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On September 10 2013 12:32 sam!zdat wrote:
I tend to think the pharisees were a bunch of obnoxious scholastics
You also probably think that Jesus was a radical communist hippie, what with his forcing the money changers out of the temple, feeding the masses, and Sermon on the Mount.
But the Pharisees were the real people's choice. They were just trying to help out the common man, reclaim Jewish independence, and return to a godly way of life that the Sadducees had largely abandoned in their decadence.
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nah, jesus was just yr typical apocalyptic prophet, the sermon on the mount was written a lot later. The money changers thing is most likely true though and I think that's awesome, go jesus
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I don't doubt that the Pharisees were trying to do that, but they were misguided (by who I don't know) and thought that strictly following the letter of the law was the best way to serve God. Being "the people's choice" doesn't sound so hot either considering what the people did to Jesus. I guess we all as humans have problems.
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On September 10 2013 12:11 IgnE wrote:
Which laws were they twisting? Didn't Jesus supercede the old laws? That doesn't necessarily imply that the old laws were being corrupted.
As a single example, the Scribes and Pharasees would take laws such as "Honor the Sabbath day to keep it holy" and turn it into a legalistic thing such as the Jews would not be allowed to walk outside a certain radius of their house. They also deemed it "work" to do the mission of the church, which it obviously is not. This is why they had a problem with Jesus healing on the Sabbath, which in my mind is obviously corrupting and adding to the Law given by God.
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On September 10 2013 13:31 slowbacontron wrote:
I don't doubt that the Pharisees were trying to do that, but they were misguided (by who I don't know) and thought that strictly following the letter of the law was the best way to serve God. Being "the people's choice" doesn't sound so hot either considering what the people did to Jesus. I guess we all as humans have problems.
They were innovators man. They believed in an oral tradition and debate of legal principles. They were about living the law, not simply empty gestures like the aristocratic Sadducees. The Pharisees get a bad rap by the Marxist reinterpreters of Jesus. It's just too bad that Paul didn't get around to vindicating them in any of his letters.
On September 10 2013 13:19 sam!zdat wrote:
nah, jesus was just yr typical apocalyptic prophet, the sermon on the mount was written a lot later. The money changers thing is most likely true though and I think that's awesome, go jesus
Marxists putting words in Jesus's mouth. They must have written that eye of the needle stuff too.
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On September 10 2013 13:43 Janaan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2013 12:11 IgnE wrote:
Which laws were they twisting? Didn't Jesus supercede the old laws? That doesn't necessarily imply that the old laws were being corrupted. As a single example, the Scribes and Pharasees would take laws such as "Honor the Sabbath day to keep it holy" and turn it into a legalistic thing such as the Jews would not be allowed to walk outside a certain radius of their house. They also deemed it "work" to do the mission of the church, which it obviously is not. This is why they had a problem with Jesus healing on the Sabbath, which in my mind is obviously corrupting and adding to the Law given by God.
They really had a problem with Jesus claiming he could forgive sins, because only God can forgive sins, and they did not know who he was. I'm sure if you saw someone forgiving sins you would react the same way.
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ha, I love that eye of the needle thing. Only most christians think it means 'all things are possible with god' with is a load of bs, jesus clearly just didn't like rich people
what should I read abt the pharisees igne
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The Bible, it being the word of God.
If you performed a little exegesis on the eye of the needle thing you would find out that it actually referred to a gate in the city wall. The "eye of the needle" was a gate that was opened after the main gate closed at night, and was smaller than the city gate. So Jesus was saying that rich people have to go through a smaller gate to get to heaven. Probably because it was for members only.
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On September 10 2013 14:06 IgnE wrote:
The Bible, it being the word of God.
If you performed a little exegesis on the eye of the needle thing you would find out that it actually referred to a gate in the city wall. The "eye of the needle" was a gate that was opened after the main gate closed at night, and was smaller than the city gate. So Jesus was saying that rich people have to go through a smaller gate to get to heaven. Probably because it was for members only.
Out of curiosity, do you have a source for that? I've heard that "eye of the needle" explanation a million times (usually with something about how camels couldn't go through unless they crouched somehow, so you had to take all the bags and goods off the camel so it could get through the gate), but nobody ever seems to know what the source is. It's always "I heard it from someone."
Edit: This is not a criticism of you, and I don't have any particular reason to believe it's false. I just always wonder what that tidbit actually came from.
I would very much like to know why OP apparently thinks being Christian means we ought not to look for life on Mars. Seems like such a non sequitur to me, or maybe I misunderstood the passage.
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On September 10 2013 14:06 IgnE wrote:
The Bible, it being the word of God.
If you performed a little exegesis on the eye of the needle thing you would find out that it actually referred to a gate in the city wall. The "eye of the needle" was a gate that was opened after the main gate closed at night, and was smaller than the city gate. So Jesus was saying that rich people have to go through a smaller gate to get to heaven. Probably because it was for members only.
Or that little humility does not hurt any one of us.
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I don't know where it came from, it's just what I heard from my teachers. But you know what guys? Jesus just spoke in riddles sometimes. But luckily, as Matthew 10:23-26 says.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Anything is possible.
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Without the "eye of the needle gate" explanation, that bit makes it sound like virtually all rich people are sinners/amoral/going to hell (and rich people specifically, not just everyone in general), but technically it's possible for rich people to make it to heaven. Almost none do, though, because their wealth is so corrupting.
That idea is in stark contrast with a lot of western/American Christians' beliefs, though. A good portion of them are ardent capitalists, some even more so than they're Christians.
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And why would God say that the rich can't get into heaven? God rewards those who praise and serve him. Does not Paul tell us in Galatians 6 : 7
Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.
And does not Jeremiah 17 : 10 tell us
I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds
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On September 10 2013 14:23 ChristianS wrote:
Without the "eye of the needle gate" explanation, that bit makes it sound like virtually all rich people are sinners/amoral/going to hell (and rich people specifically, not just everyone in general), but technically it's possible for rich people to make it to heaven. Almost none do, though, because their wealth is so corrupting.
That idea is in stark contrast with a lot of western/American Christians' beliefs, though. A good portion of them are ardent capitalists, some even more so than they're Christians.
Even with the "gate" explanation, which may be unfounded, it's not saying that all rich people are going to hell, rather the focus is on God being able to do the impossible, including making rich people go to heaven.
And I don't see how capitalism is related to being corruptly wealthy. I'm guessing you're going off the whole prosperity gospel thing, where some Christians believe that because they are Christian, they are guaranteed wealth in this life based on the amount of faith they have. But not only does the Bible never promise that, but also rich Christians don't necessarily need to be corrupt. Given the example of Job (and David and Solomon, perhaps worse examples) in the Bible, we can see that fabulous wealth doesn't equate to definite massive amounts of sinning and corruptness.
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The idea isn't that heaven discriminates against rich people. The idea is that wealth is such a corrupting force that almost no one who possesses it could get into heaven. You could imagine the same being said of people who abuse drugs – it's almost impossible for them to get their life together, find Christ, and move on to live a better life, but through God anything is possible (indicating that it's unlikely, but it could happen).
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On September 10 2013 14:10 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2013 14:06 IgnE wrote:
The Bible, it being the word of God.
If you performed a little exegesis on the eye of the needle thing you would find out that it actually referred to a gate in the city wall. The "eye of the needle" was a gate that was opened after the main gate closed at night, and was smaller than the city gate. So Jesus was saying that rich people have to go through a smaller gate to get to heaven. Probably because it was for members only. I would very much like to know why OP apparently thinks being Christian means we ought not to look for life on Mars. Seems like such a non sequitur to me, or maybe I misunderstood the passage.
As mentioned to another, I'm currently revising it. I created that blog in a matter of 3-4 hours with a different point I was trying to get across, but it came out confusing and in the form of two or more arguments that don't compliment each other. So forgive me on that, I'm almost done fixing it... i'll post here when it's up.
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Also guys, as far as the "rich man" topic goes, it's pretty basic. The love of money is where the corruption lies. Money itself is not bad, nor is being rich for that matter. When you find your life, hope, and security in money and possessions, it can be very hard to give that up which is what Jesus was calling the rich man to do.
Mark 10:17-25
"As Jesus was starting out his way to Jerusalem, a man came running up to him, knelt down and asked, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked. "Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments: 'You must not murder. You must not commit adultery. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. You must not cheat anyone. Honor your father and mother.'"
"Teacher," the man replied, "I've obeyed all these commandments since I was young." Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. "There is still one thing you haven't done," he told him. "Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
At this the man's face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.
Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God!" This amazed them. But Jesus said again, "Dear children, it is very hard* to enter the Kingdom of God. In fact, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!"
In the paraphrase below, it reads the following:
This man wanted to be sure he would get eternal life, so he asked what he could do. He said he'd never once broken any of the laws Jesus mentioned, and perhaps he had even kept the Pharisees' additional regulations as well. But Jesus lovingly broke the man's pride with a challenge that brought out his true motives: "Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor." This challenge exposed the barrier that could keep this man out of the Kingdom: his love of money. Money represented his pride of accomplishment and self-effort. Ironically, his attitude made him unable to keep the first commandment: to let nothing be more important than God. He could not meet the one requirement Jesus gave-to turn his whole heart and life over to God.
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I don't think that's what Jesus was saying. He was calling the man out, saying he was a liar. Jesus wouldn't ask a rich person to hand over their wealth that God has blessed them with. I believe the story has Jesus call the man out, asking him to atone for his misbegotten wealth, and the man realizes that Jesus knows his falsehoods. Otherwise the story just doesn't make sense.
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There's no indication that the rich man's wealth is misbegotten. And Jesus certainly wanted him to hand over if not his wealth, his heart, which judging by the rich man's reaction was still in "the world" or not dedicated to God.
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It has to be misbegotten, otherwise Jesus singling him out is capricious and unjust. If he were truly righteous and followed God's laws, he would already have been following Jesus. Jesus knows that he is not, and that he came to Jesus in front of the crowd as a kind of public relations stunt. He wanted everyone to think he was good and right with the Lord, when, in fact, he was not. This man is unique. If he were meant to stand as a generic rich man, representing the class of rich men, then why would Jesus mark him out? Especially when you say he was otherwise a godly man and could be said to be following in the Lord's footsteps? No. Jesus calls him out and asks him to give up his wealth that he did not deserve to have (either through cheating others or some other unrighteous deed) because He knows that the man is ungodly and needs to atone for his sins.
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EPT
