• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 08:50
CEST 14:50
KST 21:50
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy18ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book20
Community News
$5,000 WardiTV TLMC tournament - Presented by Monster Energy1GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding0Weekly Cups (May 30-Apr 5): herO, Clem, SHIN win0[BSL22] RO32 Group Stage4Weekly Cups (March 23-29): herO takes triple6
StarCraft 2
General
BGE Stara Zagora 2026 cancelled Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool Weekly Cups (May 30-Apr 5): herO, Clem, SHIN win Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy
Tourneys
RSL Season 4 announced for March-April $5,000 WardiTV TLMC tournament - Presented by Monster Energy Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 520 Moving Fees Mutation # 519 Inner Power Mutation # 518 Radiation Zone
Brood War
General
so ive been playing broodwar for a week straight. Gypsy to Korea ASL21 General Discussion Pros React To: JaeDong vs Queen [BSL22] RO32 Group Stage
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL22] RO32 Group B - Sunday 21:00 CEST [BSL22] RO32 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CEST 🌍 Weekly Foreign Showmatches
Strategy
Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Darkest Dungeon
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread General nutrition recommendations
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Loot Boxes—Emotions, And Why…
TrAiDoS
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2208 users

Computers and Thinking

Blogs > Blazinghand
Post a Reply
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25558 Posts
August 25 2014 03:44 GMT
#1

Computers and Thinking





I was recently reading a thread about the difficulty level of Sc2 AIs. Basically, after a while they stop getting smarter and just get bonus resources and stuff, because of how difficulty it is to make a smart AI. One commenter wrote:

On August 25 2014 09:51 FaceSlaP wrote:
I guess this goes to show that SCII is even more complicated and requires a higher IQ to master than chess where computers have recently completely dominated humans.


It might be worth noting that in chess there are significantly fewer parameters involved in being "ahead". You can represent someone's pieces+position advantage in chess using a number, then have your chess computer look at a bunch of possible moves and pick the one that gives the best number. In Starcraft, there's a lot more going on in terms of ways you can have an advantage. For example, you could imagine a situation where you would need the ability to defend against air units, invisible units, etc-- where strategically speaking, building a missile turret is simple, it's a lot more difficult to quantify this into something a computer can process.

For example, we consider something like chess to be very complicated, and something like driving a car or holding a conversation to be "somewhat complicated, but definitely doable all the freakin time by humans". And yet, despite this fact, Computers are really really really good at chess, so good it's not even fair to have competitions between well-optimised computers and humans. At the same time, we're only JUST beginning to get to a point where a computer can pretend to hold a conversation, or drive a car.

The basic thing is, humans are good at some things and bad at others, and computers are the same way. For example, computers are probably bad at being stand-up comedians with original content. You might say "I guess this goes to show that stand-up comedy is even more complicated and requires a higher IQ than chess" or whatever, and maybe that would be correct. On the other hand, computers can quickly multiply really big numbers, or take natural logarithms in an instant that would take a human, even one armed with a slide rule, a pencil, and a paper, a long time. This doesn't mean that logarithm races are inherently more complicated and requires a higher IQ than chess, or SC2. All it means is that it represents a different kind of thinking.

It will probably always be the case that there will be certain domains where humans are utterly dominant, and certain domains where computers are utterly dominant. We're very different from each other. The way we calculate and process is different. And that makes sense; after all, we run on different hardware and operating systems from computers. I'd be much, much more surprised if computers thought in the same way as humans, and were strong where we were strong and weak where we were weak. No, the fact that SCII AIs are bad at SCII says nothing about the strategic complexity of SCII as played by humans. All it says is that computers are bad at it.

***
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
August 25 2014 08:14 GMT
#2
Well said.
netherh
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United Kingdom333 Posts
August 25 2014 12:01 GMT
#3
There's also the amount of time people have spent on creating chess AIs vs SCII AIs. With some concentrated effort, I'm sure it would be possible to make an unbeatable SCII AI that didn't cheat, but I wouldn't be surprised if the number of people who've tried to make a competent AI for SCII is in the single digits.
Kupon3ss
Profile Joined May 2008
時の回廊10066 Posts
August 25 2014 13:22 GMT
#4
The single biggest problem to SC2 AI is imperfect information and intuitive scouting. I personally believed that any of the marine-microbots with perfect information or maphack should have 100% winrates anyways human opponents.
When in doubt, just believe in yourself and press buttons
ThomasjServo
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
15244 Posts
August 25 2014 13:51 GMT
#5
On August 25 2014 22:22 Kupon3ss wrote:
The single biggest problem to SC2 AI is imperfect information and intuitive scouting. I personally believed that any of the marine-microbots with perfect information or maphack should have 100% winrates anyways human opponents.

Well I suppose that would be the biggest difference in that perfect play in SC2 is actually inhuman. One of those micro bots could actually split single lings to take tank shots, and avoid the splash radius. A computer playing perfect Chess is hardly the same thing.
Nesserev
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belgium2760 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-25 15:47:34
August 25 2014 15:44 GMT
#6
--- Nuked ---
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 11h 10m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech138
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 6027
Sea 2751
Jaedong 2664
Bisu 2121
firebathero 611
Mini 445
Light 377
Hyuk 376
Stork 376
EffOrt 338
[ Show more ]
ZerO 335
actioN 322
Rush 241
Snow 211
Soulkey 189
Pusan 173
ggaemo 154
Killer 149
Leta 122
hero 104
Sharp 103
Hyun 73
Backho 63
NaDa 61
Aegong 58
[sc1f]eonzerg 54
Free 48
ToSsGirL 45
sorry 42
Barracks 41
Shinee 41
scan(afreeca) 41
JulyZerg 38
JYJ 37
HiyA 30
Nal_rA 29
GoRush 19
Icarus 18
Bale 17
ajuk12(nOOB) 13
Sacsri 12
IntoTheRainbow 9
Rock 9
SilentControl 7
Dota 2
Gorgc5642
qojqva830
syndereN110
Counter-Strike
olofmeister4485
markeloff104
edward69
Other Games
singsing2237
Liquid`RaSZi1085
B2W.Neo541
Lowko334
crisheroes271
XaKoH 198
ArmadaUGS49
Mew2King43
Liquid`VortiX19
ZerO(Twitch)14
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL21248
Other Games
BasetradeTV1153
StarCraft 2
WardiTV574
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 7
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 2
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos3163
Other Games
• WagamamaTV216
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
11h 10m
WardiTV Team League
22h 10m
Replay Cast
1d 11h
CranKy Ducklings
1d 21h
WardiTV Team League
1d 22h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
BSL
2 days
n0maD vs perroflaco
TerrOr vs ZZZero
MadiNho vs WolFix
DragOn vs LancerX
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV Team League
2 days
OSC
3 days
[ Show More ]
BSL
3 days
Sterling vs Azhi_Dahaki
Napoleon vs Mazur
Jimin vs Nesh
spx vs Strudel
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
GSL
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Elite League 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W2
IPSL Spring 2026
Escore Tournament S2: W3
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
RSL Revival: Season 5
WardiTV TLMC #16
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.