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On the Irrationality of Typical Sports Team Fans
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MichaelDonovan
United States1453 Posts
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Kronen
United States732 Posts
On a sidenote, i didn't know all the players on Manchester United were from Manchester. Good to know  . | ||
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MichaelDonovan
United States1453 Posts
On September 23 2014 05:18 Kronen wrote: Where's the irrationality of supporting "foreign" players who choose to represent an organization important to local business and culture? If someone becomes part of an organization, aren't they by virtue of dedicating their energies to improving that organization adopted into the local fold? I have a bit of a problem with the premise of the argument. On a sidenote, i didn't know all the players on Manchester United were from Manchester. Good to know .This isn't necessarily the case. If the Patriots offer John Smith ten million more dollars per year to join their team, then it doesn't make sense to be a fan of John Smith for joining your team unless you're a fan of the team that has the most purchasing power. By joining the Patriots, John Smith is dedicating his energy to making more money. Also I want to clarify that I don't know much about football proper (soccer). I just assume that the world cup teams have team members from the place they represent. If this is false then soccer doesn't stand up to my criticism as well as I gave it credit for. | ||
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aike
United States1629 Posts
On September 23 2014 05:18 Kronen wrote: Where's the irrationality of supporting "foreign" players who choose to represent an organization important to local business and culture? If someone becomes part of an organization, aren't they by virtue of dedicating their energies to improving that organization adopted into the local fold? I have a bit of a problem with the premise of the argument. On a sidenote, i didn't know all the players on Manchester United were from Manchester. Good to know .Haha I completely agree. I'm a huge fan of my local teams and the players on those teams. They aren't all from around here (the ones that are get even more support from me haha) but they are playing for the teams I love, they are trying their best to improve these teams. They get even more mad than I do when they lose, especially when it's to a rival team. I'm also a fan of the Green Bay Packers... and I've never been anywhere near Wisconsin. I've been a fan for probably 17 or 18 years now. I love the organization and what they stand for. I'm not a fan of all the players, but being on the packers is definitely a way to start making me a fan. If I'm a fan of a player and they go to a different team i still try to support them (Brett Favre is a hero in Wisconsin, even after going over to the enemy) | ||
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aike
United States1629 Posts
On September 23 2014 05:24 MichaelDonovan wrote: This isn't necessarily the case. If the Patriots offer John Smith ten million more dollars per year to join their team, then it doesn't make sense to be a fan of John Smith for joining your team unless you're a fan of the team that has the most purchasing power. By joining the Patriots, John Smith is dedicating his energy to making more money. Also I want to clarify that I don't know much about football proper (soccer). I just assume that the world cup teams have team members from the place they represent. If this is false then soccer doesn't stand up to my criticism as well as I gave it credit for. I feel like you don't know enough about how the teams operate (NFL) and how the salary caps and things work to really be making these arguments. Also, World Cup teams (National teams) like the Olympic athletes, only represent their country for those specific games. Most of the year they play for other leagues. Like for Example, the Germany men's team has players from Arsenal, Chelsea, Lazio, Sampdoria, Real Madrid. (teams based out of England, Italy, and Spain). If you look at the USA men's team you have players from all over the world (They are all US Citizens but play in other leagues). Hell the USA men's team coach is German  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_FIFA_World_Cup_squads#United_States | ||
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MichaelDonovan
United States1453 Posts
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MichaelDonovan
United States1453 Posts
We can squabble about why a player might change teams, and whether salary increase could be the reason, but that is beside the point. The point is that it is very unlikely that a player would switch teams just because he wants to be a part of the local culture. The player will always do what is in his best interest to do given the circumstances. | ||
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zf
231 Posts
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aike
United States1629 Posts
On September 23 2014 05:56 zf wrote: I can't agree. It's not obvious that a team is reducible to its constituent players. And, even if it were, it's not obvious that a fan's reasons for supporting a team should also apply to its players. Here's an example of this... I'm a huge Evil Geniuses fan. I also really dislike Demuslim. A team really is more than just the sum of it's players. And being a fan based on current factors only really is silly. History is a very important part of everything we as humans do. | ||
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Kronen
United States732 Posts
On September 23 2014 05:24 MichaelDonovan wrote: This isn't necessarily the case. If the Patriots offer John Smith ten million more dollars per year to join their team, then it doesn't make sense to be a fan of John Smith for joining your team unless you're a fan of the team that has the most purchasing power. By joining the Patriots, John Smith is dedicating his energy to making more money. This is a strong argument for why there are so many soulless New York Yankee fans in the world  .On the other hand, every organization has a finite amount of resources and a number of options to expend those resources. There was obviously something special about John Smith to have your organization single out him as a person of interest. Something particular in his play your organization felt would gel with the team. Therefore, the choice of your organization isn't just a "we have X dollars, let's spend X dollars on said player whom the general consensus believes is worth X dollars." There's agency and personal choice in each of these decisions. Furthermore, there have been numerous cases of players taking less money (26million versus 30+) to join a team with prospects at winning a championship (Miami Heat , Big Three). Wouldn't it stand to reason that perhaps not all players are just in it for the money? They actually want to succeed personally and professionally. By virtue of personally succeeding, they impart success onto the organization that facilitated their self-actualization. What say to you this? On September 23 2014 05:38 MichaelDonovan wrote: We can squabble about why a player might change teams, and whether salary increase could be the reason, but that is beside the point. The point is that it is very unlikely that a player would switch teams just because he wants to be a part of the local culture. The player will always do what is in his best interest to do given the circumstances. I tend to agree on this point, but this fixation on player's origin being the only motivation for them to succeed is rife with problems too. What determines player origin? Birth? Early education? Advanced education? The first place of professional employment? Isn't it up to the player to decide where he or she is "from" if that indeed is a chief motivating factor? On the other hand, there are numerous examples of relocated professionals (like Drew Brees) becoming embraced by the local culture and championing local community initiatives. He will say that before moving to Louisianna he had no strong feelings for the town, but living there for over a decade, he now feels like it is his home. --- Personal sidenote because I like your argument and I too feel that personal organization affiliation is somewhat irrational: I grew up in rural Illinois. I lived 4 hours from the Chicago Bears, two from the Indianapolis Colts, and 2 from the St Louis Rams. Who was my team of choice through all early adolescence? The San Francisco 49ers. I fell in love with the West Coast Offence championed by Bill Walsh and his slingers. It was just amazing too watch. When I moved away from Illinois and San Francisco moved away slowly from that offence, I found myself cheering for the Colts. At first, i thought it was because of nostalgia or local pride, but I soon came to realize it was because I loved watching Peyton Manning analyze and dissect a defence. While I now don't consider myself a Broncos fan (still a colts fan!!), I have come to realize that the reasons I find myself cheering for a team vs another are numerous, diverse, and often contradictory. But as long as I'm enjoying myself and enjoying the company I'm cheering with (or against), I have no problem with embracing any contradiction. | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
Being a fan is less about skill/success and more about enjoying the style and personality of the players and the other fans. What's the point if you just cheer for whoever the best team is each year? Samsung Khan is my favorite BW team because I fell in love with Stork's play in the very first BW match I can remember watching - Stork vs GGPlay on Andromeda. Eventually I grew to love the other Khan players as well, mostly Jangbi and Firebathero. They weren't the best, but I liked cheering for them the most, which what being a fan is all about! | ||
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dangthatsright
1160 Posts
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
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micronesia
United States24734 Posts
On September 23 2014 06:02 aike wrote: A team really is more than just the sum of it's players. This sums of my only concern with the OP. It creates a false dichotomy that you are a fan of a team either because you are a fan of its current players, or because you are a fan of the mascot. The latter is an unfair characterization. Teams are typically organizations which include many moving parts, and while players are very important, they are far from the only thing that contributes towards victory in the standings. You can be a fan of a sports organization while not particularly caring for the mascot, nor the hometowns of the players. My personal opinion is that professional sports is essentially a competition of mercenaries. NCAA isn't AS bad in this regard, as all players on a team go to the same school. But when pro sports come on I have to ask myself "what does this team that you are cheering for so strongly... represent?" Usually, there is not a good answer, and I can't get into pro sports very much as a result. | ||
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aike
United States1629 Posts
On September 23 2014 07:10 micronesia wrote: This sums of my only concern with the OP. It creates a false dichotomy that you are a fan of a team either because you are a fan of its current players, or because you are a fan of the mascot. The latter is an unfair characterization. Teams are typically organizations which include many moving parts, and while players are very important, they are far from the only thing that contributes towards victory in the standings. You can be a fan of a sports organization while not particularly caring for the mascot, nor the hometowns of the players. My personal opinion is that professional sports is essentially a competition of mercenaries. NCAA isn't AS bad in this regard, as all players on a team go to the same school. But when pro sports come on I have to ask myself "what does this team that you are cheering for so strongly... represent?" Usually, there is not a good answer, and I can't get into pro sports very much as a result. Hey man the Packers are a non-profit organization Easy to be a fan of that right? hahaha. The thing is, players slowly rotate out and new ones slowly come in. It's not like the entire roster shifts out. So if I start watching this year and become a fan of the current players, next year 80% of the players I'm a fan of are still there, and then new players come in and I can become a fan of them. Ans so while the team I was a fan of in 2000 isn't around anymore, over time I have become a fan of the players that slowly replaced that team | ||
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MichaelDonovan
United States1453 Posts
On September 23 2014 07:10 micronesia wrote: This sums of my only concern with the OP. It creates a false dichotomy that you are a fan of a team either because you are a fan of its current players, or because you are a fan of the mascot. The latter is an unfair characterization. Teams are typically organizations which include many moving parts, and while players are very important, they are far from the only thing that contributes towards victory in the standings. You can be a fan of a sports organization while not particularly caring for the mascot, nor the hometowns of the players. My personal opinion is that professional sports is essentially a competition of mercenaries. NCAA isn't AS bad in this regard, as all players on a team go to the same school. But when pro sports come on I have to ask myself "what does this team that you are cheering for so strongly... represent?" Usually, there is not a good answer, and I can't get into pro sports very much as a result. You're either a fan of the team as a team of players, or you are a fan of their mascot/logo. As far as a typical fan of the game of football is concerned, there are teams of players from different regions of the country who have logos and mascots. The rest of it is behind the scenes and not typically related to fandom. It's like wearing only Nike shoes either because you like how they look and you like the prestige of the brand name, or because you think they actually make the best shoes. The organization which the logo represents is just a company trying to serve its own purposes. There isn't really that much to be a fan of in that, which is why I disregarded the "sports organization" part of the team. You could bring up an example like, "Team A donates all its profits to feed hungry children. Therefore, no matter who the players are, where they're from, or how well they play, I will always be a fan of Team A." This would be perfectly reasonable, however, and outside the scope of my argument. In that case, if you ask a fan of Team A what exactly he/she is a fan of, the fan can give you a straight answer which makes complete sense. This is not the case for the typical football team or the typical football fan. You might scrutinize my use of the word "typical", but you can probably see what I'm getting at anyway. | ||
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MichaelDonovan
United States1453 Posts
On September 23 2014 07:23 aike wrote: Hey man the Packers are a non-profit organization Easy to be a fan of that right? hahaha. The thing is, players slowly rotate out and new ones slowly come in. It's not like the entire roster shifts out. So if I start watching this year and become a fan of the current players, next year 80% of the players I'm a fan of are still there, and then new players come in and I can become a fan of them. Ans so while the team I was a fan of in 2000 isn't around anymore, over time I have become a fan of the players that slowly replaced that team The slow replacement idea is interesting. But what if every new player that joins is really bad at the game compared to the people they replace? Eventually the team will start losing. How can you become a fan of that new bad player? For what reasons? | ||
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MichaelDonovan
United States1453 Posts
On September 23 2014 06:50 dangthatsright wrote: If we take a team and just rename it as basically a combination of everything politically incorrect in the region, I don't think people particularly care if it's irrational to jump ship. I think that just renaming the team at all is enough to piss people off. You rename somebody's favorite team and they will shit a cow about it. That's part of what I'm getting at too. It's a brand name and a logo that they are a fan of. | ||
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farvacola
United States18838 Posts
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aike
United States1629 Posts
On September 23 2014 07:52 MichaelDonovan wrote: The slow replacement idea is interesting. But what if every new player that joins is really bad at the game compared to the people they replace? Eventually the team will start losing. How can you become a fan of that new bad player? For what reasons? There are many reasons to be a fan of a player other than skill. People are fans of Catz and Destiny because they do fun things, not because they are champions. I'm a huge fan of White Ra, he's a great person and his games are always fun to watch whether he wins or loses. As far as on a big team sport like Football, you kind of "get to know" these players as they come in as rookies and slowly start to play more and more, so you build a connection with them that will either make you like or dislike them  | ||
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