• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:39
CEST 13:39
KST 20:39
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror4[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10
Community News
Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)0SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup10StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026)73Weekly Cups (Sept 21-27): herO and ByuN double2Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple3
StarCraft 2
General
How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4) StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026) SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup Back to SC2 after 14 years - Protoss CTRL groups?
Tourneys
Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Grand Finals Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) SC2 INu's Battles#21 [ 3-Days tournament ]
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 546 Catch the Train The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble
Brood War
General
20-year-old Valorant player starting StarCraft Sagi.gg Launcher Released Fantasy returning? BSL Season 23 Bot on ladder
Tourneys
[ASL22] Semifinal B [ASL22] Semifinal A [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro8 Day 4
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Dating: How's your luck? Artificial Intelligence Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Escaping Into Video Games: G…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9575 users

Computers and Thinking

Blogs > Blazinghand
Post a Reply
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25563 Posts
August 25 2014 03:44 GMT
#1

Computers and Thinking





I was recently reading a thread about the difficulty level of Sc2 AIs. Basically, after a while they stop getting smarter and just get bonus resources and stuff, because of how difficulty it is to make a smart AI. One commenter wrote:

On August 25 2014 09:51 FaceSlaP wrote:
I guess this goes to show that SCII is even more complicated and requires a higher IQ to master than chess where computers have recently completely dominated humans.


It might be worth noting that in chess there are significantly fewer parameters involved in being "ahead". You can represent someone's pieces+position advantage in chess using a number, then have your chess computer look at a bunch of possible moves and pick the one that gives the best number. In Starcraft, there's a lot more going on in terms of ways you can have an advantage. For example, you could imagine a situation where you would need the ability to defend against air units, invisible units, etc-- where strategically speaking, building a missile turret is simple, it's a lot more difficult to quantify this into something a computer can process.

For example, we consider something like chess to be very complicated, and something like driving a car or holding a conversation to be "somewhat complicated, but definitely doable all the freakin time by humans". And yet, despite this fact, Computers are really really really good at chess, so good it's not even fair to have competitions between well-optimised computers and humans. At the same time, we're only JUST beginning to get to a point where a computer can pretend to hold a conversation, or drive a car.

The basic thing is, humans are good at some things and bad at others, and computers are the same way. For example, computers are probably bad at being stand-up comedians with original content. You might say "I guess this goes to show that stand-up comedy is even more complicated and requires a higher IQ than chess" or whatever, and maybe that would be correct. On the other hand, computers can quickly multiply really big numbers, or take natural logarithms in an instant that would take a human, even one armed with a slide rule, a pencil, and a paper, a long time. This doesn't mean that logarithm races are inherently more complicated and requires a higher IQ than chess, or SC2. All it means is that it represents a different kind of thinking.

It will probably always be the case that there will be certain domains where humans are utterly dominant, and certain domains where computers are utterly dominant. We're very different from each other. The way we calculate and process is different. And that makes sense; after all, we run on different hardware and operating systems from computers. I'd be much, much more surprised if computers thought in the same way as humans, and were strong where we were strong and weak where we were weak. No, the fact that SCII AIs are bad at SCII says nothing about the strategic complexity of SCII as played by humans. All it says is that computers are bad at it.

***
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
August 25 2014 08:14 GMT
#2
Well said.
netherh
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United Kingdom333 Posts
August 25 2014 12:01 GMT
#3
There's also the amount of time people have spent on creating chess AIs vs SCII AIs. With some concentrated effort, I'm sure it would be possible to make an unbeatable SCII AI that didn't cheat, but I wouldn't be surprised if the number of people who've tried to make a competent AI for SCII is in the single digits.
Kupon3ss
Profile Joined May 2008
時の回廊10066 Posts
August 25 2014 13:22 GMT
#4
The single biggest problem to SC2 AI is imperfect information and intuitive scouting. I personally believed that any of the marine-microbots with perfect information or maphack should have 100% winrates anyways human opponents.
When in doubt, just believe in yourself and press buttons
ThomasjServo
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
15244 Posts
August 25 2014 13:51 GMT
#5
On August 25 2014 22:22 Kupon3ss wrote:
The single biggest problem to SC2 AI is imperfect information and intuitive scouting. I personally believed that any of the marine-microbots with perfect information or maphack should have 100% winrates anyways human opponents.

Well I suppose that would be the biggest difference in that perfect play in SC2 is actually inhuman. One of those micro bots could actually split single lings to take tank shots, and avoid the splash radius. A computer playing perfect Chess is hardly the same thing.
Nesserev
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belgium2760 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-25 15:47:34
August 25 2014 15:44 GMT
#6
--- Nuked ---
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
INu's Battles
20:00
INu's Battles#21
SHIN vs Cure
ByuN vs Zoun
IntoTheiNu 951
WardiTV342
LiquipediaDiscussion
Afreeca Starleague
19:00
Ro4 Match 2
Soma vs Soulkey
Afreeca ASL 12426
StarCastTV_EN392
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko345
ProTech127
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 16578
Bisu 4525
Jaedong 4071
EffOrt 1235
BeSt 980
ZerO 521
Horang2 467
Pusan 307
actioN 276
Zeus 240
[ Show more ]
Larva 198
Mind 137
Hyun 129
Yoon 114
Barracks 108
ggaemo 78
Killer 54
Sharp 44
scan(afreeca) 41
Shinee 40
Bale 36
ToSsGirL 33
NotJumperer 33
Sea.KH 27
Terrorterran 23
Hm[arnc] 20
Sacsri 19
Snow 12
zelot 11
Noble 10
ajuk12(nOOB) 9
Dota 2
Dendi892
League of Legends
JimRising 312
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1660
byalli630
markeloff58
Other Games
crisheroes249
Pyrionflax188
DeMusliM152
dupreeh103
Mew2King62
QueenE17
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 193
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream50
[ Show 11 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 47
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV595
League of Legends
• Jankos1214
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
12h 21m
Patches Events
1d 4h
The PondCast
1d 22h
INu's Battles
1d 23h
Percival vs TBD
TBD vs herO
OSC
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
OSC
3 days
BSL: Ladder Tournament
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Patches Events
5 days
[ Show More ]
BSL Open Qualifier
5 days
BSL Open Qualifier
5 days
WardiTV Weekly
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Copium Cup

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - GSB
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
HCC Season 3
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.