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The Preseason has started! Join us!
Aight, so I've just been enlightened that I'm a massive dummy and we need to have a major discussion about TLIHs, 'cause there's clearly some demand for it and some of it ain't of the kind one could dismiss on the basis of seasonality of interest in the endeavor. I'm just gonna list some issues alongside a few theories about them and/or my proposed solutions to them, all scrambled in between random thoughts. I'm gonna be trying really hard not to come ahead as a cynical twat, but bear with me anyway please. Parts of this will inevitably turn into a rant on various subjects, but I'm trying to provide some food for thought either way, so if you feel something can be put in a better way, go ahead and talk about it.
Some intro (hi)story. So we have this inhouse league, right, where people are supposed to play Captain's Mode/Draft with other players they somewhat recognize, in a friendly, competitive, but a rather chilled out environment. It's been there since forever as far as I know and I had a great pleasure to join it around last year when it was flourishing the most, a few months before TI3. It was a superb experience - everyone knew each other, we had some enjoyable games (and some #roadtotlih3-worthy) practically every night, the group was tight and its fact of existence was generally accepted as A Good Thing™. It started dying out as soon as the first matches of TI3 began; I remember people watching the first clashes together and trying to get some games going in between/after matches, but the interest in playing started waning as the time frames of broadcasts overlapped with, or should I say completely covered the usual playtimes of inhouses. So fuck it, it died and everybody said, it's always been that way and it will come back.
Now, waiting for it to come back ain't just gonna cut it when apparently even when you try to play just a few games and then the next day you aren't there, it means there will be no games because there's no one to host a lobby, even though there's like five people asking about it in this thread. So here's issue one - EU players seem to be the only ones that are intelligent enough to set up a proper lobby for an inhouse and write a post about it willing to spend some time to sit in a lobby and wait for it to fill up. I don't know why this is even the case, but such seem to be the statistics and during the last iteration, less than a month ago, Firebolt and Alurr were like the only people setting up successful lobbies. I can imagine why people don't wanna start this on their own - the risk of wasting time in lobby, the risk of wasting time in the game, bad experiences, lack of friends, whatever - but in order to get a game going, some commitment has to be made and while I know it's easier to just stop trying, the alternative is to whine about RMM in the QQ thread, and that ain't an alternative to me. A proposition arises - I'm gonna be hosting a few (at least two, three) games each European evening until and a few weeks after TI4, starting next week. I'm also gonna be looking out and asking for people willing to pick up the process with me and keep the inhouses alive and thriving. If I don't show up on a given day without an advanced mention, I'll have to donate a rare for every such day to a cause I'll think about (you're welcome to suggest stuff). Not much, but I'm rather poor in that department anyway.
Jumping straight to issue two - TLIHs ruleset. Or rather a rule. TLIHs had only one single rule everybody interested in playing had to follow. Don't be a dick. It's gone. What happened to it? Why is it gone in the first place? It needs to be brought back as soon as possible.
Honestly though, while I understand this is supposed to be a chilled out environment, you guys wanted to promote it and open it to everyone, yet you've handled it just like AOL in September 1993. There's literally nothing good ever coming from an unregulated popularity, especially on the Internet, so if we are to make it a thing that is supposed to grow in numbers, we should make sure there are certain guidelines for everyone to follow, as strict and tight as needed but as loose as to not make everyone worry about breaking them. Along with that there would be a need for officers that would actually care about making sure the atmosphere isn't being poisoned by random trashtalk or some twats jerking around, doing fuck all when the rest of the team is actually playing to win. Aside from the general atmosphere-related rules, there could also be guidelines regarding the goals we want to reach with TLIHs, netiquette, the format of inhouses and so on.
Now, taking care of dickheads should be a priority when most people playing in TLIHs are hardworking people who cannot be arsed to deal with some pubbies going on a venting spree because whatever. I know this is kinda counterintuitive, since this is DotA and dicks were humongous since the dawn of time around these parts, but we're living in light-hearted times and we don't want anyone to feint from a smallest negative remark now do we*cough* Anyway, I'm pretty sure some got strongly discouraged from committing their time to games knowing there will be people there that are unpleasant and tough to get along with. I wouldn't be bothered much in a usual case, but this refers to pretty much the majority of the core members of the group, and that's just fucking unhealthy in the long run. Like, if this is ever going to get bootstrapped, we have to make sure every player taking part will enjoy their time there equally in social terms, otherwise there will be no one to play with and RMM level of trashtalk always stings weaker. Simply keep it civil.
ixmike's also created a small shitstorm around the subject by posting Spit-Wad's original post from nadota about the future of IHLs in Dota on Reddit of all places. This has brought a massive influx of negativity upon him, ranging from yada yada mean people on the internet to yada yada terrible admins. While some points were valid, it was mostly people whining about each other's attitudes in the open leagues of IXDL. Now, I couldn't care less about all that if it wasn't for a certain point he brought up in the post, the one about the reasons for lack of interest in IHLs, which was attributed to the introduction of RMM. Whoo, shiny number, another to my collection, gonna grind it as high as possible. We all know how that has ended in the majority of cases, but digressions aside, the incentive to organize an inhouse was gone. You've been given an access to a system that can automatically, nearly instantaneously (compared to regular mechanisms) team you up with four other people relatively the same skill level as you, against other five people with similar attributes, with just a click of a button. And it also tells you how good you are! What's not to like? Of course, it turned out that the 'organization' part was lacking heavily and while it was supposed to provide you with better quality games the higher you go, it was rarely working that way in reality. For a lot of people, games are meaningless up to the point where it increases or decreases your epeen-o-meter, so instead of a team game, we have a slugfest where everyone is just worrying about their own ass. I don't have enough experience to say how it looks up high in the 6k bracket, but you can certainly imagine the trench in that regard.
In this case, to survive, we'd need to provide people with something regular RMM doesn't. Basic (planned) features have already been mentioned, but they won't create enough of an attention to pull people away from the queue, simply due to the issues of accessibility and reasoning behind the endeavor. There's also another level to this - if one has to choose between wasting time in a lobby in order to play with a bunch of lowbies or just plain idiots for half an hour and just playing with idiots, the choice is a rather easy one. If people are running around like headless chicken, it won't much differ from an average RMM experience, but the latter doesn't involve potentially waiting twenty minutes for a retardedly imbalanced game. Obviously they can be instructed and tutored, but not everyone has the time or desire to teach 'the basics'. I see that this stands in a stark contrast to some of aforementioned ambitions, but we also gotta think about limiting the player pool in such a way as to allow everyone to enjoy the game instead of having the experienced players grind their way to victory carrying dead weight for fifty minutes. You know this is how it goes and how games can be decided in very early stages just based on the disparity in teams' average skill, so I believe we should address this somehow too, even with a resounding 'it's supposed to be everyone for all and we gotta keep it that way while reaching to better players using other ways'. There's also a matter of just how casual these inhouses are supposed to be; we've always been trying out extraordinary drafts and strategies, with mixed results, but the goal was simple - to win and have fun. My personal goal would be to keep it exactly that way, without removing either of these aspects - winning without having fun leads to exhaustion and waning interest, careless and pointless fun leads to further doubting the reason behind all of it. It can be regulated with appropriate rules or guidelines, but how to formulate them?
There has to be some obvious stuff I missed during writing this, but I'm extremely sleepy right now and since it was on the top of my head for a while now and writing it down and only then thinking about it wouldn't make it any good, I went on with it. I wanna read your thoughts on the subject.
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My take on this is pretty similar to yours, in the sense that it takes forever to get a TLIH running, sitting in lobbies waiting etc. If the waiting didn't pay off(ie a game starts), you wonder what the hell were you doing wasting your time here. That is the major reason for failure imo.
The 2nd thing is inhouses are just going to be unbalanced. At least RMM has a rating system that "somewhat" mitigates that issue(you wont be playing against a 6k as a 2k), but there's no systems that avaliable in TLIH. Therefore, i think TLIH should be for fun only, competitiveness be screwed. All random deathmatch please volvo.
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There needs to be an incentive. A reward for the highest ranked players at the end of a 3 month period or something. Separate it into regular tier <5k mmr IH and a high tier >5k mmr IH. If it gets popular enough, add more divisions like sc2.
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On June 23 2014 11:49 Kishin2 wrote:
There needs to be an incentive. A reward for the highest ranked players at the end of a 3 month period or something. Separate it into regular tier <5k mmr IH and a high tier >5k mmr IH. If it gets popular enough, add more divisions like sc2.
Well how would you regulate the MMR? I could just leave an account at 4.9 and never play on it except for TLIH. I don't play on TLIH but nothing stops somebody else doing that.
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On June 23 2014 14:08 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 11:49 Kishin2 wrote:
There needs to be an incentive. A reward for the highest ranked players at the end of a 3 month period or something. Separate it into regular tier <5k mmr IH and a high tier >5k mmr IH. If it gets popular enough, add more divisions like sc2. Well how would you regulate the MMR? I could just leave an account at 4.9 and never play on it except for TLIH. I don't play on TLIH but nothing stops somebody else doing that.
I suppose this would be covered by the "dont be a dick" rule.
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On June 23 2014 18:11 BobMcJohnson wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 14:08 Yurie wrote:On June 23 2014 11:49 Kishin2 wrote:
There needs to be an incentive. A reward for the highest ranked players at the end of a 3 month period or something. Separate it into regular tier <5k mmr IH and a high tier >5k mmr IH. If it gets popular enough, add more divisions like sc2. Well how would you regulate the MMR? I could just leave an account at 4.9 and never play on it except for TLIH. I don't play on TLIH but nothing stops somebody else doing that. I suppose this would be covered by the "dont be a dick" rule.
If someone tries to hide their identity and actual MMR, it's not easy to realize stuff like this is happening, but should we regulate them based on MMR, then your point is correct, the edge cases would be dealt with based on the premise of having balanced teams.
ALTERNATIVELY, we can commit a bit more time and go with player draft, which in the beginning will be highly skewed due to people not knowing each other, but after a while, once the group is tighter, everybody will know each other's extent of skill, which I'd love to see (in the long run, if someone commits, it creates another incentive to play well, 'cause you might recognize the better captain/team in the future and want to be picked into it), but we gotta adapt.
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Going to give my two cents here as I was an admin at the "original" TLIHs, with an IRC channel with a bot, ranks and stuff like that. I came into the experience with the same mindset as you: to create a familiar place for people of all skill levels with a friendly attitude, basically a "don't be a dick"-rule was the only rule in place. Turns out, it's fucking impossible to maintain.
It all started out nicely but the longer the IHs were open the more assholes came in. And you would not believe the amount of shit people will throw at you for banning them. To give you an example:
Guy joins a game, harasses his teammates. One of his teammates takes screenshots and reports him via the report feature. I give the guy a 3 day ban (which was standard with first offenses). The guy then starts harassing me in PM via IRC, calling me names and accusing me of banning him only because I was friends with the guy who reported him (had never even talked to the guy who reported him). He kept on going and going about how his team was worthless and was just as bad as he was, but he has no way of backing it up. After a while I got fed up with his attitude and told him that if he did not lay off I would permaban him. He kept going and after being more then patient with him again I permabanned him. He then proceeds to post quotes, out of context, in the IRC channel with "nazimods" and so on.
Keep in mind this was one ban on one day. I'd say we had atleast 3-4 bans, varying in length, each day. This was one of the worst cases, sure, but still nothing really out of the ordinary. The reason why the TLIHs are "good" now is because the community is small and everyone knows everyone. If it's made official, again, I'll bet you that the assholes will once again return and find ways of fucking with you.
If you feel like you're up to taking this kind of harass, feel free to start it up. but I would never in a million years put myself in that situation again.
And yes, we did have two "leagues". One "pro" (for players over a certain ranking) and a regular one. Did not help at all.
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On June 23 2014 18:41 Julmust wrote:
Keep in mind this was one ban on one day. I'd say we had atleast 3-4 bans, varying in length, each day. This was one of the worst cases, sure, but still nothing really out of the ordinary. The reason why the TLIHs are "good" now is because the community is small and everyone knows everyone. If it's made official, again, I'll bet you that the assholes will once again return and find ways of fucking with you.
I had exactly the same impression the moment we switched to IXDL client and my opinion just screams against opening it to the public, yet alone advertising it, but maybe this is what we need. On the other hand, I could just start surveying people personally about whether they would be interested in a closed group and we'd just stick to it if we had a stable pool of interested players. All in all, there are people wanting to play and I'd love to try and make TLIHs a regular thing again, to the point where I'm willing to put up with all the dickheads, although I can't quite guarantee I'll be as patient.
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I really enjoyed playing the tlih's but when you switched to the IXDL client I couldn't play anymore. I never got the client working. I kept getting some weird crash everything I tried loading it up. I've only been part of the inhouses for a few months at best but it was one of the most fun i've had in Dota. I didn't even mind waiting 20 minutes for a game to start up.
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
Jumping straight to issue two - TLIHs ruleset. Or rather a rule. TLIHs had only one single rule everybody interested in playing had to follow. Don't be a dick. It's gone. What happened to it? Why is it gone in the first place? It needs to be brought back as soon as possible.
Wait when did this happen?
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On June 24 2014 00:52 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +Jumping straight to issue two - TLIHs ruleset. Or rather a rule. TLIHs had only one single rule everybody interested in playing had to follow. Don't be a dick. It's gone. What happened to it? Why is it gone in the first place? It needs to be brought back as soon as possible. Wait when did this happen?
The modnote is gone. Besides that, I'm pretty sure not everyone can/wants to tell friendly and hostile trashtalk apart.
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If there arent "famous" ppl like Firebolt, Alurr or Rocketbear its impossible to get a game started.
if you got the game started, the other team will be like 4k 4k 6k 6k 6k, while your team will be sth like 5k 5k 3k 2k 2k.
not needed to say, your team gets stomped.
its not the MMR but the experience of the games which realy killed TLIHs for me (and a certain person who was a dick 90% of his time but obv to famous to get punished). there was no chance for the "bad" players to get better and be rewarded for it.
even if you manage to learn some new stuff because the skillgap is so high, its not helping you to win the game because the other team is still way more experienced and organized because of their longer time spend on dota.
so the little players will become sth like a ward-dispenser on the map and the rest have to deal with a 4v5 situations.
(and atm im not even getting the relation of dota-xp <-> real dota-xp into this, or even smurfs)
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Nothing much to contribute besides some of my personal experience.
I joined TLIH on and off roughly 2 years ago and started playing regularly around 3-4months before TI3. The experience was amazing despite me being a complete retard in-game with 400ms ping and playing half asleep at 4am. Everyone was really helpful and friendly. There were some rages every now and then but often time resolved quickly. The hallmark of TLIH during that time was the perfect mix of tryhard and relax plays, where people throw friendly banters and continuously exchange remarks during the games after big plays.
Then iirc, there was a few days when most of the regulars didnt participate, and there were a massive influx of new people joining (DISCLAIMER: i have nothing against newcomers, everyone is welcome, heck I was a newcomer once so..). That was when nobody knows anyone and the games felt very quiet, and rage/flame/trashtalk happened a lot more due to unfriendliness and lack of "important" regulars like Firebolt to moderate. so some of the less regulars like me left for a while while the more regulars also didnt come back.
I feel that what makes TLIH clicks is the friendliness and fun when playing with people you somewhat know. Else it's just similar to pubs but without those shiny items drop and rating pts. We probably need more regulars back to the scene as they have extensive friendlist and can spread the word faster when a lobby is hosted. But I guess people are getting busier nowadays, I am also busy with work that I cant stay up very late to join TLIH during weekdays anymore 
edit: also agree with above. The more new people with unknown skill level we have + less regulars, the harder to balance the team and make it enjoyable for everyone
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
On June 24 2014 00:56 makmeatt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 00:52 Firebolt145 wrote:Jumping straight to issue two - TLIHs ruleset. Or rather a rule. TLIHs had only one single rule everybody interested in playing had to follow. Don't be a dick. It's gone. What happened to it? Why is it gone in the first place? It needs to be brought back as soon as possible. Wait when did this happen? The modnote is gone. Besides that, I'm pretty sure not everyone can/wants to tell friendly and hostile trashtalk apart.
Modnote is gone because it was lost during the transfer to LiquidDota.
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On June 24 2014 01:11 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 00:56 makmeatt wrote:On June 24 2014 00:52 Firebolt145 wrote:Jumping straight to issue two - TLIHs ruleset. Or rather a rule. TLIHs had only one single rule everybody interested in playing had to follow. Don't be a dick. It's gone. What happened to it? Why is it gone in the first place? It needs to be brought back as soon as possible. Wait when did this happen? The modnote is gone. Besides that, I'm pretty sure not everyone can/wants to tell friendly and hostile trashtalk apart. Modnote is gone because it was lost during the transfer to LiquidDota.
I know, I mentioned it 'cause I think reminding people of it constantly is a must.
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On June 24 2014 01:00 Rodberd wrote:
if you got the game started, the other team will be like 4k 4k 6k 6k 6k, while your team will be sth like 5k 5k 3k 2k 2k.
not needed to say, your team gets stomped.
its not the MMR but the experience of the games which realy killed TLIHs for me (and a certain person who was a dick 90% of his time but obv to famous to get punished). there was no chance for the "bad" players to get better and be rewarded for it.
even if you manage to learn some new stuff because the skillgap is so high, its not helping you to win the game because the other team is still way more experienced and organized because of their longer time spend on dota.
so the little players will become sth like a ward-dispenser on the map and the rest have to deal with a 4v5 situations.
(and atm im not even getting the relation of dota-xp <-> real dota-xp into this, or even smurfs)
Yeah, this is how I remember it from the few games I played. I felt pretty lost to be honest, literally had no impact the whole game. I was pretty bad at the time (still am, but even I'm aware how bad it was last time now).
Although everyone was pretty chill and friendly when I played, I had no negative experiences at all in that regard. It's just like you said, it's hard to feel good about a game you can't really do anything in, even if no one else says anything.
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Wall of text i could write this thing in 30 words with broken english ofc.First i agree people should show more patience in lobbies and wait more.Second i dont see any dick in TLIH last dick was rynzer but he is not playing now.The skill gap is closer than ever before.The only problem i see is the number of people, we should bring some friends of us to the IH.It is very early for americans too, they are coming in weekends but they cant the weekdays so i think we should lure more europeans we must change the server for weekdays to EU and see if more people come.
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We should just have the modnote display the time of the next upcoming TLIH session. If people can see that it's a confirmed thing rather than just some guy "thinking he might try to host something tonight", theyre much more likely to show. Games would start late EU evening, where atleast one "well known" member is available.
Actually, while were at it, it would be pretty cool if TLIH's could be integrated into the liquiddota site. Like if you could see lobby status/player count somewhere on the site, and add incentives like gaining LD gold or maybe some equivalent to liquipedia coins. However, I'm not sure such additions are justifiable if you consider the waning interest in TLIH's.
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Are there even any inhouses games happening?
There really are like absolute zero informations anywhere on that site. that might be why nobody plays it, because nobody even knows about it?
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On June 24 2014 04:34 Yoshi- wrote:
Are there even any inhouses games happening?
There really are like absolute zero informations anywhere on that site. that might be why nobody plays it, because nobody even knows about it?
They aren't now. Whoever tries to assemble one, gets discouraged after failing to do it with a short notice. I'm gonna be trying to get a few games every day starting Saturday, we'll see how it goes and what adjustments we'll need to make to get a lobby full.
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So there is one other issue that a lot of people really aren't taking into account unfortunately, and it is something that needs to be brought up I think so that everyone can see all sides of this.
The fact of the matter is that for the better players in TLIH, playing with/against people that aren't very good ranges between a nuisance and irritating.
Like, the top tier people that play (Rocketbear, Alurr, Beesa to name a few) often times would literally have to be either holding the hand of the people that they were playing with, or dragging them entirely to victory. I know multiple occasions where the top players would get frustrated at their teammates simply because the fact of the matter is that they couldn't do their job and teach the new players how to do theirs at the same time. And when you have to do that in the middle of a game with new players on key heroes (seriously putting a new player on an initiatior is just painful sometimes) it's a bit discouraging when you can instead play MM and not have half of those issues.
This isn't to say that TLIH shouldn't be all inclusive. Hell I literally had never played Dota, LoL, or HoN when I first started hanging around the inhouses, but the fact of the matter is that people have to be able to learn on their own and be able to do their job when playing with these others because of the massive difference in skill that can exist in these.
TLIH above all else is a good place to learn how to play proper Dota. But the key to that is that the people have to not only be asking questions to the people around them, but to themselves and figuring out things on their own as well. If we can get newcomers who will do that, I think that would end up easing a lot of the burden that the older players feel when playing and would make it a lot more fun for everyone.
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every time i draft a lineup i have to account for nobody being able to play any of it~
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On June 24 2014 06:11 Kupon3ss wrote:
every time i draft a lineup i have to account for nobody being able to play any of it~
To be perfectly fair, only bravery is required to play your drafts, and it works most of the time.
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Just draft yourself solo offlane Abaddon and carry the game.
I enjoyed most of the TLIHs I played. There was one particularly bad game where someone on my team started spamming GG nonstop from minute 3, and abandoned shortly afterwards when we kept cancelling.
That in itself was fine, but what annoyed me was that the player in question didn't get punished at all. Rodberd talks about this on the previous page, certain people being too famous to get punished. That shouldn't happen.
Of course if we're not using the IXDL client there's no system at all to punish people so that's an issue.
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On June 24 2014 05:51 LeLoup wrote:
So there is one other issue that a lot of people really aren't taking into account unfortunately, and it is something that needs to be brought up I think so that everyone can see all sides of this.
The fact of the matter is that for the better players in TLIH, playing with/against people that aren't very good ranges between a nuisance and irritating.
Like, the top tier people that play (Rocketbear, Alurr, Beesa to name a few) often times would literally have to be either holding the hand of the people that they were playing with, or dragging them entirely to victory. I know multiple occasions where the top players would get frustrated at their teammates simply because the fact of the matter is that they couldn't do their job and teach the new players how to do theirs at the same time. And when you have to do that in the middle of a game with new players on key heroes (seriously putting a new player on an initiatior is just painful sometimes) it's a bit discouraging when you can instead play MM and not have half of those issues.
This isn't to say that TLIH shouldn't be all inclusive. Hell I literally had never played Dota, LoL, or HoN when I first started hanging around the inhouses, but the fact of the matter is that people have to be able to learn on their own and be able to do their job when playing with these others because of the massive difference in skill that can exist in these.
TLIH above all else is a good place to learn how to play proper Dota. But the key to that is that the people have to not only be asking questions to the people around them, but to themselves and figuring out things on their own as well. If we can get newcomers who will do that, I think that would end up easing a lot of the burden that the older players feel when playing and would make it a lot more fun for everyone.
On the other side of this, as one of those players dragging the team down, it is almost impossible to learn when the skill gap is that large. The game is so much "faster" and tighter than what most pub players are used to its really hard to come back from a few mistakes. There are also some language barriers as well.
Also, people's ability to play dota well does not directly translate into their ability to teach dota to newer players. Teaching is a skill and it requires a lot of patience and practice, both of which are not available during a dota match with highly skilled players on both sides. Telling players to "roam and make shit happen" generally is not sufficient.
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Depending on the mood I am in, it's sometimes pretty frustrating trying to teach 4 players + focus on my own gameplay. I don't mind people making mistakes, and I don't mind helping others (even though I probably suck at it). But once I start to focus on way too many things at the same time, I start making mistakes I wouldn't usually do. And I get frustrated, because dying is boring and I don't want to be dead when I shouldn't be t_t
So I get more frustrated by my own play, because of teammates. And depending on mood I might get pretty bitter.
And yes I agree with Plan6, when the skillgap is too big, it's really hard to learn anything from it. It's easier to learn when your opponents are a bit better than you. But when people are a lot better then it doesn't help at all.
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It is the natural problem of having the in house games open to anyone. It's natural for people to be at different levels, but people can't expect the games to just "work out" when you have people from the bottom of the tench playing against people who might be matched up with professional players.
I feel TL has not used the coaching feature at all and it could be a good way to help new players improve. The problem with that is that the player who is coaching has to love to teach. I like to teach and I'm good at it, which is why I train all the new hires at my firm, but I am bad at dota. And thus is the problem, good players want the ball all the time and when you are teaching, you don't get the ball.
Or the higher level players could just suck up their pride and accept that the are playing with some trench ass players and just accept that mistakes will be made.
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The thing is not how wide the skill gap is but the idea that there aren't enough of the mid level players around anymore. I'm still pretty terrible so when I'm considered one of the mid skill people there is probably an issue. Less mid skill people = harder games for the top tier people.
Tldr we need more firebolts.
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On June 24 2014 08:28 LeLoup wrote:
Tldr we need more firebolts.
How's that gonna make it any easier?
+ Show Spoiler +
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i think TL is too large a community for a casual pickup league to make sense
those leagues only work if everyone vaguely knows each other
but TL is so big that chances are the players in the game might as well be random pubs especially with an open system where everyone can join
theres basically no incentive to play such games since without matchmaking the game quality will likely be much worse than ur average matchmade pub game
so the only option i really see working for community of tls size would be a ladder inhouse system with rankings and a semi competitive environment, like ixdl but with stricter rules for flaming and such given tl's culture
but given the toxicity of the general dota community i doubt anyone on tl would want to mod or admin that
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On June 24 2014 08:33 Kraznaya wrote:
i think TL is too large a community for a casual pickup league to make sense
those leagues only work if everyone vaguely knows each other
but TL is so big that chances are the players in the game might as well be random pubs especially with an open system where everyone can join
theres basically no incentive to play such games since without matchmaking the game quality will likely be much worse than ur average matchmade pub game
so the only option i really see working for community of tls size would be a ladder inhouse system with rankings and a semi competitive environment, like ixdl but with stricter rules for flaming and such given tl's culture
but given the toxicity of the general dota community i doubt anyone on tl would want to mod or admin that
We've been through this and I hope everyone has learned their lesson in that regard; although since we will have to somehow set up a stable influx of players in order to make it a sustainable endeavor, we will have to think of a way to bring new people closer or something. And toxicity around here will be dealt with harshly - if no one else will, I will (somehow) take care of it.
I know all this might sound like wishful thinking, but that's where a lot of good things start.
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We tried to have the TLIHN thing for a while for coaching, it worked out ok. Can maybe try to do it again.. It's just really hard to teach from an outsider's perspective rather than when you are ingame with them.
Leloup wrote a pretty accurate post up there ^.
We don't have much pride. I play with anyone who wants to play with me, pm me and you get my steam ID etc. I play with a lot of lower rated people who I find it fun to play with. Seeing mistakes doesn't bother me that much. It's when it gets to the point, where people expect me to help them with literally everything. Which makes me unfocused, and then I make mistakes which I know wouldn't happen. So I don't mind seeing other peoples mistakes, it's my own I get frustrated over. And only when it happens because of lack of focus. Maybe it's selfish, I just prioritize my own enjoyment.
I have helped a lot of people, and I don't mind doing so at all. My "teaching style" is pretty casual and just focus on fundamental mistakes. E.G. If a player wasn't at a fight he should have been, I will point that out. But if he was at that fight, but missed his spells and died. Then it's whatever, shit happens. The idea was right. Which also mean I don't point out 1000 mistakes every game, which some people seem to expect from me. The players who has played with me for a longer time has significantly improved. I just want to have fun as well, not put all my effort into teaching.
Hope this post make sense
On June 24 2014 08:33 Kraznaya wrote:
i think TL is too large a community for a casual pickup league to make sense
TL community =! TLIH community though. The TLIH community is pretty small.
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On June 24 2014 08:28 LeLoup wrote:
The thing is not how wide the skill gap is but the idea that there aren't enough of the mid level players around anymore. I'm still pretty terrible so when I'm considered one of the mid skill people there is probably an issue. Less mid skill people = harder games for the top tier people.
Tldr we need more firebolts.
I think also part of the problem is the high level players assume that is a blast for the low level folks. Getting jumped over and over and dying to people who are just better than you is no fun. I think also part of the problem is the high level players assume that is a blast for the low level folks. Getting jumped over and over and dying to people who are just better than you is no fun. I learned stuff from those games, but it was a harsh price for my team to pay for me to gain a little knowledge on when to tell when something is warded.
Its like playing 1v1 with a division one college basket ball player. You won't even get a lay-up in there. And you will learn very little. That is how wide the skill gap is between a lot of the players on TL.
If folks are serious about an inhouse league and people playing, there needs to be structure beyond just "everyone sign up and play". That format is doomed to fail and already has before. People need to be realistic. If there are 4-5 high level players and the rest of everyone else is super trench, then maybe those high level players need to accept there is nothing for them to learn in a TL inhouse league. Or there needs to be some level of "not-that-trench" that folks need to obtain before they can play in the inhouse league. Or a tier system between the "trench" and "not trench".
P.S. I didn't use specific MMRs because I didn't want people to get caught up on that. The point is that there are a lot of folks that want to play in an organized league. The key is making the league in a fashion that they can learn and become better.
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I don't think skill or toxicity has anything to do with it, the times we do play it is completely fine.
The main thing is there is no #hardwork and #dedication from anyone. It takes people who are serious about hosting (and are popular enough to gather others) to show up and sit and play for awhile, and ain't nobody got time for that.
When that is in place, then the casuals like me who want to just show up and play 1 or 2 will do so.
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On June 24 2014 09:00 aboxcar wrote:
I don't think skill or toxicity has anything to do with it, the times we do play it is completely fine.
The main thing is there is no #hardwork and #dedication from anyone. It takes people who are serious about hosting (and are popular enough to gather others) to show up and sit and play for awhile, and ain't nobody got time for that.
When that is in place, then the casuals like me who want to just show up and play 1 or 2 will do so.
this is why we need #fireboltgamer
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On June 24 2014 10:24 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 09:00 aboxcar wrote:
I don't think skill or toxicity has anything to do with it, the times we do play it is completely fine.
The main thing is there is no #hardwork and #dedication from anyone. It takes people who are serious about hosting (and are popular enough to gather others) to show up and sit and play for awhile, and ain't nobody got time for that.
When that is in place, then the casuals like me who want to just show up and play 1 or 2 will do so. this is why we need #fireboltgamer
The hero we need that can make everyone else feel good about their plays.
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On June 24 2014 11:34 pahndah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 10:24 Kupon3ss wrote:On June 24 2014 09:00 aboxcar wrote:
I don't think skill or toxicity has anything to do with it, the times we do play it is completely fine.
The main thing is there is no #hardwork and #dedication from anyone. It takes people who are serious about hosting (and are popular enough to gather others) to show up and sit and play for awhile, and ain't nobody got time for that.
When that is in place, then the casuals like me who want to just show up and play 1 or 2 will do so. this is why we need #fireboltgamer The hero we need that can make everyone else feel good about their plays.
This is bothering me.
CHANGE TO TIMBERSAW. YOU SHOULD NOT BE A TINKER.
Thank you, carry on now.
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On June 24 2014 05:51 LeLoup wrote:
Like, the top tier people that play (Rocketbear, Alurr, Beesa to name a few)
Yo LeLoup...
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I'm looking for more people to play dota with regularly. I'll sit in a lobby for a while and see if anyone joins. Created now. Will probably give up if some friends come online.
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On June 24 2014 12:08 LeLoup wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 11:34 pahndah wrote:On June 24 2014 10:24 Kupon3ss wrote:On June 24 2014 09:00 aboxcar wrote:
I don't think skill or toxicity has anything to do with it, the times we do play it is completely fine.
The main thing is there is no #hardwork and #dedication from anyone. It takes people who are serious about hosting (and are popular enough to gather others) to show up and sit and play for awhile, and ain't nobody got time for that.
When that is in place, then the casuals like me who want to just show up and play 1 or 2 will do so. this is why we need #fireboltgamer The hero we need that can make everyone else feel good about their plays. This is bothering me. CHANGE TO TIMBERSAW. YOU SHOULD NOT BE A TINKER. Thank you, carry on now.
Its all tinker now. #bandwagon #inthemeta #ophero
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On June 24 2014 12:42 pahndah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 12:08 LeLoup wrote:On June 24 2014 11:34 pahndah wrote:On June 24 2014 10:24 Kupon3ss wrote:On June 24 2014 09:00 aboxcar wrote:
I don't think skill or toxicity has anything to do with it, the times we do play it is completely fine.
The main thing is there is no #hardwork and #dedication from anyone. It takes people who are serious about hosting (and are popular enough to gather others) to show up and sit and play for awhile, and ain't nobody got time for that.
When that is in place, then the casuals like me who want to just show up and play 1 or 2 will do so. this is why we need #fireboltgamer The hero we need that can make everyone else feel good about their plays. This is bothering me. CHANGE TO TIMBERSAW. YOU SHOULD NOT BE A TINKER. Thank you, carry on now. Its all tinker now. #bandwagon #inthemeta #ophero
offlane tinker is legit anyways
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Is there someway of getting an email notification (or something similar) when the when people are looking to start it up? Maybe even simply whenever the tlih thread is bumped. When I don't know what time to look for it, I am not going to be checking all day long. If i got an alert and I wasn't working at that time (which unfortunately is the case a lot of the time living in USW) I would jump on more often than not.
When the guilds were introduced I really expected there would be such an alert through steam, which would have worked as well. As it is I only check tl a few times a day, so I have to be really lucky to happen upon an ongoing tlih.
I tried to start lobbies a few times. I even made a point to do so in the mornings when EU folks should be around, but eventually decided I didn't have personal contact with enough of the regulars to fill a lobby.
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I wish valve would make a IHL or something thatll make RMM more conpetitive and brings the community closer
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28085 Posts
On June 24 2014 12:23 Stancel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 05:51 LeLoup wrote:
Like, the top tier people that play (Rocketbear, Alurr, Beesa to name a few) Yo LeLoup...
maybe if we played on SEA...
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I blame stancel literally killing tlihs
But more seriously skill gap between players can be large as stated by other people above, and it makes for not really interesting games
Also switching to IXDL is jsut annoying (but that might just be me, I hate having to install external programs to do extra stuff).
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Russian Federation4050 Posts
I blame Firebolt.
Someone has to.
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On June 24 2014 20:51 Torte de Lini wrote:
No TLIH in EU ever...
This. :/ I was trying to find EU games when the switch to IXDL client was made but games were very rare. I checked for activity every now and then since with no success. I'd love playing in a chill inhouse league so badly still
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On June 24 2014 20:51 Torte de Lini wrote:
No TLIH in EU ever...
On June 24 2014 21:03 tabbi wrote:
This. :/ I was trying to find EU games when the switch to IXDL client was made but games were very rare. I checked for activity every now and then since with no success. I'd love playing in a chill inhouse league so badly still
We are aware of the issues, hence this blog. And TLIHs were always hosted on USE due to people from all around the world having the best average ping to USE. Sure, US citizens had it better that way, but I literally heard either no complaints at all, or complaints from everyone, which resulted in a rehost.
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EU guys complaining about ping to USE?
heh
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On June 25 2014 00:34 Stancel wrote:
EU guys complaining about ping to USE?
heh
Considering you typically played Puck in these with your ping I'm not sure how anyone could complain.
Though ping doesn't change the stancel dieback.
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Personally I haven't found the skill difference to be a problem. TLIH games have more good players than bad ones and I think thats an important factor as you can tutor individuals instead of having to herd a team
I have to agree that absurd skill differences are hard to mitigate, but I don't think that there are that many TLIHers who are guaranteed to feed. Off the top of my head I can only think of plansix (sorry lol).
TLIH is also pretty close knit and everyone is friendly. There aren't many games where people get mad even if stupid shit happens. IMO this aspect is TLIH's biggest attraction. RMM and IXDL exist but these theoretically "better" games are often a shitty experience.
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
Pretty sure I feed more than Plansix does.
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On June 25 2014 01:47 Veles wrote:
TLIH is also pretty close knit and everyone is friendly. There aren't many games where people get mad even if stupid shit happens. IMO this aspect is TLIH's biggest attraction. RMM and IXDL exist but these theoretically "better" games are often a shitty experience.
I'd personally love to keep it that way, but we'll see how it goes and adapt on the go. Either way, we're gonna begin to try and bootstrap the next season this Saturday, so if you could update the modnote Firebolt, that'd be grand (if any doubts regarding hours arise, I'll be available the entire day to host).
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On June 24 2014 02:38 Alur wrote:
We should just have the modnote display the time of the next upcoming TLIH session. If people can see that it's a confirmed thing rather than just some guy "thinking he might try to host something tonight", theyre much more likely to show. Games would start late EU evening, where atleast one "well known" member is available.
Actually, while were at it, it would be pretty cool if TLIH's could be integrated into the liquiddota site. Like if you could see lobby status/player count somewhere on the site, and add incentives like gaining LD gold or maybe some equivalent to liquipedia coins. However, I'm not sure such additions are justifiable if you consider the waning interest in TLIH's.
The countdown modnote made games happen and I think we should try it again.
Maybe automate it to reset every week or something
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On June 25 2014 01:06 LeLoup wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 00:34 Stancel wrote:
EU guys complaining about ping to USE?
heh Considering you typically played Puck in these with your ping I'm not sure how anyone could complain. Though ping doesn't change the stancel dieback.
it helps if you're used to it
there's people who can't play smash with 60ms lag, i cant play dota if i have 200 or more
remember when aL played on eu and stomped all the eu teams? yea, but they also practiced on EU to get accustomed to the pingg
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The australian aL?
They only played on uswest, and only won on uswest.
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On June 25 2014 01:52 Firebolt145 wrote:
Pretty sure I feed more than Plansix does.
Well you likely play more than in do. That and when I do play TLIH the first time someone drafted me shadow demon, who I had never played, against rocket bear on brew. After than game, my reputation as a feeder was set in stone.
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As someone who has just discovered that TLIH exists, I'm excited to say hi come Saturday 
Is there a steam group I should be joining? Or should I just be in the TLnet teamspeak come Saturday?
Thanks ^_^
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We will post in the TLIH thread here on the site. You could probably join through talking on teamspeak as well. But generally you just wait until someone hosts the lobby and he will post in it the thread. Then you search for "tlih" as password in custom lobbies and choose the one at the top. Expecting it around 19.00-20.00 CET
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On June 25 2014 01:06 LeLoup wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 00:34 Stancel wrote:
EU guys complaining about ping to USE?
heh Considering you typically played Puck in these with your ping I'm not sure how anyone could complain. Though ping doesn't change the stancel dieback.
im sure theres a difference between stancels play on use and his play on usw/sea
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I can't tell if I'm being flamed.
there's practically no difference for me on USE/USW, however I'll shift queue the fuck out of everything in SEA.
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As the creator of the very first tlih and inventor of the whole concept I find its existence obsolete.
I have spoken.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 23 2014 11:49 Kishin2 wrote:
There needs to be an incentive. A reward for the highest ranked players at the end of a 3 month period or something. Separate it into regular tier <5k mmr IH and a high tier >5k mmr IH. If it gets popular enough, add more divisions like sc2.
Pls no tier Seperation, id never play tlih again
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28085 Posts
Yeah cause we would have 5k tier, below 5k tier, and then Targe tier right...
Then Firebolt tier.
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Making it happen tonight guys, hope people are joining
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On June 27 2014 19:32 TheEmulator wrote:
Yeah cause we would have 5k tier, below 5k tier, and then Targe tier right...
Then Feederbolt tier.
FTFY
Is ok. I'd probably be with you Targe, I'm pretty terrible. We could 1v1 all night instead.
...somehow that doesn't sound quite right.
Anyway...I'll come along tonight if I get home in time and I manage to remember my TL DOTA2 account password (as opposed to my screw about with friends account).
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On June 27 2014 22:19 DrPandaPhD wrote:
Making it happen tonight guys, hope people are joining
Yay it's friday night so i will hop on.
By the way Chopper what is your playing account now? Easier if someone notify me when lobby is up than constantly refresh thread ^^
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I'd just like to say that while I've only played a couple of games with you guys, both of those were really good fun. And despite me being the worst player in the game by a significant margin, everyone on my team was forgiving of my many mistakes, and willing to give me advice when it was needed. I'd love to play more with you lot, so yeah :D Fun times indeed. I leave work in 30 minutes or so, so I'll be back home in time for tonight's games - hopefully I'll come join in with you!
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Lalalaland34486 Posts
I don't know why I get flamed so much.
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On June 28 2014 00:13 Firebolt145 wrote:
I don't know why I get flamed so much.
Maybe it's cause you play with exort?
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
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On June 28 2014 00:13 makmeatt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2014 00:13 Firebolt145 wrote:
I don't know why I get flamed so much. Maybe it's cause you play with exort?
If you blackmail him into playing Wex, would that be exortion?
Bad puns, ho! xD
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Played 1 time, the experience was not enjoyable
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On June 28 2014 00:13 Firebolt145 wrote:
I don't know why I get flamed so much.
It's a term of endearment!
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I really want to play inhouse games, but even though I always check to see if they're up when I go on dota, I have literally never seen an open lobby...
That being said, I'm awful, so it's probably a good thing none of you have ever had to put up with me.
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EPT
