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TLIHs are dead, long live TLIHs - Page 2

Blogs > makmeatt
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Yoshi-
Profile Joined October 2008
Germany10227 Posts
June 23 2014 19:34 GMT
#21
Are there even any inhouses games happening?

There really are like absolute zero informations anywhere on that site. that might be why nobody plays it, because nobody even knows about it?
makmeatt
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
2024 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-23 19:38:08
June 23 2014 19:37 GMT
#22
On June 24 2014 04:34 Yoshi- wrote:
Are there even any inhouses games happening?

There really are like absolute zero informations anywhere on that site. that might be why nobody plays it, because nobody even knows about it?

They aren't now. Whoever tries to assemble one, gets discouraged after failing to do it with a short notice. I'm gonna be trying to get a few games every day starting Saturday, we'll see how it goes and what adjustments we'll need to make to get a lobby full.
"Silver Edge can't break my hope" - Kryptt 2016 || "Chrono is not a debuff, you just get rekt" - Guru 2016
Jinxed
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States6450 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-23 20:52:02
June 23 2014 20:51 GMT
#23
So there is one other issue that a lot of people really aren't taking into account unfortunately, and it is something that needs to be brought up I think so that everyone can see all sides of this.

The fact of the matter is that for the better players in TLIH, playing with/against people that aren't very good ranges between a nuisance and irritating.

Like, the top tier people that play (Rocketbear, Alurr, Beesa to name a few) often times would literally have to be either holding the hand of the people that they were playing with, or dragging them entirely to victory. I know multiple occasions where the top players would get frustrated at their teammates simply because the fact of the matter is that they couldn't do their job and teach the new players how to do theirs at the same time. And when you have to do that in the middle of a game with new players on key heroes (seriously putting a new player on an initiatior is just painful sometimes) it's a bit discouraging when you can instead play MM and not have half of those issues.

This isn't to say that TLIH shouldn't be all inclusive. Hell I literally had never played Dota, LoL, or HoN when I first started hanging around the inhouses, but the fact of the matter is that people have to be able to learn on their own and be able to do their job when playing with these others because of the massive difference in skill that can exist in these.

TLIH above all else is a good place to learn how to play proper Dota. But the key to that is that the people have to not only be asking questions to the people around them, but to themselves and figuring out things on their own as well. If we can get newcomers who will do that, I think that would end up easing a lot of the burden that the older players feel when playing and would make it a lot more fun for everyone.
LiquidDota Staff"LeLoup is a great name pls undo." -Liquid`Nazgul
Kupon3ss
Profile Joined May 2008
時の回廊10066 Posts
June 23 2014 21:11 GMT
#24
every time i draft a lineup i have to account for nobody being able to play any of it~
When in doubt, just believe in yourself and press buttons
makmeatt
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
2024 Posts
June 23 2014 21:15 GMT
#25
On June 24 2014 06:11 Kupon3ss wrote:
every time i draft a lineup i have to account for nobody being able to play any of it~

To be perfectly fair, only bravery is required to play your drafts, and it works most of the time.
"Silver Edge can't break my hope" - Kryptt 2016 || "Chrono is not a debuff, you just get rekt" - Guru 2016
Laurens
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium4539 Posts
June 23 2014 21:19 GMT
#26
Just draft yourself solo offlane Abaddon and carry the game.

I enjoyed most of the TLIHs I played. There was one particularly bad game where someone on my team started spamming GG nonstop from minute 3, and abandoned shortly afterwards when we kept cancelling.

That in itself was fine, but what annoyed me was that the player in question didn't get punished at all. Rodberd talks about this on the previous page, certain people being too famous to get punished. That shouldn't happen.

Of course if we're not using the IXDL client there's no system at all to punish people so that's an issue.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-23 21:59:19
June 23 2014 21:26 GMT
#27
On June 24 2014 05:51 LeLoup wrote:
So there is one other issue that a lot of people really aren't taking into account unfortunately, and it is something that needs to be brought up I think so that everyone can see all sides of this.

The fact of the matter is that for the better players in TLIH, playing with/against people that aren't very good ranges between a nuisance and irritating.

Like, the top tier people that play (Rocketbear, Alurr, Beesa to name a few) often times would literally have to be either holding the hand of the people that they were playing with, or dragging them entirely to victory. I know multiple occasions where the top players would get frustrated at their teammates simply because the fact of the matter is that they couldn't do their job and teach the new players how to do theirs at the same time. And when you have to do that in the middle of a game with new players on key heroes (seriously putting a new player on an initiatior is just painful sometimes) it's a bit discouraging when you can instead play MM and not have half of those issues.

This isn't to say that TLIH shouldn't be all inclusive. Hell I literally had never played Dota, LoL, or HoN when I first started hanging around the inhouses, but the fact of the matter is that people have to be able to learn on their own and be able to do their job when playing with these others because of the massive difference in skill that can exist in these.

TLIH above all else is a good place to learn how to play proper Dota. But the key to that is that the people have to not only be asking questions to the people around them, but to themselves and figuring out things on their own as well. If we can get newcomers who will do that, I think that would end up easing a lot of the burden that the older players feel when playing and would make it a lot more fun for everyone.

On the other side of this, as one of those players dragging the team down, it is almost impossible to learn when the skill gap is that large. The game is so much "faster" and tighter than what most pub players are used to its really hard to come back from a few mistakes. There are also some language barriers as well.

Also, people's ability to play dota well does not directly translate into their ability to teach dota to newer players. Teaching is a skill and it requires a lot of patience and practice, both of which are not available during a dota match with highly skilled players on both sides. Telling players to "roam and make shit happen" generally is not sufficient.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
DrPandaPhD
Profile Joined November 2011
5188 Posts
June 23 2014 21:42 GMT
#28
Depending on the mood I am in, it's sometimes pretty frustrating trying to teach 4 players + focus on my own gameplay. I don't mind people making mistakes, and I don't mind helping others (even though I probably suck at it). But once I start to focus on way too many things at the same time, I start making mistakes I wouldn't usually do. And I get frustrated, because dying is boring and I don't want to be dead when I shouldn't be t_t
So I get more frustrated by my own play, because of teammates. And depending on mood I might get pretty bitter.

And yes I agree with Plan6, when the skillgap is too big, it's really hard to learn anything from it. It's easier to learn when your opponents are a bit better than you. But when people are a lot better then it doesn't help at all.
리노크 👑
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-23 21:58:33
June 23 2014 21:57 GMT
#29
It is the natural problem of having the in house games open to anyone. It's natural for people to be at different levels, but people can't expect the games to just "work out" when you have people from the bottom of the tench playing against people who might be matched up with professional players.

I feel TL has not used the coaching feature at all and it could be a good way to help new players improve. The problem with that is that the player who is coaching has to love to teach. I like to teach and I'm good at it, which is why I train all the new hires at my firm, but I am bad at dota. And thus is the problem, good players want the ball all the time and when you are teaching, you don't get the ball.

Or the higher level players could just suck up their pride and accept that the are playing with some trench ass players and just accept that mistakes will be made.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Jinxed
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States6450 Posts
June 23 2014 23:28 GMT
#30
The thing is not how wide the skill gap is but the idea that there aren't enough of the mid level players around anymore. I'm still pretty terrible so when I'm considered one of the mid skill people there is probably an issue. Less mid skill people = harder games for the top tier people.

Tldr we need more firebolts.
LiquidDota Staff"LeLoup is a great name pls undo." -Liquid`Nazgul
makmeatt
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
2024 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-23 23:29:45
June 23 2014 23:29 GMT
#31
On June 24 2014 08:28 LeLoup wrote:
Tldr we need more firebolts.

How's that gonna make it any easier?
+ Show Spoiler +
hue
"Silver Edge can't break my hope" - Kryptt 2016 || "Chrono is not a debuff, you just get rekt" - Guru 2016
Kraznaya
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3711 Posts
June 23 2014 23:33 GMT
#32
i think TL is too large a community for a casual pickup league to make sense

those leagues only work if everyone vaguely knows each other

but TL is so big that chances are the players in the game might as well be random pubs especially with an open system where everyone can join

theres basically no incentive to play such games since without matchmaking the game quality will likely be much worse than ur average matchmade pub game

so the only option i really see working for community of tls size would be a ladder inhouse system with rankings and a semi competitive environment, like ixdl but with stricter rules for flaming and such given tl's culture

but given the toxicity of the general dota community i doubt anyone on tl would want to mod or admin that

do you have enough resolve, hero of justice?
makmeatt
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
2024 Posts
June 23 2014 23:37 GMT
#33
On June 24 2014 08:33 Kraznaya wrote:
i think TL is too large a community for a casual pickup league to make sense

those leagues only work if everyone vaguely knows each other

but TL is so big that chances are the players in the game might as well be random pubs especially with an open system where everyone can join

theres basically no incentive to play such games since without matchmaking the game quality will likely be much worse than ur average matchmade pub game

so the only option i really see working for community of tls size would be a ladder inhouse system with rankings and a semi competitive environment, like ixdl but with stricter rules for flaming and such given tl's culture

but given the toxicity of the general dota community i doubt anyone on tl would want to mod or admin that

We've been through this and I hope everyone has learned their lesson in that regard; although since we will have to somehow set up a stable influx of players in order to make it a sustainable endeavor, we will have to think of a way to bring new people closer or something. And toxicity around here will be dealt with harshly - if no one else will, I will (somehow) take care of it.
I know all this might sound like wishful thinking, but that's where a lot of good things start.
"Silver Edge can't break my hope" - Kryptt 2016 || "Chrono is not a debuff, you just get rekt" - Guru 2016
DrPandaPhD
Profile Joined November 2011
5188 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-23 23:50:24
June 23 2014 23:49 GMT
#34
We tried to have the TLIHN thing for a while for coaching, it worked out ok. Can maybe try to do it again.. It's just really hard to teach from an outsider's perspective rather than when you are ingame with them.


Leloup wrote a pretty accurate post up there ^.
We don't have much pride. I play with anyone who wants to play with me, pm me and you get my steam ID etc. I play with a lot of lower rated people who I find it fun to play with. Seeing mistakes doesn't bother me that much. It's when it gets to the point, where people expect me to help them with literally everything. Which makes me unfocused, and then I make mistakes which I know wouldn't happen. So I don't mind seeing other peoples mistakes, it's my own I get frustrated over. And only when it happens because of lack of focus. Maybe it's selfish, I just prioritize my own enjoyment.

I have helped a lot of people, and I don't mind doing so at all. My "teaching style" is pretty casual and just focus on fundamental mistakes. E.G. If a player wasn't at a fight he should have been, I will point that out. But if he was at that fight, but missed his spells and died. Then it's whatever, shit happens. The idea was right. Which also mean I don't point out 1000 mistakes every game, which some people seem to expect from me. The players who has played with me for a longer time has significantly improved. I just want to have fun as well, not put all my effort into teaching.

Hope this post make sense

On June 24 2014 08:33 Kraznaya wrote:
i think TL is too large a community for a casual pickup league to make sense

TL community =! TLIH community though. The TLIH community is pretty small.
리노크 👑
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-23 23:57:59
June 23 2014 23:54 GMT
#35
On June 24 2014 08:28 LeLoup wrote:
The thing is not how wide the skill gap is but the idea that there aren't enough of the mid level players around anymore. I'm still pretty terrible so when I'm considered one of the mid skill people there is probably an issue. Less mid skill people = harder games for the top tier people.

Tldr we need more firebolts.

I think also part of the problem is the high level players assume that is a blast for the low level folks. Getting jumped over and over and dying to people who are just better than you is no fun. I think also part of the problem is the high level players assume that is a blast for the low level folks. Getting jumped over and over and dying to people who are just better than you is no fun. I learned stuff from those games, but it was a harsh price for my team to pay for me to gain a little knowledge on when to tell when something is warded.

Its like playing 1v1 with a division one college basket ball player. You won't even get a lay-up in there. And you will learn very little. That is how wide the skill gap is between a lot of the players on TL.

If folks are serious about an inhouse league and people playing, there needs to be structure beyond just "everyone sign up and play". That format is doomed to fail and already has before. People need to be realistic. If there are 4-5 high level players and the rest of everyone else is super trench, then maybe those high level players need to accept there is nothing for them to learn in a TL inhouse league. Or there needs to be some level of "not-that-trench" that folks need to obtain before they can play in the inhouse league. Or a tier system between the "trench" and "not trench".

P.S. I didn't use specific MMRs because I didn't want people to get caught up on that. The point is that there are a lot of folks that want to play in an organized league. The key is making the league in a fashion that they can learn and become better.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
aboxcar
Profile Blog Joined May 2013
United States447 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-24 00:00:56
June 24 2014 00:00 GMT
#36
I don't think skill or toxicity has anything to do with it, the times we do play it is completely fine.

The main thing is there is no #hardwork and #dedication from anyone. It takes people who are serious about hosting (and are popular enough to gather others) to show up and sit and play for awhile, and ain't nobody got time for that.

When that is in place, then the casuals like me who want to just show up and play 1 or 2 will do so.
everything that rises must converge
Kupon3ss
Profile Joined May 2008
時の回廊10066 Posts
June 24 2014 01:24 GMT
#37
On June 24 2014 09:00 aboxcar wrote:
I don't think skill or toxicity has anything to do with it, the times we do play it is completely fine.

The main thing is there is no #hardwork and #dedication from anyone. It takes people who are serious about hosting (and are popular enough to gather others) to show up and sit and play for awhile, and ain't nobody got time for that.

When that is in place, then the casuals like me who want to just show up and play 1 or 2 will do so.


this is why we need #fireboltgamer
When in doubt, just believe in yourself and press buttons
pahndah
Profile Joined August 2009
1193 Posts
June 24 2014 02:34 GMT
#38
On June 24 2014 10:24 Kupon3ss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2014 09:00 aboxcar wrote:
I don't think skill or toxicity has anything to do with it, the times we do play it is completely fine.

The main thing is there is no #hardwork and #dedication from anyone. It takes people who are serious about hosting (and are popular enough to gather others) to show up and sit and play for awhile, and ain't nobody got time for that.

When that is in place, then the casuals like me who want to just show up and play 1 or 2 will do so.


this is why we need #fireboltgamer


The hero we need that can make everyone else feel good about their plays.
Jinxed
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States6450 Posts
June 24 2014 03:08 GMT
#39
On June 24 2014 11:34 pahndah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 24 2014 10:24 Kupon3ss wrote:
On June 24 2014 09:00 aboxcar wrote:
I don't think skill or toxicity has anything to do with it, the times we do play it is completely fine.

The main thing is there is no #hardwork and #dedication from anyone. It takes people who are serious about hosting (and are popular enough to gather others) to show up and sit and play for awhile, and ain't nobody got time for that.

When that is in place, then the casuals like me who want to just show up and play 1 or 2 will do so.


this is why we need #fireboltgamer


The hero we need that can make everyone else feel good about their plays.


This is bothering me.

CHANGE TO TIMBERSAW. YOU SHOULD NOT BE A TINKER.

Thank you, carry on now.
LiquidDota Staff"LeLoup is a great name pls undo." -Liquid`Nazgul
Stancel
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Singapore15360 Posts
June 24 2014 03:23 GMT
#40
On June 24 2014 05:51 LeLoup wrote:
Like, the top tier people that play (Rocketbear, Alurr, Beesa to name a few)


Yo LeLoup...

ffxiv enjoyer
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