|
hey guys, im looking for some possible advice/experience from those of you who have been really into gaming, or any specific obsession, (specifically bw in my case) and gone on to lead fulfilling professional lives as well. So far ive had limited success with post secondary, and although i value knowledge and dont see myself as a hands-on grunt type of guy, thats what ive ended up doing for an unsatisfyingly long period of my adult life.
my problem i guess is that i lack motivation to pursue a specific field of education, maybe because i expect too much of it or dont know enough about whats out there. I spend a lot of time thinking about bw strategy, about how various builds interact with eachother and analyzing various plays for weakness and shit like that but somehow dont see school in the same way. Maybe its that i feel some sense of value in the originality of my thought process in regards to broodwar, as if im breaking new ground and achieving something, but really im only playing a computer game. I should concentrate on something that makes me money, right? because thats what matters in the real world. somehow i dont care about enough about that at the moment to change my habits even though ive never felt like ive had enough money. I have an addictive personality, and generally have only a few select interests at a time which im passionate about, most other things i dont really care too much about. so in order for me to accept school and succeed at it i think i need to obsess about it the same way i do about broodwar. i hear about various peoples experiences going through school and i think, why would i want to go through what that person is doing, it sounds like voluntary hell. and then what you get after is just a bigger paycheck. who finds satisfaction in their career? how do you do it, and differentiate it from satisfaction in your hobbies? The way it seems to me is that most people tolerate their jobs, and then concentrate on whats actually important to them individually after work, but to me thats a smothered existence, one i dont look forward to living. Id like to believe that theres a way to live the saying "love your job, and youll never work a day in order life", but i havent found it so far.
Ive considered two main post secondary fields - engineering and psychology. Engineering because of my logical/analytical style of thinking, and psychology because i have a lot of questions about the mind and what makes people happy, as i am not. I would probably be good at engineering, but ive never had enthusiasm to learn about it. i have no references for its relevance to my life, so its just another job. Im not sure how good id be at psychology - its possible id be as good as the effort i put into it, as with anything. psychology is more interesting than engineering, but the real world applications are dubious. I could counsel people - sure, helping people makes me feel good, but i dont envision that position as worth the many years of school required for it. giving people advice, or teaching is appealing if i communicate knowledge that i have gained on my own, not spouting a standard curriculum or doctrine. maybe i should go into academia to further pursue knowledge..but knowledge in what field? my current field is broodwar. i enjoy figuring out its intricacies more than learning about anything else, but as it is only a computer game im also left with a feeling of emptiness and dissatisfaction after stepping back and realizing that nobody really cares except for me.
so if youve managed to read this far, i would appreciate feedback from people who are really satisfied with their life and why that is, specifically in regards to school vs gaming. Or even those who arent so satisfied but have some perspective to offer..its true that as you get older, video games can lose their appeal as you concentrate more on fulfilling personal relationships. maybe i just dont have enough of those fulfilling personal relationships, but i dont make much of an effort to pursue them because i feel like i want to build myself more than share with other people ; i dont really have a lot to share at the moment. but build myself into what, is the question? I lack a vision of a better future
|
i'm about to graduate with a triple major in finance/accounting/economics, which i chose because i heard a lot of bw pros found it easy to retool into investment banking.. i found this to be pretty true, a lot of the stuff you think about in broodwar is very very applicable in the real world, you just need to keep your mind open and try to find avenues for you to infuse your BW knowledge into your education to save you time or give you an advantage. in my case, i hardly every went to class because i eventually got so good at looking at higher level problems and thinking "well how would i solve this in BW," and typically the logical procedures for answering questions in BW was identical to finance/accounting/econ. engineering is similar from what i understand of it, although i've only experience lower level engineering classes through friends/gfs.
in terms of my majors, i think any thinking b+/a- bw player could retool their knowledge to breeze through all three of my majors without much issue, although you would have to know a fair bit of calculus and programming on the side to deal with modeling and stuff like that.
to your question about happiness: you might ask why i stuck with these majors if its so easy? well, broodwar only goes so far, and eventually you'll realize that there are hard constraints on strategy once you hit the top of apm as well as strategy.. i figure once i master BW completely and get bored of it i can always delve more heavily into investment banking, which has more expansive and complex strategy (albeit its not as fast paced as broodwar). tldr, your career should offer you a greater challenge, BW doesn't last forever with a growing mind
|
On April 05 2014 08:39 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
I spend a lot of time thinking about bw strategy, about how various builds interact with eachother and analyzing various plays for weakness and shit like that
This sounds like a really good thought process for computer hackers. Would that be a career path you would be interested in? Right now penetration testers and security researchers are in huge demand due to computer software and hardware security being incredibly weak right now, and a lack of people with expertise in those areas. This job is awesome because you essentially spend 40+ hours a week playing a very elaborate and open ended puzzle game.
Somewhat relevant:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2140420/5yearold-hacks-xbox-becomes-microsoft-security-researcher.html
|
I'm going to be honest with you, I recently graduated college and I really regret wasting so much of my time playing Broodwar when I could have been investing those resources in more productive ways. Sure, I got to C+ and had a lot of fun times in the game and made great online friends, but I have nothing to show for any of that in the real world. Just think about what you're doing before you do it. You can always play starcraft or do whatever you enjoy, but it should remain a hobby or leisure activity and nothing more (meaning you do these things to "unwind" and relax when not busy with school/work). It's about setting priorities and looking at the big picture.
|
On April 05 2014 08:39 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
hey guys, im looking for some possible advice/experience from those of you who have been really into gaming, or any specific obsession, (specifically bw in my case) and gone on to lead fulfilling professional lives as well.
Well, I'm not leading a fulfilling professional life just yet - but I'm working this summer as a software developer, finishing the second year of software engineering, and it feels like I've finally found the thing I'm looking for. And I've been obsessed with video games for my entire life - that's why I'm in this degree. So I feel like I have something relevant to say ^^
I have an addictive personality, and generally have only a few select interests at a time which im passionate about, most other things i dont really care too much about. so in order for me to accept school and succeed at it i think i need to obsess about it the same way i do about broodwar.
This sounds so much like me it hurts. I have five thousand hours of Dota 2 played, and that's after I gave up on my hundred-some days of WoW with much regret and sorrow. And no matter what I'm interested in, it totally eclipses everything else.
who finds satisfaction in their career? how do you do it, and differentiate it from satisfaction in your hobbies? The way it seems to me is that most people tolerate their jobs, and then concentrate on whats actually important to them individually after work, but to me thats a smothered existence, one i dont look forward to living. Id like to believe that theres a way to live the saying "love your job, and youll never work a day in order life", but i havent found it so far.
I don't differentiate it from satisfaction in my hobbies - I found a way to make my hobbies make me money. I'm going into game development because I feel exactly the same way as you do about games. If it were just going to be a job, I would feel like you feel - trapped and pointless.
Ive considered two main post secondary fields - engineering and psychology. Engineering because of my logical/analytical style of thinking, and psychology because i have a lot of questions about the mind and what makes people happy, as i am not. I would probably be good at engineering, but ive never had enthusiasm to learn about it. i have no references for its relevance to my life, so its just another job.
I won't say anything about psych because I don't know - but have you considered software engineering, or computer science? You sound like you have the kind of mind that would be perfect for it, honestly - and I don't want to claim to know what you like or what you will like, but if you haven't thought about it, I think you should.
so if youve managed to read this far, i would appreciate feedback from people who are really satisfied with their life and why that is, specifically in regards to school vs gaming. Or even those who arent so satisfied but have some perspective to offer..its true that as you get older, video games can lose their appeal as you concentrate more on fulfilling personal relationships. maybe i just dont have enough of those fulfilling personal relationships, but i dont make much of an effort to pursue them because i feel like i want to build myself more than share with other people ; i dont really have a lot to share at the moment. but build myself into what, is the question? I lack a vision of a better future
Find a way to make the things you love make money for you. I'm not exactly an expert - but I think that has to be the only way.
|
Engineering...lots of jobs for engineers when you graduate.
|
Comp science baybeeeeeee, plus penetration testing specifically like Chairman Ray said. But then I say that because it's what I do and enjoy, no guarantees that you will. A lot of good SC players end up playing poker and computer science/programming, seems to have a similar skill set/mindset.
|
hey you should start doing fast arbiter build and stuff
gives you more build variety
|
@Endymion may I ask what your BW aka/rank was? this is the first ive heard of investment banking being a good transition from starcraft at a high level
@Chairman Ray/Birdie you guys both recommend computer science, what inspired you to start in that subject? I understand the problem solving aspect may be similar, but do you have any motivating goals or visions that keep you going? For example, if you get better at bw you can win tournaments and show ur the top dog, so thats besides just enjoying the challenge of problem solving within the game - its for a competitive reason. I think ego is a big reason why i play bw..
@Cyx. thanks for the detailed reply, good to hear youre happy with school so far. Im a bit confused as to how software engineering became a hobby of yours though, when previously youd only play one game at a time. Do you still game?
@both I also considered developing games at one point because I enjoyed playing them, but I dismissed it fairly quickly because it seemed they are two different things. When playing starcraft, I develop skills and knowledge, triggers for what i should do if/when certain shit happens with the intention that these lead to my becoming a top player and i guess feeling good about myself because i can outsmart/outplay many other top players online. Its a huge driving factor for me to continue playing if i know im winning, or going to be, at a high level, something that i dont see in school/careers. You just do what other people want from you, theres no distinctive individual accomplishment that im aware of. Is this important to you guys too? If so how do you get the same feelings professionally?
|
On April 06 2014 11:19 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
@Endymion may I ask what your BW aka/rank was? this is the first ive heard of investment banking being a good transition from starcraft at a high level
I am a top100gm on NA and all I have to say is I got there through a good work ethic (which school should teach you). A good work ethic and staying committed should allow you to be successful in almost all areas of life.
And I can understand the investment banking transition, I used the same approach to l earning a strategy and modifying it to find some moderate success in stocks (outperformed top 20 hedge fund managers in 2012 in ROI) all because I had a plan and I stuck to it (grinding ladder), and then I did a lot of research (learning strategies from pro vods)
|
On April 06 2014 11:19 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
@Cyx. thanks for the detailed reply, good to hear youre happy with school so far. Im a bit confused as to how software engineering became a hobby of yours though, when previously youd only play one game at a time. Do you still game?
All the time... my biggest problem with school is convincing myself to stop playing dota for long enough to study ^^ And it came up slow, to be honest - I was a bit of a hobby programmer in high school (learned a bit of Python in grade ten or something) but I never really got into it at all until I got kicked out of engineering school the first time around, after not really knowing what I wanted to do for two years and just wasting a lot of time. Then I had a year off, and nothing to do but work as a waiter and play video games, and I just decided to give it a bit of a serious try because I really loved games and I couldn't imagine myself doing something that wasn't at least related to them.
@both I also considered developing games at one point because I enjoyed playing them, but I dismissed it fairly quickly because it seemed they are two different things. When playing starcraft, I develop skills and knowledge, triggers for what i should do if/when certain shit happens with the intention that these lead to my becoming a top player and i guess feeling good about myself because i can outsmart/outplay many other top players online. Its a huge driving factor for me to continue playing if i know im winning, or going to be, at a high level, something that i dont see in school/careers. You just do what other people want from you, theres no distinctive individual accomplishment that im aware of. Is this important to you guys too? If so how do you get the same feelings professionally?
I'm the same way - I love winning. More than anything. I guess I've just kind of started to think about my career the same way - I'm not going to be happy until everyone knows my name, and knows that I'm one of the best game developers in the world. It's a longer-term competition, and your goals and progress aren't quite so concrete, but you can still fuel it with that drive if you think about it that way. Trust me, I know - it's the thing that brought me from a 1.7 GPA that got kicked out of university to a 3.7 that's going to put me on the dean's list this year with professors pushing me to try for research grants.
And I don't think you're right when you say there's no distinctive individual accomplishment - even in school, it's definitely possible to go above and beyond your peers (though maybe I'm a bit biased on that since my engineering school is really competitive GPA-wise - the higher GPAs get to pick their program first, then lower GPAs get stuck in whatever is left), and then once you're in industry, your career is what you make it. If you don't want to work for someone else, don't - one of the most competitively fulfilling things in the world by all accounts is starting your own business, and that's what I'm planning on doing.
Also, keep playing games! Just because you're in school or working somewhere, and you're focusing on those long-term, nebulous goals, doesn't mean you can't get your fix with a couple hours of BW every night if you want to. I still play twenty hours of Dota a week - it helps keep me going.
Good luck with whatever you do find =D
|
It's not BW that has a strong correlation with real world, it's the work ethics that's required to be good at BW that is valuable. If you aren't willing to apply your work ethics towards your life outside of the game, there is no such thing as a direct transfer of skills between BW and anything, and this even includes SC2.
Pragmatically speaking, Engineering and Comp Sci are pretty good fields to be in, as that's where a lot (most?) of the jobs are. Most of the subjects you learn in school will be useless when you find a job, but it will teach you about critical thinking, problem solving, work ethics, and all that stuff that you've probably categorized as 'useless', and it will be important later on in life.
Basically, to sum all that up, if you work hard, you are more likely to succeed. I can't remember who said this, but basically someone said Jaedong and Flash would be amazing at anything they do, because they've got amazing work ethics.
Also, I'm just going to systematically say no to "BW similar to investment banking" (whatever that even means). I can maybe agree with statement if investment banking means day trading (which is are completely different things btw) as that's much more subjective. Working at big investment firm (IBD or trading desk) is all grunt work for the first X years, and working as a quant is much more maths and programming than BW, to the point that BW is probably negligible.
And also, playing video games is a 'waste of time' in a sense that it doesn't really help you. There is an element of critical thinking, yada yada yada, but it's like practising BW to get better at SC2, there are better and more effective ways to do it. In the end, it is just entertainment.
|
On April 06 2014 11:19 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
@Chairman Ray/Birdie you guys both recommend computer science, what inspired you to start in that subject? I understand the problem solving aspect may be similar, but do you have any motivating goals or visions that keep you going? For example, if you get better at bw you can win tournaments and show ur the top dog, so thats besides just enjoying the challenge of problem solving within the game - its for a competitive reason. I think ego is a big reason why i play bw..
If you enjoy competition, there are a lot of computer hacking competitions such as Pwn2Own and CSAW, which have amazing cash prizes and publicity.
|
On April 07 2014 07:47 Cambium wrote:
Also, I'm just going to systematically say no to "BW similar to investment banking" (whatever that even means). I can maybe agree with statement if investment banking means day trading (which is are completely different things btw) as that's much more subjective. Working at big investment firm (IBD or trading desk) is all grunt work for the first X years, and working as a quant is much more maths and programming than BW, to the point that BW is probably negligible.
And also, playing video games is a 'waste of time' in a sense that it doesn't really help you. There is an element of critical thinking, yada yada yada, but it's like practising BW to get better at SC2, there are better and more effective ways to do it. In the end, it is just entertainment.
I flat out just think this is a bad attitude to have.. To clarify, what i meant by investment banking would be mainly mergers/acquisitions, debt/equity syndication, and just more general investment research (be it equity debt or derivatives). Starcraft trains multiple skills that are useful in these three branches of ibanking (and any kind of finance really):
1) Foresight and the ability to see general trends based on past and current information to predict future events.
Starcraft: scouting an enemy, learning his playstyle, knowing where to look specifically to get scouting information, not being emotionally invested in your build so that you can make more accurate decisions
ibanking: knowing what to look for in a given industry, knowing how other industries impact a target industry, general financial statement mobility, the ability to look past good/bad fiscal periods and remain unbiased
2) The ability to identify important factors and weight each factor dynamically depending on the current situation
Starcraft: realizing that when you're getting bunker rushed while 12hatching that gas won't be useful to you because you'll be dead by the time that you'll be able to utilize the gas, yet also realizing that once you hold of the bunker rush gas will become more important than minerals (relatively) because you'll have more mobility to use it later on in the game. this is incredibly hard for "normal people" to understand, and it ties a lot into the time value of money
ibanking: looking at a company that's in a liquidity crunch and knowing that its ability to fulfill its credit obligations is more important in the next year than its ability to generate profits in 5 years. similarly, liquidity is mostly only important if you're about to default, same with how building sunkens is only important if you're about to lose your expansion in a bunker rush, otherwise, gas/profits are probably a better idea.
3) The ability to dynamically adapt and react to constantly changing variables
Starcraft: oh shit, i've never seen this build before, carriers and scouts?! what counters that?! time to drastically change my playstyle to react to this crazy and random event that i've never seen before while still keeping mechanics in mind
ibanking: oh shit, our benefactors' mortgage back security portfolios are crashing and the entire economy is about to crash? time to react to this crazy and random event that no one has ever seen before while still keeping shareholders and stakeholders in mind.
While I agree that a lot of this is "critically thinking," i think people are drastically undervaluing just how much critical thinking starcraft teaches you.. and even if you think that i'm completely wrong and an idiot, what do you stand to gain by thinking that starcraft is just entertainment? why not gain value from something that you've spent so much time on, and try to realize synergies that it brings with your real life?
This is kinda off topic, but OP whenever I've interviewed be it in finance or whatever, video games have nearly always come up for one reason or another. People are always really interested in it, and I generally talk about the same things that i've mentioned in this post here, and they're generally thrilled to hear it. I literally got my last internship mostly on the basis that I was a starcraft player, one of the presidents on the executive team interviewing me thought that there was a lot that starcraft players had to offer. She also told me to tell anyone interviewing me about it, and not to be afraid of our perceived social stigma.
it's the same as what day9 said in his daily #100 (i think? maybe it was a different video): "nothing is cooler than loving the things that you do." the same holds in interviewing, getting jobs, getting girls, getting dissertation recommendations, whatever. don't have a bad attitude and you'll be fine!
|
Thats a really good point Endymion in your last paragraphs - I love what I do but i dont like to talk about it because if i dont have anything else under my belt thats more "socially acceptable" to normalize my image, i fear getting stigmatized. Playing starcraft is part of my identity but if the rest of it isnt up to par, starcraft looks like a problem instead of a benefit. So the solution is to love everything I do, to love my life and love myself. At the moment I only love specific parts of my life, and the other parts that need improvement drag my whole existence down. Thanks for the positive message
Im wondering if you still game as well..you said once you master broodwar completely..so not yet? How would you have time, with a triple major lol. So that must mean that since you love what you do, you love finance/accounting/econ more than you love broodwar, or at least an equal amount. Did you feel you were at a satisfactory level before you quit, and that you had little left to learn? Id really like to know, especially if this is the case, what your previous rank was.
I always feel there is more to learn in broodwar - even though I am at a high level, Im working on unanswered questions that would take my game to the next level. Maybe if I felt there was nothing left to learn I would want to branch out into other things (school) more, but the way it is im only focused on these questions now and i really hate shifting focus when im not finished. If I felt I had conquered bw...maybe I have way too high of a standard for myself. Im not sure if other people are content when they reach a certain level for themselves, but for me my ego is so huge that im not satisfied until I am the #1 foreigner, and translated my potential into results. I actually think becoming the #1 foreigner in bw is easier than undertaking a new venture in post secondary education. I have all the puzzle pieces to bw in front of me, I just have to put them together in the right way. School and professional life on the other hand is mostly unknown and thats pretty scary..
On a slightly different note, NeuroticPsychosis you said earlier that you view your time spent playing starcraft as a waste because you could have been more productive. You said to look at the big picture. I am trying to look at the big picture, but Im having difficulty. What is the big picture to you? (and everyone else who reads this too if you want to contribute) School/Work are important to you, but why? what in school/work gives you pleasure that is more valuable to you than the pleasure you gain from starcraft? I gain a lot of pleasure from playing bw, more so than I have references for or can imagine ever gaining from work or school. The reason im not completely happy with it is because broodwar doesnt pay the bills, and its not socially recognized as being a respectable way to spend your time, like work and school are. Work and school give you money, and social status for your ability to make money, or the ability to contribute to society by allowing other people to make money, or live a more pleasurable existence in some form or other. Im not materialistic and dont give a fuck about money other than for security and basic needs. Status is important but I dont like being recognized for something I dont give a fuck about, aka money. Its what you did to achieve your wealth that is important to me, the capability that is demonstrated. But to achieve wealth in the first place seems like a hollow goal. If I have no use for being wealthy, besides demonstrating that I am an outstanding human being capable of achieving wealth, I wont be living for the journey, just the destination. Which is how I view school at the moment.
I kind of rambled on there..ran out of time and gtg but i might post later
|
On April 09 2014 08:41 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
Thats a really good point Endymion in your last paragraphs - I love what I do but i dont like to talk about it because if i dont have anything else under my belt thats more "socially acceptable" to normalize my image, i fear getting stigmatized. Playing starcraft is part of my identity but if the rest of it isnt up to par, starcraft looks like a problem instead of a benefit. So the solution is to love everything I do, to love my life and love myself. At the moment I only love specific parts of my life, and the other parts that need improvement drag my whole existence down. Thanks for the positive message
Im wondering if you still game as well..you said once you master broodwar completely..so not yet? How would you have time, with a triple major lol. So that must mean that since you love what you do, you love finance/accounting/econ more than you love broodwar, or at least an equal amount. Did you feel you were at a satisfactory level before you quit, and that you had little left to learn? Id really like to know, especially if this is the case, what your previous rank was.
I always feel there is more to learn in broodwar - even though I am at a high level, Im working on unanswered questions that would take my game to the next level. Maybe if I felt there was nothing left to learn I would want to branch out into other things (school) more, but the way it is im only focused on these questions now and i really hate shifting focus when im not finished. If I felt I had conquered bw...maybe I have way too high of a standard for myself. Im not sure if other people are content when they reach a certain level for themselves, but for me my ego is so huge that im not satisfied until I am the #1 foreigner, and translated my potential into results. I actually think becoming the #1 foreigner in bw is easier than undertaking a new venture in post secondary education. I have all the puzzle pieces to bw in front of me, I just have to put them together in the right way. School and professional life on the other hand is mostly unknown and thats pretty scary..
yeah i still play games all the time, like i said i'm still in university.. no, i haven't mastered brood war completely, that's why i love playing it so much, it's the hardest game on the planet. i'm pretty active though, i practice with a few 1250 elo fish players and i even took a game off of zero at one point, although i'm playing no where near as much as what actual pro or top tier players do at this point (i got out all of my mechanics 'grinding' in 2011 when i was playing sc2 a lot so i'm at the point in BW where it's just fun to play and not a chore to have to constantly worry about apm [unless the player is like 400/450+ apm]).
in terms of school, like i said i haven't gone to many lectures because the exams and assignments aren't very difficult, so i really haven't had to "quit" as a result of my workload (although personal lives are much more deadly to playing). i lso play bw for a different reason than i go to school. i play bw because i think it's fun and i love thinking about it, and i also love the korean mentality of completely mastering it. school on the other hand is much more of a "well i have an obligation to do this," because bw can't put food on the table for me and also because i like having different things to do during the day, it's much more fun to be a rounded person than to just funnel yourself into one thing. And that's the reason that i try so hard to find overlaps between my interests, so that i can optimize whatever i'm doing to save time and do what i want to do instead of relearning the same things over and over.
with regard to if i thought my expertise with BW was satisfactory, i would say yeah sure why not, although i never really went into it with any goals in mind. i knew that BW wouldn't be able to give me eternal happiness or a career or whatever, i just played it because i really enjoyed the competition, it allowed me to focus and apply myself at a time in my life when everything else fell short difficulty wise (highschool). also, while i came to BW for the competition, i quickly realized that the majority of BW players were awesome, and as a result the majority of my best friends played BW.
i wouldn't feel too worried, i think you might just be over thinking it. whatever you choose to do you'll probably succeed because like other people have said you're more than likely hardworking
|
Hey there friend.
I saw this post and I wanted to reply to it, though I know that's a bit weird given that this post is ancient.
Look man, at the end of the day knowing that matters to you is what's important. The truth is, it's all equally arbitrary man. A buddy of mine's passion is magic the gathering. Is that any less noble than seeking to make money for the sake of it? At the end of the day nope, it's really not.
Plus, honestly some people will just never be satisfied. Fuck, like was going the distance anyway: I've got one semester left then my undergrad is done. But guess what? Still my GPA isn't high enough for some people, or I'm not trying hard enough for some people, or some people claim I won't be making enough money down the road (even though I'm already making way more money than some people at the job I have while doing all this).
So fuck it. At the end of the day man you gotta do you. I mean you won the Teamliquid Starleague dude. That's something nobody can take away from you.
Anyways... yeah man. I dunno, just had a rough night here and felt like reaching out to somebody who's been in my shoes.
Yep. God breakups suck. But at least I can wear my Teamliquid shirt and hoodie again without pissing somebody off haha. Life is full of cruel ironies man. You seem like a good dude.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
