seem to agree on quite a bit actually). This is something your perspective as a new, and female, developer is also somewhat unique on, and could probably also be quite interesting.
Either that or maybe I wish you'd have fleshed out the middle part some more, but that would turn this into an essay and not a TL blog post.
The best part about this internet controversy is that it's made it abundantly clear which of the older TL posters are the ones that have absolutely no conception of the reality of what life is like for women on a daily basis. When you look at some of the names that is involved in this so-called gamergate and realize that some of these central voices are also well known racists; when you look at some of these TL posters and see that many of them are fairly well known as straight up misogynists from their posts in recent years, one can only wonder what is actually at stake. What's at stake for these people isn't actually the integrity of gaming journalism or the gaming industry as such, but the ideological fervor of denying structural imbalance. The rhetoric of integrity is just a thin facade used to make their misogyny palatable - Xiphos' recent posts on this topic makes this so transparent and bare, as is Jimmy's posts in this blog; neither are surprising given their posting history on TL.net.
I haven't read the answers, so there might be something that was already mentioned. Just some short points I want to give:
- Duke Nukem 3D "This is not necessarily bad, in my opinion, this simply means that this game was meant to appeal to those who view women as sexually appealing." What about kids who simply like the character and his lines? One element of the game doesn't necessarily mean it was designed to appeal towards this specific group. It's part of being a macho like he is, simple as that. What about games like GTA where there are strip clubs? Those clubs aren't exactly an uncommon thing and fit with being in the underworld. Was it designed exactly the same way?
- "While some modern games try to be part of that elusive third category of women targeted games, the lack of such games earlier in the rise of the popularity of gaming has led most of these efforts to be focused on more accessible game platforms, such as Facebook and mobile." You mean games like Sims? Also, what constitutes a game targeted towards women? Pink unicorns that are happily running around? Cooking games? Seems more like you think that most women like A and most men like B. However, it's not like that. Games that also appealed to women were the likes of Anno, Settlers, Black & White, heck, all those economy games back in the mid to late nineties...unless you want to say economy isn't for women. These days, you have free to play MMOs which appeal to women because you can customize your character and apparently according to you, women would like to style their characters, right? Honestly, I think it's a joke. Women and girls have been around forever. We had some on LAN parties, I met several ones who played Red Alert 2 competitively or Quake 3: Arena and even the girl who sat next to me in English classes played Call of Duty 2. The only problem is society and people like you who say A fits to X and B to Y. Boys play with lego, girls with stuffed animals or barbies. I have experienced a different side and I think what hold girls back were their parents and society that told them that playing games is wrong or not for them.
- "My worst experiences, however, revolve around a group of guys who played an MMO on the same server as me. When I was chatting freely in one of the channels, I was told to "go back to the kitchen" by one of them. I retorted and an argument broke out between us, with insults being slung both ways, though all of the ones I received were base on my gender, appearance and worth as a female. While such a confrontation seemed relatively minor, it persisted and grew from them harassing me within the game and on the forums to threats of violence. I received phone calls from that left voicemails threatening me with violence and sexual assault." What does that first sentence imply? How did they know you were a girl? "Chatting freely", eh? I've played many MMOs and sunk so many hours into them but I have never ever ecountered something like that. And there were always female players around (either confirmed or unconfirmed). They never had any problems, maybe simply because they weren't going around shouting: "I'm a girl, look at me."? Gender isn't an issue im MMOs unless you try to exploit it or have really bad luck and join a terrible guild which would be the player's fault then because you normally don't just join a random one. So, how did you receive phone calls? Normally, other people don't just get yours unless you either give it to them or post it for the world to see. In both cases, it would be idiocy.
Lastly, I don't think someone who posts nude pictures of himself online for everyone to see is fit to talk about such a topic.
On October 17 2014 16:59 koreasilver wrote: The best part about this internet controversy is that it's made it abundantly clear which of the older TL posters are the ones that have absolutely no conception of the reality of what life is like for women on a daily basis. When you look at some of the names that is involved in this so-called gamergate and realize that some of these central voices are also well known racists; when you look at some of these TL posters and see that many of them are fairly well known as straight up misogynists from their posts in recent years, one can only wonder what is actually at stake. What's at stake for these people isn't actually the integrity of gaming journalism or the gaming industry as such, but the ideological fervor of denying structural imbalance.
I understood all your name calling up until the bolded part. The ideological fervor of denying structural imbalance? are you trying to call people dogmatic failed architects?
On October 16 2014 15:59 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: This rift between males and females in video games is an old story, but one that is re-told with a new spin.
according to Rob Pardo its not a simple straightforward analogy. according to Pardo Blizz doesn't get the quantity and quality of candidiates stepping forward to work for them.
based upong my experience in software engineering and software project management. i agree to Mr. Pardo.
were there females in my electrical engineering and software engineering courses? sure there were.
all the loner code warriors were male... a thoroughly voluntary position any one can choose to take. and when the gaming industry began you needed guys like Bob Fitch willing to do just that to get products out the door.
every software project i've worked on that was in trouble and required someone to pull an SC1 Bob Fitch rescue mission. it was a guy that locked himself in a room and only came out for food and water for 6 weeks that saved the project. i've never seen a female step forward to do it despite working with many dozens of female employees. its always a guy. and it is a voluntary position... no one wants to do it...
at the cutting edge of every new segment of the software engineering profession is the loner code warrior. the new entrepreunerial company does not exist without this animal in the employee ecosystem.
this is a reason men dominate the software engineeering aspect of the gaming industry. all important decisions about game design revolve around the core engine driving the game.
its not a simple matter of "men think women are incompetent" and trying to superimpose this template in the area of software engineering is an off base overgeneralized white-wash.
Doesn't this go back to the fact that women are vastly underrepresented in engineering in general? Culturally there is still a large lag in between how we say the world should be and how it actually is. Girls still are pushed away from STEM fields and you can find plenty of examples of the struggles those who enter these male dominated fields face, even at higher education levels. From my own experience (the forensic sciences) the various stem fields are absolutely dominated by men. Specifically in my own field (Forensic Anthropology) the section is dominated by an older, heavily male demographic that no one really wants to challenge when it comes to change because of the power they have on career advancement. What is encouraging is that the younger generation of Forensic Anthropologists have a very much increased female presence that is actually starting to become the majority (I know under my adviser out of 7 grad students only 1 is male and the ratio was even more skewed at the school I got my MA at). The other STEM fields in the forensic sciences do not even have that and in fact at the annual forensic meetings, those in other sections will basically say to a female "Oh your an anthropologist" because the ratios are so imbalanced except in the Anth section. It is one of the reasons there recently have been efforts to encourage girls to keep interest in the sciences. They just were not encouraged and influenced at a younger age to do so. This "men are the scientists" attitude has actively hampered female interest in the sciences. Its only been relatively recently in the media where you have a fair amount of depictions of women in STEM fields.
Zealot Hockey was made by 2 guys in a month; neither of them part of the engineering profession. if you like making games just starting making them. or make an add-on tool like GameHeart... another one MAN project.
no one would hire me to make games... so i just started making games myself. i didn't make a lot of money, but i had a great time.
you want to enter a new field of work? quit yapping and DO something.
It's good to gear that, despite all the shit you've dealt with in the gaming community, that you've stuck around and even decided to make your own game. I hope that it goes well for you!
On October 17 2014 15:22 red_ wrote: I almost wish you'd have made this two separate blogs(I mean you still could). It feels like your first few paragraphs were a setup for your personal story, which is a unique perspective and interesting read on its own, and I'm glad you shared it, especially in the context of your last blog about becoming a developer.
I might do another blog on that subject. It's definitely a bit of a more touchy one.
On October 17 2014 18:00 Lucumo wrote: - Duke Nukem 3D "This is not necessarily bad, in my opinion, this simply means that this game was meant to appeal to those who view women as sexually appealing." What about kids who simply like the character and his lines? One element of the game doesn't necessarily mean it was designed to appeal towards this specific group. It's part of being a macho like he is, simple as that. What about games like GTA where there are strip clubs? Those clubs aren't exactly an uncommon thing and fit with being in the underworld. Was it designed exactly the same way?
...what? I would say that both GTA and Duke Nukem are targeted towards male audiences. It's not bad, it just is. You are free to disagree with me.
On October 17 2014 18:00 Lucumo wrote: - "While some modern games try to be part of that elusive third category of women targeted games, the lack of such games earlier in the rise of the popularity of gaming has led most of these efforts to be focused on more accessible game platforms, such as Facebook and mobile." You mean games like Sims? Also, what constitutes a game targeted towards women? Pink unicorns that are happily running around? Cooking games? Seems more like you think that most women like A and most men like B. However, it's not like that. Games that also appealed to women were the likes of Anno, Settlers, Black & White, heck, all those economy games back in the mid to late nineties...unless you want to say economy isn't for women. These days, you have free to play MMOs which appeal to women because you can customize your character and apparently according to you, women would like to style their characters, right? Honestly, I think it's a joke. Women and girls have been around forever. We had some on LAN parties, I met several ones who played Red Alert 2 competitively or Quake 3: Arena and even the girl who sat next to me in English classes played Call of Duty 2. The only problem is society and people like you who say A fits to X and B to Y. Boys play with lego, girls with stuffed animals or barbies. I have experienced a different side and I think what hold girls back were their parents and society that told them that playing games is wrong or not for them.
A game targeted towards women would have things which appeal to women. Sure, pink unicorns may appeal to women more than men, but so does a lot of other things, particularly having relate-able characters.
And, yeah, I know women have been around games forever, I was making that argument earlier and I've been around them myself (obviously).
On October 17 2014 18:00 Lucumo wrote: - "My worst experiences, however, revolve around a group of guys who played an MMO on the same server as me. When I was chatting freely in one of the channels, I was told to "go back to the kitchen" by one of them. I retorted and an argument broke out between us, with insults being slung both ways, though all of the ones I received were base on my gender, appearance and worth as a female. While such a confrontation seemed relatively minor, it persisted and grew from them harassing me within the game and on the forums to threats of violence. I received phone calls from that left voicemails threatening me with violence and sexual assault." What does that first sentence imply? How did they know you were a girl? "Chatting freely", eh? I've played many MMOs and sunk so many hours into them but I have never ever ecountered something like that. And there were always female players around (either confirmed or unconfirmed). They never had any problems, maybe simply because they weren't going around shouting: "I'm a girl, look at me."? Gender isn't an issue im MMOs unless you try to exploit it or have really bad luck and join a terrible guild which would be the player's fault then because you normally don't just join a random one. So, how did you receive phone calls? Normally, other people don't just get yours unless you either give it to them or post it for the world to see. In both cases, it would be idiocy.
Yeah, chatting freely and I mentioned that my boyfriend, because he was going to help me run a dungeon when he got back from work when someone asked me when I was running it that week. Whoop-de-fucking-do.
And I don't know how they got my number. It wasn't posted anywhere publicly.
On October 17 2014 18:00 Lucumo wrote: Lastly, I don't think someone who posts nude pictures of himself online for everyone to see is fit to talk about such a topic.
Oh, good, because I don't conform to your social standards, I don't deserve to express my opinion on a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SUBJECT? Yeah, cry me a river.
On October 17 2014 21:12 JimmyJRaynor wrote: you want to enter a new field of work? quit yapping and DO something.
That's pretty much what all of these awesome women in the industry have done. Also, never tell people to "quit yapping" or anything else along the lines of "shut up", it's just in poor taste.
On October 18 2014 00:15 Parametric wrote: A riku blog without cosplay pictures =( Edit: how'd all those mean people get your contact info?
No clue. I'm guessing they bullshitted to a guildmate or a friend to get my number.
On October 18 2014 06:22 goiflin wrote: It's good to gear that, despite all the shit you've dealt with in the gaming community, that you've stuck around and even decided to make your own game. I hope that it goes well for you!
Games are my love and joy! Not going to let a few assholes take that way from me :D
On October 17 2014 18:00 Lucumo wrote: - Duke Nukem 3D "This is not necessarily bad, in my opinion, this simply means that this game was meant to appeal to those who view women as sexually appealing." What about kids who simply like the character and his lines? One element of the game doesn't necessarily mean it was designed to appeal towards this specific group. It's part of being a macho like he is, simple as that. What about games like GTA where there are strip clubs? Those clubs aren't exactly an uncommon thing and fit with being in the underworld. Was it designed exactly the same way?
...what? I would say that both GTA and Duke Nukem are targeted towards male audiences. It's not bad, it just is. You are free to disagree with me.
Look at what I quoted from you and look at what you just wrote. See the difference?
On October 17 2014 18:00 Lucumo wrote: - "While some modern games try to be part of that elusive third category of women targeted games, the lack of such games earlier in the rise of the popularity of gaming has led most of these efforts to be focused on more accessible game platforms, such as Facebook and mobile." You mean games like Sims? Also, what constitutes a game targeted towards women? Pink unicorns that are happily running around? Cooking games? Seems more like you think that most women like A and most men like B. However, it's not like that. Games that also appealed to women were the likes of Anno, Settlers, Black & White, heck, all those economy games back in the mid to late nineties...unless you want to say economy isn't for women. These days, you have free to play MMOs which appeal to women because you can customize your character and apparently according to you, women would like to style their characters, right? Honestly, I think it's a joke. Women and girls have been around forever. We had some on LAN parties, I met several ones who played Red Alert 2 competitively or Quake 3: Arena and even the girl who sat next to me in English classes played Call of Duty 2. The only problem is society and people like you who say A fits to X and B to Y. Boys play with lego, girls with stuffed animals or barbies. I have experienced a different side and I think what hold girls back were their parents and society that told them that playing games is wrong or not for them.
A game targeted towards women would have things which appeal to women. Sure, pink unicorns may appeal to women more than men, but so does a lot of other things, particularly having relate-able characters.
And, yeah, I know women have been around games forever, I was making that argument earlier and I've been around them myself (obviously).
Well, you obviously didn't get what I wrote or even considered it. I actually want to write RPGs but then again, considering that you ignored the two major points I made, I don't even want to bother anymore.
On October 17 2014 18:00 Lucumo wrote: - "My worst experiences, however, revolve around a group of guys who played an MMO on the same server as me. When I was chatting freely in one of the channels, I was told to "go back to the kitchen" by one of them. I retorted and an argument broke out between us, with insults being slung both ways, though all of the ones I received were base on my gender, appearance and worth as a female. While such a confrontation seemed relatively minor, it persisted and grew from them harassing me within the game and on the forums to threats of violence. I received phone calls from that left voicemails threatening me with violence and sexual assault." What does that first sentence imply? How did they know you were a girl? "Chatting freely", eh? I've played many MMOs and sunk so many hours into them but I have never ever ecountered something like that. And there were always female players around (either confirmed or unconfirmed). They never had any problems, maybe simply because they weren't going around shouting: "I'm a girl, look at me."? Gender isn't an issue im MMOs unless you try to exploit it or have really bad luck and join a terrible guild which would be the player's fault then because you normally don't just join a random one. So, how did you receive phone calls? Normally, other people don't just get yours unless you either give it to them or post it for the world to see. In both cases, it would be idiocy.
Yeah, chatting freely and I mentioned that my boyfriend, because he was going to help me run a dungeon when he got back from work when someone asked me when I was running it that week. Whoop-de-fucking-do.
And I don't know how they got my number. It wasn't posted anywhere publicly.
"Well, my boyfriend is running it with me this week. He will be back from work soon." "Go back to the kitchen." That sure is reason enough for an argument to break out. There are always two sides to a coin. Arguments can, technically, start from one side but the other has to play along with it.
If you told 50 people in the game, that would be the same. It's your phone number, so unless you share it, no one will know. It couldn't be easier.
On October 17 2014 18:00 Lucumo wrote: Lastly, I don't think someone who posts nude pictures of himself online for everyone to see is fit to talk about such a topic.
Oh, good, because I don't conform to your social standards, I don't deserve to express my opinion on a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SUBJECT? Yeah, cry me a river.
You mean because you have no integrity, you aren't allowed to expess your opinion? You are free to express it and everyone deserves that but it holds no value at all. Also, since you created this blog post, it's actually you crying a river, not me. One can't have it both ways, the world doesn't work like that.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://images.fastcompany.com/upload/atari-ad-mindshare.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/t7wL26o.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JsnIzSi.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yyF81ID.jpg)
