• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:08
CEST 19:08
KST 02:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star5Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists14[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow9[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0
Community News
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers11Maestros of the Game 2 announced52026 GSL Tour plans announced14Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail1MaNa leaves Team Liquid22
StarCraft 2
General
Maestros of the Game 2 announced 2026 GSL Tour plans announced Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool MaNa leaves Team Liquid Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding 2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 522 Flip My Base The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss Mutation # 520 Moving Fees
Brood War
General
ASL21 Strategy, Pimpest Plays Discussions Data needed BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star RepMastered™: replay sharing and analyzer site
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro16 Group C Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro16 Group A
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend? Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Reappraising The Situation T…
TrAiDoS
lurker extra damage testi…
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1629 users

Computers and Thinking

Blogs > Blazinghand
Post a Reply
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25559 Posts
August 25 2014 03:44 GMT
#1

Computers and Thinking





I was recently reading a thread about the difficulty level of Sc2 AIs. Basically, after a while they stop getting smarter and just get bonus resources and stuff, because of how difficulty it is to make a smart AI. One commenter wrote:

On August 25 2014 09:51 FaceSlaP wrote:
I guess this goes to show that SCII is even more complicated and requires a higher IQ to master than chess where computers have recently completely dominated humans.


It might be worth noting that in chess there are significantly fewer parameters involved in being "ahead". You can represent someone's pieces+position advantage in chess using a number, then have your chess computer look at a bunch of possible moves and pick the one that gives the best number. In Starcraft, there's a lot more going on in terms of ways you can have an advantage. For example, you could imagine a situation where you would need the ability to defend against air units, invisible units, etc-- where strategically speaking, building a missile turret is simple, it's a lot more difficult to quantify this into something a computer can process.

For example, we consider something like chess to be very complicated, and something like driving a car or holding a conversation to be "somewhat complicated, but definitely doable all the freakin time by humans". And yet, despite this fact, Computers are really really really good at chess, so good it's not even fair to have competitions between well-optimised computers and humans. At the same time, we're only JUST beginning to get to a point where a computer can pretend to hold a conversation, or drive a car.

The basic thing is, humans are good at some things and bad at others, and computers are the same way. For example, computers are probably bad at being stand-up comedians with original content. You might say "I guess this goes to show that stand-up comedy is even more complicated and requires a higher IQ than chess" or whatever, and maybe that would be correct. On the other hand, computers can quickly multiply really big numbers, or take natural logarithms in an instant that would take a human, even one armed with a slide rule, a pencil, and a paper, a long time. This doesn't mean that logarithm races are inherently more complicated and requires a higher IQ than chess, or SC2. All it means is that it represents a different kind of thinking.

It will probably always be the case that there will be certain domains where humans are utterly dominant, and certain domains where computers are utterly dominant. We're very different from each other. The way we calculate and process is different. And that makes sense; after all, we run on different hardware and operating systems from computers. I'd be much, much more surprised if computers thought in the same way as humans, and were strong where we were strong and weak where we were weak. No, the fact that SCII AIs are bad at SCII says nothing about the strategic complexity of SCII as played by humans. All it says is that computers are bad at it.

***
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
August 25 2014 08:14 GMT
#2
Well said.
netherh
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United Kingdom333 Posts
August 25 2014 12:01 GMT
#3
There's also the amount of time people have spent on creating chess AIs vs SCII AIs. With some concentrated effort, I'm sure it would be possible to make an unbeatable SCII AI that didn't cheat, but I wouldn't be surprised if the number of people who've tried to make a competent AI for SCII is in the single digits.
Kupon3ss
Profile Joined May 2008
時の回廊10066 Posts
August 25 2014 13:22 GMT
#4
The single biggest problem to SC2 AI is imperfect information and intuitive scouting. I personally believed that any of the marine-microbots with perfect information or maphack should have 100% winrates anyways human opponents.
When in doubt, just believe in yourself and press buttons
ThomasjServo
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
15244 Posts
August 25 2014 13:51 GMT
#5
On August 25 2014 22:22 Kupon3ss wrote:
The single biggest problem to SC2 AI is imperfect information and intuitive scouting. I personally believed that any of the marine-microbots with perfect information or maphack should have 100% winrates anyways human opponents.

Well I suppose that would be the biggest difference in that perfect play in SC2 is actually inhuman. One of those micro bots could actually split single lings to take tank shots, and avoid the splash radius. A computer playing perfect Chess is hardly the same thing.
Nesserev
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belgium2760 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-25 15:47:34
August 25 2014 15:44 GMT
#6
--- Nuked ---
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Monday Night Weeklies
16:00
#48
RotterdaM693
TKL 228
IndyStarCraft 183
BRAT_OK 103
SteadfastSC92
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 686
mouzHeroMarine 385
TKL 228
IndyStarCraft 192
ProTech137
BRAT_OK 103
SteadfastSC 92
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 5332
Mini 797
EffOrt 583
Larva 553
Soma 536
BeSt 487
Soulkey 486
Stork 443
ggaemo 380
Rush 203
[ Show more ]
actioN 191
Dewaltoss 160
hero 143
Killer 103
Sharp 75
Hyun 70
Snow 65
Hm[arnc] 49
sSak 38
Backho 32
910 31
Movie 23
yabsab 17
Shine 16
Terrorterran 14
zelot 9
ivOry 5
eros_byul 1
Dota 2
Gorgc6829
qojqva1926
BananaSlamJamma156
Counter-Strike
fl0m1563
byalli639
adren_tv39
kRYSTAL_19
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu149
Other Games
Grubby3292
FrodaN968
hiko702
Beastyqt615
B2W.Neo571
ceh9490
ArmadaUGS165
Hui .140
Sick70
KnowMe51
Trikslyr50
MindelVK9
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream10158
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream2242
Other Games
BasetradeTV818
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 83
• Reevou 6
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV511
League of Legends
• Jankos3019
• Nemesis2365
• TFBlade1903
Other Games
• imaqtpie252
• Shiphtur165
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
8h 52m
GSL
14h 52m
Afreeca Starleague
16h 52m
Barracks vs Leta
Royal vs Light
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
17h 52m
RSL Revival
1d 16h
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
KCM Race Survival
2 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
[ Show More ]
Escore
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
4 days
Universe Titan Cup
4 days
Rogue vs Percival
Ladder Legends
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
BSL
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
WardiTV Map Contest Tou…
5 days
Ladder Legends
5 days
BSL
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Monday Night Weeklies
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S2: W3
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W4
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.