• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 06:18
CET 12:18
KST 20:18
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners11Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting12[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11
Community News
StarCraft, SC2, HotS, WC3, Returning to Blizzcon!45$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship7[BSL21] RO32 Group Stage4Weekly Cups (Oct 26-Nov 2): Liquid, Clem, Solar win; LAN in Philly2Weekly Cups (Oct 20-26): MaxPax, Clem, Creator win10
StarCraft 2
General
Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners StarCraft, SC2, HotS, WC3, Returning to Blizzcon! RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close" Weekly Cups (Oct 20-26): MaxPax, Clem, Creator win
Tourneys
Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection
Brood War
General
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle BW General Discussion [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Where's CardinalAllin/Jukado the mapmaker?
Tourneys
[ASL20] Grand Finals [BSL21] RO32 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CET [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO32 Group B - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
PvZ map balance Current Meta How to stay on top of macro? Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Learning my new SC2 hotkey…
Hildegard
Coffee x Performance in Espo…
TrAiDoS
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
Our Last Hope in th…
KrillinFromwales
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1495 users

Computers and Thinking

Blogs > Blazinghand
Post a Reply
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25553 Posts
August 25 2014 03:44 GMT
#1

Computers and Thinking





I was recently reading a thread about the difficulty level of Sc2 AIs. Basically, after a while they stop getting smarter and just get bonus resources and stuff, because of how difficulty it is to make a smart AI. One commenter wrote:

On August 25 2014 09:51 FaceSlaP wrote:
I guess this goes to show that SCII is even more complicated and requires a higher IQ to master than chess where computers have recently completely dominated humans.


It might be worth noting that in chess there are significantly fewer parameters involved in being "ahead". You can represent someone's pieces+position advantage in chess using a number, then have your chess computer look at a bunch of possible moves and pick the one that gives the best number. In Starcraft, there's a lot more going on in terms of ways you can have an advantage. For example, you could imagine a situation where you would need the ability to defend against air units, invisible units, etc-- where strategically speaking, building a missile turret is simple, it's a lot more difficult to quantify this into something a computer can process.

For example, we consider something like chess to be very complicated, and something like driving a car or holding a conversation to be "somewhat complicated, but definitely doable all the freakin time by humans". And yet, despite this fact, Computers are really really really good at chess, so good it's not even fair to have competitions between well-optimised computers and humans. At the same time, we're only JUST beginning to get to a point where a computer can pretend to hold a conversation, or drive a car.

The basic thing is, humans are good at some things and bad at others, and computers are the same way. For example, computers are probably bad at being stand-up comedians with original content. You might say "I guess this goes to show that stand-up comedy is even more complicated and requires a higher IQ than chess" or whatever, and maybe that would be correct. On the other hand, computers can quickly multiply really big numbers, or take natural logarithms in an instant that would take a human, even one armed with a slide rule, a pencil, and a paper, a long time. This doesn't mean that logarithm races are inherently more complicated and requires a higher IQ than chess, or SC2. All it means is that it represents a different kind of thinking.

It will probably always be the case that there will be certain domains where humans are utterly dominant, and certain domains where computers are utterly dominant. We're very different from each other. The way we calculate and process is different. And that makes sense; after all, we run on different hardware and operating systems from computers. I'd be much, much more surprised if computers thought in the same way as humans, and were strong where we were strong and weak where we were weak. No, the fact that SCII AIs are bad at SCII says nothing about the strategic complexity of SCII as played by humans. All it says is that computers are bad at it.

***
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
August 25 2014 08:14 GMT
#2
Well said.
netherh
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United Kingdom333 Posts
August 25 2014 12:01 GMT
#3
There's also the amount of time people have spent on creating chess AIs vs SCII AIs. With some concentrated effort, I'm sure it would be possible to make an unbeatable SCII AI that didn't cheat, but I wouldn't be surprised if the number of people who've tried to make a competent AI for SCII is in the single digits.
Kupon3ss
Profile Joined May 2008
時の回廊10066 Posts
August 25 2014 13:22 GMT
#4
The single biggest problem to SC2 AI is imperfect information and intuitive scouting. I personally believed that any of the marine-microbots with perfect information or maphack should have 100% winrates anyways human opponents.
When in doubt, just believe in yourself and press buttons
ThomasjServo
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
15244 Posts
August 25 2014 13:51 GMT
#5
On August 25 2014 22:22 Kupon3ss wrote:
The single biggest problem to SC2 AI is imperfect information and intuitive scouting. I personally believed that any of the marine-microbots with perfect information or maphack should have 100% winrates anyways human opponents.

Well I suppose that would be the biggest difference in that perfect play in SC2 is actually inhuman. One of those micro bots could actually split single lings to take tank shots, and avoid the splash radius. A computer playing perfect Chess is hardly the same thing.
Nesserev
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belgium2760 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-25 15:47:34
August 25 2014 15:44 GMT
#6
--- Nuked ---
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
09:00
OSC Elite Rising Star #17
CranKy Ducklings118
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Hui .145
Livibee 129
Rex 12
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 8447
Jaedong 3494
GuemChi 2092
Horang2 1793
Sea 1784
Pusan 545
Stork 329
Mini 288
Larva 270
Hyun 236
[ Show more ]
Zeus 226
Light 118
PianO 116
Backho 91
Killer 89
ZerO 62
ggaemo 56
sSak 55
Barracks 53
Aegong 51
ToSsGirL 50
JulyZerg 47
JYJ42
Sharp 37
soO 33
zelot 16
Sacsri 11
Sea.KH 11
Icarus 10
Noble 10
SilentControl 8
Dota 2
XcaliburYe396
Dendi291
KheZu101
League of Legends
JimRising 369
Reynor96
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1263
shoxiejesuss572
x6flipin309
allub224
zeus104
Other Games
B2W.Neo383
Pyrionflax354
Sick335
crisheroes213
Mew2King112
Fuzer 56
ZerO(Twitch)11
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 8
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 45
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• WagamamaTV118
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
42m
Rex12
Wardi Open
4h 42m
Replay Cast
11h 42m
WardiTV Korean Royale
1d
Replay Cast
1d 11h
Replay Cast
1d 21h
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
Classic vs Solar
herO vs Cure
Reynor vs GuMiho
ByuN vs ShoWTimE
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Solar vs Zoun
MaxPax vs Bunny
[ Show More ]
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
3 days
PiGosaur Monday
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Classic vs Creator
Cure vs TriGGeR
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
herO vs Gerald
ByuN vs SHIN
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
BSL 21
5 days
Tarson vs Julia
Doodle vs OldBoy
eOnzErG vs WolFix
StRyKeR vs Aeternum
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Reynor vs sOs
Maru vs Ryung
Kung Fu Cup
6 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
6 days
BSL 21
6 days
JDConan vs Semih
Dragon vs Dienmax
Tech vs NewOcean
TerrOr vs Artosis
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-07
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual

Upcoming

SLON Tour Season 2
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
META Madness #9
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.