EPTCrash and Burn: I'm done waiting - Page 7
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DwmC_Foefen
Belgium2186 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On March 12 2014 22:50 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: He should say it to his team and only his team. I see no benefit and see this as detrimental to the team making this public. Edit: Might as well kick Fluff and add 1437 to Liquid. You can see from Behind the Horse TC was never comfortable being the leader cause of Fluff always wanting to dictate stuff. I'd rather have 1437 play the 4 role and have TC properly captain for the first time. From this blog it sounds like the team is suffering from lack of trust in each other - and that lack of trust was actually valid if fluff wasn't putting in a full commitment because he thought they would fail without him as "leader". Actually I'm not entirely sure what he means by "leader." Is it making in-game calls or choosing engagements? Because that seems like something much more important but I also don't see any reason you need a formal role where someone is chosen to do that, as opposed to having the team actually communicate. And anyway, this blog seems to talk more about drafting as the formal sign of being the team leader. Like, changing the drafter can only solve one problem - bad drafts. Liquid has not been losing because of bad drafts, at least most of the time. | ||
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YourGoodFriend
United States2197 Posts
On March 12 2014 23:19 Saechiis wrote: While that is a valid concern you have to take into account that a team's atmosphere and people personal issues affect their play. I can imagine it being hard to play to your full potential when you feel constant pressure and helplessness. I'm much like Fluff in terms of being introverted yet competetive, striving for the best, constant self-consciousness and thought. I have a hard time handling my parents' expectations, let alone having to hold TL's banners in a super competetive (judgmental) environment AND one's own relentless expectation. I'd really love to see an actual team. Despite Liquid having a teddybear status in esports, with the nature of online gaming and the people it attracts, even their family isn't that much of a team. Being physically remote from another makes it really hard to bond and online culture isn't very well suited to sharing actual thoughts. When there's no cohestion or common purpose there's too much room for small annoyances to grow and interfere with the simplest of things. Whenever a new team is formed the members should really be thrown out in the forest together for a week to figure it out themselves. As it is though, I believe there's no ways to fund such a thing besides donations, which creates unwanted pressure. @Fluff I think there's much to be positive about, it's impressive you'd care so much that you write such a vulnerable piece. That non-bullshit modus is very key to getting what you want I think. Agreed its one on the reason's I am really excited about Zephyer, the idea of learning to be friends and teammates is essential. Look at the best teams (NAVI, and Alliance) Dendi and Puppy have been friends for years and you can tell that they love to play together. Same for Akke and Loda being able to understand each other and enjoy each other goes a long way, even as far as to help you mechanically (hitting spells) confidence changes things a ton. | ||
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ScarPe
Germany392 Posts
On March 12 2014 23:21 ArhK wrote: No offense, but after reading it I had to find out how old Liquid Fluff is. I feel sorry that he isn't feeling well, but this blog is incredibly immature and childish. I don't want to judge, but I feel like Fluff doesn't have the slightest idea about how real life with a team oriented job works. All I see in this blog post is some sort of emo self pity, "I am a great leader but no one understands me....". From the blog ; "I'm a strong person, but I'm also someone who demands respect and trust". There lies the problem, in real life you never demand respect and trust, you fucking EARN IT. ### THIS ### after i have read this, i can tell you, that you shouldnt lead that team at all. go next door to the buisnessman, shopkeeper or whatever and ask him, how he leads his employees... it will come out that sth like: "i am highly empathetic and i always mind what my team does" will not get you anywhere near the top tiers. you have to reach the balance between what you need to do to achieve your goal and what your teammates want. and then everyone has to be totally fine with the outcome. the leader/boss sets the tone and everyone has to have the faith in you, that you will get him to that point you guys want to reach: if there is anyone who has concerns about this, you have to talk to him and make a clear standpoint. is he still concerned, he has to leave. an guess what? thats what i read there: you tried to play as a team, but you had a lot of concerns about how its done. i mean you still gave your best but in your mind there was always that little devil that told you: "this is wrong". look at any top tier team that has continously good results. everyone of them has faith in himself and in his teammates. it is NEVER like "we maybe win like this, but i would have done it differently" DO IT, dont just talk about it: DO! IT! thats your problem, you talk and talk and talk, but i think you never REALLY thought about discussing your concerns with your team and take the necessary consequences if you have the feeling, that this is not gonna work for you. | ||
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DaiWales
United Kingdom94 Posts
I understand Fluff's frustrations. As a team captain myself I've had to deal with many issues both in the game and out of the game, and when you're losing it's a hundred times worse. I can only imagine how bad it is to see your team humiliated almost every day when they play, and in those days you need someone to stand up and say 'bad day at the office; let's work hard tomorrow'. TC's interview was abject and depressing. Even the studio was asking who's leading the team and if Liquid are going to bounce back. TC just sat there and let them rip in to the team, without once sticking up for everyone and saying 'hey, we're all good players, but we need to sort this drafting out, and we will, so stick with us'. Liquid are one of the best supported teams in the world, completely contrary to their performances. They do need a captain to take control and tell everyone to STFU and listen. Their drafts are not utilising the current meta correctly, and they're being swiftly punished for it. Whether than captain should be Fluff is another question. It will only work if the rest of the team back down and relax, and let Fluff take control. I just don't think they would after this blog post, so I'm expecting a particular announcement soon... | ||
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DevilofDeath
United States73 Posts
You guys got 2-0'd against EG this weekend and it would be the shittiest excuse to say "Arteezy is the best player in the world and their team is streaking hot, nothing we can do about it." That is absolute bullshit. You guys have been around long enough to be able to work out your differences and be the best team in NA right now. It pains me to watch you guys struggle and I do believe you would not get an International invite right now. Hell it is hard to imagine C9, EG and Liquid all getting into TI4. Make the leadership changes, get into the others' faces when you don't win a game even if it is just a regular ranked game. There is absolutely no reason for you guys to feel like "OK we've done it, can't get better than we are". Treat every game like it's a finals match for the money and try to dominate every game. And those who don't take it as seriously should be removed from the team because they're not doing any good for the team by not wanting to win every single game. | ||
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Nedereden
777 Posts
On March 12 2014 23:33 Waxangel wrote: Wats that mean? Its refreshing to have some one come out and write something so gut-wrenchingly REAL. Only people who've gone through similar things know how it is. And most just choose to say "it doesn't matter' thus trying to trivialize something we should deal with head on. Kinda reminds me of some of MightyAtom Hyungs blogs... Here we have someone with the gumption to actually wear his heart on his sleeve. I'm gonna say that from my side if Fluffs gonna lead Liquid with even half the balls it took to put this blog out hes got my full support. God knows Liquid needs this shock therapy. GO FLUFF! | ||
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Count9
China10928 Posts
I've shown absolutely no leadership qualities for the past 4 months. In fact, I've shown I'd rather hurt the team and have them fail so I could try to assume leadership than work as a team under another leader because I think I'm the best person to lead the team. Despite all of that, I should be leader and because I'm not leader we're losing. If I'm not made leader I'm leaving the team and fuck over my teammates and the (albeit small) chance we get invited to TI. LGD changed their players after invites were announced and still got a qualifier invite so it's fine to kick this clown. I don't care so much about performing in game at a specific point in time since I think potential is more important but actively hoping your team would lose is an absolutely unacceptable attitude and definitely affected his play on a subconscious level. Worse, it doesn't look like it will change unless the selfish brat gets his way. Get rid of him and whoever else wants to follow him out and then get people who actually enjoy playing dota with each other for TL. Good luck finding 4 teammates who won't care as soon as you start doing badly they get flamed in a blog. (what's sneyking been doing?) | ||
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suicideyear
Ivory Coast3016 Posts
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NeThZOR
South Africa7387 Posts
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beesinyoface
2450 Posts
On March 12 2014 13:55 Liquid`FLUFF wrote: We have Wayto doing drafts now and he hasn't really had a chance to prove his ability as a captain, however It didn't take me long to see that history will repeat itself again after our last LAN. I'm going to fail and I'm going to fail hard, you're going my way or the high way and at some point we will realize our true potential as a team. I know it's been said already in the previous pages, but sentences like this really, really make me scratch my head. Before TL 2.0 you were playing pretty damn well at support and it was true Mike was the weakest link on the team. With 2.0 though, I honestly think the tables have turned. It's true that WTS needs a bit of advice/direction on support since he's more comfortable with the carry role (based on his stream,) but I think you've honestly missed the point where your play has been quite honestly terrible for many weeks now. There's a ton of things that could come from a blog like this, but I honestly don't see them going in a favorable direction. At the end of the day, someone who sits idly by "hoping" the team fails so you can push your agenda in some weird aggressive email airing your dirty laundry is just childish, and I don't think you're a proper fit for the team going forward. | ||
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woojaekeem
United States524 Posts
At the end of the day Fluff's blog only has empty, melodramatic rhetoric and legitimate, or delusional, notions of grandeur and success. That's not enough to be a leader. A leader doesn't feel the need to publicly vent or rant on private issues without first addressing problems internally to their full extent. You don't couple underlying threats of departure if things don't go your way with demands for the right to lead. The right to lead is earned, not taken. It's willfully given by those that believe in you. Someone doesn't have to be a close friend of yours to respect you in a professional manner, or to believe in your capacity to be a captain. Fluff talks about his experience on FIRE and other teams as justification for him taking the reins here, but at the end of the day those teams are not liquid, and those players were not TC, Bulba, Wayto and Qojqva. Imagine if you were TC or Wayto and you woke up to Fluff demanding control and leadership, whilst also decrying and showing complete lack of faith in your ability to draft, captain or serve as an in-game leader. That kind of action only sows mistrust, insecurity and resentment. A true leader knows how to benevolently address everyone's concerns without forcing the issue by putting it in the public eye. Fluff puts on an act of blaming himself and taking accountability throughout the blog, but at the end of the day it's just a pitch for why he thinks he should be, and always was, the best captain for the team. If you were truly meant to lead you wouldn't have to make a pitch like that, and you wouldn't have remained quiet for so long. You would have inspired, elevated and supported your teammates when the going started to get tough, rather than publicly exposing things they may not want in the open for the sake of your own emotional satisfaction. Lead with actions of unity and guidance. Don't let yourself succumb to this kind of petulant emotional maelstrom. Any man who must say, "I am the king" is no true king. | ||
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Count9
China10928 Posts
On March 13 2014 00:29 beesinyoface wrote: I know it's been said already in the previous pages, but sentences like this really, really make me scratch my head. Before TL 2.0 you were playing pretty damn well at support and it was true Mike was the weakest link on the team. With 2.0 though, I honestly think the tables have turned. It's true that WTS needs a bit of advice/direction on support since he's more comfortable with the carry role (based on his stream,) but I think you've honestly missed the point where your play has been quite honestly terrible for many weeks now. There's a ton of things that could come from a blog like this, but I honestly don't see them going in a favorable direction. At the end of the day, someone who sits idly by "hoping" the team fails so you can push your agenda in some weird aggressive email airing your dirty laundry is just childish, and I don't think you're a proper fit for the team going forward. Let's be honest here, he didn't "see" anything. He was, from the onset, convinced wayto isn't as good a leader as himself and actively hoped they lose to "prove" it. The guy was an ok player on complexity where they were the best na team when na didn't have a scene. His ego exceeds his ability by miles. | ||
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Yasawa
Belgium5 Posts
When I played with bigger names I didn't feel trusted or respected enough to lead (i.e. had a hard time getting people to listen to me and respect me due to my introverted kind of nature) and if someone else was leading I mostly wouldn't agree with that persons game plan / approach to the game and it created an internal clash that will lead to bad results. It seems this is exactly what has happened to Team Liquid. I think the mistake here is FLUFF staying with the team for too long. Either he would have had to restructure the team the way he wanted to after TI3 or he should have left the team. Now he's stuck in this impossible situation where he is hindering himself and his team from ultimate success. It's too late to fix now because TI4 invites will be going out soon and a roster change would probably disqualify the team so it's really a lose-lose situation for both the team and FLUFF. The best thing would probably be for FLUFF to sit this one out and come back after TI4 with his own team while Liquid find someone more suited to replace him. Anyway, always interesting to hear a pro players inner thoughts and what's really going on within a team. EDIT: Read bits of "The Clockwork Project" now and gotta say I am even more like you than I thought. I, too, fought and still fight depression and anxiety. I, too, dropped out of school for a period of time because of depression. Suicidal thoughts are always in the back of my head. I also don't care about wealth at all and have a very strict standard that I hold myself, but also other people, to, which essentially means people very rarely live up to my expectations and that has been a major problem in my life. I wish I could meet you one day, I bet we'd be good friends and have that instant connection seeing how much alike we are. We'd probably have plenty of constructive and profound conversations about this and that. Oh well, too bad I'm a european nobody in the dota scene ^^ | ||
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wuhan_clan
United States5609 Posts
It's obvious that TC in the leadership role wasn't cutting it. But that doesn't mean you go around being passive aggressive and talking shit about the team behind its back. Why the fuck does this blog even exist? It's like this is the first time anyone's ever had to be a part of a team in their life. Fluff needs to GO TALK TO HIS TEAM instead of being a whiny emo little kid feeling sorry for himself !!! The guy may have valid points when talking about his teams approach to Dota, but if he wants to lead, this is the wrong way to go about it and the wrong attitude to have. Keep in mind, he voluntarily gave up captain to TC who despite not being good, still showed results leading the team. TL's core problems have absolutely nothing to do with Dota. It's about taking accountability, responsibility, and just doing the right thing for the team, even if it means personal sacrifices. This goes for everyone, not just Fluff. Everyone needs to commit to each other 100%, whether they are the leader or not. It's all about growing up and becoming a man. There's still time to cut the bullshit and turn this shitty situation around before TI4. But they need to communicate to each other that they even want to turn it around and are willing to do whatever it takes. Otherwise they should just disband right now instead of wasting everyone's time. [edit] It's teams like TL who can really benefit from having a team house with a dedicated coach/manager. It seems like if they aren't forced to be around each other, problems simply never get addressed ever. Kinda like how long distance relationships almost never work. | ||
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TheDuke42
United States5 Posts
On March 12 2014 15:03 Caladbolg wrote: Maybe the team is just full of too many "egos." But hey that's what people say about DK, Na'Vi, etc. and they're still able to function really well. " They are able to function and at a high level because in navi's case they are all big egos and great players but they all are behind puppy as a leader, DK is behind their leader and that leader makes the calls(note can't say who their leader is but you can tell) ~TheDuke4233~ liquid Fighting | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On March 13 2014 00:30 woojaekeem wrote: A real leader would take some kind of decisive action, whether forcing some kind of private, internal discussion on the issue at hand or making in-team adjustments to their playstyle and methodology. At the end of the day Fluff's blog only has empty, melodramatic rhetoric and legitimate, or delusional, notions of grandeur and success. That's not enough to be a leader. A leader doesn't feel the need to publicly vent or rant on private issues without first addressing problems internally to their full extent. You don't couple underlying threats of departure if things don't go your way with demands for the right to lead. The right to lead is earned, not taken. It's willfully given by those that believe in you. Someone doesn't have to be a close friend of yours to respect you in a professional manner, or to believe in your capacity to be a captain. Fluff talks about his experience on FIRE and other teams as justification for him taking the reins here, but at the end of the day those teams are not liquid, and those players were not TC, Bulba, Wayto and Qojqva. Imagine if you were TC or Wayto and you woke up to Fluff demanding control and leadership, whilst also decrying and showing complete lack of faith in your ability to draft, captain or serve as an in-game leader. That kind of action only sows mistrust, insecurity and resentment. A true leader knows how to benevolently address everyone's concerns without forcing the issue by putting it in the public eye. Fluff puts on an act of blaming himself and taking accountability throughout the blog, but at the end of the day it's just a pitch for why he thinks he should be, and always was, the best captain for the team. If you were truly meant to lead you wouldn't have to make a pitch like that, and you wouldn't have remained quiet for so long. You would have inspired, elevated and supported your teammates when the going started to get tough, rather than publicly exposing things they may not want in the open for the sake of your own emotional satisfaction. Lead with actions of unity and guidance. Don't let yourself succumb to this kind of petulant emotional maelstrom. Any man who must say, "I am the king" is no true king. I dislike all this talk about some kind of transcendent leader. The notion that you're either born a leader or not is such a moviescript reality. This Captain America'esque always knows what to do leader doesn't exist in real life, as Fluff has argued in his previous blogs, there's just people who rise to the occasion. I know it's popular to paint progamers as gods in their game's realm, but they continue to exist in reality. There's no amount of dedication that would allow them to train for days without sleep, no amount of will that can force a team to perform or a person to suck it up when he's had enough. This is the reaon why everyone hates the Korean Starcraft interviews, because there's always these impersonal political answers that we know are bullshit. Yet when a Liquid player opens up there's this negative backlash, why? Because the reality of the situation isn't in line with the perceived Liquid heroes? In reality this has been going on for more than a year, maybe this is the only way to break the equilibrium of political let's not say anything and pretend we're on our way to win TI4. | ||
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HeadlessWonder
United States1096 Posts
Plus, We have Wayto doing drafts now and he hasn't really had a chance to prove his ability as a captain, however It didn't take me long to see that history will repeat itself again after our last LAN. Imagine if/when Wayto reads that. I couldn't be on a team with someone willing to openly say things like that. Publicly talking bad about teammates is being a bad teammate, and not a quality a team should be looking for in a captain. | ||
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woojaekeem
United States524 Posts
On March 13 2014 01:06 Saechiis wrote: I dislike all this talk about some kind of transcendent leader. The notion that you're either born a leader or not is such a moviescript reality. This Captain America'esque always knows what to do leader doesn't exist in real life, as Fluff has argued in his previous blogs, there's just people who rise to the occasion. I know it's popular to paint progamers as gods in their game's realm, but they continue to exist in reality. There's no amount of dedication that would allow them to train for days without sleep, no amount of will that can force a team to perform or a person to suck it up when he's had enough. This is the reaon why everyone hates the Korean Starcraft interviews, because there's always these impersonal political answers that we know are bullshit. Yet when a Liquid player opens up there's this negative backlash, why? Because the reality of the situation isn't in line with the perceived Liquid heroes? In reality this has been going on for more than a year, maybe this is the only way to break the equilibrium of political let's not say anything and pretend we're on our way to win TI4. There's a huge distinction between being honest with the public and airing dirty laundry without the rest of your team's consent. I never said that I expected them to be perfect, but publicly undermining your current captain and teammates while lionizing yourself is unacceptable. It's not about being a transcendent leader. It's about having the ability to address your team's interests and gain their respect without exacerbating the whole situation as a result of your need to satisfy some childish need for public catharsis. No one's asking Fluff to be the Nelson Mandela of Dota, but he should at least have the tact to understand basic principles of leadership if he's going to demand authority. | ||
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Geisterkarle
Germany3257 Posts
I was "always" wondering. I read in many interviews with other DOTA2 players, that Fluff helped them and gave advice and so on. With that in mind I always thought very high of Fluff and his skill and knowledge of the game. But just a few days/week back this "Behind the Horse" documentation was released. And Fluff was somehow laid back and quiet for my interpretation ... I imagined him quite different! This post now is clearing this up - for good or bad .... I'm curious, what happens in the next few weeks/months! | ||
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